Ignore No More – lock your child's device until they call you back(ignorenomoreapp.com)
ignorenomoreapp.com
Ignore No More – lock your child's device until they call you back
http://ignorenomoreapp.com/
97 comments
Of course, a parent could also install an app like this as part of a long process of discussion and negotiation wherein the child repeatedly blows off commitments to check in, blows off even lenient curfews, and struggles to hold up his or her side of the agreement. Maybe you think that's unlikely, and maybe it is. But assuming that all parents should share your attitude and that they'll all experience your success at childraising (I assume you've been the parent of a teenager?) is absurd.
I have no plans to use the app (my oldest daughter is 5), but there are plenty of good reasons a sane parent might want to. As well as plenty of bad reasons.
I have no plans to use the app (my oldest daughter is 5), but there are plenty of good reasons a sane parent might want to. As well as plenty of bad reasons.
>What if your significant other installed a similar app on your phone? Would piss you off, right? //
Attempting to equate spousal (or similar) relationships with parent-child relationships suggests you either have no clue about how adults in such a relationship should relate to one-another or you have no clue about parenting.
I've never said any of those unwanted idiomatic phrases but can still see a place in which I would want a child who relies on me to buy their phone and/or keep them safe to be coerced to respond to a contact request.
>In every other situation it's not that critical that you hear their voice //
That doesn't appear to be the point of the app, the point is to coerce a response instead of allowing a person to ignore you but keep using the phone you purchased.
Suppose my child has absconded, ie gone off without telling me where they're going, I'm about to start my shift at work. Do I miss work and try and find them, or do I use this app and "force" them to respond indicating they're safe & well? This app means you can give your kid a smartphone but enforce a usage pattern coterminous with a single-number phone if required. Having a smartphone isn't some sort of inalienable right for a minor.
If you're an adult (eg at university) then buy your own phone and refuse to let people install apps on it; or not, your call.
Attempting to equate spousal (or similar) relationships with parent-child relationships suggests you either have no clue about how adults in such a relationship should relate to one-another or you have no clue about parenting.
I've never said any of those unwanted idiomatic phrases but can still see a place in which I would want a child who relies on me to buy their phone and/or keep them safe to be coerced to respond to a contact request.
>In every other situation it's not that critical that you hear their voice //
That doesn't appear to be the point of the app, the point is to coerce a response instead of allowing a person to ignore you but keep using the phone you purchased.
Suppose my child has absconded, ie gone off without telling me where they're going, I'm about to start my shift at work. Do I miss work and try and find them, or do I use this app and "force" them to respond indicating they're safe & well? This app means you can give your kid a smartphone but enforce a usage pattern coterminous with a single-number phone if required. Having a smartphone isn't some sort of inalienable right for a minor.
If you're an adult (eg at university) then buy your own phone and refuse to let people install apps on it; or not, your call.
> Suppose my child has absconded, ie gone off without telling me where they're going, I'm about to start my shift at work. Do I miss work and try and find them, or do I use this app and "force" them to respond indicating they're safe & well?
This is the equivalent of jerking a dog's leash. It's sad how ready some parents are to deny their children basic human dignity.
If you need to get to work and can't find your child, then whether you go to work or whether you run after your child is a simple matter of setting priorities and following through. Also, if your child takes off without telling you, and you have genuine reason to worry, then there's little reason to think this app will actually be of any help.
The only situation in which this app would "help" would be one where the child is not in any real danger/distress, but you'd still want to reassure yourself of the non-existence of danger (i.e. just calm your nerves), but are too lazy too actually take the steps necessary to do it properly. So lets trample that little human's dignity, for our own selfish desires, since there's only little they can do in return anyways, right?
This is disgusting.
The real tragedy here however is that children don't realize that they're actually the ones with the power in any parent-child relationship, until they've stopped being children and lost the respect for their parents. If they grasped the amount of power they hold, and occasionally jerked their parents around the same way, then these sort of apps most likely wouldn't exist.
This is the equivalent of jerking a dog's leash. It's sad how ready some parents are to deny their children basic human dignity.
If you need to get to work and can't find your child, then whether you go to work or whether you run after your child is a simple matter of setting priorities and following through. Also, if your child takes off without telling you, and you have genuine reason to worry, then there's little reason to think this app will actually be of any help.
The only situation in which this app would "help" would be one where the child is not in any real danger/distress, but you'd still want to reassure yourself of the non-existence of danger (i.e. just calm your nerves), but are too lazy too actually take the steps necessary to do it properly. So lets trample that little human's dignity, for our own selfish desires, since there's only little they can do in return anyways, right?
This is disgusting.
The real tragedy here however is that children don't realize that they're actually the ones with the power in any parent-child relationship, until they've stopped being children and lost the respect for their parents. If they grasped the amount of power they hold, and occasionally jerked their parents around the same way, then these sort of apps most likely wouldn't exist.
> This is the equivalent of jerking a dog's leash. It's sad how ready some parents are to deny their children basic human dignity.
Basic dignity? It's not their phones.
If you possess a work phone, and never respond to your bosses call there are consequences: you get fired, lose your income, and may soon find yourself on the streets in destitution.
If you possess a family phone, its not yours either and so you might expect consequences if you don't respond to the owners of it.
The alternative to this app is just taking away the kids phone, or grounding them (i.e imprisoning them). This is a bare slap on the wrist compared to all that.
Basic dignity? It's not their phones.
If you possess a work phone, and never respond to your bosses call there are consequences: you get fired, lose your income, and may soon find yourself on the streets in destitution.
If you possess a family phone, its not yours either and so you might expect consequences if you don't respond to the owners of it.
The alternative to this app is just taking away the kids phone, or grounding them (i.e imprisoning them). This is a bare slap on the wrist compared to all that.
> It's not their phones.
No, it's not - because they have no sensible way for providing for themselves and you have a legal obligation to provide them with the things they need for everyday life.
The food they eat also isn't theirs, but that doesn't make it alright for you to first spit into it, before serving it to them, in order for you to blow off steam.
The roof over their head also isn't theirs, but that doesn't make it alright for you to make them sleep on the street because you're too tired of them keeping you up at night.
> If you possess a work phone, and never respond to your bosses call there are consequences
Not responding to calls on your work phone may result in you getting fired, but it will not result in you being humiliated (at least not directly). From what I've seen there's a fair amount of people not responding to some calls in some situations as a way of playing the "office politics" game - so it seems for many people this is a reasonable tradeoff they engage in at times in order to advance their interests.
Also, for better or worse, there's no formal way to "quit" your family and go be the child of other, possibly better, parents. Hence, parents don't really compete on who's able to provide the best family. (Though for some reason some of them seem to compete on who's got the most obedient child.)
> The alternative to this app is just taking away the kids phone, or grounding them (i.e imprisoning them).
The analogy is lacking.
There are humongous barriers to actually get someone into prison. Simply talking back to someone, or failing to pay attention to them won't suffice to land in prison, but may very well suffice for getting grounded. Also, there's no due process for children when being grounded (There's not even any official written record of the rules that can get you grounded). But then again, grounding really is a very very mild version of imprisonment, so there's not much issue with leaving it up the parents discretion - it's just that it's a bad analogy.
But still, imprisonment, as you might have noticed, actually is a valid disciplinary measure in modern societies and at every point throughout its enforcement care is taken to protect the prisoner's dignity as a human. Of course, in reality things aren't always that rosy everywhere.. but at least the theory is sound.
Putting people on a leash, on the other hand, isn't a valid disciplinary measure - or at least it hasn't been any more for quite some time in civilized societies.
> This is a bare slap on the wrist compared to all that.
No, humiliating someone is not alright, regardless of circumstances.
If proper punishments need to be dealt out (like grounding), or proper safeguards need to be put in place (like taking away the phone), then do that.
But deluding yourself that putting someone on a leash, because you feel that the infraction doesn't actually warrant the punishment, but you're also too lazy to actually educate your child on why not to do it again, or deal with the consequences of it happening again, is not alright.
No, it's not - because they have no sensible way for providing for themselves and you have a legal obligation to provide them with the things they need for everyday life.
The food they eat also isn't theirs, but that doesn't make it alright for you to first spit into it, before serving it to them, in order for you to blow off steam.
The roof over their head also isn't theirs, but that doesn't make it alright for you to make them sleep on the street because you're too tired of them keeping you up at night.
> If you possess a work phone, and never respond to your bosses call there are consequences
Not responding to calls on your work phone may result in you getting fired, but it will not result in you being humiliated (at least not directly). From what I've seen there's a fair amount of people not responding to some calls in some situations as a way of playing the "office politics" game - so it seems for many people this is a reasonable tradeoff they engage in at times in order to advance their interests.
Also, for better or worse, there's no formal way to "quit" your family and go be the child of other, possibly better, parents. Hence, parents don't really compete on who's able to provide the best family. (Though for some reason some of them seem to compete on who's got the most obedient child.)
> The alternative to this app is just taking away the kids phone, or grounding them (i.e imprisoning them).
The analogy is lacking.
There are humongous barriers to actually get someone into prison. Simply talking back to someone, or failing to pay attention to them won't suffice to land in prison, but may very well suffice for getting grounded. Also, there's no due process for children when being grounded (There's not even any official written record of the rules that can get you grounded). But then again, grounding really is a very very mild version of imprisonment, so there's not much issue with leaving it up the parents discretion - it's just that it's a bad analogy.
But still, imprisonment, as you might have noticed, actually is a valid disciplinary measure in modern societies and at every point throughout its enforcement care is taken to protect the prisoner's dignity as a human. Of course, in reality things aren't always that rosy everywhere.. but at least the theory is sound.
Putting people on a leash, on the other hand, isn't a valid disciplinary measure - or at least it hasn't been any more for quite some time in civilized societies.
> This is a bare slap on the wrist compared to all that.
No, humiliating someone is not alright, regardless of circumstances.
If proper punishments need to be dealt out (like grounding), or proper safeguards need to be put in place (like taking away the phone), then do that.
But deluding yourself that putting someone on a leash, because you feel that the infraction doesn't actually warrant the punishment, but you're also too lazy to actually educate your child on why not to do it again, or deal with the consequences of it happening again, is not alright.
I think you're being a bit hyperbolic if you say that locking someones cell phone is the same as putting them on the leash.
You make a few valid points there, but in essence I think we disagree on the severity of punishments.
I'd say being grounded is far worse than having your phone locked, yet you'd call it a fair punishment that should come first.
I'd also say that a cellular phone isn't essential to life, like food is. While you might see many middle/upper class children with phones, they're still a luxury item.
You make a few valid points there, but in essence I think we disagree on the severity of punishments.
I'd say being grounded is far worse than having your phone locked, yet you'd call it a fair punishment that should come first.
I'd also say that a cellular phone isn't essential to life, like food is. While you might see many middle/upper class children with phones, they're still a luxury item.
> Suppose my child has absconded, ie gone off without telling me where they're going, I'm about to start my shift at work. Do I miss work and try and find them, or do I use this app and "force" them to respond indicating they're safe & well?
I think what the parent is trying to suggest is that you go to work and not try to find them. If they're old enough not to require constant supervision, they'll come around.
I think what the parent is trying to suggest is that you go to work and not try to find them. If they're old enough not to require constant supervision, they'll come around.
What if you just need to talk to them, and you know they're blatantly ignoring you for no good reason?
What would you do if you faced this situation with an adult?
People of all ages -- children and adults -- respond to incentives. Incent them to talk to you and they'll do it.
People of all ages -- children and adults -- respond to incentives. Incent them to talk to you and they'll do it.
Fire them. Divorce them. Hire a private detective.
But this product is for kids, and the rules are different.
But this product is for kids, and the rules are different.
Most of people here had a childhood without cellphones (aka dog leach) and managed very well to survive without permanent parent surveillance. Would my parents, for example, have had less headaches/worries with this app? For sure I wouldn't have liked something like this.
Of course this app can be useful in some exceptional cases but not in standard ones.
Of course this app can be useful in some exceptional cases but not in standard ones.
I find some of your content presumptuous, but overall, I agree that, if you tell a child to check in or be home at a certain time, this app won't solve insubordination. Either lock them in at home, have a real chat about it in person, etc., but this novel locking mechanism isn't going to solve the problem.
>Emotions are weird, if you're sitting around worrying about your child then you need a hobby.
If you're worried about your pre-teen while he/she is out roaming the city, you're a good parent. It doesn't mean you have to be freaking out all the time, but my parents cared enough to be concerned if I didn't check in at the deemed intervals.
>Emotions are weird, if you're sitting around worrying about your child then you need a hobby.
If you're worried about your pre-teen while he/she is out roaming the city, you're a good parent. It doesn't mean you have to be freaking out all the time, but my parents cared enough to be concerned if I didn't check in at the deemed intervals.
Scoutmaster for 20 years. I told my boys, make your mother happy and we can do anything. If she wants you to call every hour, then call every hour. If she wants you to ride only in my car and no other parents', then we'll do that. If she says take a jumbo bottle of sunscreen, take the bottle and we'll work it out on the trail.
What I find more interesting about this, besides the fact you can block your kids' phones, is the amount of effort put into the creation and marketing of it.
I mean - as far as I can tell [0] this is the only app this person has done, but they've created the website, set up a company, and I even heard about this on the UK BBC news! And at the moment they only have about 100 downloads?!
It would be interesting to hear the story behind this and how much this all cost. Does anyone know more? How did they manage to get such exposure on launch day/week?
[0] reading http://ignorenomoreapp.com/mountaineer-technology-ventures
I mean - as far as I can tell [0] this is the only app this person has done, but they've created the website, set up a company, and I even heard about this on the UK BBC news! And at the moment they only have about 100 downloads?!
It would be interesting to hear the story behind this and how much this all cost. Does anyone know more? How did they manage to get such exposure on launch day/week?
[0] reading http://ignorenomoreapp.com/mountaineer-technology-ventures
They should sell their marketing services rather than this app. To get such quick publicity for something like this, either they have great marketing skills, a bunch of $, or both. Either way, it would be nice to see how they did it.
I'm seeing 5-10k installs on the Play store. Still not much for something that has caught this level of media attention.
In my experience many adults (meaning everyone over 35 at this point) seem to have an irrational attachment to phone calls, when texting or email would suffice or be better. This is just a manifestation of that mentality. If you encourage your kid to text you it's much more likely they'll communicate, largely because it can be done quickly and discreetly.
Given the problems I've heard about with app store purchases from parents in this target market there's zero chance of this actually working, and I'd be surprised if any parent in the target group even believes it would work either.
Given the problems I've heard about with app store purchases from parents in this target market there's zero chance of this actually working, and I'd be surprised if any parent in the target group even believes it would work either.
The developer must have hired a great P.R. company because yesterday our local TV news was covering it. Now it's on HN!?!
Read the FAQ and you'll get an idea of the brains (or lack thereof) behind this app: http://ignorenomoreapp.com/faq
"Q: My child ignored my instructions and selected “OK” to the pop-up request to “Disable Device Admin”. How do I restore Ignore No More on their phone?"
"A: I know, I know let me guess the child said, “It was an accident”. First you need to check to see if Ignore No More is still on their phone. If it is then that’s great news. All you have to do is select the device’s Settings icon>Security>Device (or Phone) Administrators where you will then see an empty box beside of Ignore No More Device Admin. Select the empty box; a pop-up will appear, select “Activate”. Ignore No More is now restored on the child’s phone. On the other hand, if the child deleted the app entirely from their phone you will need to download again from the app store."
Read the FAQ and you'll get an idea of the brains (or lack thereof) behind this app: http://ignorenomoreapp.com/faq
"Q: My child ignored my instructions and selected “OK” to the pop-up request to “Disable Device Admin”. How do I restore Ignore No More on their phone?"
"A: I know, I know let me guess the child said, “It was an accident”. First you need to check to see if Ignore No More is still on their phone. If it is then that’s great news. All you have to do is select the device’s Settings icon>Security>Device (or Phone) Administrators where you will then see an empty box beside of Ignore No More Device Admin. Select the empty box; a pop-up will appear, select “Activate”. Ignore No More is now restored on the child’s phone. On the other hand, if the child deleted the app entirely from their phone you will need to download again from the app store."
This app would put whatever rocky relationship I had with my mother on even rockier ground.
The biggest flaw is that the child may not be ignoring the parent, but simply can't call at that time. Perhaps the kid's phone is in their bag or they are in class or something.
To lock the kid's phone based on an assumption of guilt is like punishing the kid for not eating his vegetables before dinner is served.
The biggest flaw is that the child may not be ignoring the parent, but simply can't call at that time. Perhaps the kid's phone is in their bag or they are in class or something.
To lock the kid's phone based on an assumption of guilt is like punishing the kid for not eating his vegetables before dinner is served.
Not to mention you may be preventing them from getting important help from other sources.
Or you take their phone away when they don't call you back; or ground them. It seems to me that having an enforced version of that won't actually promote responsible behavior as much as more traditional punishments.
This is ridiculous - really more like "Teach your child how to jailbreak his device". I know this holds true of me, but I truly can't stand talking on the phone with anyone - I much prefer just a simple text message. My parents/baby-boomers can't stand this, in my experience - for some reason they need the actual call. I think this would be more effective if it unlocked after a text message back.
It's very rare that an app inspires as much rage in me as this one has. I'm not sure if it is the over the top self praising tone of the FAQ, or the fact that this will be such an amazing tool for abusive parents, or the fact that this is a great way to condition children to obey unconditionally, but seriously, this app makes me irrationally angry.
Some parents are assholes. Some kids have other things going on and don't need a helicopter constantly hovering over top of them. And some media outlets need to learn to be critical of the crap that they flog.
Even if the FAQ included some child abuse/help lines, I'd be significantly less angry. But seriously, this app looks like a red flag for extraordinarily controlling parents. And, there is a bunch of research that indicates extremely controlling behaviour is a sign of abuse. What if, as an entire industry, we decide to always err on the side of protecting kids??
Sorry for the rant. I've edited this several times to tone things down, but this app makes me intensely angry. If there is any justice, the app store will remove this garbage.
Some parents are assholes. Some kids have other things going on and don't need a helicopter constantly hovering over top of them. And some media outlets need to learn to be critical of the crap that they flog.
Even if the FAQ included some child abuse/help lines, I'd be significantly less angry. But seriously, this app looks like a red flag for extraordinarily controlling parents. And, there is a bunch of research that indicates extremely controlling behaviour is a sign of abuse. What if, as an entire industry, we decide to always err on the side of protecting kids??
Sorry for the rant. I've edited this several times to tone things down, but this app makes me intensely angry. If there is any justice, the app store will remove this garbage.
I often feel when reading discussions about parenting that posters should be required to list the number and ages of their children. If you're spouting off about how terrible and awful this is, lack of trust, etc, etc, and you haven't been there, your opinion on the matter has a value approaching zero to a stressed out parent.
That said, I don't think this is the greatest of ideas, but I can see cases where it could be a useful tool in parenting. And it is a tool, not a solution that replaces an open dialogue with your kids. Grayclhn said it best[1]: "Of course, a parent could also install an app like this as part of a long process of discussion and negotiation wherein the child repeatedly blows off commitments to check in, blows off even lenient curfews, and struggles to hold up his or her side of the agreement."
Agreed that it is something that is ripe for abuse and helicopter parenting.
(Parent of girl 15, boy 12.)
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8197401
That said, I don't think this is the greatest of ideas, but I can see cases where it could be a useful tool in parenting. And it is a tool, not a solution that replaces an open dialogue with your kids. Grayclhn said it best[1]: "Of course, a parent could also install an app like this as part of a long process of discussion and negotiation wherein the child repeatedly blows off commitments to check in, blows off even lenient curfews, and struggles to hold up his or her side of the agreement."
Agreed that it is something that is ripe for abuse and helicopter parenting.
(Parent of girl 15, boy 12.)
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8197401
I find the negativity about this surprising.
I live in a low income area - you would wish many parents around here cared this much and would helicopter their kids. I fear many of them are doomed from the start.
I think this app is a last resort measure, not like a block on computer use but if the kid is being bad about something to get them to respond.
I live in a low income area - you would wish many parents around here cared this much and would helicopter their kids. I fear many of them are doomed from the start.
I think this app is a last resort measure, not like a block on computer use but if the kid is being bad about something to get them to respond.
Being controlling is not the same thing as caring.
While it's nice to see other applications using the Device Administrator's API, I fail to see what advantage this provides over Google's implementation [1].
[1]: https://www.google.com/android/devicemanager
[1]: https://www.google.com/android/devicemanager
Q: Why won’t the message “Ignore No More!” go away once my child has used the password to unlock their phone?
A: Don’t worry their phone is unlocked. “Ignore No More!” stays visible to your child to help you. The message is a constant reminder to them to answer your calls and texts or else you will lock their phone. If you don’t want to use this feature and want the message to go away, simply open up the parent My Household page and press “Unlock Phone” for that child. Once the child refreshes their screen the message will be gone.
If you market to helicopter parents, that's one thing. If you market to parents who actively enjoy being mean to their children, you should maybe overthink your business model.
A: Don’t worry their phone is unlocked. “Ignore No More!” stays visible to your child to help you. The message is a constant reminder to them to answer your calls and texts or else you will lock their phone. If you don’t want to use this feature and want the message to go away, simply open up the parent My Household page and press “Unlock Phone” for that child. Once the child refreshes their screen the message will be gone.
If you market to helicopter parents, that's one thing. If you market to parents who actively enjoy being mean to their children, you should maybe overthink your business model.
Language is weird, and it's always interesting to see the way people spell things that they've only ever heard, often picking completely different words to construct sentences that sound kinda right but don't actually make any sense with the words they've used (there's a guy here who says "properly" whenever he means to say "probably" for instance).
This is the first time I've seen anybody substitute their own made up word (notta') for nada though.
This is the first time I've seen anybody substitute their own made up word (notta') for nada though.
Another way to do it would be to stop offering a free phone plan, or free rent for that matter. What kind of self respect do you have if you're letting a teenager whose lifestyle you're subsidizing treat you like this?
Hmmm, here's a business idea - install the app on as many phones as you can (remote exploits, free apps in stores) and demand monthly payments to keep them unlocked.
I should come out with an app that disables this app, and charge something like $5 for it.
Somewhat surprising there is no Facebook backlash yet... this is a horrible product.
Hah, the FAQ reads like you're trying to keep pests out of your house.
Very very clever. Grew up before mobile phones existed so it is hard to relate but I guess if a kid has to have a phone, this helps.
Of course nothing stops the kid from lying to their parents which I guess 99% of all kids do.
Of course nothing stops the kid from lying to their parents which I guess 99% of all kids do.
Kids will have to explain to their parents how to install it.
Or show them how they removed it.
Or show them how they removed it.
I like these projects to get more children interested in hacking!
Looks great! one thing, you have a nice carousel going on, and maybe I'm a slow reader but I had to make it go back to the last slide three times before I finished reading it. Consider either making the carousel change slower or better yet, make the story vertical.
if you have this problem with your child, an app is not the solution. you have serious discipline problems.
I agree the app isn't a solution to disicpline problems, but the problem of a child not calling back is not really a discipline issue. If you have proper trust and be sure to not over-check the child, this isn't as much of an issue - 'hey, that's my mom, she doesn't usually call, i better answer this' is Very easy when the kid has proof. It is also pretty easy to talk to a child to see why they might not have called back and explain why answering from parents is important It also seems that perhaps parents should try switching to text or whatever the child's preferred method of communication - being flexible might bring better responses. None of this is due to actual discipline problems, just miscommunication or inflexible parenting.
I don't think you or jpfielding have any real experience raising kids. That's pretty clear from your smug assumption that children are reasonable people who will see the error of their ways if only their parents took the time to explain it to them and pander to whatever way the child wants to go about subverting parental authority.
Let me clue you into reality. When kids pop out, they are uncivilized savages. It takes a good 25 years (on average) before they stop acting like savages and start resembling a reasonable human being. A reasonable person does not require an explanation as to why answering a call from a parent is important, they just answer it because they are reasonable and civilized and know automatically that answering such a call is the right thing to do in the civilized world. A reasonable person also does not require others to pander to their "preferred method of communication", they just pick up the phone and deal with whatever's on the other end.
Teenagers with phones are like hungry cavemen with shotguns. There has to be a way to pull the plug before things get out of hand and dumb stuff happens. This app is part of the solution. If a teenager's trumped up, uncivilized sense of independence is telling them to disrespect their parents and not answer their call, then this app is a useful tool for parents. The correct mode of operation, of course, is to prompt the child to call their parents so the parents can then tell the child that they're coming to pick them up immediately, and to have the phone ready to hand in because they're never going to see it again. The child should also prepare to have their wings clipped.
Unreasonable savagery can not be made civilized through reasonable discussion. That's why economic sanctions, bombs falling from airplanes, and smartphone crippling apps are still effective tools for civilized people.
Let me clue you into reality. When kids pop out, they are uncivilized savages. It takes a good 25 years (on average) before they stop acting like savages and start resembling a reasonable human being. A reasonable person does not require an explanation as to why answering a call from a parent is important, they just answer it because they are reasonable and civilized and know automatically that answering such a call is the right thing to do in the civilized world. A reasonable person also does not require others to pander to their "preferred method of communication", they just pick up the phone and deal with whatever's on the other end.
Teenagers with phones are like hungry cavemen with shotguns. There has to be a way to pull the plug before things get out of hand and dumb stuff happens. This app is part of the solution. If a teenager's trumped up, uncivilized sense of independence is telling them to disrespect their parents and not answer their call, then this app is a useful tool for parents. The correct mode of operation, of course, is to prompt the child to call their parents so the parents can then tell the child that they're coming to pick them up immediately, and to have the phone ready to hand in because they're never going to see it again. The child should also prepare to have their wings clipped.
Unreasonable savagery can not be made civilized through reasonable discussion. That's why economic sanctions, bombs falling from airplanes, and smartphone crippling apps are still effective tools for civilized people.
It's strange. Everyone who's had a child is an expert on parenting.
Yours is just one data point. Here's another: it's perfectly possible to actually trust teenagers without regarding them as savages, while still catching the bad stuff that inevitably happens.
Different cultures tend to raise their kids differently. Many North American disciplinary actions are downright illegal here. Our kids still turn out fine.
Yours is just one data point. Here's another: it's perfectly possible to actually trust teenagers without regarding them as savages, while still catching the bad stuff that inevitably happens.
Different cultures tend to raise their kids differently. Many North American disciplinary actions are downright illegal here. Our kids still turn out fine.
Oh, look! Another Hacker News pedant come to pick meaningless holes in someone's comment.
I didn't say I was an expert on parenting. Did I?
Did I also say that teenagers are always and everywhere uncivilized savages? No. I made one over-the-top statement equating teenagers with cavemen, so I guess that's worth pointing out because it obviously proves that my entire comment was wrong, especially since that one statement can't be applied universally across time and space. Jeez...
Look, I've seen more than a few reasonable teenagers, but that's only because I roll with orthodox Catholics who actually believe what the Catholic Church teaches (without whining about it), and believe it's important to teach their kids how to be civilized. It's noteworthy that those teenagers only have dumbphones, if they have a cellphone at all.
So what if different cultures raise their kids differently? How does that negate anything I said? The children of one culture are born just as uncivilized as the children of any other culture. Civilization comes only from hard work. If you're a parent, imparting civilization to the uncivilized requires the right tools. If you're ok with giving your kid a smartphone, then it makes sense to have a tool to reel them back in when they can't resist the urge to abuse the freedom you've given them.
So, go take your pedantic inability to reason clearly, and participate more fully in whatever culture of deficient civility into which you were unfortunate to be born. I'm sure it'll turn out fine.
I didn't say I was an expert on parenting. Did I?
Did I also say that teenagers are always and everywhere uncivilized savages? No. I made one over-the-top statement equating teenagers with cavemen, so I guess that's worth pointing out because it obviously proves that my entire comment was wrong, especially since that one statement can't be applied universally across time and space. Jeez...
Look, I've seen more than a few reasonable teenagers, but that's only because I roll with orthodox Catholics who actually believe what the Catholic Church teaches (without whining about it), and believe it's important to teach their kids how to be civilized. It's noteworthy that those teenagers only have dumbphones, if they have a cellphone at all.
So what if different cultures raise their kids differently? How does that negate anything I said? The children of one culture are born just as uncivilized as the children of any other culture. Civilization comes only from hard work. If you're a parent, imparting civilization to the uncivilized requires the right tools. If you're ok with giving your kid a smartphone, then it makes sense to have a tool to reel them back in when they can't resist the urge to abuse the freedom you've given them.
So, go take your pedantic inability to reason clearly, and participate more fully in whatever culture of deficient civility into which you were unfortunate to be born. I'm sure it'll turn out fine.
"I've seen more than a few reasonable teenagers, but that's only because I roll with orthodox Catholics who actually believe what the Catholic Church teaches"
Today, like in the 1500s, Catholicism saving the world from the "uncivilized savages". Hilarious.
Today, like in the 1500s, Catholicism saving the world from the "uncivilized savages". Hilarious.
That's right. In all of history, the single most civilizing influence on the world has been the Catholic Church. Even with all the abuses and excesses, I don't think this can reasonably be denied.
Dude, children aren't little savages.
The things you say, they do not hold true across cultures. Sure, things should be developmentally adjusted and it is true that people's brain develops until around 25, but none of this at all makes them savages.
Watch classrooms. Teachers that treat students like savages get savages as students. Teachers that talk in a reasonable way to students (adjusted for kids understanding) tend to have better behaved students.
Sorry, man. Children aren't savages. Like adults, a few wind up bad, but most... nah.
The things you say, they do not hold true across cultures. Sure, things should be developmentally adjusted and it is true that people's brain develops until around 25, but none of this at all makes them savages.
Watch classrooms. Teachers that treat students like savages get savages as students. Teachers that talk in a reasonable way to students (adjusted for kids understanding) tend to have better behaved students.
Sorry, man. Children aren't savages. Like adults, a few wind up bad, but most... nah.
By definition, they are uncivilized savages. They are born not knowing how to behave in a civilized way. They also act like it too, from time to time.
Note that I explicitly and carefully said: "Unreasonable savagery can not be made civilized through reasonable discussion." The only reason that children can be taught to be civilized is because they do have some faculties of reason, and those abilities get stronger with age and appropriate training. When they are young, children learn best by imitation. So, of course, if a parent acts like savage, the child will too.
However, what we were talking about was the appropriate response to those times of "unreasonable savagery". So stop being a pedant, and changing the subject. Is a smartphone crippling app an appropriate tool for a parent to use in response to a teenager who is acting like an uncivilized tool? Absolutely. Is your view on children disconnected from reality? Absolutely. Do you also have wacky views on crime and punishment? I'm going to say yes there too.
Note that I explicitly and carefully said: "Unreasonable savagery can not be made civilized through reasonable discussion." The only reason that children can be taught to be civilized is because they do have some faculties of reason, and those abilities get stronger with age and appropriate training. When they are young, children learn best by imitation. So, of course, if a parent acts like savage, the child will too.
However, what we were talking about was the appropriate response to those times of "unreasonable savagery". So stop being a pedant, and changing the subject. Is a smartphone crippling app an appropriate tool for a parent to use in response to a teenager who is acting like an uncivilized tool? Absolutely. Is your view on children disconnected from reality? Absolutely. Do you also have wacky views on crime and punishment? I'm going to say yes there too.
How ageist of you. Teens are savages and not really people, so it is totally cool if we walk all over their autonomy as people and dehumanize them.
Shouldn't parenting be about trust?
Agreed.
Also, going to be funny when they work out how to uninstall it.
Also, going to be funny when they work out how to uninstall it.
Hell, uninstalling is mild. Set the parent phone to a child phone and vice versa, all you need is to guess that password. I wonder if it's the same as their email account?
From their FAQ, looks like that would need you to deregister and reregister the phone. Still, as in my experience most parents (mine and others I'm familiar with) leave their phones lying around without a password so much of the time (or else likely use weak ones such as their date of birth or similar), that isn't exactly hard.
I've also accidentally shoulder surfed dozens of random people's (patterns on android are particularly easy as by default it shows the full trace; ios7 is also easy as the buttons are very high contrast) where I had zero intention to just because they aren't careful about who can see the screen when they unlock.
Of course, given the poor security of so many mobile apps, I wouldn't be surprised if there's a way to reverse engineer the protocol to lock a 'parent' phone. Then, of course, the child can feign ignorance with "but I thought that wasn't possible".
I've also accidentally shoulder surfed dozens of random people's (patterns on android are particularly easy as by default it shows the full trace; ios7 is also easy as the buttons are very high contrast) where I had zero intention to just because they aren't careful about who can see the screen when they unlock.
Of course, given the poor security of so many mobile apps, I wouldn't be surprised if there's a way to reverse engineer the protocol to lock a 'parent' phone. Then, of course, the child can feign ignorance with "but I thought that wasn't possible".
I don't trust unreasonable savages. Neither should you.
Products like this are great, as they teach children how to get around stupid arbitrary restrictions from a young age, so are less likely to end up as drooling passive consumers poking at a tablet and more likely to become hackers.
My mom installed a program on our computer when I was younger that only let you use it for a limited amount of time (my limit was usually 30 minutes a day).
We broke through that thing so many times that the company gave us a refund and hired me as a "security contractor" to find ways around it. I found a few that they never figured out how to beat - for example opening a document in Word, typing some stuff, and telling the computer to shut down. Windows would shut down all of the other programs (including the computer time monitoring one) before it shut down Word. Word would come up with it's "save/don't save/cancel" prompt and you could just click "cancel." That was arguably my first foray into "hacking."
We broke through that thing so many times that the company gave us a refund and hired me as a "security contractor" to find ways around it. I found a few that they never figured out how to beat - for example opening a document in Word, typing some stuff, and telling the computer to shut down. Windows would shut down all of the other programs (including the computer time monitoring one) before it shut down Word. Word would come up with it's "save/don't save/cancel" prompt and you could just click "cancel." That was arguably my first foray into "hacking."
It's because companies that sell products like this sell what makes a good sales pitch; they don't understand that things need to actually work as advertised.
can't help but smile at that story.
Well, they teach children to google for the answer - which is basically a top life skill at this point. Very few would need to understand the steps, the possible consequences etc so I'm not sure it'll lead to deeper interest or understanding
Exactly! I learned what a BIOS is and does the first time in my life the moment my parents put a BIOS password on the PC. My first rough workaround was to open the case, remove the CMOS battery and reset a pin. Then I found an easier workaround using the DOS debug tool to trigger a BIOS reset with the IO ports 70 and 71 :)
I used to write my BIOS password on a piece of paper and stick it inside the case. It was only there to prevent casual snooping.
danah boyd has a (free) book on the responses of teens to network parenting, http://www.danah.org/itscomplicated/
Edit: corrected name capitalization
Edit: corrected name capitalization
Huh, I have never seen this, thanks!
(OT nitpick: her name is actually 'danah boyd' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danah_Boyd#Early_life)
(OT nitpick: her name is actually 'danah boyd' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danah_Boyd#Early_life)
OT nitpick: It's not actually her name, it's the name she prefers for political and aesthetical reasons, and the most civil and polite thing to do is to accommodate that preference. But her actual name is Danah Boyd, just like Snoop Doggs actual name is Calvin Cordozar Broadus, Jr.
from http://www.danah.org/name.html:
in the summer of 2000, i finally had legal paperwork acknowledging my name as i saw fit: danah michele boyd[deleted]
Thanks for pointing that out, fixed.
Sounds interesting. From the looks of it, it should probably be required to read for anyone in government or becoming a parent. The government here loves pandering to helicopter parents, unfortunately, and wasting huge amounts of taxpayer money on schemes with poor uptake and even worse effectiveness instead of spending less money on education that would actually prove effective with a sensible outcome.
Edit: Free on her site, taking a look now.
Edit: Free on her site, taking a look now.
>more likely to become hackers //
Isn't it only the ones who are already likely to become hackers that will circumvent the devices in relatively complex ways? Curtailment of liberties is entirely normal for us as it's a simple aspect of our environment.
Isn't it only the ones who are already likely to become hackers that will circumvent the devices in relatively complex ways? Curtailment of liberties is entirely normal for us as it's a simple aspect of our environment.
Ransomware improves parent-child communication?
Better: analytics dashboard on latency of response.
Suppression of emotional signals (response latency) is unlikely to improve communication and could lead to second-order consequences "If you treat me like ___, I will behave like ___".
Better: analytics dashboard on latency of response.
Suppression of emotional signals (response latency) is unlikely to improve communication and could lead to second-order consequences "If you treat me like ___, I will behave like ___".
Wow that's disgusting.
Danger: the front page says the child will always be able to call "first responders," but the FAQ reveals that 911 is the only built-in one which the child cannot change. If you live outside the US, 911 may not work, leaving your child unable to dial emergency services.
Adding 112 and 999 to the list would help, but perhaps it's better to just let the kid call whomever they like, and just block "fun" things like texting and other apps. After all, if your kid is out with friends and gets a bit lost, the best person to call will be one of those friends, not the police.
Adding 112 and 999 to the list would help, but perhaps it's better to just let the kid call whomever they like, and just block "fun" things like texting and other apps. After all, if your kid is out with friends and gets a bit lost, the best person to call will be one of those friends, not the police.
Hilariously, there's actually nothing stopping the kid phoning whoever they want. It's controlled by a contact group on the phone, that the child device can edit at will. Step 1 would be to add all friends to that group.
Ha. I guess I'll put it on my son's phone and tell him that there is a "solution" to fully defeat the app. Make a game out of it. (and I'll tell him Mom won't know)
PS this is how you build trust with your kids.
PS this is how you build trust with your kids.
> this is how you build trust with your kids
By turning your partner into a common enemy?
By turning your partner into a common enemy?
No, by playing a game.
Kids don't use phones to make voice calls, grandpa, for much the same reason they don't use morse code, or smoke signals.
911 works in the UK, I imagine it's the same for most to cater for those a little too engrossed in US films/TV
Just as an aside, I dont know about other countries but both 911 and 112 work in the UK.
The app is only available in the US appstore for now.
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Because restricting to GeoIP really works well, right? Oh wait, even many users know how to use a proxy to get Iplayer/Pandora/Netflix from another country - there are even dedicated products for this purpose.
Apple handles the restriction, not via GeoIP, but via the credit card attached to the account.
WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN, YOUNG MAN? WHY WERE YOU IGNORING MY CALLS?
checks GPS log, sees school
does child's homework for him
applies to college for him
goes on job interviews for him
checks GPS log, sees school
does child's homework for him
applies to college for him
goes on job interviews for him
> goes on job interviews for him
One of my previous employers regaled me with a tale of a parent coming in for an interview with their child. Needless to say, neither got the job.
One of my previous employers regaled me with a tale of a parent coming in for an interview with their child. Needless to say, neither got the job.
god mom at this rate you're not going to close my Series A for me by 14
The perfect app for helicopter parenting, be sure to tell your child you don't trust them as they leave the door.
I'm sure this would be a good product commercially.
The FAQ is a bit jarring, most of it seems to be self praise.
I'm sure this would be a good product commercially.
The FAQ is a bit jarring, most of it seems to be self praise.
>The perfect app for helicopter parenting //
Alternatively the perfect app to allow you to let your children have freedom to go out by themselves but still to coerce response when it's needed.
It seems a reasonable quid pro quo to me - I give you this tool which is the pinnacle of consumer communication devices but if I need to talk to you then it's locked until you respond.
Doesn't it mean that children who aren't so trustworthy get the benefit of being allowed out when otherwise they wouldn't?
Alternatively the perfect app to allow you to let your children have freedom to go out by themselves but still to coerce response when it's needed.
It seems a reasonable quid pro quo to me - I give you this tool which is the pinnacle of consumer communication devices but if I need to talk to you then it's locked until you respond.
Doesn't it mean that children who aren't so trustworthy get the benefit of being allowed out when otherwise they wouldn't?
I haven't tried it, but isn't this trivial to disable by just booting into safe mode and uninstalling the app?
Yep. With root, you can even just disable administrators without allowing them to hijack the attempt.
Actually, letting apps hijack the normal disabling of their administrative functions is a massive vuln, as then any piece of malware can do that to prevent it from being removed.
The funny thing is, Android's safe mode isn't that well publicised (I knew it existed, but would have to look up how to enter it), but if apps like this ever proliferated, it definitely would become well known. See how in the UK, since TPB got censored, there are now literally hundreds of reverse proxies available, and since the government pushed 'opt-out' censorship, there are now dozens of proxies explicitly marketed for defeating them, and more and more sites are switching to use TLS.
Actually, letting apps hijack the normal disabling of their administrative functions is a massive vuln, as then any piece of malware can do that to prevent it from being removed.
The funny thing is, Android's safe mode isn't that well publicised (I knew it existed, but would have to look up how to enter it), but if apps like this ever proliferated, it definitely would become well known. See how in the UK, since TPB got censored, there are now literally hundreds of reverse proxies available, and since the government pushed 'opt-out' censorship, there are now dozens of proxies explicitly marketed for defeating them, and more and more sites are switching to use TLS.
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Emotions are weird, if you're sitting around worrying about your child then you need a hobby. If it's really a problem that your child goes somewhere without texting you if you asked them to then don't let them go out next time. If they are in college and don't answer your calls, then leave them alone, find something else to do, send them an email if you need to inform them of something or have something you want to discuss.
Kids go through weird phases, they lash out at parents for different reasons such as being unhappy with themselves or struggling to find purpose. Talk to them in person, ask difficult questions, if they don't have an answer, ask again later or ask different questions.
Be a good roll-model by being calm, rational, humble, and honest. I can picture the mom who had the idea for this app, controlling, slightly crazy, comes off as bitchy.
What if your significant other installed a similar app on your phone? Would piss you off, right?
If you want to restrict the games kids play or the sites they visit on their phones, that's probably for the better, be sure to inform them of the logical reasons such as the fact that game companies exploit human psychology to create addiction and many apps upload private information that could harm them later in life. But locking their phones because they haven't called you back, I just can't see how that'll do anything but harm in the long-run.
"Because I said so.", "Do as I say, not as I do.", "Say it, say I love you."
If you kid doesn't answer their phone they are either in class, busy, have it on mute, in jail, dead, getting high, in a loud car, at a party with friends, having sex, eating somewhere, or they just don't want to talk to you at the moment. If they are in jail, they'll call you, if they're dead, then there is nothing you can do about it, you'll find out soon enough. In every other situation it's not that critical that you hear their voice, send them a text message and find something to do.
It might just boil down to positive verses negative reinforcement.
Just my 2 cents about actually using this product as a parent. Looking at it as an app idea, it's a good idea and looks well executed. I'm sure many parents will purchase it.