Ask HN: Do you want to be a billionaire?
9 comments
IMHO:
Reaching a level of success can still be "suffering" if that success is built on the suffering of others.
So, while yes I'd certainly love to be a Billionaire in theory, I have a hard time thinking of how that could come about in a way that wouldn't compound and produce more suffering in the world. My own, and others'.
Reaching a level of success can still be "suffering" if that success is built on the suffering of others.
So, while yes I'd certainly love to be a Billionaire in theory, I have a hard time thinking of how that could come about in a way that wouldn't compound and produce more suffering in the world. My own, and others'.
How does earning money cause others suffering?
The difficulty of having an entire business that earns you a billion while paying a living wage, let alone the supply chain. See Apple's efforts to be green (eg mercury free in 2010-ish) but Foxconns' suicides.
Are you talking about the suicide rate that's lower than the general Chinese population?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides#cite_note-eco...
Does Facebook exploit any of its workers? (I'm not being rhetorical, I truly haven't looked into it)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides#cite_note-eco...
Does Facebook exploit any of its workers? (I'm not being rhetorical, I truly haven't looked into it)
Oh, fair enough. I just believed the media.
As for Facebook I haven't heard anything about non-US workers, barely anything about non-tech workers except that painter who took stock.
As for Facebook I haven't heard anything about non-US workers, barely anything about non-tech workers except that painter who took stock.
Not given the ethical cost required to get anywhere near there, no.
Though "Do you want to" makes it sound like it's as much of a choice as "Do you want to move to another country?" (Which is itself a rather restricted thing)
Though "Do you want to" makes it sound like it's as much of a choice as "Do you want to move to another country?" (Which is itself a rather restricted thing)
What are the ethical costs?
Is 37signals really a "lifestyle company"? Sure the founders are not billionaires, but I think with the (what I assume are) 8-figure revenues they must have, they'd be considered more than "lifestyle".
It depends on how far into the 8 figures they have made it, their headcount, net income and their stated goals, in my opinion.
I have worked a lot with SMB market (as well as tech startups) and there are a lot of smaller 7 and lower 8 figure type businesses where owners travel for significant chunks of time and the business keeps running. That to me is a lifestyle business, as the owner(s) aren't required to be sitting there everyday. At the same time most that I have met that have this luxury aren't going to be going public or seeking outside investments etc (nor could they likely).
The first one I met I thought was a huge anomaly but after now having done a lot of SMB work in the past 6-7 years, I have found a lot more of these types of businesses around the US then I ever thought. They aren't usually glamorous nor tech focused but they are "lifestyle" businesses in my opinion because the owner can really set his/her schedule and doesn't have to be there daily or worry about income. I also have seen a fair number of these businesses are family owned and may go back 1-2 generations.
So not sure what 37Signals founder goals are, but they seem like the grow slow (relatively speaking) and grow long, versus the typical tech company that is trying to do it all in 3-5 years using OPM.
I have worked a lot with SMB market (as well as tech startups) and there are a lot of smaller 7 and lower 8 figure type businesses where owners travel for significant chunks of time and the business keeps running. That to me is a lifestyle business, as the owner(s) aren't required to be sitting there everyday. At the same time most that I have met that have this luxury aren't going to be going public or seeking outside investments etc (nor could they likely).
The first one I met I thought was a huge anomaly but after now having done a lot of SMB work in the past 6-7 years, I have found a lot more of these types of businesses around the US then I ever thought. They aren't usually glamorous nor tech focused but they are "lifestyle" businesses in my opinion because the owner can really set his/her schedule and doesn't have to be there daily or worry about income. I also have seen a fair number of these businesses are family owned and may go back 1-2 generations.
So not sure what 37Signals founder goals are, but they seem like the grow slow (relatively speaking) and grow long, versus the typical tech company that is trying to do it all in 3-5 years using OPM.
Could you give more insight onto these types of companies? Employees, industries, products, revenue/profit, everything. They sound interesting.
Sure. Like I said most aren't glamorous nor necessarily tech in their core nature. I know some of the rough FTE counts, but also some of these used quite a bit of part time help.
Electrical Contractor - ~$14M/Annual revenue, less than 30 FTE's. Honestly a couple variations of this too around, one was a regional HVAC supply company etc.
Small boat manufacturer - ~$25M annual revenue, less than 60 FTE's (IIRC) Family owned, started only about 10 years ago. Owners worked their asses off until the past few years (I think he said when he crossed the $18M mark as that was some magic number for them).
Family that has purchased many Franchise stores from Texas to Virginia and Florida - ~$8M annual rev and they never work in a store other than when it opens to help set the tone. They visit them often though. I have no clue the count of employees they have, but in the holding company we did work for it was only about 4-5.
Plumbing contractor - ~$9M annually, they started as a pure service contractor and then also opened up regional distribution of supplies. Supply side is the higher growth side for them, even through the real estate market stupidity. I guess everyone needs a toilet that works and pipes that don't leak though, so makes some sense.
Financial Auditing Software - ~$14M annually, they wrote custom software 15-18 years ago (and keep updating it) that analyzes loan risks and compliance for underwriters. Around a dozen FTE's, owner would rarely wear shoes when he came to the office, always made me laugh.
Consumer wearables (shirts, hats, backpacks etc) - ~$11M annually, < 25 FTE's. Actually a few of these types of business we have worked for, but they seem to come and go more than others, so my sense is sustainability doesn't seem to be really easy in that market place.
Some of these numbers are old and I know at least 2 of these are likely doing considerably better now. The things I noted when I was doing work for these and others is how they structured their companies. They always focused on hiring people to manage things for them and focused on training the leadership. They never made the business all about them, maybe to help get it off the ground but not after. That lets them pick and choose what they do and allows them the freedom of the "lifestyle" business. I probably have done work with 25-30 over the past 7 years that would fit into this category now. I can't say I have seen too many with > $25M in revenue, as that seems to be when people start selling out or they have to jump back in 100% and push to a new level (just my observation/guess).
Also, in talking to them the other common theme is it was never "lifestyle" in the early days, it was only after they hit their magic tipping number or a certain number of years of profitability at a certain level that it became "lifestyle" for them.
Electrical Contractor - ~$14M/Annual revenue, less than 30 FTE's. Honestly a couple variations of this too around, one was a regional HVAC supply company etc.
Small boat manufacturer - ~$25M annual revenue, less than 60 FTE's (IIRC) Family owned, started only about 10 years ago. Owners worked their asses off until the past few years (I think he said when he crossed the $18M mark as that was some magic number for them).
Family that has purchased many Franchise stores from Texas to Virginia and Florida - ~$8M annual rev and they never work in a store other than when it opens to help set the tone. They visit them often though. I have no clue the count of employees they have, but in the holding company we did work for it was only about 4-5.
Plumbing contractor - ~$9M annually, they started as a pure service contractor and then also opened up regional distribution of supplies. Supply side is the higher growth side for them, even through the real estate market stupidity. I guess everyone needs a toilet that works and pipes that don't leak though, so makes some sense.
Financial Auditing Software - ~$14M annually, they wrote custom software 15-18 years ago (and keep updating it) that analyzes loan risks and compliance for underwriters. Around a dozen FTE's, owner would rarely wear shoes when he came to the office, always made me laugh.
Consumer wearables (shirts, hats, backpacks etc) - ~$11M annually, < 25 FTE's. Actually a few of these types of business we have worked for, but they seem to come and go more than others, so my sense is sustainability doesn't seem to be really easy in that market place.
Some of these numbers are old and I know at least 2 of these are likely doing considerably better now. The things I noted when I was doing work for these and others is how they structured their companies. They always focused on hiring people to manage things for them and focused on training the leadership. They never made the business all about them, maybe to help get it off the ground but not after. That lets them pick and choose what they do and allows them the freedom of the "lifestyle" business. I probably have done work with 25-30 over the past 7 years that would fit into this category now. I can't say I have seen too many with > $25M in revenue, as that seems to be when people start selling out or they have to jump back in 100% and push to a new level (just my observation/guess).
Also, in talking to them the other common theme is it was never "lifestyle" in the early days, it was only after they hit their magic tipping number or a certain number of years of profitability at a certain level that it became "lifestyle" for them.
All the rich people I know IRL have businesses like this. None are in websites or startups. I know millionaires who don't have an email address. I wish I had gone into one of these fields, the web feels like the most saturated place on the planet right now.
Almost all the wealthy people I know did it through a combination of real estate and small businesses too. Only a few came directly from anything technology based.
I don't necessarily think the web is saturated it is more that the tech media and places like HN have a small but very active community and so things seem very crowded. I personally intentionally sought out a lot of the traditional companies to consult with because I knew they have been underserved and frankly not well appreciated by the general tech community. Sure, lots of SaaS solutions get built but many times they are 65% of what the company needs etc, and with a little extra help and integration work we can give them a cost effective, 98% solution that they can live with and helps them make more money. It comes with challenges though too as these same small businesses can be a challenge to work with at times more than a startup or an enterprise client, so its not a panacea by any means.
Personally, I have been diversifying for years and working to acquire real estate and work in markets that have little to do with technology as a core. Not because I don't love the tech industry, I just am playing the odds, diversifying and doing stuff that I love so it all works out for me. Plus something appeals to me at some level not to be behind a computer day in and day out the rest of my life.
I don't necessarily think the web is saturated it is more that the tech media and places like HN have a small but very active community and so things seem very crowded. I personally intentionally sought out a lot of the traditional companies to consult with because I knew they have been underserved and frankly not well appreciated by the general tech community. Sure, lots of SaaS solutions get built but many times they are 65% of what the company needs etc, and with a little extra help and integration work we can give them a cost effective, 98% solution that they can live with and helps them make more money. It comes with challenges though too as these same small businesses can be a challenge to work with at times more than a startup or an enterprise client, so its not a panacea by any means.
Personally, I have been diversifying for years and working to acquire real estate and work in markets that have little to do with technology as a core. Not because I don't love the tech industry, I just am playing the odds, diversifying and doing stuff that I love so it all works out for me. Plus something appeals to me at some level not to be behind a computer day in and day out the rest of my life.
I dont think there would be any difference in my lifestyle between 50 million in the bank and 5 billion. It would be cool to be able to donate hundreds of millions of dollars to charities though.
The 37signals people probably got where they are via long stretches of living the consultant life style (since they were consultants). Before things scaled, they weren't working Ferris-Four-Hour-Work-Weeks but grinding for clients.
I've been thinking about the next company I try to build a lot lately. I don't really care about being a billionaire nor do I care about emulating Zuckerberg...it's too late for me to get admitted to Harvard, much less drop out. But winding up with a fuck-you money sized exit would be nice and what I've come to believe is that it's not appreciably more work to build a $2 billion company than a $2 million one. I'll probably have to work my ass off either way, and there's still a lot of risk that either winds up a $0 million company in the end.
People can work decades to build a company that makes them a multi-thousandaire. Scale comes from businesses that scale not in proportion to hard work.
I've been thinking about the next company I try to build a lot lately. I don't really care about being a billionaire nor do I care about emulating Zuckerberg...it's too late for me to get admitted to Harvard, much less drop out. But winding up with a fuck-you money sized exit would be nice and what I've come to believe is that it's not appreciably more work to build a $2 billion company than a $2 million one. I'll probably have to work my ass off either way, and there's still a lot of risk that either winds up a $0 million company in the end.
People can work decades to build a company that makes them a multi-thousandaire. Scale comes from businesses that scale not in proportion to hard work.
> Or something like patio (kalzumeus.com)... solopreneur. I think I read he works 10 hours a week but stills makes an impact?
Let's not give in to SV newspeak where running a business means "making an impact".
Let's not give in to SV newspeak where running a business means "making an impact".
Creating a product or service which people find valuable enough to purchase is 'making an impact'.
Really? So literally every business activity (e.g. running a small grocery store on the corner) is 'making an impact'? For me, this term implicitly means making SIGNIFICANT impact, not just any impact.
Yes. There was no prior mention of magnitude. I benefit vey greatly from my local grocer, s/he provides with quality goods at a reasonable price -- making an impact on me.
Now, how do you draw the line with 'significance'?
Now, how do you draw the line with 'significance'?
I think it's purely intuitive concept, with no clear definition. But without it, literally every particle in this universe is making an impact.
In other words, it's a hazy and easily misinterpret-able term. No, defining a prerequisite/s instead of relying on an general idea of 'intuitiveness' would be a more appropriate approach.
Everything 'makes an impact' the magnitude of the impact makes all the difference.
Everything 'makes an impact' the magnitude of the impact makes all the difference.
Well not only does he build quality products but he's an esteemed member of the mISV and HN community. His blog is popular and very educational.
I don't think many people will outright say on the record they want to be billionaires on here because then it looks like they're just in it for the money. There's a stigma against wanting to be rich in this industry over just 'passionate'.
I wonder how many people say internally to themselves they want to be like one of those people, but are willing to put in the work to get there. How many people are really willing to make the sacrifices to be at the top.
I wonder how many people say internally to themselves they want to be like one of those people, but are willing to put in the work to get there. How many people are really willing to make the sacrifices to be at the top.
I do want and I;m putting the time, effort and thinking into it to be a billionaire. At the same time I'm absolutely enjoying the route towards it and really like how I spend most of my time just working in the right direction.
> Do you want to be a billionaire?
Yes but it will never happen. I will never even see 1 million, unless economic collapse starting in Greece causes rampant inflation here.
Yes but it will never happen. I will never even see 1 million, unless economic collapse starting in Greece causes rampant inflation here.
Or do you want something like 37signals? More of a lifestyle company, with 4 day workweeks on the Summer. Jason Fried is influential in many circles.
Or something like patio (kalzumeus.com)... solopreneur. I think I read he works 10 hours a week but stills makes an impact?
Pluses and minuses to each.