Ask HN: Looking for advice on manufacturing a physical product
12 comments
One of my good friends (graduate student) is getting started as a consultant doing this kind of work. He is one of the smartest hardware guys I know. He would be more than willing to do the job for a low fee, also he is my roomate so I'm sure I can get you a YC discount :) Check my profile for an email.
For the size you are proposing, anything other than a few resistors is out of the question. Depending on the concept though, I have seen prototypes made on watch PCBs if they can work using an existing electronic design.
The trade-off is as follows - a factory/development house can make the prototype for you IF you order the final product through them in sufficient quantities. If not - custom IC/PCB design plus casing for 100 units will cost around 50 000 USD (again - this really depends on complexity and function) And that is the china price. I live there. I do this for a living. Best place to feel your way is the Hong Kong Trade Development Council or the Productivity council. I mention these so that you can get some perspective. http://www.hkpc.org/html/eng/common/index.jsp
Hire a small shop to do it for you. These guys do this sort of thing
http://www.tieronedesign.com/
Not cheap to do mind you and I'm not sure they do china manufacture but may do domestic.
http://www.tieronedesign.com/
Not cheap to do mind you and I'm not sure they do china manufacture but may do domestic.
Has anyone done anything like this on an individual level? Is it even possible?
Of course! Google Mitch Altman and TV-be-gone. I imagine there are very many others too.
Of course! Google Mitch Altman and TV-be-gone. I imagine there are very many others too.
I googled the name, and rediscovered this interview:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4600578110948529551...
Great stuff, thanks!
Great stuff, thanks!
Of course it is possible! I've worked with several turnkey contract manufacturers in the US that would be happy to build 100 circuit boards. Some will even do PCB layout and help with circuit design. Mechanically, places like protomold and quickparts are a good source at low volumes, especially if you can hand them a CAD file of the enclosure design.
If you're looking for someone to help you out, go where those people hang out: places like sci.electronics.design on usenet, Circuit Cellar Ink forums (http://bbs.circuitcellar.com/phpbb/), Embedded.com forums (http://www.embedded.com/tigforums/index.jspa?categoryID=1), and maybe even chat rooms like #edev.
If you're looking at less than 10k units, I doubt it's worth the effort to go off-shore.
If you're looking for someone to help you out, go where those people hang out: places like sci.electronics.design on usenet, Circuit Cellar Ink forums (http://bbs.circuitcellar.com/phpbb/), Embedded.com forums (http://www.embedded.com/tigforums/index.jspa?categoryID=1), and maybe even chat rooms like #edev.
If you're looking at less than 10k units, I doubt it's worth the effort to go off-shore.
Do you have a NDA (Non-Disclosure Agreement)? That is absolutely essential to protect you from someone just taking your idea and running with it. With IP (Intellectual Property) Law, intent is a very important aspect, and an NDA signifies intent.
There are numerous free resources on the Web which can help you develop a workable NDA. If you email me at [email protected], I will reply with a copy of the NDA I developed for my product idea.
As regards the development of your prototype, given the informatyion you have provided, it is going to be expensive using commercial services to get such a prototype fabricated. This is because you don't have a designed and tested circuit from which the engineers can product printed circuit boards (PCBs) and finshed product from.
Email me, we can talk further.
Tom Keller aka: avrPhreaque [email protected]
There are numerous free resources on the Web which can help you develop a workable NDA. If you email me at [email protected], I will reply with a copy of the NDA I developed for my product idea.
As regards the development of your prototype, given the informatyion you have provided, it is going to be expensive using commercial services to get such a prototype fabricated. This is because you don't have a designed and tested circuit from which the engineers can product printed circuit boards (PCBs) and finshed product from.
Email me, we can talk further.
Tom Keller aka: avrPhreaque [email protected]
A few exploratory questions:
* What is the nature of the electronic device? A PCB? A chip? One or several PCBs integrated with a case, batteries, buttons, etc (i.e. a finished end product or prototype of one)?
* Do you need to outsource because you don't know how to put your design in a form industry-standard CAD tools can understand, or because you are not an electronics guy at all and need somebody to design the thing themselves?
* What kind of volume do you need? 1 prototype, a small run of prototypes, a production run of an existing prototype?
* Similar to #1: Is it electronics only, or do you also need molded plastic, machined metal parts, etc?
I can do a basic bread board, but that's about it. The product is a spin on an existing product (no IP issues I know of, as it's a product that is manufactured and sold under many forms by many companies).
As far as volume is concerned, I'd like to get a prototype in hand first, and then produce a run of 100.
It's electronics are minimal (a timer/clock, about 10k of memory), but need to be put in space about 1-2 cubic cm. Power will be external to this small space, as will a few other components that the electronics will control. It will require both molded plastic and machined metal.
I'd love to give more details, but I'm really surprised no one has jumped on the idea yet.
As far as volume is concerned, I'd like to get a prototype in hand first, and then produce a run of 100.
It's electronics are minimal (a timer/clock, about 10k of memory), but need to be put in space about 1-2 cubic cm. Power will be external to this small space, as will a few other components that the electronics will control. It will require both molded plastic and machined metal.
I'd love to give more details, but I'm really surprised no one has jumped on the idea yet.
Your best bet is going to be teaming up with somebody who does this sort of thing (electrical/mechanical prototyping) for a living (there are a few individual consultants and small consulting firms, some of them suggested elsewhere in this thread).
1-2 cm^3 is going to seriously limit the consultants who will be able to help you, and the manufacturers who will be able to produce the thing. The consultants specialize in low-volume designs, which typically mean that size and efficiency are not first-order concerns. Likewise, quick-turn PCB houses are not likely to make you 1 or 2 of something this small, as their tooling is not set up for it (not the common case for their market), and I would imagine similar constraints are present on the mechanical/assembly side.
If you feel comfortable learning PCB design, at least to do the non-space-critical "other components", these are some good resources:
http://www.alternatezone.com/electronics/files/PCBDesignTuto... http://www.pcbdesign.org/ http://www.smps.us/pcb-design.html
As far as software, you can try PCB123's (http://www.pcb123.com/) free software if (and only if) you want to use them to manufacture your boards. Otherwise, I'd go with Altium Designer (http://www.altium.com/products/altium-designer/en/altium-des...) (used to be Protel) personally, but other options are gEDA (GPL EDA suite), Orcad, PADS, and Eagle. Other than gEDA (obviously), the for-pay CAD packages are pricey, though there are usually student discounts if that applies to you.
1-2 cm^3 is going to seriously limit the consultants who will be able to help you, and the manufacturers who will be able to produce the thing. The consultants specialize in low-volume designs, which typically mean that size and efficiency are not first-order concerns. Likewise, quick-turn PCB houses are not likely to make you 1 or 2 of something this small, as their tooling is not set up for it (not the common case for their market), and I would imagine similar constraints are present on the mechanical/assembly side.
If you feel comfortable learning PCB design, at least to do the non-space-critical "other components", these are some good resources:
http://www.alternatezone.com/electronics/files/PCBDesignTuto... http://www.pcbdesign.org/ http://www.smps.us/pcb-design.html
As far as software, you can try PCB123's (http://www.pcb123.com/) free software if (and only if) you want to use them to manufacture your boards. Otherwise, I'd go with Altium Designer (http://www.altium.com/products/altium-designer/en/altium-des...) (used to be Protel) personally, but other options are gEDA (GPL EDA suite), Orcad, PADS, and Eagle. Other than gEDA (obviously), the for-pay CAD packages are pricey, though there are usually student discounts if that applies to you.
I am looking for ways to do this kind of prototyping in small volumes 2, 3 or 5 cm3 and I might need to use flexibel PCB how much harder would this be?
Check out the thread currently discussing idea vs. execution. I have no clue what your idea is but I am sure it is just about worthless - as almost all raw ideas are. It sounds like the hard work is in how you will pack it into such a small space.
It will pay you MUCH more to spread your idea to as many people as possible that way you have a chance of connecting with someone else who is excited about the idea also and get the benefit of other peoples thinking
It will pay you MUCH more to spread your idea to as many people as possible that way you have a chance of connecting with someone else who is excited about the idea also and get the benefit of other peoples thinking
I've never used them, but http://www.pad2pad.com/ always seemed like an interesting website. Download their application, design the board, and place an order.
Years ago I worked for a startup that built industrial printing machines (I did the touch screen control panel bit) but the guys sitting next to me we're working on circuit board design. We had our circuit boards pressed by an outside company. The guys were always getting one-offs of different designs made, usually for free as a "sample". If you have an idea of what chips you want, you might want to try phoning up a salesman at a reseller and asking about circuit board pressing too. If they don't do it, they probably know someone who does.
Kenton Oakes ([email protected]) can help you get it done in China, he just spent 4 months there getting another product manufactured and learned a great deal from the experience.
Getting things done here in the States... just getting someone to take the job even with unlimited funds it is next to impossible.
Getting things done here in the States... just getting someone to take the job even with unlimited funds it is next to impossible.
Quite fortuitously, there was an article Friday in BusinessWeek on the subject: http://www.businessweek.com/smallbiz/content/oct2009/sb20091...
I know a guy here in the States who would probably be glad to work up something for you at a reasonable price. My contact info is in my profile if you'd like me to put you in touch with him.
Seeing as this is a physical product, I'm completely lost. The fact it's an electronic device has also hindered my search for information. I've found lots of companies that, when supplied with CAD files, will create a prototype, but they don't seem to do electronic devices. I wouldn't even know how to turn the electronics portion of this into a proper schematic or CAD file.
I'm guessing the most logical thing to do would be to outsource the thing to an overseas engineer to create a proper schematic, and then go to china for production. But, I'd really like to stick to north america if possible.
Has anyone done anything like this on an individual level? Is it even possible?