Show HN: Ladder, find a new startup job anonymously(tryladder.com)
tryladder.com
Show HN: Ladder, find a new startup job anonymously
http://tryladder.com
12 comments
Unlike hired.com, this guy tells me two questions in that since I'm not in SF, NY, or LA I should move on.
Which I actually appreciate. Other places waste my time. I don't know how my appreciation translates into revenue for him, so we're missing any decent feedback loop besides nice HN comments.
Which I actually appreciate. Other places waste my time. I don't know how my appreciation translates into revenue for him, so we're missing any decent feedback loop besides nice HN comments.
The "passive seekers" you refer to are what I like to call window shoppers.
Recruiting platforms like this one almost always appeal to window shoppers. Many window shoppers are folks who simply want find out if the grass is greener on the other side. In most cases they're window shopping because they don't really know what they want and they're not motivated enough to figure it out. For example, many of these folks are not looking to work in a particular vertical, or to solve a particular type of technical challenge. Instead, they're looking to see if they can earn $xx,xxx more per year or get into a hotter startup.
I wouldn't say that there are no good window shoppers, but they're rarely as attractive as the folks who are happily employed but open-minded enough to explore a great opportunity if they encounter one. Non-window shoppers are more likely to be people you meet in person. You pique their interest by telling a compelling story about your business or the technical challenges you're trying to solve, not by leading with compensation and your fridge's awesome collection of imported beers.
It's amusing that so many companies don't see these networks of window shoppers for what they are.
Recruiting platforms like this one almost always appeal to window shoppers. Many window shoppers are folks who simply want find out if the grass is greener on the other side. In most cases they're window shopping because they don't really know what they want and they're not motivated enough to figure it out. For example, many of these folks are not looking to work in a particular vertical, or to solve a particular type of technical challenge. Instead, they're looking to see if they can earn $xx,xxx more per year or get into a hotter startup.
I wouldn't say that there are no good window shoppers, but they're rarely as attractive as the folks who are happily employed but open-minded enough to explore a great opportunity if they encounter one. Non-window shoppers are more likely to be people you meet in person. You pique their interest by telling a compelling story about your business or the technical challenges you're trying to solve, not by leading with compensation and your fridge's awesome collection of imported beers.
It's amusing that so many companies don't see these networks of window shoppers for what they are.
Absolutely. Honestly, I was really surprised at the number of people that signed up that aren't on the market, still work at their job & couldn't use one of our competitors. Including founders and PM's.
The V1 is definitely not the end implementation, there are a lot of challenges ahead. It's just a great way to connect people at a relatively small scale. With curation and reaching out for more information from talent.
The V1 is definitely not the end implementation, there are a lot of challenges ahead. It's just a great way to connect people at a relatively small scale. With curation and reaching out for more information from talent.
What do these calls-to-action mean?
[hiring] [tech talent]
I have no idea what either are going to do.
Also, when I click on "tech talent", this is confusing:
"What role are you looking for? We only accept high quality companies that are actively hiring."
It sounds like you're trying to qualify me applying...but you're actually talking about which companies you may or may not refer to me. I understand you're trying to make your value prop clear, but it's just confusing at this point.
[hiring] [tech talent]
I have no idea what either are going to do.
Also, when I click on "tech talent", this is confusing:
"What role are you looking for? We only accept high quality companies that are actively hiring."
It sounds like you're trying to qualify me applying...but you're actually talking about which companies you may or may not refer to me. I understand you're trying to make your value prop clear, but it's just confusing at this point.
I really dislike the use of "Full Stack Developer" and especially when I'm pushed into that box by the only other choices being FE and iOS dev.
yes I take full stack to mean that they can work at all 7 layers of the OSI stack - i.e. they could design and build/supervise the installation of a network that the code they write can run on.
Whereas some take it to mean they can do basic server coding and html/JavaScript
Whereas some take it to mean they can do basic server coding and html/JavaScript
"Full Stack Developer" is the equivalent of "5 years of experience" in whatever new language or tech was announced last week. When I see companies advertise that, I know they are clueless right up front.
About a week ago it occurred to me that "Full Stack Developer" is what we used to call "Software Engineer." It's like suddenly understanding some idiom the locals are using; everything in the universe made a lot more sense.
Is that true?
I always took "Full Stack Developer" to mean "We're too cheap to hire a proper ops team, so we're going to expect you to serve triple-duty as Sysadmin, DBA, and Software Developer."
Maybe I've been unfairly ignoring a lot of postings?
I always took "Full Stack Developer" to mean "We're too cheap to hire a proper ops team, so we're going to expect you to serve triple-duty as Sysadmin, DBA, and Software Developer."
Maybe I've been unfairly ignoring a lot of postings?
>"...we're going to expect you to serve triple-duty as Sysadmin, DBA, and Software Developer."
>Maybe I've been unfairly ignoring a lot of postings?
If that's your impression, then I think you have been. By full-stack developer, many people in the start-up world simply mean someone who can work at all levels of web development, from server-side programming to Javascript, CSS, and HTML.
It's not an unreasonable use of the word, since web developers have long talked of "their stack", meaning what they use for server-side framework, caching, http server, as well as client-side frameworks and development environments.
I don't think most people use the term to include sysops, although in a small start-up you will inevitably be doing a lot of that.
If that's your impression, then I think you have been. By full-stack developer, many people in the start-up world simply mean someone who can work at all levels of web development, from server-side programming to Javascript, CSS, and HTML.
It's not an unreasonable use of the word, since web developers have long talked of "their stack", meaning what they use for server-side framework, caching, http server, as well as client-side frameworks and development environments.
I don't think most people use the term to include sysops, although in a small start-up you will inevitably be doing a lot of that.
> web developers have long talked of "their stack", meaning what they use for server-side framework, caching, http server, as well as client-side frameworks and development environments.
I guess I would consider the http/app/caching servers to be properly the province of sysops.
As a web developer, I consider myself to be responsible for server-side code/frameworks, database schemas (but not DB installation/configuration/replication), and perhaps client-side HTML/JS/CSS.
I'm capable of installing and doing basic setup for things like nginx, varnish, and uWSGI or passenger, but I find it frustrating and I'm certainly no expert in configuring for ideal performance.
I guess I would consider the http/app/caching servers to be properly the province of sysops.
As a web developer, I consider myself to be responsible for server-side code/frameworks, database schemas (but not DB installation/configuration/replication), and perhaps client-side HTML/JS/CSS.
I'm capable of installing and doing basic setup for things like nginx, varnish, and uWSGI or passenger, but I find it frustrating and I'm certainly no expert in configuring for ideal performance.
where does one fall in their list of choices if they are doing backend/server side code?
http://i.imgur.com/h20L66f.jpg
there seems to be no clear choice for that
http://i.imgur.com/h20L66f.jpg
there seems to be no clear choice for that
There's really very little excuse for not knowing enough front-end stuff to consider yourself a "full-stack web developer".
HTML/CSS are easy-peasy, and while some people don't like Javascript, it's hard to get away from and you can only increase your value as a developer by being able to work with it. Add to that a little bit of client-side tooling knowledge (Gulp, SCSS/LESS), and some familiarity with jQuery and you're good to go. Shouldn't take more than a week tops to get the hang of it all; no-one's saying you have to be a wizard.
You don't have to love front-end work (I enjoy it, but I also really like doing back-end work so I understand both perspectives), but you're doing yourself and anyone who employs you a disservice by not being at least a somewhat-solid front-end dev. Early-stage startups don't really have room for people without that level of versatility. If you're going to write code, you should be able to write front-end code, back-end code, and be able to administrate your startup's servers to some degree. If you can only do front-end, you'd better be at least a decent designer. If you can only do backend, you ought to be doing some kick-ass ops work. The phrase "T-shaped individual" comes to mind.
HTML/CSS are easy-peasy, and while some people don't like Javascript, it's hard to get away from and you can only increase your value as a developer by being able to work with it. Add to that a little bit of client-side tooling knowledge (Gulp, SCSS/LESS), and some familiarity with jQuery and you're good to go. Shouldn't take more than a week tops to get the hang of it all; no-one's saying you have to be a wizard.
You don't have to love front-end work (I enjoy it, but I also really like doing back-end work so I understand both perspectives), but you're doing yourself and anyone who employs you a disservice by not being at least a somewhat-solid front-end dev. Early-stage startups don't really have room for people without that level of versatility. If you're going to write code, you should be able to write front-end code, back-end code, and be able to administrate your startup's servers to some degree. If you can only do front-end, you'd better be at least a decent designer. If you can only do backend, you ought to be doing some kick-ass ops work. The phrase "T-shaped individual" comes to mind.
While amazing generalists/full-stack guys are great, having very strong individuals own a particular domain of the code can have its benefits as well. Sure, you miss a bit of oversight, but when you're in the building phase and you just want to Get Shit Done, it helps if you don't have someone else mucking around in your code while you're building it.
Absolutely, hence my comment towards the end about having T-shaped individuals. I worked on a startup team recently where responsibilities were pretty cleanly divided: I worked on the front end, and a coworker worked on the backend.
Both of us were much stronger at our chosen domains than the other, but we were also both strong enough on the other end to fill in any gaps. If we were doing mostly front-end stuff for a sprint, he was able to jump in without me having to worry about it, and vice-versa.
IMO, that's the kind of full-stack developers that early-stage startups (that aren't specifically tech-focused, eg language processing) need.
Both of us were much stronger at our chosen domains than the other, but we were also both strong enough on the other end to fill in any gaps. If we were doing mostly front-end stuff for a sprint, he was able to jump in without me having to worry about it, and vice-versa.
IMO, that's the kind of full-stack developers that early-stage startups (that aren't specifically tech-focused, eg language processing) need.
Am I missing something? You've essentially started a tech recruitment firm, right? Is there something novel about your business?
It appears to be the $0 plan from http://www.typeform.com/pricing/ + a landing page.
So I'd guess the only unique bits are any connections they might have.
So I'd guess the only unique bits are any connections they might have.
We quietly launched about a week ago and have already seen good quality and experience from technical talent. With 50+ engineers, designers, PM's on the platform. Some with 15 years of experience in their field or previous experience leading teams at well known companies
Co-founders of startups are signing up to find something new, PM's at tech companies are looking to join startups and engineers that think they might want to try something new are getting options.
We speak to every signup to evaluate if they're right for the platform and if we can find the right role for them. Once a company and employee are matched, they can communicate directly through their own process.
Co-founders of startups are signing up to find something new, PM's at tech companies are looking to join startups and engineers that think they might want to try something new are getting options.
We speak to every signup to evaluate if they're right for the platform and if we can find the right role for them. Once a company and employee are matched, they can communicate directly through their own process.
Was there any concern about a trademark conflict with TheLadders?
It's a different market & a generic term used in hiring (this is only for tech talent & curated approach), the name isn't that important though.
TheLadders - Find a ________ job (Higher paying)
Ladder - Find a ________ job. (Startup)
Not only that, but the domains are very close:
Ladder - Find a ________ job. (Startup)
Not only that, but the domains are very close:
tryladder.com
theladders.com
I thought the generic notion of career ladders was what people went into startups to avoid...
I assumed people went into startups because conventional career ladders don't exist anymore.
When was the last time you got a raise or promotion by staying with your company?
When was the last time you got a raise or promotion by staying with your company?
Around 2009, working at a university, personally.
Not that different - and this is liable to cause confusion.
IANAL but I agree that there does seem to be a conflict with http://www.theladders.com/
If you wouldn't mind providing some insight, I'm curious what your approach is to verifying a hire is w.r.t. collecting commission?
We want to get out of the way as much as possible. We're really involved with companies and check back in. Can check Linkedin, etc. We wait to see how the employee fits within the company.
If we connect companies with high quality hires they'll want to pay so that they can continue working with us. This will likely only scale to a certain size.
If we connect companies with high quality hires they'll want to pay so that they can continue working with us. This will likely only scale to a certain size.
> We don't ask the company to pay anything for 30 days, to see how it goes.
I genuinely would be surprised to see a company pay a sourcing fee in under 30 days, sometimes 60 or 90.
I genuinely would be surprised to see a company pay a sourcing fee in under 30 days, sometimes 60 or 90.
Thats the hardest part. I built something similar, although not anonymous (http://startupjob.me) and collecting is tough.
What I have been trying is incentivizing the candidate to also check back in if they have been hired. That way you don't have to rely on the companies alone.
What I have been trying is incentivizing the candidate to also check back in if they have been hired. That way you don't have to rely on the companies alone.
5% of salary? Forever? Are you crazy?
Add "remote" as a location and your signups will probably increase by double or more.
Added remote as an option
As someone who works at Typeform, it's AWESOME to see people using our product to make MVPs like this.
Best of luck, it's an interesting concept. (And one I could have done with a few years back).
Best of luck, it's an interesting concept. (And one I could have done with a few years back).
Why is github or online portfolio a requirement? It doesn't explain what's being verified, or what we should do if we don't have either of those things.
Your competitors at Hired.com and elsewhere are investing big money to compete to move passives into active mode. I wish you the best of luck, but competition here is brutal and it's not clear what your unique value proposition or edge is here.
Lastly, "anonymous job searches" is the way of the passive seeker, but it's very hard to get them to make a decision. The chain of interaction requires much more ways to engage than their filling out a few boxes on what they do and where they live/email. If you could bring to the surface things that passives like but will not reveal to just anyone, you may be able to create an edge. However, it's tough meng. It's tough out there for a recruiting platform.