Show HN: Super Looper – Disco Sequencer App(superlooper.universlabs.co.uk)
superlooper.universlabs.co.uk
Show HN: Super Looper – Disco Sequencer App
http://superlooper.universlabs.co.uk/
36 comments
A bit of quantization (automatically aligning notes to the beat) would really improve this. Not sure how computationally feasible that is though.
Very possible with Flash, Java, etc. in the past.
In JavaScript, in particular if you're not using Chrome? Apparently just about impossible (I haven't seen reliable timing yet).
There are a lot of downsides to embedded Flash, applets, etc., but it's going to be a long time until the things that were possible with plugins a decade ago (including decent timing, and even plugging your MIDI keyboard in as an input for a application like this) are possible without plugins.
I have some faith we'll get there eventually; but it's a frustrating time during the gap.
In JavaScript, in particular if you're not using Chrome? Apparently just about impossible (I haven't seen reliable timing yet).
There are a lot of downsides to embedded Flash, applets, etc., but it's going to be a long time until the things that were possible with plugins a decade ago (including decent timing, and even plugging your MIDI keyboard in as an input for a application like this) are possible without plugins.
I have some faith we'll get there eventually; but it's a frustrating time during the gap.
you have sample level control- why impossible?
i've implemented naive quantization and MIDI control in my own web apps, without plugins...
i've implemented naive quantization and MIDI control in my own web apps, without plugins...
links or it didn't happen. ;)
unfortunately i don't have the code for the step sequencer that used both implementations. but i can share some of the libraries i've released that stemmed from it:
MIDI file parsing/writing/manipulation for js: https://github.com/kn0ll/midi.js
MIDI control for js (requires a server component, wrote this prior to the web MIDI API): https://github.com/kn0ll/midi.io
experimental 3d step sequencer (quantized, naturally): https://github.com/kn0ll/phon2
the issue i had with quantizing captured input is the latency between the device input and the time it's read into the program. this is why i said "naive" quantization. but it works fine for 1/8 steps, and 1/16 steps at most tempos.
MIDI file parsing/writing/manipulation for js: https://github.com/kn0ll/midi.js
MIDI control for js (requires a server component, wrote this prior to the web MIDI API): https://github.com/kn0ll/midi.io
experimental 3d step sequencer (quantized, naturally): https://github.com/kn0ll/phon2
the issue i had with quantizing captured input is the latency between the device input and the time it's read into the program. this is why i said "naive" quantization. but it works fine for 1/8 steps, and 1/16 steps at most tempos.
Ha, I post a cynical complaint like this once every few months, hoping someone will prove me wrong one of these days.
MIDI IO where the keyboard is connected to the server is nifty; not what I meant, though. :)
But I can do without that (or only offer MIDI-in support for people who can run a bridge Java applet); still, the thing I keep looking for is reliable timing for on-the-fly audio (constructed MIDI works for me, I can do that!), and responsive changes based on user input.
Put another way; if you had the spare time, could you fix Vexflow playback[1] so it would actually play on tempo, the first time, in more than just Chrome? (Even in Chrome, it's not reliably solid...) Next, what kind of response time can I get when someone clicks on the UI (a keyboard, or whatever)? Is there a way I can play a MIDI note fast enough that it reliably sounds immediate?
I implemented this stuff in Java 11 years ago, mixing audio samples on the fly, not using MIDI, but I'd be happy to use MIDI if it can mean playing multi-voice audio cleanly and w/o loading a library of audio samples; I've spent enough time working with MIDI as well (as part of handling MIDI input).
I didn't try your phon2 yet (should I?), though I notice the latest checkin comment is about battling with audio choppiness. ;)
[1] http://my.vexflow.com/articles/53?source=enabled find "playback"
MIDI IO where the keyboard is connected to the server is nifty; not what I meant, though. :)
But I can do without that (or only offer MIDI-in support for people who can run a bridge Java applet); still, the thing I keep looking for is reliable timing for on-the-fly audio (constructed MIDI works for me, I can do that!), and responsive changes based on user input.
Put another way; if you had the spare time, could you fix Vexflow playback[1] so it would actually play on tempo, the first time, in more than just Chrome? (Even in Chrome, it's not reliably solid...) Next, what kind of response time can I get when someone clicks on the UI (a keyboard, or whatever)? Is there a way I can play a MIDI note fast enough that it reliably sounds immediate?
I implemented this stuff in Java 11 years ago, mixing audio samples on the fly, not using MIDI, but I'd be happy to use MIDI if it can mean playing multi-voice audio cleanly and w/o loading a library of audio samples; I've spent enough time working with MIDI as well (as part of handling MIDI input).
I didn't try your phon2 yet (should I?), though I notice the latest checkin comment is about battling with audio choppiness. ;)
[1] http://my.vexflow.com/articles/53?source=enabled find "playback"
this is my point though. i recognize there are latency and timing issues but they seem related to playback.
but at any given point, you know what sample is being output. you also know if MIDI is being captured. isn't quantization just an exercise of mapping the input to a quantized sample? which is just a matter of rounding assuming you know your samplerate.
ie. if there are 1000 samples in a measure (entertain me), and you quantized to 1/4, and you capture MIDI while sample 700 is being output, you just map the note to the 750th sample. what am I missing?
just want to be clear my curiosity is genuine, I don't have a deep understanding in dsp or signal analysis or anything. my only knowledge of this stuff is just barely making it work for me. so I'm wondering what I'm missing :)
phon2 is definitely worth a try but I just realized the demo link wasn't working. if you're familiar with grunt it should be a quick setup though :) I also realize a server component for midi is not what anyone had in mind; but the web midi api wasn't implemented at the time I needed a solution.
but at any given point, you know what sample is being output. you also know if MIDI is being captured. isn't quantization just an exercise of mapping the input to a quantized sample? which is just a matter of rounding assuming you know your samplerate.
ie. if there are 1000 samples in a measure (entertain me), and you quantized to 1/4, and you capture MIDI while sample 700 is being output, you just map the note to the 750th sample. what am I missing?
just want to be clear my curiosity is genuine, I don't have a deep understanding in dsp or signal analysis or anything. my only knowledge of this stuff is just barely making it work for me. so I'm wondering what I'm missing :)
phon2 is definitely worth a try but I just realized the demo link wasn't working. if you're familiar with grunt it should be a quick setup though :) I also realize a server component for midi is not what anyone had in mind; but the web midi api wasn't implemented at the time I needed a solution.
> i recognize there are latency and timing issues but they seem related to playback.
No need to get into DSP issues; it's just that playback and input go hand-in-hand.
Think about playing a click track so that someone can enter notes (by clicking on the screen, for a simple example).
If you have varying (audible) latency in your click track, the user can't hear where the beat is (ugh); secondly, even if you capture exactly when they click the screen, your next task is to map that onto when the beat fell. And if you don't know close enough to even quantize reliably, you're stuck.
Next, the latency between "user clicks a note" and "audio plays selected note" needs to be pretty small -- think of the user above playing along with the beat... and so they click the screen, timed exactly when when the sense the next beat will fall. If the actual audio can't be triggered for another 200ms, it just sounds terrible.
The latency I notice in the OP app is particularly bad because it seems to vary a lot -- I can click a key in a very steady rhythm, and it captures a very unsteady beat.
Quantization can't really fix this problem; the delays seem to be uneven enough (and serious enough) that even if it barely managed to figure out "8th notes", mixing in some triplets or grace notes wouldn't go well.
phon2 -- cool, I'll give it a try when I have a bit of free time.
WRT WebMidi -- that's awesome, I hadn't seen the spec appear; I can't rely on it until there's better browser support (it looks like Firefox has only just started initial work on this, for example), but it's certainly also prove another motivator for fixing up audio timing issues all over.
No need to get into DSP issues; it's just that playback and input go hand-in-hand.
Think about playing a click track so that someone can enter notes (by clicking on the screen, for a simple example).
If you have varying (audible) latency in your click track, the user can't hear where the beat is (ugh); secondly, even if you capture exactly when they click the screen, your next task is to map that onto when the beat fell. And if you don't know close enough to even quantize reliably, you're stuck.
Next, the latency between "user clicks a note" and "audio plays selected note" needs to be pretty small -- think of the user above playing along with the beat... and so they click the screen, timed exactly when when the sense the next beat will fall. If the actual audio can't be triggered for another 200ms, it just sounds terrible.
The latency I notice in the OP app is particularly bad because it seems to vary a lot -- I can click a key in a very steady rhythm, and it captures a very unsteady beat.
Quantization can't really fix this problem; the delays seem to be uneven enough (and serious enough) that even if it barely managed to figure out "8th notes", mixing in some triplets or grace notes wouldn't go well.
phon2 -- cool, I'll give it a try when I have a bit of free time.
WRT WebMidi -- that's awesome, I hadn't seen the spec appear; I can't rely on it until there's better browser support (it looks like Firefox has only just started initial work on this, for example), but it's certainly also prove another motivator for fixing up audio timing issues all over.
thanks for such a thoughtful response. I totally grasp the complexity of the issue now.
I guess my confusion then lies in the history that I've never had such drastic playback inconsistency in my applications- so midi input synchronization seemed consistent.
I wonder if this has something to do with lack of complexity in my applications. like you suggested I should definitely read up on these playback issues and why and when they're occurring.
I guess my confusion then lies in the history that I've never had such drastic playback inconsistency in my applications- so midi input synchronization seemed consistent.
I wonder if this has something to do with lack of complexity in my applications. like you suggested I should definitely read up on these playback issues and why and when they're occurring.
http://essej.net/sooperlooper/
Thought it was going to be this (very fun) JACK-based loop-sampler. The name not exactly the same, but it seems close enough to be mildly confusing.
Maybe change the name slightly? (I'm no expert on naming issues; it might just be my lack of coffee)
Thought it was going to be this (very fun) JACK-based loop-sampler. The name not exactly the same, but it seems close enough to be mildly confusing.
Maybe change the name slightly? (I'm no expert on naming issues; it might just be my lack of coffee)
I'm going to turn you in for selling crack. I'm also going to blame you for me getting fired. Thanks for making the next flappy bird. At least for me.
I really liked to play with this. Being able to create "music" without knowing anything about it.
Thought I'd share my tune with you guys and perhaps the person who made this sees it and finds it funny.
Rather catchy if I may say it myself.
http://superlooper.universlabs.co.uk/33un
Thought I'd share my tune with you guys and perhaps the person who made this sees it and finds it funny.
Rather catchy if I may say it myself.
http://superlooper.universlabs.co.uk/33un
Couldn't help but to make another one... http://superlooper.universlabs.co.uk/tFMe
I love how the app fades the notes out when you switch tabs. Very addictive little program.
Very nice!
Is anyone else noticing latency? In particular, keypresses seem slow when another element immediately preceeds them.
This is insanely fun.
Reminds me of Figure, an app (for iPhone) by Propellerhead of Reason fame. See https://www.propellerheads.se/products/figure/.
clicking around the screen without intent has resulted with some more interesting melodies than i had in mind when i started. instruments like this are great for brainstorming.
Excellent fun, but when playing with the keyboard, only one of simultaneous keystrokes is recorded.
Awesome. If you lower the tempo a bit, you can create pretty neat patterns.
Awesome stuff. Would love to be able to save and share à la jsfiddle.
See the "record" button to the left of drums -- I hit it w/o realizing what it was for (and managed to record 5 seconds of just one drum going...), but it seems to let you record a session to share.
Edit: here's what one of the save links give you: http://superlooper.universlabs.co.uk/OHu1
or another that's a bit more spare: http://superlooper.universlabs.co.uk/4wCk
The slightly-missed timings are a bit hard to listen to, but this is great fun.
Edit: here's what one of the save links give you: http://superlooper.universlabs.co.uk/OHu1
or another that's a bit more spare: http://superlooper.universlabs.co.uk/4wCk
The slightly-missed timings are a bit hard to listen to, but this is great fun.
Seems to be lacking any way of knowing where you are in the pattern.
Visible grid lines would be great. It seems there is a 5x2 grid since you can use the Q-P keys on a QWERTY keyboard to access them. Q-T is the top 5 and Y-P is the bottom 5. I found the keys to work much better for more accurate placement and timing.
Anyone else getting audio clipping at the end of samples?
(Windows 7, Firefox 31)
(Windows 7, Firefox 31)
No way to know what keys to hit? Pretty cool though!
Add a beat lock and this thing would be perfectttt
yep. ok. so. thanks. for making me waste my time at work. this was. just. too much fun. :)
Awesome!
hah, awesome! had a beat going in seconds :)
Very Cool
Unfortunatly,your app doesnt hold a straight tempo(in the browser),cool idea,and cool app,but useless if that precondition is not met.
The problem is that even if you trigger something precisely with javascript,the way some browsers handle audio make sequencing totally unreliable.
The problem is that even if you trigger something precisely with javascript,the way some browsers handle audio make sequencing totally unreliable.
"useless" seems a little extreme. the tool is fun and fluid enough that even if it were to vary within 20bpm i would still use it to get stuff out of my head. prototyping.
for what it is, i think the usability issues are more severe (no quantization, inability to modify a sequence, no pre-roll or indicator of where in the loop you are recording, can't seem to play over another track without recording).
for what it is, i think the usability issues are more severe (no quantization, inability to modify a sequence, no pre-roll or indicator of where in the loop you are recording, can't seem to play over another track without recording).
Yeah I have this problem as well. It's very CPU intensive.
Yeah that was frustrating. Very cool tool though!