The Self(ie) Generation(nytimes.com)
nytimes.com
The Self(ie) Generation
http://nytimes.com/2014/03/08/opinion/blow-the-self-ie-generation.html?from=mostemailed
37 comments
Socrates was just pretty conservative, he was also against the idea of writing:
" ...this discovery of yours will create forgetfulness in the learners’ souls, because they will not use their memories; they will trust to the external written characters and not remember of themselves. The specific which you have discovered is an aid not to memory, but to reminiscence, and you give your disciples not truth, but only the semblance of truth; they will be hearers of many things and will have learned nothing; they will appear to be omniscient and will generally know nothing; they will be tiresome company, having the show of wisdom without the reality."
" ...this discovery of yours will create forgetfulness in the learners’ souls, because they will not use their memories; they will trust to the external written characters and not remember of themselves. The specific which you have discovered is an aid not to memory, but to reminiscence, and you give your disciples not truth, but only the semblance of truth; they will be hearers of many things and will have learned nothing; they will appear to be omniscient and will generally know nothing; they will be tiresome company, having the show of wisdom without the reality."
In some sense, he is right.
With writing, people did not develop memories as powerful as they did when traditions were oral -- there was no need. How many people can recite epic poems or plays from memory, let alone the Odyssey? Extremely few could these days, relatively few could 1000 years ago, and many more could 2000+ years ago. And you can bet that those who developed powerful memories in the time of Socrates would be among the most wise and cultured, so his complaint is not an unreasonable one to make. Besides, Socrates was perennially the devil's advocate and its not impossible if you had caught him on a different day he would've argued the opposite case.
Taking it further, his quote applies equally to the advent of the internet, especially search engines. Many people outsource their memory to Google -- they will even look up things on their phone in the middle of a conversation because they've forgotten its name.
With writing, people did not develop memories as powerful as they did when traditions were oral -- there was no need. How many people can recite epic poems or plays from memory, let alone the Odyssey? Extremely few could these days, relatively few could 1000 years ago, and many more could 2000+ years ago. And you can bet that those who developed powerful memories in the time of Socrates would be among the most wise and cultured, so his complaint is not an unreasonable one to make. Besides, Socrates was perennially the devil's advocate and its not impossible if you had caught him on a different day he would've argued the opposite case.
Taking it further, his quote applies equally to the advent of the internet, especially search engines. Many people outsource their memory to Google -- they will even look up things on their phone in the middle of a conversation because they've forgotten its name.
In the words of Henry Jones Sr. "I wrote it down so I wouldn't have to remember."
Rote memory is fallible, fleeting and failing (in that order). Memorizing epic poetry is a noble cause, but even Plato would prefer to use those mental resources for applications more pertinent to a greater understanding of our physical reality. This sentiment accounts for the rapid transition to physically-recorded data, which everyone seems to agree was a general step in the right direction.
Rote memory is fallible, fleeting and failing (in that order). Memorizing epic poetry is a noble cause, but even Plato would prefer to use those mental resources for applications more pertinent to a greater understanding of our physical reality. This sentiment accounts for the rapid transition to physically-recorded data, which everyone seems to agree was a general step in the right direction.
Here's a really great SF story about the effects of technology on memory (ancient and modern):
http://subterraneanpress.com/magazine/fall_2013/the_truth_of...
http://subterraneanpress.com/magazine/fall_2013/the_truth_of...
"they will appear to be omniscient and will generally know nothing"
Does this describe me, with Google at my fingertips? I hope not.
Does this describe me, with Google at my fingertips? I hope not.
I believe it describes a great number of people.
Apparently that quote's disputed -- while there's another one that seems less so:
"We live in a decaying age. Young people no longer respect their parents. They are rude and impatient. They frequently inhabit taverns and have no self control." -- attributed to an inscription in an Ancient Egyptian tomb, quoted in Buckminster Fuller's I Seem To Be a Verb.
"We live in a decaying age. Young people no longer respect their parents. They are rude and impatient. They frequently inhabit taverns and have no self control." -- attributed to an inscription in an Ancient Egyptian tomb, quoted in Buckminster Fuller's I Seem To Be a Verb.
The Times and friends seem to write a whole lot of "kids these days" articles about the so-called Millennials. Usually about how self-centred or lazy or entitled they are but sometimes as lazy as "they use the internet more" and "they take a lot of selfies and make so many twitters".
Does every generation do this about its youngers? I've only lived through a few "named" generations but I feel like I didn't see nearly this much judgemental coverage about other ones. I know every generation thinks that they're the best and the others are all just old fogeys or youngin twerps but most editoral outlets don't seem to cover much else lately.
Does every generation do this about its youngers? I've only lived through a few "named" generations but I feel like I didn't see nearly this much judgemental coverage about other ones. I know every generation thinks that they're the best and the others are all just old fogeys or youngin twerps but most editoral outlets don't seem to cover much else lately.
> Does every generation do this about its youngers?
This sort of journalistic sophistry has been popular since the end of World War Two and catered to the need for the Baby Boomers (the only group to which this sort of generalization can really be accurate) to justify their feelings of self-importance, as they knew they couldn't match the heroics of their warrior parentage. If you think this is bad, you should have seen what they wrote about Gen X.
Nobody but the Boomers really gives a shit about it, and once they're all gone, I predict this naming-and-shaming nonsense will go with them.
This sort of journalistic sophistry has been popular since the end of World War Two and catered to the need for the Baby Boomers (the only group to which this sort of generalization can really be accurate) to justify their feelings of self-importance, as they knew they couldn't match the heroics of their warrior parentage. If you think this is bad, you should have seen what they wrote about Gen X.
Nobody but the Boomers really gives a shit about it, and once they're all gone, I predict this naming-and-shaming nonsense will go with them.
I really don't think so. Being perplexed/disgusted by the iniquities of the younger generation has been going on for a long time and will in all likelihood continue. I do agree that there's a lot of boomer-focused "get off my lawn" stuff in the NYT, though. That's their audience.
> Being perplexed/disgusted by the iniquities of the younger generation has been going on for a long time
Well, sure, but there's a difference between the normal run-of-the-mill "kids think they invented sex"-type bitching and this naming-of-the-generations claptrap. Google up some of the old articles, they're the height of verbose, narcissistic inanity. It took a special kind of self-involvement to generate this crap.
Well, sure, but there's a difference between the normal run-of-the-mill "kids think they invented sex"-type bitching and this naming-of-the-generations claptrap. Google up some of the old articles, they're the height of verbose, narcissistic inanity. It took a special kind of self-involvement to generate this crap.
Pretty sure it's common to older generations throughout history. The famous one (possibly apocryphal, I can't remember) is Socrates lamenting the fact that kids these days were writing things down instead of memorizing and preserving the oral tradition.
Edit to add also that Horace wrote (in latin of course):
"And yet with crimes to us unknown, Our sons shall mark the coming age their own."
Edit to add also that Horace wrote (in latin of course):
"And yet with crimes to us unknown, Our sons shall mark the coming age their own."
Oh yes!!
I remember a circa 1993 article about Gen-X (or whatever): about how they were lazy, grunge was just wanna-be 70's rock, they never did anything new and were just copying the Boomers.
I wish (WISH!) I'd kept it so I could have emailed the author to ask if they got in on the Netscape IPO.
I remember a circa 1993 article about Gen-X (or whatever): about how they were lazy, grunge was just wanna-be 70's rock, they never did anything new and were just copying the Boomers.
I wish (WISH!) I'd kept it so I could have emailed the author to ask if they got in on the Netscape IPO.
I don't see why the majority of HN commenters assume that the article has a negative bent. All he did was list the results of the PEW study and briefly discuss political ramifications for the two major US parties. The only fault I can find with this article is the completely erroneous last sentence (and title) which mentions the "selfie" -- this just seems to be a bit of link bait as selfies are a seemingly hot topic lately. Otherwise, I think this is a pretty interesting summary of survey results and downright neutral compared to the vast sea of curmudgeonly articles about Millenials floating around these days.
As the Millennials gather in self-pity on HN. I just throw in I try to avoid hiring Millenials at all cost. They are so full of self-worth, they have nothing to prove - ever. Will bail when any project gets tough, believe they are entitled to all privileges earned after 30 minutes on a job. Worse, you might have to talk to their parents on the phone about their poor job review.
I'm over 30 so probably not a millenial.
Honestly whose fault is is that millenials are so shitty? It's not the millenial's fault that their parents raised them horribly, didn't ever let them fail (for fear of ruining their future!) and obsessively planned any and all aspects of their lives.
When did the "everyone should have lots of self-esteem because we're all unique snowflakes!" movement get started? If you take the year that really got going and add 10-20 to the number, does that roughly approximate the point at which you started to realize that these kids are all worthless?
Of course that generalization that I've made of the parents and education of millenials isn't entirely true; I'm sure plenty of them had perfectly decent parents. But if we're going to make generalizations let's talk about both sides of it. Kids don't really grow up in a vacuum.
Honestly whose fault is is that millenials are so shitty? It's not the millenial's fault that their parents raised them horribly, didn't ever let them fail (for fear of ruining their future!) and obsessively planned any and all aspects of their lives.
When did the "everyone should have lots of self-esteem because we're all unique snowflakes!" movement get started? If you take the year that really got going and add 10-20 to the number, does that roughly approximate the point at which you started to realize that these kids are all worthless?
Of course that generalization that I've made of the parents and education of millenials isn't entirely true; I'm sure plenty of them had perfectly decent parents. But if we're going to make generalizations let's talk about both sides of it. Kids don't really grow up in a vacuum.
According to the article, you probably are included:
> defined by Pew as Americans ages 18 to 33
> defined by Pew as Americans ages 18 to 33
Okay, let's go!
"Generation X, commonly abbreviated to Gen X, is the generation born after the Western Post–World War II baby boom. Demographers, historians and commentators use beginning birth dates from the early 1960s to the early 1980s."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_X
"Millennials, or the Millennial Generation,[1] also known as Generation Y, are the demographic cohort following Generation X. There are no precise dates when the generation starts and ends. Commentators use beginning birth years from the early 1980s to the early 2000s."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennials
"Generation Z is one name used for the cohort of people born after the Millennial Generation. There is no agreement on the exact dates of the generation with some sources starting it at the mid or late 1990s [1] or from the mid 2000s [2] to the present day. This is the generation that is currently being born."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_Z
Alright so what have we learned?
Gen X: early 1960s to early 1980s
Gen Y: early 1980s to early 2000s
Gen Z: mid 1990s/early 2000s to today and further
You can't really have a clear start and end date to broad generalizations because the nature of a generalization prevents it.
"Generation X, commonly abbreviated to Gen X, is the generation born after the Western Post–World War II baby boom. Demographers, historians and commentators use beginning birth dates from the early 1960s to the early 1980s."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_X
"Millennials, or the Millennial Generation,[1] also known as Generation Y, are the demographic cohort following Generation X. There are no precise dates when the generation starts and ends. Commentators use beginning birth years from the early 1980s to the early 2000s."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennials
"Generation Z is one name used for the cohort of people born after the Millennial Generation. There is no agreement on the exact dates of the generation with some sources starting it at the mid or late 1990s [1] or from the mid 2000s [2] to the present day. This is the generation that is currently being born."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_Z
Alright so what have we learned?
Gen X: early 1960s to early 1980s
Gen Y: early 1980s to early 2000s
Gen Z: mid 1990s/early 2000s to today and further
You can't really have a clear start and end date to broad generalizations because the nature of a generalization prevents it.
I agree, I just was relaying what was stated in the article (1981 to 2000 birth years).
When I hear "millennial generation", I think not of birth year, but rather of the set of people who grew up along with what we now refer to as the "technology industry".
We tend to take for granted nowadays that next year is going to be phenomenally different than this year, in terms of the tools that we use to communicate, have fun and get things done.
For "millennials", this is very easy to comprehend, because our whole lives are constructed around this constant change. I think it's much harder for people even slightly older (or later exposed to tech).
When I hear "millennial generation", I think not of birth year, but rather of the set of people who grew up along with what we now refer to as the "technology industry".
We tend to take for granted nowadays that next year is going to be phenomenally different than this year, in terms of the tools that we use to communicate, have fun and get things done.
For "millennials", this is very easy to comprehend, because our whole lives are constructed around this constant change. I think it's much harder for people even slightly older (or later exposed to tech).
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Is that what you tell yourself when you get passed up for promotions and the startup you chickened out on goes gangbusters? Or do you really think you are better than an entire generation?
I'm apparently a millennial and don't fit your mold at all. I work my ass off and try to get better at what I do every day. Good thing my bosses are good managers, businessmen, and people. I can't say the same for someone who disregards an entire group of people due to some preconceived notion of their character.
You know, we (Millennials) don't run around just solely blaming previous (perhaps your) generations for massively ruining the economy (not to mention the Earth!) at right around the time we were coming into job seeking.
I can't speak to any industry, but in non-profit arts, more conversations than not between me and my Millennial coworkers are about how to save the American Theater, how to be able to pay people living wages, how we are sticking it out through under-payment (my bosses boss, one of the top five people in the organization makes less than a 5th yr salary for a dev at Amazon) and over-work (and she works 60 hours a week, minimum) so that we can provide a service for the community and continue to do so.
Try hiring a Millennial, because it seems like all you've done is read the Times on Millennials.
I can't speak to any industry, but in non-profit arts, more conversations than not between me and my Millennial coworkers are about how to save the American Theater, how to be able to pay people living wages, how we are sticking it out through under-payment (my bosses boss, one of the top five people in the organization makes less than a 5th yr salary for a dev at Amazon) and over-work (and she works 60 hours a week, minimum) so that we can provide a service for the community and continue to do so.
Try hiring a Millennial, because it seems like all you've done is read the Times on Millennials.
First of all, what manifold said is exactly what I have said to people for years. I am 24 years old and the mindset of you any all others like you is completely ridiculous. All this does is hurt our whole society. Who do you think is going to take care of the place you live when you retire? Other retired people? You know the answer and so do I. I am looking for work currently and while I have not been looking long I see that there is a problem and it is that people don't want to hire entry level positions or young people they don't trust them. When someone like you says this it just makes me think there is a much bigger problem. I see that companies want people with experience and the pool is shrinking constantly. Companies and people like you need to work with our generation to create an experienced pool of workers in all industries. I work hard and I know it. I have had plenty of things handed to me but I have also worked extremely hard. I know this because of the levels of success I have had I the face of many failures. If you need references for my work ethic I have too many to count and they are all from older generations. I am smart, strong, and confident and your type will not get in our way. So why not help us all understand your perspective instead of saying we are wrong and you are right and there is nothing we can do about it?
Whatever other harsh criticism is routinely leveled at the Millenials, this video - "You Are Not Special" Commencement Speech from Wellesley High School - seems to have struck a chord with American parents.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lfxYhtf8o4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lfxYhtf8o4
Sample bias. The Millenials who are good at what we do and not spoiled brats? We mostly don't bother with these threads on the internet, because we have actual work to do.
I'm gonna get back to that now.
I'm gonna get back to that now.
[deleted]
"...numbers that are at or near the highest levels of political and religious disaffiliation recorded for any generation in the last quarter-century." Seriously. How many generations are in a 25-year span?
He noticed that "self" is the root of "selfie"... Deep insight here folks.
Generalizations are annoying. Not sure which "gen" I am (was born in mid 80's) I have dealt with it from family quite a bit and so has my wife. Saying we stayed in school rather than get "real jobs" (we each have masters degrees and she's a full time professor and I work as a full time business consultant). And that we don't understand "hard work" (she easily works 80 hours a week counting time in and out of the classroom and meetings and I regularly work until dawn). It's understandable as that's just sort of how people react to young people, but it is tiring.
They [Young People] have exalted notions, because they have not been humbled by life or learned its necessary limitations; moreover, their hopeful disposition makes them think themselves equal to great things -- and that means having exalted notions. They would always rather do noble deeds than useful ones: Their lives are regulated more by moral feeling than by reasoning -- all their mistakes are in the direction of doing things excessively and vehemently. They overdo everything -- they love too much, hate too much, and the same with everything else.
(Aristotle)
"The world is passing through troublous times. The young people of today think of nothing but themselves. They have no reverence for parents or old age. They are impatient of all restraint. They talk as if they knew everything, and what passes for wisdom with us is foolishness with them. As for the girls, they are forward, immodest and unladylike in speech, behavior and dress." (From a sermon preached by Peter the Hermit in A.D. 1274)
"I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond words... When I was young, we were taught to be discreet and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise [disrespectful] and impatient of restraint". (Hesiod, 8th century BC)
"I believe what really happens in history is this: the old man is always wrong; and the young people are always wrong about what is wrong with him. The practical form it takes is this: that, while the old man may stand by some stupid custom, the young man always attacks it with some theory that turns out to be equally stupid." (G.K. Chesterton)
Socrates 'The children now love luxury; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are tyrants, not servants of the households. They no longer rise when their elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize over their teachers.' (Commonly attributed to SOCRATES by Plato)
http://proto-knowledge.blogspot.com/2010/11/what-is-wrong-wi...
"The world is passing through troublous times. The young people of today think of nothing but themselves. They have no reverence for parents or old age. They are impatient of all restraint. They talk as if they knew everything, and what passes for wisdom with us is foolishness with them. As for the girls, they are forward, immodest and unladylike in speech, behavior and dress." (From a sermon preached by Peter the Hermit in A.D. 1274)
"I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond words... When I was young, we were taught to be discreet and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise [disrespectful] and impatient of restraint". (Hesiod, 8th century BC)
"I believe what really happens in history is this: the old man is always wrong; and the young people are always wrong about what is wrong with him. The practical form it takes is this: that, while the old man may stand by some stupid custom, the young man always attacks it with some theory that turns out to be equally stupid." (G.K. Chesterton)
Socrates 'The children now love luxury; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are tyrants, not servants of the households. They no longer rise when their elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize over their teachers.' (Commonly attributed to SOCRATES by Plato)
http://proto-knowledge.blogspot.com/2010/11/what-is-wrong-wi...
To be fair, you can find the reverse as well : elders complaining their youth is too pious, too restrained, or won't touch alcohol (popular in the late Roman empire). Moreover you can also find large populations moving from atheism/disbelief to religion.
-- Socrates