Is an MBA worth it?
I don't know what to do. Got accepted to a top ten school, but think I can learn everything online.
12 comments
I worked in product marketing management for a couple years, as a break from software development, alongside MBAs. Every MBA I met I asked that question to, and every one of them said that there was value in the networking, but not much value in the education itself.
If you're thinking about building a career in early-stage tech companies, I'd also worry that the rules are changing too fast for a curriculum to track them, and they are bending more in the direction of software development than in business arcana like Porter's 5 Forces.
Accounting courses, though. Being able to work with cash flows. People have told me that was valuable. Of course, you can get that without paying for an MBA.
If you're thinking about building a career in early-stage tech companies, I'd also worry that the rules are changing too fast for a curriculum to track them, and they are bending more in the direction of software development than in business arcana like Porter's 5 Forces.
Accounting courses, though. Being able to work with cash flows. People have told me that was valuable. Of course, you can get that without paying for an MBA.
I have an MBA and I am a software developer. Looking at it purely from a financial perspective, I wouldn't do it again unless: a) I could get some tuition assistance from my current employer and b) I could identify specifically how it would help my career after graduation.
From a knowledge perspective, my emphasis was in Finance and I learned a lot about corporate valuation, capital structure, raising capital, foreign currency, exchange rates, arbitrage, etc. Most of all of that was theory. If I were to get a finance job, I'd have a good basis for all of the things I'd still have to learn to apply those theories to reality. Other than my emphasis classes, there were some really great classes (Operations, Strategy, Ethics, Entrepreneurial studies, Negotiation and Mediation), some "ok" classes (Accounting, Cost/price, some applied math classes) and some classes that were completely worthless (touchy feely HR classes, classes that taught the management theory de jour, etc). I read more business books than I can count, read and discussed many, many case studies, wrote dozens of papers and gave countless power point presentations. This was useful in that I was exposed to a lot of opposing ideas, learned to write for business, learned how bad power point is at conveying information and generally got better at public presentation.
Generally speaking, the value wasn't in the coursework itself, you can get that for almost nothing by reading a bunch of books. There are lots of online classes that you can take for free and you can go to toastmasters to improve your presentation skills. The value was in the other people in the program: a) class discussion is between students who all have work experience and come from different backgrounds and b) networking. Not all MBA programs are created equally, investigate the curriculum and talk to some current students. Find out how many classes are taught by faculty vs. adjunct professors. Adjunct professors aren't always bad, especially if they are currently working in the industry they are teaching classes about and are willing to help you with networking after graduation. Find out what style of program is it. Mine was more entrepreneurial focused and less "big management" focused, so it largely avoided the issue of cranking out a bunch of group think clones that think they can solve any issue by applying some classroom theories. With all of the reading, writing and presenting, I can see how easily it would be to fall into that trap after you've cleverly navigated so many various case studies by applying various popular management strategies.
If you want to start a business, some MBA programs can be helpful because of the networking and because you'll have enough knowledge of various business topics to better engage accountants, lawyers and other professionals. If you have a corporate job, it can be a good tool to help climb the management ladder - some companies require it to rise to certain levels in management. If this is true, see if they'll pay for part of it. I personally think all of the programs are overpriced. I also think the actual value of the MBA has decreased as more universities crank out more MBAs semester after semester. If you can two or three immediate benefits, if you can find a style of program that meets your needs and if you can afford it, go for it. You won't be worse off coming out of the program, but you might not be as better off as you hoped to be.
From a knowledge perspective, my emphasis was in Finance and I learned a lot about corporate valuation, capital structure, raising capital, foreign currency, exchange rates, arbitrage, etc. Most of all of that was theory. If I were to get a finance job, I'd have a good basis for all of the things I'd still have to learn to apply those theories to reality. Other than my emphasis classes, there were some really great classes (Operations, Strategy, Ethics, Entrepreneurial studies, Negotiation and Mediation), some "ok" classes (Accounting, Cost/price, some applied math classes) and some classes that were completely worthless (touchy feely HR classes, classes that taught the management theory de jour, etc). I read more business books than I can count, read and discussed many, many case studies, wrote dozens of papers and gave countless power point presentations. This was useful in that I was exposed to a lot of opposing ideas, learned to write for business, learned how bad power point is at conveying information and generally got better at public presentation.
Generally speaking, the value wasn't in the coursework itself, you can get that for almost nothing by reading a bunch of books. There are lots of online classes that you can take for free and you can go to toastmasters to improve your presentation skills. The value was in the other people in the program: a) class discussion is between students who all have work experience and come from different backgrounds and b) networking. Not all MBA programs are created equally, investigate the curriculum and talk to some current students. Find out how many classes are taught by faculty vs. adjunct professors. Adjunct professors aren't always bad, especially if they are currently working in the industry they are teaching classes about and are willing to help you with networking after graduation. Find out what style of program is it. Mine was more entrepreneurial focused and less "big management" focused, so it largely avoided the issue of cranking out a bunch of group think clones that think they can solve any issue by applying some classroom theories. With all of the reading, writing and presenting, I can see how easily it would be to fall into that trap after you've cleverly navigated so many various case studies by applying various popular management strategies.
If you want to start a business, some MBA programs can be helpful because of the networking and because you'll have enough knowledge of various business topics to better engage accountants, lawyers and other professionals. If you have a corporate job, it can be a good tool to help climb the management ladder - some companies require it to rise to certain levels in management. If this is true, see if they'll pay for part of it. I personally think all of the programs are overpriced. I also think the actual value of the MBA has decreased as more universities crank out more MBAs semester after semester. If you can two or three immediate benefits, if you can find a style of program that meets your needs and if you can afford it, go for it. You won't be worse off coming out of the program, but you might not be as better off as you hoped to be.
Congratulations - once you are accepted the rest is easy - after the decision that is.
It's time for some deep thinking - each case is very personal and you need to decide what's important to you and determine what you will get from going to a great school.
For me I saw Positives: - Learning: although in theory I could learn as much from books or by just doing it, I was going to be in a learning environment where I would have great teachers and peers - and the focus was learning. I learned a huge amount, and I recommend over-loading, getting beyond the business school and picking your subjects by professor as well as by what you want to learn. - Rubber stamping: My background before MBA school was hard to describe to people, but having an MBA from X made it easy to describe what I was and what I could do. - Opportunity: It certainly opens doors that sometimes I didn't even know existed, in my case PE and McKinsey, and in other peoples' cases start-ups and so on. The net present value of your future income certainly rises, but you'll also take more control of your future. - USA: If you are from offshore then you get the right to work in the USA after you finish. It's not that simple but the USA is where a vast amount of business gets done and so you get to deal with big numbers. - Change: It's a definitive move (and market signal) that you want to change what you do, either to switch careers or to upgrade the path that you are on. - People: You get to meet and hang out with a group of highly vetted amazing people for two years, and longer. - Fun. This was the deciding factor for me. It was a legitimate two years away from work and doing stuff that was enjoyable.
and Negatives:
Cash flow: You simultaneously stop working and start spending a large amount of money, and that's going to set you back for a few years. But I focussed on net present value and it all worked out alright. For some the payoff may be negative, but with an MBA you should forever be able to find decent paying work. Options: Going to school means you can't do something else in that time. While most things can be put off for a couple of years, if your mate Bill has invited you to join him at his start-up called Micro-soft* then maybe you should do that instead. USA: If you are not from the USA then the food, politics, police and poverty may be difficult to live with. It all depends on where you are coming from, and which school you are going too. Some schools are in or near upsettingly poor and violent areas. Meanwhile that right to work post degree isn't necessarily a right to stay and do a start-up - so watch out.
Overall if you can get into a top school it's generally a sign that you don't really need to go. If you do go, I generally recommend you should, then embrace it by experimenting with subjects and activities, treating it as a collaborative rather than competitive situation and making sure you are having fun.
(*Steve Ballmer didn't do the second year of his Stanford MBA for this reason)
It's time for some deep thinking - each case is very personal and you need to decide what's important to you and determine what you will get from going to a great school.
For me I saw Positives: - Learning: although in theory I could learn as much from books or by just doing it, I was going to be in a learning environment where I would have great teachers and peers - and the focus was learning. I learned a huge amount, and I recommend over-loading, getting beyond the business school and picking your subjects by professor as well as by what you want to learn. - Rubber stamping: My background before MBA school was hard to describe to people, but having an MBA from X made it easy to describe what I was and what I could do. - Opportunity: It certainly opens doors that sometimes I didn't even know existed, in my case PE and McKinsey, and in other peoples' cases start-ups and so on. The net present value of your future income certainly rises, but you'll also take more control of your future. - USA: If you are from offshore then you get the right to work in the USA after you finish. It's not that simple but the USA is where a vast amount of business gets done and so you get to deal with big numbers. - Change: It's a definitive move (and market signal) that you want to change what you do, either to switch careers or to upgrade the path that you are on. - People: You get to meet and hang out with a group of highly vetted amazing people for two years, and longer. - Fun. This was the deciding factor for me. It was a legitimate two years away from work and doing stuff that was enjoyable.
and Negatives:
Cash flow: You simultaneously stop working and start spending a large amount of money, and that's going to set you back for a few years. But I focussed on net present value and it all worked out alright. For some the payoff may be negative, but with an MBA you should forever be able to find decent paying work. Options: Going to school means you can't do something else in that time. While most things can be put off for a couple of years, if your mate Bill has invited you to join him at his start-up called Micro-soft* then maybe you should do that instead. USA: If you are not from the USA then the food, politics, police and poverty may be difficult to live with. It all depends on where you are coming from, and which school you are going too. Some schools are in or near upsettingly poor and violent areas. Meanwhile that right to work post degree isn't necessarily a right to stay and do a start-up - so watch out.
Overall if you can get into a top school it's generally a sign that you don't really need to go. If you do go, I generally recommend you should, then embrace it by experimenting with subjects and activities, treating it as a collaborative rather than competitive situation and making sure you are having fun.
(*Steve Ballmer didn't do the second year of his Stanford MBA for this reason)
Mine was 4 nights per week for 2.5 years. Not all programs are during the day and force you to give up working. However, working and going to school left me time for nothing else. I had to reintroduce myself to my old friends after graduation.
Wow, thanks HN. Really appreciate the advice. Funny, I expected to hear more of the hacker mentality -- forge your own path, cut the fat, efficiency efficiency efficiency. Found this great DIY MBA post while trolling old HN posts. http://jfornear.co/diy-harvard-mba/
A little background is this is a one-year add-on to an MD. The healthcare aspect is a whole separate discussion, but briefly, my decision is complicated by the fact that I will be doing a residency and not using any of the MBA skills for several years (besides the leadership, team management, etc.). I'm hoping the MBA will serve as a starting point for launching a healthcare-related technology company later in my career -- writing a business plan, drawing on former connections for co-founding, securing funding, etc. I think most of the considerations you all mentioned regarding the decision still apply.
Do I think the skills are worth learning? Yes, absolutely. Are the business course offerings directly in line with what I'm passionate about at the moment (coding, stats, data analysis, web dev)? There's overlap, but this is one of my bigger sticking points. Am I going to be bored out my mind in Accounting? Sometimes I wonder if I should wait until after residency and go for a hardcore Informatics MS. Do I like the idea of delaying work/income for a year? No. Do I like the idea of taking on so much debt? No way. Do I want to surround myself with intelligent people who have the balls to start companies and move large sums of money around? Hell yeah. This is one of the biggest draws. Do I want a corporate job? I like the idea that an MBA could mark me for leadership at an academic medical center. Do I like (and need) structure? As much as I love MOOCS/MIT open courseware and think of myself as an auto-didactic person, I know myself enough to say that the going would be much tougher without a formal program.
It's not an easy choice, but I'm grateful to have the chance to make it. Appreciate your insights.
A little background is this is a one-year add-on to an MD. The healthcare aspect is a whole separate discussion, but briefly, my decision is complicated by the fact that I will be doing a residency and not using any of the MBA skills for several years (besides the leadership, team management, etc.). I'm hoping the MBA will serve as a starting point for launching a healthcare-related technology company later in my career -- writing a business plan, drawing on former connections for co-founding, securing funding, etc. I think most of the considerations you all mentioned regarding the decision still apply.
Do I think the skills are worth learning? Yes, absolutely. Are the business course offerings directly in line with what I'm passionate about at the moment (coding, stats, data analysis, web dev)? There's overlap, but this is one of my bigger sticking points. Am I going to be bored out my mind in Accounting? Sometimes I wonder if I should wait until after residency and go for a hardcore Informatics MS. Do I like the idea of delaying work/income for a year? No. Do I like the idea of taking on so much debt? No way. Do I want to surround myself with intelligent people who have the balls to start companies and move large sums of money around? Hell yeah. This is one of the biggest draws. Do I want a corporate job? I like the idea that an MBA could mark me for leadership at an academic medical center. Do I like (and need) structure? As much as I love MOOCS/MIT open courseware and think of myself as an auto-didactic person, I know myself enough to say that the going would be much tougher without a formal program.
It's not an easy choice, but I'm grateful to have the chance to make it. Appreciate your insights.
Of course you can learn online. So what? Here;s why you need to saddle yourself with $125,000 additional debt-- even though it might become useless soon.
Let me explain how companies hire. If you want a job done, there are two things you can look for in an applicant.
COMPETENCE. You verify the ability to do work. You can do this by (a) asking the person to perform tasks, (b) reviewing examples of their current or past work or (c) conducting an interview that is so highly detailed that it shows that they understand the work
Verifying competence takes a fair amount of time, so you can only do it for a few people, unless you want to spend all your time doing it.
CREDENTIALS. Ask the person to submit pieces of paper that indicate ability to do work. This includes (1) years of experience in the industry (2) employment with a company who does the work, (3) references or recommendations from people who do the work and (4) a college degree.
Credentials don't guarantee that the person has any competence (even if they aren't lying, they could have been a complete screwup). But they take very little time to process-- any job-tracking application (Taleo) can automate the work.
Guess which method most companies use.
A friend who is a criminal defense attorney has a saying that applies. "It's nice that you're innocent. But how can you prove it?"
I'm confident that you can learn everything an MBA knows, and learn it better than most MBAs do, and understand more. (I have.)
Very few employers will take the time to verify that you do. If YOU don't have the credential, they'll give the job to someone who does.
NOTE: All the preceding assumes you want to be hired for jobs that require an MBA in the posting. If that's not the case, it's an entirely different issue, but one nobody can answer.
Let me explain how companies hire. If you want a job done, there are two things you can look for in an applicant.
COMPETENCE. You verify the ability to do work. You can do this by (a) asking the person to perform tasks, (b) reviewing examples of their current or past work or (c) conducting an interview that is so highly detailed that it shows that they understand the work
Verifying competence takes a fair amount of time, so you can only do it for a few people, unless you want to spend all your time doing it.
CREDENTIALS. Ask the person to submit pieces of paper that indicate ability to do work. This includes (1) years of experience in the industry (2) employment with a company who does the work, (3) references or recommendations from people who do the work and (4) a college degree.
Credentials don't guarantee that the person has any competence (even if they aren't lying, they could have been a complete screwup). But they take very little time to process-- any job-tracking application (Taleo) can automate the work.
Guess which method most companies use.
A friend who is a criminal defense attorney has a saying that applies. "It's nice that you're innocent. But how can you prove it?"
I'm confident that you can learn everything an MBA knows, and learn it better than most MBAs do, and understand more. (I have.)
Very few employers will take the time to verify that you do. If YOU don't have the credential, they'll give the job to someone who does.
NOTE: All the preceding assumes you want to be hired for jobs that require an MBA in the posting. If that's not the case, it's an entirely different issue, but one nobody can answer.
There are different ways of looking at this. Some I've come up with are ROI, happiness, and intelligence.
If you quit working for two years and pay for school, will you gain money in the long term? When?
If you are able to attend school, will it make you happier in the near term? Will your new career and life trajectory make you happier in the long term?
Do you think the knowledge and skills you'll learn while getting an MBA are worthwhile to learn for two years? Will these skills apply in the long term?
I know MBAs get knocked around a lot here, but my own opinion is there will be something to gain in attending class with smart, motivated individuals while at a resource-rich learning center, such as a top ten school.
If you quit working for two years and pay for school, will you gain money in the long term? When?
If you are able to attend school, will it make you happier in the near term? Will your new career and life trajectory make you happier in the long term?
Do you think the knowledge and skills you'll learn while getting an MBA are worthwhile to learn for two years? Will these skills apply in the long term?
I know MBAs get knocked around a lot here, but my own opinion is there will be something to gain in attending class with smart, motivated individuals while at a resource-rich learning center, such as a top ten school.
Yes an MBA is worth it. Especially one through a good school.
Education teaches you discipline and foundation skills. I cannot begin to describe the importance of both. The former is super important in productive people and the latter will help you move faster as an employee or a founder.
How many success stories do you know of education done via online learning? Online learning sites are great at delivering content but poor at motivating users to continue learning, creating a human connection (business is done through humans not machines) and as a reference.
FYI, I have a B. Computer Science and an MBA.. and code.
PS. Congrats on getting accepted to a top school!
Education teaches you discipline and foundation skills. I cannot begin to describe the importance of both. The former is super important in productive people and the latter will help you move faster as an employee or a founder.
How many success stories do you know of education done via online learning? Online learning sites are great at delivering content but poor at motivating users to continue learning, creating a human connection (business is done through humans not machines) and as a reference.
FYI, I have a B. Computer Science and an MBA.. and code.
PS. Congrats on getting accepted to a top school!
I'm finishing up B.S. in Information Systems, which is pretty much a business degree with a couple of programming classes. I'm getting to the point where I need to make a decision about a graduate degree, so I have a question for you.
Do business classes ever get to the point where they stop feeling like literally every aspect of running/managing a business is a common sense decision that someone should automatically know the answer to? My economics classes were pretty enlightening, but pretty much everything else was a waste of time and money. Does it get better?
Do business classes ever get to the point where they stop feeling like literally every aspect of running/managing a business is a common sense decision that someone should automatically know the answer to? My economics classes were pretty enlightening, but pretty much everything else was a waste of time and money. Does it get better?
Do you want a corporate job? Then the MBA and the school at which you earned it is of some importance. Also remember that there is an oversupply of MBAs - too much supply, falling demand. So even if you dream of a high paying corporate job, you will have to accept that there is a high level of competition.
BTW: I don't have an MBA, so my view is that of an outsider looking in, based on a mixture of real world (TM) observations and reading business magazine articles.
BTW: I don't have an MBA, so my view is that of an outsider looking in, based on a mixture of real world (TM) observations and reading business magazine articles.
By that logic you would never go to any school since you can learn almost anything online.
But the MBA's value includes branding and networking, which is why you made a point of mentioning the "top ten" school.
What is your alternative? Is it a rare opportunity?
If you got into HBS, GSB or Wharton, I would almost certainly go to B-school.
You don't do an MBA to learn, you do it to get a Harvard/Stanford stamp on your resume and to party with future movers and shakers. Duh.
I think the biggest benefit is the network you will build there. There are some really cool/smart people there.