Ask HN: How to hack relationships if you're gay?
26 comments
Work on cultivating your interest in other people - literally make an effort to figure people out, what makes them tick, how they became who they are or did something they find interesting. You'll have to make an effort to start small talk conversations but don't put pressure on yourself for them to blossom into friendships, that's something that happens but itself later on - and I'm sure it will happen. People like a good listener! I find fursuits a bit baffling, but certainly not boring, so don't be so hard on yourself.
It's good to have a solid job but it's good to maintain a vibrant outside life too - if you're working so much that you don't have time to make friends then you need to tweak your work-life balance a bit, not least because it might be gradually lowering your productivity.
It's good to have a solid job but it's good to maintain a vibrant outside life too - if you're working so much that you don't have time to make friends then you need to tweak your work-life balance a bit, not least because it might be gradually lowering your productivity.
I actually work two jobs right now. One's a day job with a two hour commute (each way), and I'm trying to help one of my friends start a business too. Only the first one pays.
I do need to spend more time on myself, but there are too many demands for my time right now :(
I do need to spend more time on myself, but there are too many demands for my time right now :(
It sounds like you want a relationship and you're not doing anything about it that works to get one.
There's currently no technology that lessens the fundamental barrier to meeting new people: fear. Online dating, singles events, subculture meetups -- if you see them as a guarantee of some people meeting you, they're snake oil. If you see them as what they are, just opportunities for you to overcome your fear of meeting new people, they'll bear (...) fruit.
Maybe you consider yourself quite outgoing and "not afraid" of talking to people. Well, the fear that stops you meeting new people who you end up with will get you in other ways: fear of intimacy, fear of believing someone likes you.
I bet, after you get into a relationship and you reflect on all the times you hung out with other people, you'll gradually realise there were plenty that liked you, and you just didn't see it, or act on it, at that time.
Whenever I break up, and I want someone new, I get out there and talk to people. A lot of people. Start conversation. This trains you into a certain energy level of relating to strangers, which then carries over into your interactions that are going to matter. The barrier of starting a conversation with people will seem less, because you'll be used to it more.
Also, you might be in a city which doesn't work to be gay. Some cities are more anti gay, go to one more permeable.
If you really don't want to take any effort, and you just want someone else to do all the work, then at least you have to give them an opportunity: get out there and do something where you meet a lot of people. Some of them will try to get close to you.
At the end of the day tho, the thing which works best is to be yourself. So maybe that work on yourself you've been delaying, might be time to get to it. The reason is because when you're yourself the people you meet and connect with are right for you, and also what you offer them is truly you. So if you don't even really know who that is supposed to be at this point, work that out. So maybe get the relationship with yourself first.
There's currently no technology that lessens the fundamental barrier to meeting new people: fear. Online dating, singles events, subculture meetups -- if you see them as a guarantee of some people meeting you, they're snake oil. If you see them as what they are, just opportunities for you to overcome your fear of meeting new people, they'll bear (...) fruit.
Maybe you consider yourself quite outgoing and "not afraid" of talking to people. Well, the fear that stops you meeting new people who you end up with will get you in other ways: fear of intimacy, fear of believing someone likes you.
I bet, after you get into a relationship and you reflect on all the times you hung out with other people, you'll gradually realise there were plenty that liked you, and you just didn't see it, or act on it, at that time.
Whenever I break up, and I want someone new, I get out there and talk to people. A lot of people. Start conversation. This trains you into a certain energy level of relating to strangers, which then carries over into your interactions that are going to matter. The barrier of starting a conversation with people will seem less, because you'll be used to it more.
Also, you might be in a city which doesn't work to be gay. Some cities are more anti gay, go to one more permeable.
If you really don't want to take any effort, and you just want someone else to do all the work, then at least you have to give them an opportunity: get out there and do something where you meet a lot of people. Some of them will try to get close to you.
At the end of the day tho, the thing which works best is to be yourself. So maybe that work on yourself you've been delaying, might be time to get to it. The reason is because when you're yourself the people you meet and connect with are right for you, and also what you offer them is truly you. So if you don't even really know who that is supposed to be at this point, work that out. So maybe get the relationship with yourself first.
> It sounds like you want a relationship and you're not doing anything about it that works to get one.
Yeah, but since I have no experience (and no one to talk to -- parents don't know I'm gay, for example), I don't know what works.
> I bet, after you get into a relationship and you reflect on all the times you hung out with other people, you'll gradually realise there were plenty that liked you, and you just didn't see it, or act on it, at that time.
I very rarely meet anyone who's openly gay; when I do, they're taken.
Also, it should probably be worth mentioning, I'm not very attractive. I like to think I have a good personality, but I don't naturally attract peoples' interest.
Yeah, but since I have no experience (and no one to talk to -- parents don't know I'm gay, for example), I don't know what works.
> I bet, after you get into a relationship and you reflect on all the times you hung out with other people, you'll gradually realise there were plenty that liked you, and you just didn't see it, or act on it, at that time.
I very rarely meet anyone who's openly gay; when I do, they're taken.
Also, it should probably be worth mentioning, I'm not very attractive. I like to think I have a good personality, but I don't naturally attract peoples' interest.
We know that you don't know what works, that's why you're asking. It's ok for you not to know, and it's ok for me to point out your not knowing is the reason you're not where you want to be, as opposed to pretending there's something inherently wrong with you. The thing in your way is that you don't know, not that you're inherently wrong, and you can improve what you don't know. Correct, you don't know because you don't have experience, and it's not a chicken and egg problem because experience is not "successful experience" experience is trying, and you can hack that by your willingness to try.
People who have a lot of experience, tried a lot of times. Gradually they get more effective, yet it's like training neural networks, everything works better with a LOT of data.
So get out there and get experience. Try, try talking, try asking people out, try being at ease, and you will learn what works for you.
I'm still learning. One hack I used when I was nervous to talk to someone was, I knew what I wanted to say and just too scared to say it, so I'd count to three in my head an force myself to say it. Literally like jumping into water, just force the air out my lungs and mouth to work. Once you're over that first utterance, it's easier. And the more times you practise that, the less hard it is to do. And even better, the more times you listen to your feelings about what you want to say, the more those feelings give you cool stuff to say, and the more clearly you know them.
So there's plenty you can do, the important thing is just to start.
People who have a lot of experience, tried a lot of times. Gradually they get more effective, yet it's like training neural networks, everything works better with a LOT of data.
So get out there and get experience. Try, try talking, try asking people out, try being at ease, and you will learn what works for you.
I'm still learning. One hack I used when I was nervous to talk to someone was, I knew what I wanted to say and just too scared to say it, so I'd count to three in my head an force myself to say it. Literally like jumping into water, just force the air out my lungs and mouth to work. Once you're over that first utterance, it's easier. And the more times you practise that, the less hard it is to do. And even better, the more times you listen to your feelings about what you want to say, the more those feelings give you cool stuff to say, and the more clearly you know them.
So there's plenty you can do, the important thing is just to start.
Maybe one of the things in your way is how comfortable you are with who you are. If you're not openly looking for a relationship, how do you expect to find one?
I get that you just want to be accepted. As attractive an idea as that is -- it's an imposter. The only one whose acceptance or approval matters for you, is yours.
Anyone who doesn't accept you as who you are doesn't see you or isn't worth your attention. Anyone who does is no substitute for you being at ease with yourself.
Attractiveness is a social construct. It's based on things you can control. Confidence. How comfortable you are with who you are. How freely and capably you can express how you feel. It has little to do with appearance -- as long as you pay attention to basics like hygiene. A few things make it easier to be comfortable with who you are, and if you don't have those things and you're still comfortable your victory being at ease with yourself is just more attractive than someone who had to travel a shorter distance to get that ease.
You can hack attractiveness.
Also taking those steps, which are really for you and not for your parents or anyone else, to prove to yourself that you're comfortable with who you are -- will likely make it easier for you to find people who see who you are. This has two sides: either you can choose I don't need to come out to anyone because I don't need their approval, or I will come out to someone because I don't need their approval.
They're both okay ways of being comfortable with yourself, and it's up to you which works for you.
You got to like yourself first. If you don't like it, Change it. If you do like it, stick up for it.
I get that you just want to be accepted. As attractive an idea as that is -- it's an imposter. The only one whose acceptance or approval matters for you, is yours.
Anyone who doesn't accept you as who you are doesn't see you or isn't worth your attention. Anyone who does is no substitute for you being at ease with yourself.
Attractiveness is a social construct. It's based on things you can control. Confidence. How comfortable you are with who you are. How freely and capably you can express how you feel. It has little to do with appearance -- as long as you pay attention to basics like hygiene. A few things make it easier to be comfortable with who you are, and if you don't have those things and you're still comfortable your victory being at ease with yourself is just more attractive than someone who had to travel a shorter distance to get that ease.
You can hack attractiveness.
Also taking those steps, which are really for you and not for your parents or anyone else, to prove to yourself that you're comfortable with who you are -- will likely make it easier for you to find people who see who you are. This has two sides: either you can choose I don't need to come out to anyone because I don't need their approval, or I will come out to someone because I don't need their approval.
They're both okay ways of being comfortable with yourself, and it's up to you which works for you.
You got to like yourself first. If you don't like it, Change it. If you do like it, stick up for it.
When it comes to gay relationships, find some friends first. You need an in to the community, someone to invite you to the happy hour with their LGBT volunteer group or the queer short film festival. All you need is one or two people who are socially connected and get you started with gay events. You meet their friends, you go to the gay parties with them, you get familiar with the scene, and one thing leads to another from there. The odds are too slim in the world outside of gay centric events. You need to actively cultivate a gay community around you, because the tech life doesn't automatically lead to one on its own. This is doubly true if your outward presentation doesn't come off as 'gay' to other people. Making yourself visible to other gay people, even in subtle ways, makes a big difference. Take it from a straight-as-hell looking bi woman. I live in the city with the highest number of lesbian couples per capita, and I met no gay women for six months. Then, I went to one gay happy hour and met someone who told me about this lesbian tech conference, where I met a few more people, and now I hang out with gay people multiple times a week, and I have my first date since moving last year lined up for this weekend.
Search for gay events on facebook. Go gay hiking with a group from Meetup. Is there a StartOut chapter in your area? There is very probably a gay tech happy hour somewhere. Go to gay events until you feel like you're going to start barfing rainbows. Force yourself to do it. Look for gay networking on LinkedIn. Add a few people on Facebook (and check out their event feed, often there is gold in there). Make plans with two new potential friends. Once it starts going, it's easy to keep going.
Search for gay events on facebook. Go gay hiking with a group from Meetup. Is there a StartOut chapter in your area? There is very probably a gay tech happy hour somewhere. Go to gay events until you feel like you're going to start barfing rainbows. Force yourself to do it. Look for gay networking on LinkedIn. Add a few people on Facebook (and check out their event feed, often there is gold in there). Make plans with two new potential friends. Once it starts going, it's easy to keep going.
Do you read Dan Savage? http://www.thestranger.com/columns/savage-love
Your new city probably has a gay counseling phone line. If it doesn't, you need to move somewhere that does. You're the reason volunteers spend their time on those phones, so call them. They're gay, and they know where gay people hang out in your part of the world.
> Has anyone else found themselves in this situation? How did you get out of it?
By joining the university choral society, persistence, and a fair bit of luck. You'll probably do it differently.
> None of my friends are gay, nor do they know any gay people.
Let's do some probability theory. Trait X is randomly distributed across 10% of the population. (You can cut the Kinsey scale at different places. It's a round number, and it's true for some plausible definition of "gay".) The likelihood of your assertion is around P=0.9^(N²), where N is the typical number of friends you or one of your friends has. Go run hoc.
Case 1: P is above, say, 5%. This is the easy case. You could be right, and you just need to get out more. Stop reading HN and do it.
Case 2: P strains credibility. You might have to replace "are" with "say that they are". This is the hard case, because meeting more people who say that they're not gay won't help, and you need some different friends. A few things to consider at that point:
Things like online dating, and events where 30% of people are gay, make it sound like you're still at least partly in the closet. If you fix that, you can start going to pubs and parties where 99% of people are gay, and they're 99% sure that you are. That makes everything much easier. For one thing, closeted guys in their late 20s aren't boyfriend material.
Coming out is like standing on a diving board: make sure there's something safe to land on, take a deep breath, then take a step where you can't step back. The feelings of exhilaration, existential choice, and not standing on anything solid, are pretty similar in both cases.
People tend not to be out at work. Therefore pretty well all sane gay men have a significant life apart from work. That has some negative career implications, but it also has some positive ones.
Good luck.
Your new city probably has a gay counseling phone line. If it doesn't, you need to move somewhere that does. You're the reason volunteers spend their time on those phones, so call them. They're gay, and they know where gay people hang out in your part of the world.
> Has anyone else found themselves in this situation? How did you get out of it?
By joining the university choral society, persistence, and a fair bit of luck. You'll probably do it differently.
> None of my friends are gay, nor do they know any gay people.
Let's do some probability theory. Trait X is randomly distributed across 10% of the population. (You can cut the Kinsey scale at different places. It's a round number, and it's true for some plausible definition of "gay".) The likelihood of your assertion is around P=0.9^(N²), where N is the typical number of friends you or one of your friends has. Go run hoc.
Case 1: P is above, say, 5%. This is the easy case. You could be right, and you just need to get out more. Stop reading HN and do it.
Case 2: P strains credibility. You might have to replace "are" with "say that they are". This is the hard case, because meeting more people who say that they're not gay won't help, and you need some different friends. A few things to consider at that point:
Things like online dating, and events where 30% of people are gay, make it sound like you're still at least partly in the closet. If you fix that, you can start going to pubs and parties where 99% of people are gay, and they're 99% sure that you are. That makes everything much easier. For one thing, closeted guys in their late 20s aren't boyfriend material.
Coming out is like standing on a diving board: make sure there's something safe to land on, take a deep breath, then take a step where you can't step back. The feelings of exhilaration, existential choice, and not standing on anything solid, are pretty similar in both cases.
People tend not to be out at work. Therefore pretty well all sane gay men have a significant life apart from work. That has some negative career implications, but it also has some positive ones.
Good luck.
> For one thing, closeted guys in their late 20s aren't boyfriend material.
I also don't live with or have anything to do with my parents. I just meant to say that I don't know anyone personally who can help me figure out why I'm so bad at this.
I also don't live with or have anything to do with my parents. I just meant to say that I don't know anyone personally who can help me figure out why I'm so bad at this.
There's nothing to figure out. Nearly everyone that doesn't live in the same place where they grew up is bad at making new friends outside of school or work. Nearly everyone is bad at remembering a new person's name. Nearly everyone is awkward.
Hmm ... that sounds a bit grim. Tell me the city and I'll look up the phone number. That's not identifying information: there are lots of gay men everywhere.
Orlando, FL.
This looks like a place to start: http://www.glbcc.org/index.html . Call them, or just walk in, and chat to the receptionist.
Think of it as like the moment when Harry Potter walks into Diagon Alley. Though it's almost certainly the other way round:
http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/the_book_club/features/19...
And remember, at the start of the story, being Harry Potter was pretty terrible. That changed fast.
Think of it as like the moment when Harry Potter walks into Diagon Alley. Though it's almost certainly the other way round:
http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/the_book_club/features/19...
And remember, at the start of the story, being Harry Potter was pretty terrible. That changed fast.
I'll give them a shot.
I fear we have the same fears.
I am also gay, also without many gay friends (few that I hang out with frequently), same startup life, same late 20s, never been in a relationship story.
I am deeply uncomfortable with who I am. I have not found an answer yet.
I am also gay, also without many gay friends (few that I hang out with frequently), same startup life, same late 20s, never been in a relationship story.
I am deeply uncomfortable with who I am. I have not found an answer yet.
Yeah 3:
Being gay is kind of terrible. Especially if you want a committed monogamous relationship.
Being gay is kind of terrible. Especially if you want a committed monogamous relationship.
I am wondering in the same thing, except I am working on Wall Street where it is less tolerate. I know there must be some gays in this industry, but it seems most of gay finance professionals are closeted, and you can't really tell who is gay and who is not.
Hack your fursona by adding a cool cybernetic eye or a carbon-fiber horn. Really amp up your fursona game. See you at FC!
Hahaha :3
I don't think I'll make it to FC this or next year. Maybe Megaplex in Kissimmee.
My FA is InfoSecFurry if you or anyone wants to bark my way.
I don't think I'll make it to FC this or next year. Maybe Megaplex in Kissimmee.
My FA is InfoSecFurry if you or anyone wants to bark my way.
I'm single, gay, in Chicago, just hit my thirties, one very good relationship, a few shorter / smaller ones. I'm not great at dating, and I'm in a field that isn't exactly drenched in outgoing gay guys (academic computer science), but here are somethings that have been working well for me:
* Cooking. Not only is it a practical thing you can offer in a relationship, but its also a great way to meet someone. Invite three friends over for dinner, tell them to each bring a someone you don't know. Everyone meets a bunch of new people that likely aren't creeps (since they're at least a friend's friend), you can share something you're learning with them, and even if no one there is gay, they might know someone else who is.
* Join a club. Volunteering is a great thing for this, and volunteering in something you care about. In Chicago (where I live) we have a gay community center called the Center on Halsted. They know that lots of the people volunteering are doing so to meet friends / romantic partners / etc. So there are lots and lots of volunteer opportunities for lots of interests (safe sex promotion, working with the elderly, working with gay homeless youth, etc.)
* Work less. On one hand I know where you're coming from when you say there are too many demands on your time. But on the other hand, what you're also saying is that "all the demands on your time you're accepting are more important than your romantic life." Straight up refuse to work two nights a week and join a gay running club, find a meet up or two that you're sincerely interested in and can become a regular at, etc.
* Get more comfortable saying no. This was the hardest thing for me. I was crazy lonely for a long time, and so whenever I went on a date, I felt like saying "thanks, but I don't feel a connection" was tantamount to saying "thanks, but I'd rather be alone forever." And since I felt I couldn't say no to someone once I started dating them, I didn't say yes to anyone either (since one date felt like it "implied" 100). Surprisingly, feeling less anxious, feeling more comfortable saying no, made it a whole lot easier to say "yes" and try out lots of new possible relationships.
* Therapy? This has been huge for me, not for any particular trauma or issue, but just in a million small ways. I just saw below you saying something like "being gay sucks, especially if you want a monogamous relationship". I'm of course (totally possibly wrongly) reading myself into your comment, so take this with a mega grain of salt, but that sounds like the result of some inner struggle / insecurity stuff, maybe around sexuality. I had that attitude for a long time at least, and thats were it was coming from for me.
Anyway, shit, just wrote a book by accident. Shoot me a message if you wanna talk more man. Guess reading your comment reminded me of myself a lot…
* Cooking. Not only is it a practical thing you can offer in a relationship, but its also a great way to meet someone. Invite three friends over for dinner, tell them to each bring a someone you don't know. Everyone meets a bunch of new people that likely aren't creeps (since they're at least a friend's friend), you can share something you're learning with them, and even if no one there is gay, they might know someone else who is.
* Join a club. Volunteering is a great thing for this, and volunteering in something you care about. In Chicago (where I live) we have a gay community center called the Center on Halsted. They know that lots of the people volunteering are doing so to meet friends / romantic partners / etc. So there are lots and lots of volunteer opportunities for lots of interests (safe sex promotion, working with the elderly, working with gay homeless youth, etc.)
* Work less. On one hand I know where you're coming from when you say there are too many demands on your time. But on the other hand, what you're also saying is that "all the demands on your time you're accepting are more important than your romantic life." Straight up refuse to work two nights a week and join a gay running club, find a meet up or two that you're sincerely interested in and can become a regular at, etc.
* Get more comfortable saying no. This was the hardest thing for me. I was crazy lonely for a long time, and so whenever I went on a date, I felt like saying "thanks, but I don't feel a connection" was tantamount to saying "thanks, but I'd rather be alone forever." And since I felt I couldn't say no to someone once I started dating them, I didn't say yes to anyone either (since one date felt like it "implied" 100). Surprisingly, feeling less anxious, feeling more comfortable saying no, made it a whole lot easier to say "yes" and try out lots of new possible relationships.
* Therapy? This has been huge for me, not for any particular trauma or issue, but just in a million small ways. I just saw below you saying something like "being gay sucks, especially if you want a monogamous relationship". I'm of course (totally possibly wrongly) reading myself into your comment, so take this with a mega grain of salt, but that sounds like the result of some inner struggle / insecurity stuff, maybe around sexuality. I had that attitude for a long time at least, and thats were it was coming from for me.
Anyway, shit, just wrote a book by accident. Shoot me a message if you wanna talk more man. Guess reading your comment reminded me of myself a lot…
Actually I was commenting on the only gay people I've met. They just want a fuck-buddy and I don't want to lower myself to that.
finehopelee(1)
I've never been in a relationship.
I've tried online dating, I've tried going to events where people with similar interests would be. I've even gone to furry events (for the record: ~30% of furries are gay and ~40% are bisexual; also, I like fursuits).
I've yet to even make a friend, let alone meet anyone whom I could enter a relationship with.
I don't know what I'm doing wrong. It's like nobody is interested in me. I wonder if I'm too boring.
Has anyone else found themselves in this situation?
How did you get out of it?