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I have heard a lot of people say that they do this, but I have never seen someone actually do it, nor have I heard a second-hand report of someone doing it.
I'm not saying that you're not telling the truth, but I am saying that most people who say that they give food actually give nothing (neither money nor food), but tell their friends and random message boards that they give food, because it avoids looking miserly (if you give nothing) or naive (if you give money).
I'm not saying that you're not telling the truth, but I am saying that most people who say that they give food actually give nothing (neither money nor food), but tell their friends and random message boards that they give food, because it avoids looking miserly (if you give nothing) or naive (if you give money).
I've done it a couple of times. One guy asked for deodorant and food, so I walked with him to 7-11 to get deodorant, then across the street to McDonalds. And like the GP, you can talk with them along the way. Sometimes they don't want food. One homeless lady in my neighborhood (who recently passed away) refused the coffee we bought for her one cold morning. My wife had a few conversations with her and discovered that she like writing in notebooks--she had lots of them. So we bought her a few new notebooks and pencils. She didn't want food or help from anyone.
I don't really care what you think. Also, like most of the people that help, I do that to help people, not to brag about helping.
Like I say, I'm not accusing you personally of anything!
And I agree with you completely - most people that help, do that because they think that helping people is the right thing to do.
I'm saying that there are a whole other (much larger) class of people who actually don't help at all, but say that they do (to their friends, on HN etc) because they don't want to be thought of as miserly.
Just look at the comments on this thread. At the moment, by far the largest number are saying that they don't give money, but that they buy food or other goods instead. If that were true, I would expect to have seen someone give a homeless person food at least once in my life, or offer to take them somewhere they could buy food, or just stop to talk to them. As it is, I've seen zero people give food, maybe a few hundred people give money, and hundreds of thousands do nothing.
And I agree with you completely - most people that help, do that because they think that helping people is the right thing to do.
I'm saying that there are a whole other (much larger) class of people who actually don't help at all, but say that they do (to their friends, on HN etc) because they don't want to be thought of as miserly.
Just look at the comments on this thread. At the moment, by far the largest number are saying that they don't give money, but that they buy food or other goods instead. If that were true, I would expect to have seen someone give a homeless person food at least once in my life, or offer to take them somewhere they could buy food, or just stop to talk to them. As it is, I've seen zero people give food, maybe a few hundred people give money, and hundreds of thousands do nothing.
Well, the problem here is that maybe you simply didn't notice. I have never noticed anyone buying goods for another people but I have seen a lot of people buying together, how can I be sure one of them were being helped by the other one?
When we are at a supermarket we don't usually notice anything beside our own grocery list...
When we are at a supermarket we don't usually notice anything beside our own grocery list...
There was one time, someone asked me for small change in order to buy water. I offered him to buy the water without giving him the money. He turned away and kept walking. This is why I tend not to give money (and feel really bad about it).
I've been asked at gas stations for a few bucks to buy gas. That one always seems to be a scam.
I tend to give money to older people and people who are offering a service. There was a guy who hung out at a grocery store with a bottle of window cleaner and rags, and he'd clean your car windows for whatever you gave him.
If they're young, look fairly healthy, or look like druggies, I don't give. If they demand a certain amount (I've had someone demand $20 from me!) I definitely don't give.
I don't see beggars close up all that often. Here they're usually standing at an intersection with a sign. If you're on foot in the City, there's a lot of panhandlers, and I think you'd be begging yourself pretty quickly if you gave everyone a few bucks.
I tend to give money to older people and people who are offering a service. There was a guy who hung out at a grocery store with a bottle of window cleaner and rags, and he'd clean your car windows for whatever you gave him.
If they're young, look fairly healthy, or look like druggies, I don't give. If they demand a certain amount (I've had someone demand $20 from me!) I definitely don't give.
I don't see beggars close up all that often. Here they're usually standing at an intersection with a sign. If you're on foot in the City, there's a lot of panhandlers, and I think you'd be begging yourself pretty quickly if you gave everyone a few bucks.
Better to help those who don't deserve it than to neglect those who do.
Yeps, the repetition over this is what led me not to give money but instead helping them in this other way.
Also, trust your instincts.
Also, trust your instincts.
The replies on this thread make me sad.
I've been homeless, sleeping rough under bushes and on building sites. I was homeless for over 2 years when I was much younger.
I begged on a few occasions, perhaps 3-4 days in total. The rest of the time I attempted to earn money however I could (minus the dodgy offers I received to give blow jobs for toast and butter and other sexual services).
When I begged I did it because I really needed to, I had nothing else.
I did it because I was that hungry that I could no longer offer to knock down walls for £5 if someone could just lend me a sledghammer. I was too weak, or I was ill and unable to.
When I begged, those very few times, those people who gave me money were my saviours. I sometimes reflect that I shouldn't have made it off the streets, the odds were against me. I should be dead, never known enough to be forgotten.
Can you tell a person in need from one on the take?
Do you think it's race, or gender that defines that?
Do you think it's age?
Do you think that a person who appears more run-down has a more urgent need than someone who washed recently?
Do you think the urgency of need can be told from how they smell?
I can guarantee that you'll get it wrong some of the time.
I give today, without question. I know some are on the take, that most are not in that level of need. But I'm not going to walk past the person that is in that level of need and I know I can't tell the difference either.
I'm also not going to dictate that I'll buy some shitty fast food meal. I was ill so much on the streets. It's hard to be healthy when you're cold, damp, and frankly eating food that makes it hard to stay healthy at all. And sometimes I would skip meals, I'd feel hungrier if I ate... it stretched the stomach, created a bigger emptiness inside. Sometimes when I had money I needed to ration it on food I could digest over a long period of time... buying me a sandwich wouldn't have helped me greatly, it satisfies your need not mine.
This may be different in San Francisco (I've seen that you have a hell of a problem there)... my experience is in the UK where you may only pass a person begging every few days at most.
But seriously... that few quid in your pocket, it's not going to make a difference to your life, you'll still be at whatever your wealth level tomorrow. But it could really make a difference to the person you give it to.
I've been homeless, sleeping rough under bushes and on building sites. I was homeless for over 2 years when I was much younger.
I begged on a few occasions, perhaps 3-4 days in total. The rest of the time I attempted to earn money however I could (minus the dodgy offers I received to give blow jobs for toast and butter and other sexual services).
When I begged I did it because I really needed to, I had nothing else.
I did it because I was that hungry that I could no longer offer to knock down walls for £5 if someone could just lend me a sledghammer. I was too weak, or I was ill and unable to.
When I begged, those very few times, those people who gave me money were my saviours. I sometimes reflect that I shouldn't have made it off the streets, the odds were against me. I should be dead, never known enough to be forgotten.
Can you tell a person in need from one on the take?
Do you think it's race, or gender that defines that?
Do you think it's age?
Do you think that a person who appears more run-down has a more urgent need than someone who washed recently?
Do you think the urgency of need can be told from how they smell?
I can guarantee that you'll get it wrong some of the time.
I give today, without question. I know some are on the take, that most are not in that level of need. But I'm not going to walk past the person that is in that level of need and I know I can't tell the difference either.
I'm also not going to dictate that I'll buy some shitty fast food meal. I was ill so much on the streets. It's hard to be healthy when you're cold, damp, and frankly eating food that makes it hard to stay healthy at all. And sometimes I would skip meals, I'd feel hungrier if I ate... it stretched the stomach, created a bigger emptiness inside. Sometimes when I had money I needed to ration it on food I could digest over a long period of time... buying me a sandwich wouldn't have helped me greatly, it satisfies your need not mine.
This may be different in San Francisco (I've seen that you have a hell of a problem there)... my experience is in the UK where you may only pass a person begging every few days at most.
But seriously... that few quid in your pocket, it's not going to make a difference to your life, you'll still be at whatever your wealth level tomorrow. But it could really make a difference to the person you give it to.
Thank you for sharing. I will probably use your advice. Sometimes. And other times, I think it's still better to offer food, blanket or a ticket instead of money, just as people expressed here. At least I won't wonder if I gave someone money for his next dose of drugs.
I suppose it depends on where you live. In my city (Cape Town) beggars can make up to $400 a week at certain high-traffic spots. People who give them money are enabling them. Also, in my city certain organisations exist to help the homeless and IMO it's better to donate to these groups instead.
In many places in South Africa you are encouraged NOT to give money to beggars.
http://giveresponsibly.co.za/
http://www.capetowncid.co.za/docs/6268/Image%20from%20Best%2...
In many places in South Africa you are encouraged NOT to give money to beggars.
http://giveresponsibly.co.za/
http://www.capetowncid.co.za/docs/6268/Image%20from%20Best%2...
Yes, I live in Paris and it said beggars can make up to 30€ a day on certain locations. Moreover they have access to bare necessities like food, clothes, free street clinics and sheltering during winter. Some beggars aren't homeless either.
Every cent given to street beggars goes for their comfort, not their survival. I'm not implying that is a bad thing, just don't think you've saved a person by giving them some quids.
Every cent given to street beggars goes for their comfort, not their survival. I'm not implying that is a bad thing, just don't think you've saved a person by giving them some quids.
There are charities in my country as well. But I suspect they are corrupted and I avoid giving them money. Regarding making good money while begging for it - I don't know how much do they make here.
That's quite a lot of money (assuming you mean USD and not ZAR). Do you have a source for that figure? Is that an average, or is it the largest amount that one person has ever made?
That's the largest amount that I've heard of. It was from someone who begged at the Goodwood intersection near Libertas a few years ago over the December period.
A survey was done last year and it found that on average white beggars earn about R172 a day. But it's not uncommon in busy areas to net over R1000 in spots especially if there are a lot of tourists.
http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/White-beggars-make-R1...
A survey was done last year and it found that on average white beggars earn about R172 a day. But it's not uncommon in busy areas to net over R1000 in spots especially if there are a lot of tourists.
http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/White-beggars-make-R1...
Have to agree here in south east Asia a lot of this is run by crime syndicates, only part of the money goes to people on the street.
i once saw a beggar lady with a child on her back at a kfc in johannesburg, she had roll of notes and so many coins they couldn't fit in both her hands.
I don't give to charities or homeless people. I live by the old saying, "Charity begins at home."
If I can afford to help strangers then I can afford to help my family and friends, who are more important to me.
If I can afford to help strangers then I can afford to help my family and friends, who are more important to me.
I don't really get your second paragraph. If you can afford to help strangers, then you can afford to help your friends. What point are you trying to make? I'm not sure.
And why do you help your family and friends? Why not focus on yourself only?
My point is, why did you draw the line exactly at friends and family? You don't owe anything to the rest of society, nor the rest of society owe anything to you? Why do you owe anything to your friends and family?
And why do you help your family and friends? Why not focus on yourself only?
My point is, why did you draw the line exactly at friends and family? You don't owe anything to the rest of society, nor the rest of society owe anything to you? Why do you owe anything to your friends and family?
Why draw the line at family and friends? It's a natural place to draw the line. I think if you study psychology and the evolution of the human mind that's pretty obvious.
Additionally if you want to reason in a framework of debts, then you probably owe the most to your friends and family. You owe your entire existence directly to your parents -- it's hard to top that! Might as well stop there and just accept you have some unquantifiable amount of direct debt to the family who raised and protected you and the friends who spent time with you freely as opposed to doing something else. You can try to talk of indirect debts owed to and by "society" etc. but those quickly become spaghetti and in my opinion nonsensical. They're diffused and for some groups entirely non-existent, their lifespan is indefinite (you owe a part of your existence to all the warriors on whatever side of the conflicts your victorious (where victory means they could reproduce or their existing children were spared) ancestors took part in!), it's usually very unclear just how much is owed to whom, if it's even quantifiable, and how or if one can repay, and if you allow counterfactuals (like indirectly owing part of your existence to anyone who has had ill-thoughts toward your mother while she was pregnant or you during your life, but who didn't act on them) it becomes ever more ridiculous. And this is just as a reasoning framework -- can such a ridiculous construct actually motivate people to donate to some charity feeding starving kids in Africa and generate warm-fuzzy feelings of similar magnitude to gifting and helping out friends and family?
Additionally if you want to reason in a framework of debts, then you probably owe the most to your friends and family. You owe your entire existence directly to your parents -- it's hard to top that! Might as well stop there and just accept you have some unquantifiable amount of direct debt to the family who raised and protected you and the friends who spent time with you freely as opposed to doing something else. You can try to talk of indirect debts owed to and by "society" etc. but those quickly become spaghetti and in my opinion nonsensical. They're diffused and for some groups entirely non-existent, their lifespan is indefinite (you owe a part of your existence to all the warriors on whatever side of the conflicts your victorious (where victory means they could reproduce or their existing children were spared) ancestors took part in!), it's usually very unclear just how much is owed to whom, if it's even quantifiable, and how or if one can repay, and if you allow counterfactuals (like indirectly owing part of your existence to anyone who has had ill-thoughts toward your mother while she was pregnant or you during your life, but who didn't act on them) it becomes ever more ridiculous. And this is just as a reasoning framework -- can such a ridiculous construct actually motivate people to donate to some charity feeding starving kids in Africa and generate warm-fuzzy feelings of similar magnitude to gifting and helping out friends and family?
"Why draw the line at family and friends? It's a natural place to draw the line. I think if you study psychology and the evolution of the human mind that's pretty obvious."
I think if you study those things, you'll realize that it's not at all obvious. Clearly there's a difference between your blood relatives and the rest of humanity, but we collaborate and dependent on non-related strangers far more than any other species, and we have morals that support that kind of behavior. Why, do you think, we accuse people of nepotism, when they favor family in some scenarios (particularly in business and politics)?
I think the slogan "charity begins at home" is not appropriate to excuse one's ignorance of others' plight, and the fact that we have this debate is a good proof that human ethics are, in fact, more sophisticated.
I think if you study those things, you'll realize that it's not at all obvious. Clearly there's a difference between your blood relatives and the rest of humanity, but we collaborate and dependent on non-related strangers far more than any other species, and we have morals that support that kind of behavior. Why, do you think, we accuse people of nepotism, when they favor family in some scenarios (particularly in business and politics)?
I think the slogan "charity begins at home" is not appropriate to excuse one's ignorance of others' plight, and the fact that we have this debate is a good proof that human ethics are, in fact, more sophisticated.
It's completely obvious to me. Because I have morals, I may feel sorry for homeless/sick/poor/other people/animals/countries, but it's illogical to me to give my money/care/efforts to any other than those that rely on me.
The second part means that if I have enough money that I could potentially give it to a charity, I won't. I will buy my children something, or I will help my friends in need.
> Why not focus on yourself only? Because I will help those important to me, that I care about, and/or are my responsibility.
Homeless people and charities for every animal, nationality, and disease in this world, can not ALL be my responsibility. Another point that I think about a lot, I can not justify giving to just one charity and not to all charities. So I give to none.
I realise that my opinions may be unpopular but I have no problem with that.
> Why not focus on yourself only? Because I will help those important to me, that I care about, and/or are my responsibility.
Homeless people and charities for every animal, nationality, and disease in this world, can not ALL be my responsibility. Another point that I think about a lot, I can not justify giving to just one charity and not to all charities. So I give to none.
I realise that my opinions may be unpopular but I have no problem with that.
Your home isn't the streets where you live and work?
I don't know about the person you're responding to but I don't take myself to live in the streets. I don't even go into my town most months and when I do it's to go to a shop and then go straight home. Pretty much everything I want I order off the net, or drive to a supermarket which is massively outside of town.
I don't work on the streets either, I work in an office or at home.
The streets are just the transport to and from places I actually work and live. They're not somewhere I do anything other than pass through.
I don't work on the streets either, I work in an office or at home.
The streets are just the transport to and from places I actually work and live. They're not somewhere I do anything other than pass through.
Most homelessness charities in the UK subscribe to the view that you are not helping by giving money to beggars. There's even an extensive campaign called Killing with Kindness
http://www.thamesreach.org.uk/news-and-views/campaigns/givin...
As someone who used to work in this sector, I no longer give money to beggars. Support the charities instead.
http://www.thamesreach.org.uk/news-and-views/campaigns/givin...
As someone who used to work in this sector, I no longer give money to beggars. Support the charities instead.
Thanks for that link - I was looking for it to reply to this trail.
I completely agree with others' points about being non-judgmental. However, the point I see is to _help_, and (statistically) that doesn't mean giving money directly.
(Over the autumn/winter, I volunteer with Hackney Winter Night Shelter (http://www.hwns.org.uk/) and chat to workers from Thames Reach quite often.)
I completely agree with others' points about being non-judgmental. However, the point I see is to _help_, and (statistically) that doesn't mean giving money directly.
(Over the autumn/winter, I volunteer with Hackney Winter Night Shelter (http://www.hwns.org.uk/) and chat to workers from Thames Reach quite often.)
I established a formal policy of not doing business with strangers in public areas - and panhandling is definitely a business. It just happens to be one that works by creating and subsequently monetizing guilt. An adept panhandler will combine the skills of a con artist, a mugger and a thief, so that you are first frightened and thrown off balance by their aggression, then guilted by their pitch, and finally robbed by their sleight of hand.
When panhandlers or other street people behave more aggressively I simply run away like a scared animal. They do not have a moral right to touch or yell at me, but neither do I have the right to use violence against them for that.
The good you need to do to solve "the problem" of homelessness and poverty involves gradual systemic change - handing out cash to one person at one time is going to maintain the status quo. You have no way to know whose story is a truthful one when you are so suddenly confronted by it - it is like making a blind investment. Only invest if you force them to commit time to you. If they refuse they are up to no good and you should run away.
When panhandlers or other street people behave more aggressively I simply run away like a scared animal. They do not have a moral right to touch or yell at me, but neither do I have the right to use violence against them for that.
The good you need to do to solve "the problem" of homelessness and poverty involves gradual systemic change - handing out cash to one person at one time is going to maintain the status quo. You have no way to know whose story is a truthful one when you are so suddenly confronted by it - it is like making a blind investment. Only invest if you force them to commit time to you. If they refuse they are up to no good and you should run away.
Personally, it's my policy to give money to anyone who asks unless they are drunk. I know that a lot of beggars are simply trying to take advantage of people like me, but on the other hand there is a lot of people who really need help. I'm not in a position to sort them out, and I'm most certainly not going to judge them. If I'm better off then they are, why not give a few $?
One more thing. Sometimes I see a lot of people asking for money for a "bus ticket" or "gas" because "their car broke down" I always tell them that I know they are full of shit, and that they should change their line. they will still get few $, as I prefer that they ask for money instead of robbing someone else.
And in all honesty, do beggars do anything different than your average sales person? Instead of a product they are selling their poverty. If they good at doing that why not reward them :)
One more thing. Sometimes I see a lot of people asking for money for a "bus ticket" or "gas" because "their car broke down" I always tell them that I know they are full of shit, and that they should change their line. they will still get few $, as I prefer that they ask for money instead of robbing someone else.
And in all honesty, do beggars do anything different than your average sales person? Instead of a product they are selling their poverty. If they good at doing that why not reward them :)
You should only give them money if they are in front of YOUR home, so they are more likely to become a permanent fixture in YOUR life. I live in a tourist area which also has several well-run shelters, which are not a problem. The problems are the vagrants who will not accept rules and organized help (for whatever reason--I'm not addressing that). If YOU pay them to beg in MY neighborhood then you are paying them to stay right there and wait for more handouts, and they are a constant burden on the health, police, and social services system, to no avail. If you can't imagine encouraging them out in front of YOUR house, then don't do it in front of MY house. Volunteer for or donate to a relief organization, or take an individual into your home, if you really want to help.
You do not have a moral or legal right to not be around poor people. The public areas near your home are not yours, and it's not reasonable for you to expect control over who is and is not welcome there. Particularly if, as you say, you choose to live in a tourist area where there are constantly many strangers around.
If you're concerned about the burden on social services, you should demand that your local government provide no-questions-asked, no-strings-attached SRO apartments for anyone on the street. It is far more cost effective than constant EMS and police attention. And despite your claim that "vagrants" will not accept organized help, I guarantee that almost all of them will if you remove the arbitrary and unnecessary rules and restrictions. There's a reason that many european nations have effectively no homelessness, and it's precisely because free housing is a given.
If our society treats getting someone into an apartment as a <i>goal</i> that we need to work for rather than a <i>favor</i> they need to work for, it becomes much easier.
If you're concerned about the burden on social services, you should demand that your local government provide no-questions-asked, no-strings-attached SRO apartments for anyone on the street. It is far more cost effective than constant EMS and police attention. And despite your claim that "vagrants" will not accept organized help, I guarantee that almost all of them will if you remove the arbitrary and unnecessary rules and restrictions. There's a reason that many european nations have effectively no homelessness, and it's precisely because free housing is a given.
If our society treats getting someone into an apartment as a <i>goal</i> that we need to work for rather than a <i>favor</i> they need to work for, it becomes much easier.
Impressive.
I give to the top charities on GiveWell [1] instead. As an individual you can't help everyone, at least with GiveWell you can be fairly sure your money is making someone's life better.
[1] http://www.givewell.org/
[1] http://www.givewell.org/
How do you know you can trust them?
If you mean "how can you know you can trust the charities on GiveWell", the whole point of GiveWell is to rank charities by how effectively they use their donations to help people.
If you mean "how do you know you can trust GiveWell", I guess you don't.
If you mean "how do you know you can trust GiveWell", I guess you don't.
The point of GiveWell is that they thoroughly investigate the results of the charity, and recommend places that are highly effective for your marginal dollar.
Maybe they don't succeed in their mission, and they are the first to point out their limitations.
Maybe they don't succeed in their mission, and they are the first to point out their limitations.
I think buying food in lieu of giving money ignores the fact that money is fairly fungible. A dollar saved on food expenses is a dollar that can be spent on the vices that the donor is trying to prevent.
As for my answer to the question, I try to limit my charitable contributions to charities praised for efficiency and effectiveness on the various watchdog sites, but I usually end up cracking and giving in person as well.
On a related note, writing my post reminded me of an old LessWrong post [1] I saw.
[1] http://lesswrong.com/lw/6z/purchase_fuzzies_and_utilons_sepa...
As for my answer to the question, I try to limit my charitable contributions to charities praised for efficiency and effectiveness on the various watchdog sites, but I usually end up cracking and giving in person as well.
On a related note, writing my post reminded me of an old LessWrong post [1] I saw.
[1] http://lesswrong.com/lw/6z/purchase_fuzzies_and_utilons_sepa...
An alternative is to contribute time, money or other items to an organization which helps the homeless or those with financial challenges. A local shelter, food bank, Habitat for Humanity, etc.
Well you can sidestep the issue slightly. Ask what do they need the money for? If they are hungry buy them a meal at a local cafe then buy some dry food (like crackers), canned meat such as spam that can be kept in a tin till needed and UHT Milk (milk in a cartoon that doesn't need to be refrigerated till opened. Don't forget some bottle water, also low alcoholic beer may be a subtle alternative if they don't have access to a clean drinking water supply within reason (In ye olde days, drinking beer was common during the day as drinking water was often polluted) [1]. Also vitamins and supplements too.
If they need money for the Bus or Train to get home, then buy it for them. Get a taxi (you hail/pick it not them) to the train or bus station (don't walk there in case its a setup and you get robbed on the way and don't use your own car)
However, everyone has a story. For every person who is desperate and needs money, they are others who abuse peoples kind genorisity. They may use the money to buy Crack or Heroin or they made need it to buy their baby some food. You simply don't know.
[1] http://www.healthguidance.org/entry/14208/1/The-History-of-B...
If they need money for the Bus or Train to get home, then buy it for them. Get a taxi (you hail/pick it not them) to the train or bus station (don't walk there in case its a setup and you get robbed on the way and don't use your own car)
However, everyone has a story. For every person who is desperate and needs money, they are others who abuse peoples kind genorisity. They may use the money to buy Crack or Heroin or they made need it to buy their baby some food. You simply don't know.
[1] http://www.healthguidance.org/entry/14208/1/The-History-of-B...
Good idea. What do you think I can do when I'm on a train and there is nothing I can do but to give money? That where I get to hear most of the touchy stories.
Everyone has a story. It might be you another time so be respectful but if required be polite but firm and refuse. If its a train they will move on to the next person/carriage. If they are telling you a story, then take the lead and ask them questions. Such as they want to go home, well tell me about home. Your parents, your brothers or sisters. The cute girl in the coffee shop who you went to school with. Tell me about them. Look for consistency in the story but you have to use your gut.
In my opinion, you are better off buying them the meal and food or the ticket yourself at the next stop. Never give cash.
In my opinion, you are better off buying them the meal and food or the ticket yourself at the next stop. Never give cash.
I'm not sure I'll have the courage to speak. For example, one lady claims that her daughter got injured in a terrorist attack and for years now she is undergoing expensive medical treatments. I see this lady pretty often on the train. No way I'm going to ask her about her life.
I think this is best handled by local government. They can organize this better than individuals. They can provide the professional support and care that is necessary. The city I live in provides homeless people with a place to sleep, they provide them with warm meals, a place to shower and wash clothes. They also provide clean syringes and anti-conception, they provide books and newspapers to read, facilities to exercise. Maybe most important, they provide advice and counselling and give people a way to get things back on track, if they want to take it.
The national government provides them with monthly income (welfare). Which I will agree isn't much, but should cover the absolute basic necessities, especially combined with all the other help available. The local government also helps people to actually receive this money, to prevent the bureaucratic nonsense of homeless people needing to supply an address to apply for welfare.
To accomplish all of this, we pay a relatively high tax. But many people still give quite a bit of money to their favorite charities.
Of course, all of this requires the homeless person to cooperate. The system handles most of cases quite well, there aren't many beggars around, despite being a popular tourist destination. The groups who are not covered fall mainly in the categories: criminals, drug addicts, people with psychological problems, homeless by choice or lifestyle. For each of these groups I feel giving them money is a bad idea, but I hope they all find the help they need.
So no, I don't give money personally to beggars on the street. Yes, I happily pay tax and support charitable organisations.
The national government provides them with monthly income (welfare). Which I will agree isn't much, but should cover the absolute basic necessities, especially combined with all the other help available. The local government also helps people to actually receive this money, to prevent the bureaucratic nonsense of homeless people needing to supply an address to apply for welfare.
To accomplish all of this, we pay a relatively high tax. But many people still give quite a bit of money to their favorite charities.
Of course, all of this requires the homeless person to cooperate. The system handles most of cases quite well, there aren't many beggars around, despite being a popular tourist destination. The groups who are not covered fall mainly in the categories: criminals, drug addicts, people with psychological problems, homeless by choice or lifestyle. For each of these groups I feel giving them money is a bad idea, but I hope they all find the help they need.
So no, I don't give money personally to beggars on the street. Yes, I happily pay tax and support charitable organisations.
You'll have to decide what you should do for yourself. If you are philosophically inclined I recommend looking at Famine, Affluence, and Morality by Peter Singer not because it is right or wrong but because it may help clarify your own thoughts by laying out a systematic approach to reasoning about the issue.
http://www.utilitarianism.net/singer/by/1972----.htm
Singer is arguably the 'greatest' philosopher of the last fifty years [1]. Agree with him or not, he has thought deeply about the issue and his reasoning around it and expressed these thoughts within a framework of rule based utilitarian philosophy.
Singer's Ted talk on the subject:
http://www.ted.com/talks/peter_singer_the_why_and_how_of_eff...
Singer's homepage at Princeton, the link page includes links to most of his papers:
http://www.princeton.edu/~psinger/
[1] Not that I am interested in arguing. I only use the term to suggest that the list of candidates is not very long, at the moment. In fifty years who knows?
http://www.utilitarianism.net/singer/by/1972----.htm
Singer is arguably the 'greatest' philosopher of the last fifty years [1]. Agree with him or not, he has thought deeply about the issue and his reasoning around it and expressed these thoughts within a framework of rule based utilitarian philosophy.
Singer's Ted talk on the subject:
http://www.ted.com/talks/peter_singer_the_why_and_how_of_eff...
Singer's homepage at Princeton, the link page includes links to most of his papers:
http://www.princeton.edu/~psinger/
[1] Not that I am interested in arguing. I only use the term to suggest that the list of candidates is not very long, at the moment. In fifty years who knows?
I always try to put my personal assumptions aside and buy the person a meal - in the UK a lot of convenience stores have "meal deals" on that cost around £3 for sandwiches, a side and a drink. I usually go with that without asking them first, and then listen if they want to talk.
I think the worst thing about being in their situation would be that most people wouldn't listen, and sometimes that can be just enough to get you through the day.
I think the worst thing about being in their situation would be that most people wouldn't listen, and sometimes that can be just enough to get you through the day.
I see active beggars everyday on my way to lunch, but the word on the street is to leave me alone and not bother me.
About 5 years ago, I gave one beggar some money. This was not the first time I'd noticed him, that had been when I walked by with some shirts and he said to his buddies, "See that guy? He's in the Klan!" ('Ku Klux Klan' for non-Americans.) He's an old black guy, in his 60s, with a sense of humor. He doesn't always ask for money. He always says "hi," even shouting it from across the street. We talk about happenings in the neighborhood, sports, etc. It's just a few minutes, once or twice a week; but it's more interaction than I have with some co-workers.
About a year ago, I found out that he had put the word out for no one to bother me. He figured out I can't help everyone, so he doesn't want someone ruining it for him. (I've only been asked by someone else once in the past year or so and I did help her.)
About 5 years ago, I gave one beggar some money. This was not the first time I'd noticed him, that had been when I walked by with some shirts and he said to his buddies, "See that guy? He's in the Klan!" ('Ku Klux Klan' for non-Americans.) He's an old black guy, in his 60s, with a sense of humor. He doesn't always ask for money. He always says "hi," even shouting it from across the street. We talk about happenings in the neighborhood, sports, etc. It's just a few minutes, once or twice a week; but it's more interaction than I have with some co-workers.
About a year ago, I found out that he had put the word out for no one to bother me. He figured out I can't help everyone, so he doesn't want someone ruining it for him. (I've only been asked by someone else once in the past year or so and I did help her.)
I give to street performers. I don't give to random people sitting on the sidewalk asking for money.
There is a courtyard right out front of my office building. It attracts all sorts of people, probably because it is "downtown" and right by a main exit from the underground train. Most of them just sit around smoking pot, being loud & making a mess. There are at least 5 trash cans positioned around this courtyard... yet these vagabonds just throw their crap on the ground. Not having a home is no excuse for not being a decent human being. I don't give money to them.
On some days people come to perform. Sometimes it is a band that is trying to sell their home made CDs. Sometimes it is just a guy playing bucket drums. I give to them on occasion. I'll give money to a guy playing bucket drums before I give to a guy sitting with an overturned hat and a sign.
There is a courtyard right out front of my office building. It attracts all sorts of people, probably because it is "downtown" and right by a main exit from the underground train. Most of them just sit around smoking pot, being loud & making a mess. There are at least 5 trash cans positioned around this courtyard... yet these vagabonds just throw their crap on the ground. Not having a home is no excuse for not being a decent human being. I don't give money to them.
On some days people come to perform. Sometimes it is a band that is trying to sell their home made CDs. Sometimes it is just a guy playing bucket drums. I give to them on occasion. I'll give money to a guy playing bucket drums before I give to a guy sitting with an overturned hat and a sign.
I do that too. I like street performers and sometimes even wish there would be more (not poor, of course). They make the place much nicer. Sometimes the music is even great. I don't have problems with those, they earn their money.
In my case I was devastated by natural disaster, leaving me with challenging anti-social obligations.
When I am not worse off than the homeless or domestically compromised, I still help the ones whom I am personally acquainted with, providing cash sometimes or rides in my vehicle.
There are numerous needy individuals I encounter regularly and they are not always worse off than me.
With needy strangers, until I am out of debt or at least have positive cash flow, I can usually be honest, and get an honest reaction when I ask if they have lost everything. If so, it's easy to relate how I'm looking forward to working 12hours a day, 7days a week for a couple years so that I will recover well enough to then have nothing myself.
For someone who is truly homeless, it's usually easy for them to understand that I am non-domestic myself, plus it takes a lot to keep a vehicle on the road so I really don't have anything to spare sensibly.
Since I'm older than most, the sensible beggar recognizes he may be worse off in my position.
This year I often have food with me when I am driving, so I sometimes can share some of my rations or occasionally even have surplus to give.
I am a surplus-seeking individual. My entire (ruined) operation was built with recycled or surplus materials.
One man gathers what another man spills.
I don't plan to beg on the street, I'll learn how to accept financial help from a capitalist instead, and I'm not looking for a donation unless a venture turns out to be a non-profit org. Otherwise I'll make them as much return as they prefer.
But it has to be a generous capitalist with surplus funds to combine with my surplus technology, then we fly. The same backing from a greedy partner could only offer further deficit for me, may still get off the ground but not true flight with that baggage.
I look forward to the time when I can once again exersize my generosity to a greater degree. __________
- now you're considering street performers while I was typing, so I'll post this here. Don't think I'll do that either unless I finally lose critical mass of industrial surplus which could happen any time, but looks like I've got a better chance singing for my supper at my favorite restaurant than I would in the street, which is illegal here except in the (uncrowded) museum district with a very restrictive permit.
sorry this message turned out to be so personal, hope it helps anyway, this one hit "home"
When I am not worse off than the homeless or domestically compromised, I still help the ones whom I am personally acquainted with, providing cash sometimes or rides in my vehicle.
There are numerous needy individuals I encounter regularly and they are not always worse off than me.
With needy strangers, until I am out of debt or at least have positive cash flow, I can usually be honest, and get an honest reaction when I ask if they have lost everything. If so, it's easy to relate how I'm looking forward to working 12hours a day, 7days a week for a couple years so that I will recover well enough to then have nothing myself.
For someone who is truly homeless, it's usually easy for them to understand that I am non-domestic myself, plus it takes a lot to keep a vehicle on the road so I really don't have anything to spare sensibly.
Since I'm older than most, the sensible beggar recognizes he may be worse off in my position.
This year I often have food with me when I am driving, so I sometimes can share some of my rations or occasionally even have surplus to give.
I am a surplus-seeking individual. My entire (ruined) operation was built with recycled or surplus materials.
One man gathers what another man spills.
I don't plan to beg on the street, I'll learn how to accept financial help from a capitalist instead, and I'm not looking for a donation unless a venture turns out to be a non-profit org. Otherwise I'll make them as much return as they prefer.
But it has to be a generous capitalist with surplus funds to combine with my surplus technology, then we fly. The same backing from a greedy partner could only offer further deficit for me, may still get off the ground but not true flight with that baggage.
I look forward to the time when I can once again exersize my generosity to a greater degree. __________
- now you're considering street performers while I was typing, so I'll post this here. Don't think I'll do that either unless I finally lose critical mass of industrial surplus which could happen any time, but looks like I've got a better chance singing for my supper at my favorite restaurant than I would in the street, which is illegal here except in the (uncrowded) museum district with a very restrictive permit.
sorry this message turned out to be so personal, hope it helps anyway, this one hit "home"
I live in Boston (and occasionally NYC) and I rarely give money. My grandfather taught me to rarely/never give money, but always buy any person a meal that asks for it. And I've done so on several occasions; taken someone to a Subway or whatever is nearby and bought them food; or to a 7/11 where they could purchase whatever food/toiletries they needed. Especially in the winter around here, being outside like that all day is brutal.
I have had a few occasions where people ask for money for food, and I tell them I'll just buy them food and they refuse. But I've had many more times where they are excited about it. Generally they ask for very little, sometimes just a cup of coffee and a bagel.
I have had a few occasions where people ask for money for food, and I tell them I'll just buy them food and they refuse. But I've had many more times where they are excited about it. Generally they ask for very little, sometimes just a cup of coffee and a bagel.
That's a good tip. Thanks!
Most of them have some "boss" who is collecting all the money, and giving them just a bit of it.
So instead of giving them money, it's much better to buy them food or something else what they really need.
So instead of giving them money, it's much better to buy them food or something else what they really need.
That's interesting, if it's true. Do you have a source?
Not the author of the parent comment but it's quite common here in Austria for beggars to arrive in busses, sprawl out in the morning, hit the "begging" hotspots / touristy areas and then drive back in the evening while giving a chunk of their earnings to their "boss".
Couldn't really find great english articles about this phenomenon so I don't know how reliable these sources are, the local media usually calls it "begging mafia" or "organised begging":
- A paper dealing with this topic: http://webs.schule.at/website/Texte_online/Organized_Begging...
- http://www.neurope.eu/article/slovak-clans-control-organised...
- http://www.viennareview.net/news/austria/end-station-for-u-b...
- http://viennatimes.at/news/General_News/2010-09-06/25437/Beg...
Couldn't really find great english articles about this phenomenon so I don't know how reliable these sources are, the local media usually calls it "begging mafia" or "organised begging":
- A paper dealing with this topic: http://webs.schule.at/website/Texte_online/Organized_Begging...
- http://www.neurope.eu/article/slovak-clans-control-organised...
- http://www.viennareview.net/news/austria/end-station-for-u-b...
- http://viennatimes.at/news/General_News/2010-09-06/25437/Beg...
[deleted]
If You live in Indonesia, especially in Jakarta or any big city, there is a law not to give beggars money. Why? because they are lie to you. They can earn salary more than a bank branch manager[1]. And so many people like them and organized very well.
If I'm in your position, I think I will give them snack or meal.
[1] http://www.bubblews.com/news/727796-woo-the-income-of-the-be...
If I'm in your position, I think I will give them snack or meal.
[1] http://www.bubblews.com/news/727796-woo-the-income-of-the-be...
I stopped giving money to these people, instead offering to buy them food.
I prefer to know exactly what the money is being spent on. I'm happy to help them, but I don't want to fund an addiction.
I prefer to know exactly what the money is being spent on. I'm happy to help them, but I don't want to fund an addiction.
I have three verses for you.
He that hath pity upon the poor lendeth unto the Lord; and that which he hath given will He pay him again. Pro 19:17
The generous will themselves be blessed, for they share their food with the poor. Pro 22:9
"Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." Luke 6:38
He that hath pity upon the poor lendeth unto the Lord; and that which he hath given will He pay him again. Pro 19:17
The generous will themselves be blessed, for they share their food with the poor. Pro 22:9
"Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." Luke 6:38
I have a verse for you.
"But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel." - 1 Timothy 5:8
"But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel." - 1 Timothy 5:8
This is exactly right, never ever forget your family.
what you should do is figure out why someone you don't know, to whom you own nothing, is able to make you feel so bad about not giving them anything.
Give money to beggars or don't, give money to charity or don't, give money to random people or don't.
Just figure out why you feel the way you do, I don't think anyone can do that for you.
Give money to beggars or don't, give money to charity or don't, give money to random people or don't.
Just figure out why you feel the way you do, I don't think anyone can do that for you.
Good point. Why? Because I was poor too a long time ago. Neither I or my family begged for money, but worked really hard to get it. I sympathize, I guess. No one knows how it feels to grow in a family with low resources. It goes unnoticed.
Try spending a little time with them, chat about their life, their problems. Try to find a solution to get them out of beggary. Then if you want either buy them something useful or give them money or do neither ! Whatever you do just don't forget to give them a hug ! It will make both of you amazingly happy :D
I do. In all honesty, I just go ahead and assume they will spend it on drugs/alcohol if they don't absolutely have to eat right away. I know that the joy and relief a $20 bill could provide them vs. me is much greater, and I in turn take pleasure in that.
There are probably charities that provide services like employment advice/assistant in your area, or food parcels or the like. They might accept donations - it's worth checking and harder for the individuals to abuse if they are lying.
Giving money enforces and condones the behaviour of begging. I'm sure people's intentions are good, but by giving money directly you're keeping them on the streets.
The long term solution (getting someone off the streets) is irrelevant for most homeless people. They're homeless now. What might be done to fix their situation in the future isn't something they spend much time thinking about. Unless you have a way to get someone of the streets right there and then, giving them money is by far the best thing you can do.
Is getting people off the street and helping them lead productive lives not the aim of many charities? I prefer to give to them (and for them to use their judgement) than whoever I randomly find on the street.
How will not giving money encourage them to get off the streets? It's not like the proportion of beggars who are in it for the money is particularly high...
Give the money to a charity that will be able to aggregate it, and use it better - as they understand the problem more fully.
Single datapoint: there is a beggar near my house who people give money to. He's been there for /years/. Is his problem being solved? I presume not.
Single datapoint: there is a beggar near my house who people give money to. He's been there for /years/. Is his problem being solved? I presume not.
You are leaving implicit a very important question: What are your goals?
Otherwise, give them money if you want to. Don't give them money if you don't want to.
Otherwise, give them money if you want to. Don't give them money if you don't want to.
If you a rich, then yes. What's a dollar to you? Have a chat with them too.
Maybe share your lunch if you've got some to spare.
Maybe share your lunch if you've got some to spare.
Here is what I do: I ALWAYS give, and I NEVER judge.
I was really ashamed after I read your answer. I'm still not 100% sure that's the spirit I'm willing to adopt, but there is something to it that feels right. I will think about it.
It's not my duty but helping someone in need, someone who asks you for help, is our duty. Just like you help a tourist. You help because you can.
What! It isn't your civic duty t give random strangers money.
What about after you give them money and they look down at their hand like "WTF? That's it?" and walk away disgusted (or just stare at you)? Do you judge then?
I'm not making this up to be combative. I use to carry a bunch of coins in a quickly accessible pocket just to give to anyone who asks because I hate having to internally debate it every time. The passive beggars are always fine, but I've had frustrating experiences with the active ones (especially the drunk and mentally disturbed).
I'm not making this up to be combative. I use to carry a bunch of coins in a quickly accessible pocket just to give to anyone who asks because I hate having to internally debate it every time. The passive beggars are always fine, but I've had frustrating experiences with the active ones (especially the drunk and mentally disturbed).
As I commented earlier, I ALWAYS give and I NEVER judge. I do this because I'm a Latter-Day Saint[1] and God explicitly spells out in the Book of Mormon[2] how we should respond in such a situation:
Succor those that stand in need of your succor; ye will administer of your substance unto him that standeth in need; and ye will not suffer that the beggar putteth up his petition to you in vain, and turn him out to perish.
Perhaps thou shalt say: The man has brought upon himself his misery; therefore I will stay my hand, and will not give unto him of my food, nor impart unto him of my substance that he may not suffer, for his punishments are just—
But I say unto you, O man, whosoever doeth this the same hath great cause to repent; and except he repenteth of that which he hath done he perisheth forever, and hath no interest in the kingdom of God.
For behold, are we not all beggars? Do we not all depend upon the same Being, even God, for all the substance which we have, for both food and raiment, and for gold, and for silver, and for all the riches which we have of every kind?
Book of Mormon, Mosiah 4: 16-19
[1] http://www.mormon.org.uk/
[2] https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm?lang=eng
Succor those that stand in need of your succor; ye will administer of your substance unto him that standeth in need; and ye will not suffer that the beggar putteth up his petition to you in vain, and turn him out to perish.
Perhaps thou shalt say: The man has brought upon himself his misery; therefore I will stay my hand, and will not give unto him of my food, nor impart unto him of my substance that he may not suffer, for his punishments are just—
But I say unto you, O man, whosoever doeth this the same hath great cause to repent; and except he repenteth of that which he hath done he perisheth forever, and hath no interest in the kingdom of God.
For behold, are we not all beggars? Do we not all depend upon the same Being, even God, for all the substance which we have, for both food and raiment, and for gold, and for silver, and for all the riches which we have of every kind?
Book of Mormon, Mosiah 4: 16-19
[1] http://www.mormon.org.uk/
[2] https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm?lang=eng
I wonder if Elohim would accept increasing one's tithe a bit as sufficient repentance. While I dropped Mormonism after I left childhood, I still find little thought patterns in myself like wanting to give by default that I think are most simply explained by my upbringing in a smallish (~13,000 to ~26,000 over my first 10 years) city in Utah and around a close-by and religiously-involved extended family, plus cub/boy scouts.
When I see bums nowadays I think I should always give to them, but two beliefs have saved me from letting guilt get to me since about 99% or more of the time I don't give. (Especially if I'm in a bum-heavy area like Vancouver or Seattle or if I can quickly rationalize it away by the fact I don't usually carry cash or finding a place to buy a banana or whatever would be out of my planned way.) First is my relative lack of spare money since I've only recently finished college and don't have a nest egg (I do believe in paying myself first), second is my belief in optimizing charity (see the GiveWell comment). Every time I see a bum and don't give, I try to make a small mental note to donate an additional $5-$10 to my chosen non-profit at some point in the future. I've got a few hundred dollar backlog right now due to financial constraints (fortunately I don't see too many bums in my area), but this has worked out in the past. Sometimes I do give anyway, and I do feel good, and it's not just the feeling of guilt relief. Though I feel a lot better helping people who are trying to help themselves, I do judge, and I feel best helping friends and some family especially when they don't ask. In the end I'm glad when I can live with my decisions and am able to "repent" mistakes not for fear of perishing forever but because they were mistakes that I eventually recognized as such.
When I see bums nowadays I think I should always give to them, but two beliefs have saved me from letting guilt get to me since about 99% or more of the time I don't give. (Especially if I'm in a bum-heavy area like Vancouver or Seattle or if I can quickly rationalize it away by the fact I don't usually carry cash or finding a place to buy a banana or whatever would be out of my planned way.) First is my relative lack of spare money since I've only recently finished college and don't have a nest egg (I do believe in paying myself first), second is my belief in optimizing charity (see the GiveWell comment). Every time I see a bum and don't give, I try to make a small mental note to donate an additional $5-$10 to my chosen non-profit at some point in the future. I've got a few hundred dollar backlog right now due to financial constraints (fortunately I don't see too many bums in my area), but this has worked out in the past. Sometimes I do give anyway, and I do feel good, and it's not just the feeling of guilt relief. Though I feel a lot better helping people who are trying to help themselves, I do judge, and I feel best helping friends and some family especially when they don't ask. In the end I'm glad when I can live with my decisions and am able to "repent" mistakes not for fear of perishing forever but because they were mistakes that I eventually recognized as such.
I'm sorry for your loss (your freewill & freedom I mean)
So taking the advice or instruction from someone smarter than you is a loss of personal freedom? Can you explain?
I go with them to whichever close market or restaurant and buy them what they really need, I don't usually put a money limit but rarely goes over 20 bucks with a nice food basket.
Part of these process is also listening to their stories, sometimes you can even hire them for some tasks and I usually tell them to help others in the same way if they have the oportunity (or to teach their children this lesson).
Of course they could sell these items later but I really feel good about this and I don't think they do that.