The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills(mosaicscience.com)
mosaicscience.com
The male suicides: how social perfectionism kills
http://mosaicscience.com/story/male-suicide
344 comments
A few years ago I was eating dinner and watching the local 6PM TV news broadcast. The lead story: "Friends and family mourn the tragic death of a young woman who killed herself..." Half an hour later: "A young man has become the latest statistic in a string of suicides..."
I don't know if it was deliberate, but it definitely brought to mind the quote attributed (most likely incorrectly) to Stalin concerning deaths, tragedies, and statistics.
I don't know if it was deliberate, but it definitely brought to mind the quote attributed (most likely incorrectly) to Stalin concerning deaths, tragedies, and statistics.
Vaguely frustrating that this thread had been taken over by MRAs.
Suicide is complex. Suicide is common - it's a leading cause of death for some men.
We need to make it acceptable for men to seek help when they are suicidal.
This does not mean that we need men to talk and talk and talk about their intimate feelings. But we do need to make it so men can say "I'm not having a good day" and have someone else say "is it the kind of thing you want to talk to me about? Or is it the kind of thing you might want to talk to a doctor about?"
Suicide is complex. Suicide is common - it's a leading cause of death for some men.
We need to make it acceptable for men to seek help when they are suicidal.
This does not mean that we need men to talk and talk and talk about their intimate feelings. But we do need to make it so men can say "I'm not having a good day" and have someone else say "is it the kind of thing you want to talk to me about? Or is it the kind of thing you might want to talk to a doctor about?"
Spend a day in family court. Nowhere are the expectations of perfectionism for men lower, but rules and the penalties higher. The suicide and early death numbers for men whi transit this system are predictably high.
It all boils down to social pressure, doesn't it?
Socially, it is unacceptable for men to be "losers". To have any social standing men have to do what is "respectable". Losing a job, for example, is not.
Why can't a man be appreciated for who he is? Why does he have lower standing if he makes min wage or does something boring? Maybe he has other things he takes care of. Maybe he has a deep personality and even deeper interests.
To be honest, once I realized that this is how males are treated in real world, I started having more respect for men in any situation...for I know what they've been through. The world is cursed for men.
Socially, it is unacceptable for men to be "losers". To have any social standing men have to do what is "respectable". Losing a job, for example, is not.
Why can't a man be appreciated for who he is? Why does he have lower standing if he makes min wage or does something boring? Maybe he has other things he takes care of. Maybe he has a deep personality and even deeper interests.
To be honest, once I realized that this is how males are treated in real world, I started having more respect for men in any situation...for I know what they've been through. The world is cursed for men.
The media have been churning out self-reinforcing stereotypes for decades. The effects are as subtle as lethal.
A few years ago I was very stressed out. I thought that talking about my problems (college, family, whatever) would have helped me. I shared my worries and fears with a few my female friends. Bad idea.
> “A man who’s needing help is seen as a figure of fun”
A few years ago I was very stressed out. I thought that talking about my problems (college, family, whatever) would have helped me. I shared my worries and fears with a few my female friends. Bad idea.
> “A man who’s needing help is seen as a figure of fun”
Real title: "How a cheating wife killed her loyal husband and took all his stuff and the kids in a 100% legal and socially-approved way".
The article begins with what appears to be a misstatement of fact. China is an unusual country where the female suicide rate has been higher than the male rate for a long time.
This article points out something I've felt intuitively for the last few years.
Can anyone recommend any vacation destinations or some other form of a get-away for a week or two? I've been getting really stressed out lately, probably a burn out. Have been thinking about some sort of a vacation anywhere from a cruise to meditation retreat, can't make up my mind. Any recommendations?
Not to derail this topic but this article outlined some symptoms I have, feel like I need a break.
Can anyone recommend any vacation destinations or some other form of a get-away for a week or two? I've been getting really stressed out lately, probably a burn out. Have been thinking about some sort of a vacation anywhere from a cruise to meditation retreat, can't make up my mind. Any recommendations?
Not to derail this topic but this article outlined some symptoms I have, feel like I need a break.
Social perfectionism? Maybe just having a spouse like Livvy was enough to do it... geez. People who are evil, uncaring, and selfish can also cause others to feel depressed.
I remember reading a strange question on Quora once. A woman was trying to figure out why her husband was always drunk and suicidal. "He used to be the perfect man! I don't understand why he's acting like this now." Of course, in the next paragraph, she mentions that it all started right after she had cheated on him. The disconnect between her behavior and her failure to recognize its consequences was staggering.
I remember reading a strange question on Quora once. A woman was trying to figure out why her husband was always drunk and suicidal. "He used to be the perfect man! I don't understand why he's acting like this now." Of course, in the next paragraph, she mentions that it all started right after she had cheated on him. The disconnect between her behavior and her failure to recognize its consequences was staggering.
This article mentions England a lot. You can get detailed statistics from our Office for National Statistics.
If you want to know suicide rates in different regions you want the (unfortunately named) NUTS3 document: http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/about-ons/business-transparency/fr...
If you want deaths registered in 2013 (note the registered there. Somone could die in 2012 but have a death registered in 2013) you want this page: http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/subnational-health4/suicides-i... which links to a spreadsheet with the data.
They use a clear definition of what they count as suicide.
If you want to know suicide rates in different regions you want the (unfortunately named) NUTS3 document: http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/about-ons/business-transparency/fr...
If you want deaths registered in 2013 (note the registered there. Somone could die in 2012 but have a death registered in 2013) you want this page: http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/subnational-health4/suicides-i... which links to a spreadsheet with the data.
They use a clear definition of what they count as suicide.
> In every country in the world, male suicides outnumber female. The mystery is why?
It's not mysterious at all ... it's obvious. Men face stricter social judgement and less psychological support.
> Less than 5 per cent do. So mental illness is not an explanation.
What? First of all that is a lot and second of all it is no secret that a very severe depression often keeps people from contacting a doctor and being diagnosed. In Germany you are facing easily several months until treatment. When do you contact a doc - when you are suffering the worst - when do you commit suicide? - then - and you are not diagnosed yet.
It's not mysterious at all ... it's obvious. Men face stricter social judgement and less psychological support.
> Less than 5 per cent do. So mental illness is not an explanation.
What? First of all that is a lot and second of all it is no secret that a very severe depression often keeps people from contacting a doctor and being diagnosed. In Germany you are facing easily several months until treatment. When do you contact a doc - when you are suffering the worst - when do you commit suicide? - then - and you are not diagnosed yet.
I'd like to offer a different perspective.
Suicide is a violent crime, the killing of a human being.
Now, if we believe Wikipedia, then around 90% of homicides in the US will be committed by males. It seems reasonable that the male-female ratio should be about the same in the UK.
Then a 0.8 ratio of male to female suicides could be accounted for by the increased male homicide rate alone.
The Wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_crime
Suicide is a violent crime, the killing of a human being.
Now, if we believe Wikipedia, then around 90% of homicides in the US will be committed by males. It seems reasonable that the male-female ratio should be about the same in the UK.
Then a 0.8 ratio of male to female suicides could be accounted for by the increased male homicide rate alone.
The Wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_crime
This is one of the reasons the phrase 'male privilege' fills me with anger.
Perhaps the simple principle that behind every great love/success lays a great suicide. You can't give yourself completely and keep the man inside. Maybe current society places too much value (amongst men) on complete commitment which in turn leads to a type of internal suicide, a loss of self and identity, which may manifest itself in a less internal but instead physical response (a true suicide).
Crying IS a sign of weakness and immaturity. Ever wondered why children cry more than adults?
We're turning into a bunch of sissy, "touchy feely" men in the west - it's enough to drive anyone to suicide. This whole political correctness thing has gone too far - and I say that as a minority myself. Yeah, so I'll get downvoted - so what?! - Newsflash - there are more important things in life than points on HN!
We're turning into a bunch of sissy, "touchy feely" men in the west - it's enough to drive anyone to suicide. This whole political correctness thing has gone too far - and I say that as a minority myself. Yeah, so I'll get downvoted - so what?! - Newsflash - there are more important things in life than points on HN!
It's an interesting read. What I've taken from it and from my own experience is that even though the Confucian scholar may be wise and poor, largely he is happy. My experience in life has been that the times I've been the happiest are the times when I've had the least and haven't been chasing power and wealth. The times when I've been most unhappy are those when by and large I would have outwardly been considered the most successful.
As they say, money... and by extension, power, cannot buy happiness... and for all the retorts to that: The illusion of happiness doesn't count as happiness. The illusion is just a distraction from your own inner turmoil... and it will only distract you for so long before you realize that for all your wealth and power, true happiness lies within.
As they say, money... and by extension, power, cannot buy happiness... and for all the retorts to that: The illusion of happiness doesn't count as happiness. The illusion is just a distraction from your own inner turmoil... and it will only distract you for so long before you realize that for all your wealth and power, true happiness lies within.
Living in a culture where people show only their "perfect" social self on Facebook certainly doesn't help.
I guess the world is turning more social, and women are generally better at that game.
Men are losing ground. We are turning into accessories.
I guess the world is turning more social, and women are generally better at that game.
Men are losing ground. We are turning into accessories.
I think this article puts the euphemism 'social perfectionism' on the subtle, and in some cases blatant anti-male stance that pervades US and UK society today.
Sports teams fall over themselves to wear pink for Mother's Day, hardly anyone celebrates Father's Day. [1] Time Magazine publishes an article on how "Men are Obsolete". [2] Politicians routinely trumpet the 77% pay gap despite it being "more complicated than that" at best, and false at worst. [3] Fathers are routinely mocked and disparaged in TV commercials, and shown as the bumbling idiot. [4] A Columbia student has gained national acclaim after doing a "art performance" accusing a fellow student of rape [5] while he (despite having been cleared by the University) is still a pariah. [6] Meanwhile, a female teacher in California who had sex with her 14-year old male student gets only two years in prison (note that the article doesn't ever say "rape", even though it is statutory rape).[7]
Given these, is it any surprise that the average man who is mocked by society thinks of committing suicide after his wife commits infidelity multiple times, and then gets the house through no-fault divorce laws? This has nothing to do with so-called perfectionism.
To be fair, the article covers this in one succinct sentence in the middle, which is, "In the UK and other Western societies, it sometimes feels as if we collectively decided, at some point around the mid-1980s, that men are awful." -- which I think is a far more accurate statement.
[1] http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/granderson-met-ya...
[2] http://time.com/179/men-are-obsolete/
[3] http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2013/08/gende...
[4] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGCTFjFiNu4
[5] http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/10/29...
[6] http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/02/03/columbia-st...
[7] http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/05/07/amy-beck-gets-2-yea...
Sports teams fall over themselves to wear pink for Mother's Day, hardly anyone celebrates Father's Day. [1] Time Magazine publishes an article on how "Men are Obsolete". [2] Politicians routinely trumpet the 77% pay gap despite it being "more complicated than that" at best, and false at worst. [3] Fathers are routinely mocked and disparaged in TV commercials, and shown as the bumbling idiot. [4] A Columbia student has gained national acclaim after doing a "art performance" accusing a fellow student of rape [5] while he (despite having been cleared by the University) is still a pariah. [6] Meanwhile, a female teacher in California who had sex with her 14-year old male student gets only two years in prison (note that the article doesn't ever say "rape", even though it is statutory rape).[7]
Given these, is it any surprise that the average man who is mocked by society thinks of committing suicide after his wife commits infidelity multiple times, and then gets the house through no-fault divorce laws? This has nothing to do with so-called perfectionism.
To be fair, the article covers this in one succinct sentence in the middle, which is, "In the UK and other Western societies, it sometimes feels as if we collectively decided, at some point around the mid-1980s, that men are awful." -- which I think is a far more accurate statement.
[1] http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/granderson-met-ya...
[2] http://time.com/179/men-are-obsolete/
[3] http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2013/08/gende...
[4] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGCTFjFiNu4
[5] http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/10/29...
[6] http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/02/03/columbia-st...
[7] http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/05/07/amy-beck-gets-2-yea...
When it comes right down to the basics, with humans as with most species, males are less useful than females. Females have an inbuilt basic purpose, males have to prove their usefulness to the species/tribe/society. However tragic it may be, maybe it's just perfectly natural behaviour for the "superfluous" males to give up. I guess the opposite reaction would be to go around venting their frustration by raping and pillaging.
(And no, I'm not writing this from the safe distance of a successful male. I've been close to that edge, like many of us, and I have no illusion I may not end up there again.)
(And no, I'm not writing this from the safe distance of a successful male. I've been close to that edge, like many of us, and I have no illusion I may not end up there again.)
I think some people need proper perspective on life. We are all actors playing out silly games of ambition. Achievement is really no different than a life of non-achievement, although your human instincts tell you otherwise. Also there is no such thing as being perfect unless perhaps you are a strong artificial intelligence that is a million times smarter than humans.
look, men are disposable. and it's always been this way, biologically speaking. throughout most of history, mens' purpose was disposability - through soldiering, exploring, entrepreneurialism (the high risk / high reward activities), or just working your fuckin' ass to the bone in the fields of fealty or a in a grey cubicle (the low risk / low reward activities).
let's define some terms. "meaning of life" (note i didn't say purpose) = reproduction, as far as anyone can tell. a single man can impregnate scores of women, and then die the very next day. the same can't be said of the female reproductive paradigm. for full replacement rate-of-birth, damn near every female is needed, and the other 99 men aren't... technically. however --
modern society has attempted to socially engineer this hasty biological truth out of male populations - it attempts to normalize male achievement and distribute the proceeds in a more equal manner. hence the social traditions and mores that have come to define the last few centuries (i call it the 3 M's - marriage, mortgages, and missionary)
furthermore, society interprets "men" as the top (physically, socially, financially) 20% of men, the men who make a real dent in the world and who override the general perception of masculinity in society. the high achievers, the genetically gifted, the powerful. the stereotypical 'man'.
however, the truth is most men aren't that archetype. most men are workhorse peons that get the shit end of the deal, having to endure living a modern subsistence lifestyle that consists of cheap housing, cheap food, cheap relationships, cheap labor. our (i hesitate to say western? i mean these days it's all over the fucking world) society has so far successfully plastered over this truth with an embarrassment of material and technological wealth (especially tech wealth in the last 10 years, for goodness' sake think of how many hours one could waste in imaginary world of all sorts), but the ruse may be soon up.
it's true and you can verify it just by looking around - the rest of us men are either invisible, relegated to uncelebrated mediocrity, or become hermits of some sort or another. it's extremely difficult as a man to reconcile the societal and sometimes familial expectations of being into the top 20%, and the slow burn of your 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, straight into the bottom half of society.
to me it's absolutely clear why men decide to check-the-fuck-out, whether through technological, societal, or mortal means. we shouldn't be focusing on the problems, which are clear as day, we should be focusing on the solutions. i fear that my industry (tech, software, automation, whatever you want to call it), in which i am a vanishingly minor, yet complicit conspirator, has only hit the accelerator on the depreciation and obsolescence of the vast majority of men.
let's define some terms. "meaning of life" (note i didn't say purpose) = reproduction, as far as anyone can tell. a single man can impregnate scores of women, and then die the very next day. the same can't be said of the female reproductive paradigm. for full replacement rate-of-birth, damn near every female is needed, and the other 99 men aren't... technically. however --
modern society has attempted to socially engineer this hasty biological truth out of male populations - it attempts to normalize male achievement and distribute the proceeds in a more equal manner. hence the social traditions and mores that have come to define the last few centuries (i call it the 3 M's - marriage, mortgages, and missionary)
furthermore, society interprets "men" as the top (physically, socially, financially) 20% of men, the men who make a real dent in the world and who override the general perception of masculinity in society. the high achievers, the genetically gifted, the powerful. the stereotypical 'man'.
however, the truth is most men aren't that archetype. most men are workhorse peons that get the shit end of the deal, having to endure living a modern subsistence lifestyle that consists of cheap housing, cheap food, cheap relationships, cheap labor. our (i hesitate to say western? i mean these days it's all over the fucking world) society has so far successfully plastered over this truth with an embarrassment of material and technological wealth (especially tech wealth in the last 10 years, for goodness' sake think of how many hours one could waste in imaginary world of all sorts), but the ruse may be soon up.
it's true and you can verify it just by looking around - the rest of us men are either invisible, relegated to uncelebrated mediocrity, or become hermits of some sort or another. it's extremely difficult as a man to reconcile the societal and sometimes familial expectations of being into the top 20%, and the slow burn of your 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, straight into the bottom half of society.
to me it's absolutely clear why men decide to check-the-fuck-out, whether through technological, societal, or mortal means. we shouldn't be focusing on the problems, which are clear as day, we should be focusing on the solutions. i fear that my industry (tech, software, automation, whatever you want to call it), in which i am a vanishingly minor, yet complicit conspirator, has only hit the accelerator on the depreciation and obsolescence of the vast majority of men.
Drummond was a social perfectionist because he was unconsciously trying to please his absent father. The effect of how a child grows up is astounding to his further development in life.
> When they finally divorced, Livvy got the house, the children, the lot. Once the maintenance was paid, there wasn’t much left for Drummond.
I guess getting suicidal over things like this is "social perfectionism".
I guess getting suicidal over things like this is "social perfectionism".
what in god's name is that font
literally unreadable!
literally unreadable!
[deleted]
Some MRA bullshit up in here. Sickening.
In my belief, we prioritize the responsibility
God first, then obligation to parents (both sides if married) then to your immediate family
It keeps thing simple for me & seems to be working so far
Although, I'm guessing not adhering to social norm helps in a way
God first, then obligation to parents (both sides if married) then to your immediate family
It keeps thing simple for me & seems to be working so far
Although, I'm guessing not adhering to social norm helps in a way
Queue male rights activists to explain to us how this is all feminism's fault :/ Tragic, really. Things like this seem to obviously stem from patriarchy. But instead of dismantling patriarchy, a small group of men simply blame everything on feminists. Those feminists, how dare they fight for themselves before they have solved the problems of men! :D
As a society, we need to come to terms with masculinity. That means men need to be able to be masculine without being domineering and without being castigated.