ESR: Ego is for little people(esr.ibiblio.org)
esr.ibiblio.org
ESR: Ego is for little people
http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=1404
17 comments
Steve Yegge has an excellent blog post on "graceful overachievers." Steve makes a good point, but what makes his posting truly excellent is that he ripostes Joel Spolsky's old chestnut, "Smart, and Gets Things Done."
http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2008/06/done-and-gets-things...
http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2008/06/done-and-gets-things...
I agree that his basic point is correct. If you spend time in any subculture that has some sort of skill stratification, you will notice that most of the people at the top lack an ego. It's typically the people that are trying to reach the top step that do.
Yeah sure when you are on top but then there is the fall from grace. As you become less relevant or get superseded. That's when the ego comes out, tantrums, destructive behavior, etc.
I'm not sure that esr reached "the top". Perhaps on the speaking gig tour, and yes he's written a couple books.
But he's never achieved what he so likes to claim.
He claims to be a "core linux developer", yet he has no code in the kernel, and CML2 was flatly rejected.
He used to claim that he contributed to GNU starting in 1982, but when I showed that was impossible, he corrected to "mid-80s" (its 1987.)
I think he feels he was on the way up, met his limitations, and has since been scrambling in an attempt to maintain the position he held in 1999.
But he's never achieved what he so likes to claim.
He claims to be a "core linux developer", yet he has no code in the kernel, and CML2 was flatly rejected.
He used to claim that he contributed to GNU starting in 1982, but when I showed that was impossible, he corrected to "mid-80s" (its 1987.)
I think he feels he was on the way up, met his limitations, and has since been scrambling in an attempt to maintain the position he held in 1999.
Eric S. Raymond has become such a ludicrous parody that it just seems cruel to make fun of him.
> I’m going to use myself as an example now, mainly because I don’t know anyone else’s story well enough to make the point I want to with it. I’m the crippled kid who became a black-belt martial artist and teacher of martial artists. I’ve made the New York Times bestseller list as a writer. You can hardly use a browser, a cellphone, or a game console without relying on my code. I’ve been a session musician on two records. I’ve blown up the software industry once, reinvented the hacker culture twice, and am without doubt one of the dozen most famous geeks alive. Investment bankers pay me $300 an hour to yak at them because I have a track record as a shrewd business analyst. I don’t even have a BS, yet there’s been an entire academic cottage industry devoted to writing exegeses of my work. I could do nothing but speaking tours for the rest of my life and still be overbooked. Earnest people have struggled their whole lives to change the world less than I routinely do when I’m not even really trying.
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Really makes you wonder who he's trying to impress with all that.
And at $300 / hour he's having a whole population of lawyers laugh at him to boot...
And at $300 / hour he's having a whole population of lawyers laugh at him to boot...
What's with the vendetta John ?
Your Alan Turing efforts put you in a class of your own, this ESR bashing is detrimental.
Let him stew, outcode him or ignore him, it's not worth it.
Your Alan Turing efforts put you in a class of your own, this ESR bashing is detrimental.
Let him stew, outcode him or ignore him, it's not worth it.
I didn't post this because of a vendetta. I thought he had some good points about A-listers and it was interesting for HNers.
Clearly, I don't agree with his self-assessment as an A-lister, but the article has some interesting points. But that's partly because my evaluation of him is that he's not, and partly because I don't think self-assessment really counts.
Clearly, I don't agree with his self-assessment as an A-lister, but the article has some interesting points. But that's partly because my evaluation of him is that he's not, and partly because I don't think self-assessment really counts.
This is the frustrating thing with ESR: occasionally he has good points.
The problem is that they are often buried in narcissism, just like this essay, which is ironically claiming that he is not afflicted by such.
Basically it's the same thing that rubs me the wrong way with Timothy Ferriss -- sometimes there's useful stuff in there. His version, however, seems more playfully mischievous; he seems to be in on the joke.
The problem is that they are often buried in narcissism, just like this essay, which is ironically claiming that he is not afflicted by such.
Basically it's the same thing that rubs me the wrong way with Timothy Ferriss -- sometimes there's useful stuff in there. His version, however, seems more playfully mischievous; he seems to be in on the joke.
After yesterdays post on that silly bit of python code (if it worked, that was good enough for me), and this piece today (which makes ESR look pretty weird) I hope you'll forgive me if I thought that you were focusing on him way too much.
I've looked at a whole bunch of code you wrote and without exception it is exemplary, that's the way to do it, lead by example, not by going after an individual, no matter how silly they are.
By singling out this one person I'm thinking that he got under your skin with his stupid remarks and this (hoisting him by his own petard) is your way of paying him back.
As far as I'm concerned it doesn't matter one bit what the guy wrote or how crappy his software is, there is no need for you to show him, the code speaks for you.
The piece indeed has some good points about A-listers, but for the most part it comes across to me as being written by someone who needs help of some sort.
I've looked at a whole bunch of code you wrote and without exception it is exemplary, that's the way to do it, lead by example, not by going after an individual, no matter how silly they are.
By singling out this one person I'm thinking that he got under your skin with his stupid remarks and this (hoisting him by his own petard) is your way of paying him back.
As far as I'm concerned it doesn't matter one bit what the guy wrote or how crappy his software is, there is no need for you to show him, the code speaks for you.
The piece indeed has some good points about A-listers, but for the most part it comes across to me as being written by someone who needs help of some sort.
Normally, I wouldn't post things from ESR's blog and that's because I don't read it. I don't read it because it's mostly non-technical (he usually covers political or philosophical topics that don't interest me).
Because the ForgePlucker got posted to HN I learned of it and hence the last couple of days interactions. The resulted in me reading his blog a bit and hence this posting.
I've looked at a whole bunch of code you wrote and without exception it is exemplary, that's the way to do it, lead by example, not by going after an individual, no matter how silly they are.
You haven't looked hard enough :-) I'm sure there's quite a bit of stuff I'd be ashamed of today.
Because the ForgePlucker got posted to HN I learned of it and hence the last couple of days interactions. The resulted in me reading his blog a bit and hence this posting.
I've looked at a whole bunch of code you wrote and without exception it is exemplary, that's the way to do it, lead by example, not by going after an individual, no matter how silly they are.
You haven't looked hard enough :-) I'm sure there's quite a bit of stuff I'd be ashamed of today.
> You haven't looked hard enough :-) I'm sure there's quite a bit of stuff I'd be ashamed of today.
Self-awareness is key to improving. If you're not ashamed of at least a fraction of your code, you're deluded.
Invariably the most talented people are those painfully aware of their own flaws and shortcomings.
Self-awareness is key to improving. If you're not ashamed of at least a fraction of your code, you're deluded.
Invariably the most talented people are those painfully aware of their own flaws and shortcomings.
Do the best you can at the time you do the work and there is no reason to be ashamed later. I have done lots of things I would do differently today, but the only alternative is to not keep learning.
It's my experience that most decent programmers, and even some crummy ones, think they are in the top 1%. It's a lot like poker - everyone thinks they're way above average at it.
I saw a study a few months ago on that, I think it was linked on Overcoming Bias,but I'm not sure. Apparently, most people rate themselves in the 3rd quartile; everyone under average thinks they are somewhat above, and people in the upper quartile generally over-estimate the average, thinking most are more like themselves, so only those who are actually in the third percentile are (accidentally) accurate in their self-assessments.
It's a lot like everything. I haven't found any skill or talent where that isn't true.
Keeping this in mind is the first step towards a reasonable self-assessment.
Keeping this in mind is the first step towards a reasonable self-assessment.
It's mildly amusing (and telling) that posting a link to someone's writing could be seen as expressing a vendetta against the writer. :)
You missed yesterdays episode and the preceding salvos apparently.
You're correct, I did. I went back and caught up, but I think my point still stands.
Why are you sticking up for ESR? He's elected to be a public figure. He richly deserves all the critiques he can get. What about him makes you --- a demonstrably smart person --- feel the need to defend him?
I like the idea that merely posting this essay is an act of ESR-bashing. I agree, but think it's warranted.
I say outcode him.
I blew him up last time (a couple years ago). I also supported Leach's efforts (ELER, web-comic).
The 'E' in esr stands for Ego.
http://geekz.co.uk/esrfacts/fact/16
I blew him up last time (a couple years ago). I also supported Leach's efforts (ELER, web-comic).
The 'E' in esr stands for Ego.
http://geekz.co.uk/esrfacts/fact/16
I checked out that esrfacts hoping it would be entertaining. That has got to be one of the lamest sites that I have ever seen, it is so lame that it has me actually using the term for the first time ever.
Raymond's point about people at the top not needing to to self-promote is something I've heard described many times before. I would call it trite, actually, but my googling is failing me so I can't find examples to back that up.
One very eloquent description I've seen is "The luxury of humility." Basically, a guy like Einstein had the luxury to declare himself horrible at math (for example) because his reputation as a physicist and mathematician was so solid that nothing he said could possibly dent it. Instead, any self-deprecation he did would simply bolster his reputation for humility.
An unproven physicist, on the other hand, would not be advised to mimic Einstein in declaring himself bad at math because people would be more likely to take it seriously and dismiss his work as probably containing errors.
That said, Eric Raymond used to annoy me, then he became this sort of perversely amusing thing (about the time ELER was running). Now I have to say that I can't read this kind of stuff without feeling sorry for him. He's a textbook example, or at least his writing is, of false bravado vainly trying to mask almost limitless amounts of insecurity.
One very eloquent description I've seen is "The luxury of humility." Basically, a guy like Einstein had the luxury to declare himself horrible at math (for example) because his reputation as a physicist and mathematician was so solid that nothing he said could possibly dent it. Instead, any self-deprecation he did would simply bolster his reputation for humility.
An unproven physicist, on the other hand, would not be advised to mimic Einstein in declaring himself bad at math because people would be more likely to take it seriously and dismiss his work as probably containing errors.
That said, Eric Raymond used to annoy me, then he became this sort of perversely amusing thing (about the time ELER was running). Now I have to say that I can't read this kind of stuff without feeling sorry for him. He's a textbook example, or at least his writing is, of false bravado vainly trying to mask almost limitless amounts of insecurity.
Einstein was certainly a great physicist, but not a mathematician. He was really bad at math, it wasn't false modesty.
This is one of the most egotistical and self centered writings I have (partially) read in a long time.
I quit reading when he started using himself "as an example". Talking about himself seemed to be the point of this post.
I quit reading when he started using himself "as an example". Talking about himself seemed to be the point of this post.
Everything ESR has written about hacker culture boils down to "hey, people like me are really awesome!" and often not much to how things really are...
You can hardly use a browser, a cellphone, or a game console without relying on my code.
Any guesses? I'm pretty sure this phone doesn't use fetchmail.
Any guesses? I'm pretty sure this phone doesn't use fetchmail.
I believe he's referring to the fact that he was at one time the maintainer of giflib (or libgif) and that he contributed some code to libpng. Since these are, he claims, vital to all those items you mention then we are all using his code.
That's right. People asked about this in the comments on the post. His answers are here:
http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=1404#comment-242133
http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=1404#comment-242156
Bottom line: libgif and libpng.
http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=1404#comment-242133
http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=1404#comment-242156
Bottom line: libgif and libpng.
CompuServe described GIF, and then Gershon Elber and I made an open-source implementation that became ubiquitous
Worth noting that multiple years span the time between when Elber actually wrote giflib and when ESR added 2 functions and 3 utilities to it.
Worth noting that multiple years span the time between when Elber actually wrote giflib and when ESR added 2 functions and 3 utilities to it.
So, the guy who wrote libc strpbrk() then: an industry titan?
(Thanks for the answer though --- I think you're right).
(Thanks for the answer though --- I think you're right).
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There is no such thing as an A-list. If you think that you are in the A-list because you are a worldwide renown developer, you can always be better, and be one of the best developers of all times. Or one of the biggest people of all time. You can always be better.
So you think you are the best mathematician all around? You can still compete with Gauss.
So you think you are the best mathematician all around? You can still compete with Gauss.
IMO, Ken Burnside's comment on ESR's post (#5) was better than the article.
"It’s tempting to pigeon-hole Eric’s history as 'loud self display' and 'overinflation of accomplishments'" http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=1404#comment-242109
Although I've never met Mr. Raymond, since his own measures (self-display, insecurity, constant approval-seeking, overinflating one’s accomplishments, etc) would lead most to the obvious conclusion that the he is either a small person or a hypocrite, I think he may actually be attempting some kind of transcendent Andy Kaufman performance humor - the real joke being the predictability of everyone's reactions.
I think that the real reason the best of the best don't display much ego, is that they are primarily focused on whatever it is they do, rather than on themselves; that is how they got to be the best in the first place.
I am redoubling my efforts to actually learn programming, for the sole purpose of outcoding this yahoo. Shouldn't be hard.
I would like to hear what Alan Kay has to say about that (or Terry Pratchett or ... ).
Why does Eric Raymond remind me of Glenn Beck?
ESR: What an Ego!
it does seem faintly absurd that he's pushing satori whilst citing examples of the pursuit of boats and hoes.
If you have to declare yourself a member of the A-list, you aren't.
On the other hand, this writing doesn't feel like the work of a graceful overachiever. It feels like a rationalization of the man's own loneliness. The graceful overachievers I know are warm people, who see the good in the people they're dealing with, warts and all, and who respect that good.