Start-up NY(startup.ny.gov)
startup.ny.gov
Start-up NY
http://startup.ny.gov/
24 comments
Agree. It sounds wonderful on the outside, but once you start reading all the details it gets a little hairy. For example, they do not define what exactly a "business services company" is and is not. Using a broad definition, that could eliminate some tech startups right out the gate. Another example of the broad definition is "financial services firm". Does that immediately eliminate BitCoin or payment processing startups? The list goes on.
I like the idea and more states/cities should follow the lead, but in order to be effective the people implementing these programs need to be clear on what is and is not an acceptable business. The other part of the NY program I was hesitant about was that you are committed to partnering with a university. Doesn't leave room if your business plan pivots and falls out of line with the "interests of the hosting university".
I like the idea and more states/cities should follow the lead, but in order to be effective the people implementing these programs need to be clear on what is and is not an acceptable business. The other part of the NY program I was hesitant about was that you are committed to partnering with a university. Doesn't leave room if your business plan pivots and falls out of line with the "interests of the hosting university".
It's a startup incubator for startups that have lawyers on staff.
Strange. I wonder if it's politics. There's a great idea for pushing tech, but then the anti-banking lobby kicks in, as does everyone else that's anti-business.
Unclear if this got watered down while Bloomberg was in town, or if it's part of Deblassio's class warfare.
Unclear if this got watered down while Bloomberg was in town, or if it's part of Deblassio's class warfare.
This was started during Bloomberg's term. The same provisions were there.
This is a New York State program, Bloomberg was mayor of New York City.
Was it this watered down when the program began? If so, I start to wonder, "Why bother?"
I get the objections... You don't want to incent people who are already here. It still seems like a lot of hoops.
I get the objections... You don't want to incent people who are already here. It still seems like a lot of hoops.
This is the first year (roughly) of the program. They (NY State) announced it last year. Many of us in NYC looked at it and were like: "ok, well, no use to us". The thing with NY State programs is that they're almost entirely geared to helping politicians north of I-84. While the NYC region has the bulk of the population, it doesn't control the legislature (so when people complain about NYC's taxes, keep in mind that the state controls the tax structure, NYC has minimal control over revenue).
NYC's programs for startup businesses (digital and otherwise) have been more oriented to eliminating red tape, some real estate help. Lately there's an extremely underhyped effort to get fiber to offices, but the requirements are such that you'd need to be well along in your business to take advantage of it.
NYC's programs for startup businesses (digital and otherwise) have been more oriented to eliminating red tape, some real estate help. Lately there's an extremely underhyped effort to get fiber to offices, but the requirements are such that you'd need to be well along in your business to take advantage of it.
This is typical of government-run or funded programs. The problem is that the word "startup" doesn't have a universally agreed upon definition and different people have radically different understanding of what a "startup" is.
When a governemnt official talks about "startups" (which they typically spell "start-ups" with an hyphen), they almost always mean "recently-created small business". And they generally think that the primary focus of a "start-up" is to generate a profit by selling a product or a service and to hire employees as soon as they can. I.e. when they say "start-up", what they really mean is: "traditional small business".
When people in the tech startup world talk about "startups", they generally mean something very different. PG's definition of a startup [1] is probably what best matches what most people in the startup world mean by "startup". And that's radically different from a traditional small business.
It's not to say that tech startups are better or worse than traditional small businesses. They're simply different, they work in very different ways, have very different life cycles, needs and purposes and need very different kinds of support.
Unfortunately, few government people understand the difference between a small businesses and a tech startups. In fact, very few people in general even know there is a difference. Tech startups are a very weird kind of business that most people, even in the business world, don't really get. Which always leads to this confusion.
Governments launch these support programs aimed at "start-ups", which are in fact aimed at traditional small businesses. Tech startup people get confused by the use of the word "start-up" and assume that these programs are aimed at tech startups.
Tech startup people then complain about the non-sensical requirements of these programs, poor advice given to entrepreneurs and completely inadequate support provided. Which was to be expected since, despite their name, these programs aren't aimed at tech startups at all.
[1] http://www.paulgraham.com/growth.html
When a governemnt official talks about "startups" (which they typically spell "start-ups" with an hyphen), they almost always mean "recently-created small business". And they generally think that the primary focus of a "start-up" is to generate a profit by selling a product or a service and to hire employees as soon as they can. I.e. when they say "start-up", what they really mean is: "traditional small business".
When people in the tech startup world talk about "startups", they generally mean something very different. PG's definition of a startup [1] is probably what best matches what most people in the startup world mean by "startup". And that's radically different from a traditional small business.
It's not to say that tech startups are better or worse than traditional small businesses. They're simply different, they work in very different ways, have very different life cycles, needs and purposes and need very different kinds of support.
Unfortunately, few government people understand the difference between a small businesses and a tech startups. In fact, very few people in general even know there is a difference. Tech startups are a very weird kind of business that most people, even in the business world, don't really get. Which always leads to this confusion.
Governments launch these support programs aimed at "start-ups", which are in fact aimed at traditional small businesses. Tech startup people get confused by the use of the word "start-up" and assume that these programs are aimed at tech startups.
Tech startup people then complain about the non-sensical requirements of these programs, poor advice given to entrepreneurs and completely inadequate support provided. Which was to be expected since, despite their name, these programs aren't aimed at tech startups at all.
[1] http://www.paulgraham.com/growth.html
Yea the college campus/alignment requirement is tough, but the "be able to create jobs in the first year" excludes many tech startups. Many won't need a non-founder employee for several years.
I read this as targeted as university spinoffs, in which case it would align better. If you're at the stage where you don't yet need a non-founder employee, you just... don't spin off yet. You can stay in academia, staffed by academic staff, and it's not an issue. But when you reach the stage where you want to grow outside academia, then you spin off a company, and hire non-academic staff, presumably through this structure.
> Start ups must locate on college campuses. (Renting unused office space or vacant land.)
Only startups locate on college campus? Not home-based startup? Could a bunch of startup just rent a table or even a mailbox qualify "space rental"? What about a startup gets a day for one desk?
I also not sure why it has to be on campus. I go to City College and some professors are still waiting for a room. The college has spent a few years splitting half of the floor into multiple small offices and classrooms. I don't know about Columbia or NYU though. Also consider friction between the host university and the startup. School campus network usually has some restrictions as to what is allowed and what is not, who is freely to enter the campus and who is not. It can be tough to work with university officials.
I think it should extend to any startup willing to make the economy better, anywhere in NY. Looks like the governor wants to clone Stanford's startup culture.
Only startups locate on college campus? Not home-based startup? Could a bunch of startup just rent a table or even a mailbox qualify "space rental"? What about a startup gets a day for one desk?
I also not sure why it has to be on campus. I go to City College and some professors are still waiting for a room. The college has spent a few years splitting half of the floor into multiple small offices and classrooms. I don't know about Columbia or NYU though. Also consider friction between the host university and the startup. School campus network usually has some restrictions as to what is allowed and what is not, who is freely to enter the campus and who is not. It can be tough to work with university officials.
I think it should extend to any startup willing to make the economy better, anywhere in NY. Looks like the governor wants to clone Stanford's startup culture.
No college in NYC has any space available for anything. Try to get a room to hold a meetup--it's tough. By process of elimination, this is aimed at startups in the college-run incubators/startup spaces. As such, this doesn't sound like something done to benefit citizens, more like something done to benefit universities.
One exception may be the new Cornell NYC Tech campus on Roosevelt Island, once it's ready. It explicitly mixes academic space and corporate office space. More details in this NY Times article:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/22/nyregion/cornell-nyc-tech-...
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/22/nyregion/cornell-nyc-tech-...
It looks like it is designed to look like a major initiative, but with thr specific constraints written to only admit a few hand-picker winners who are friends of the sponsors. Like many government contracts that pretend to be open for bidding.
Serious question. So what startups would NOT qualify? AirBnB (Hospitality)? SnapTerms (law firm)? Bench.co (accountants)? Opternative (medical office/online eye exams)? Redfin (real estate brokers)? Amazon (retailer)?
"business services company" also seems to exclude just about any SAAS-startup.
The fine print only applies to contracts. Requests like this, job applications - basically all cattle calls - people will call them like they see them. They're painting a picture of what they want as well as they can.
As a Syracuse, NY native and a current resident of NYC, I hereby welcome a flood of new business to the state. Come one, come all.
Just pay no attention to the fact that you're taxed to oblivion in every other possible way - state income tax, sales tax, property taxes, NYC residential tax - I think we've even got taxes for your taxes somewhere in the back - hopefully by the time you finish your 10th year as a successful, profitable, un-taxed business, you'll be making so much gosh darn money that you won't even notice your business finally being taxed into oblivion too.
Dreams really do come true.
Just pay no attention to the fact that you're taxed to oblivion in every other possible way - state income tax, sales tax, property taxes, NYC residential tax - I think we've even got taxes for your taxes somewhere in the back - hopefully by the time you finish your 10th year as a successful, profitable, un-taxed business, you'll be making so much gosh darn money that you won't even notice your business finally being taxed into oblivion too.
Dreams really do come true.
I recently heard that The Beatles paid a 95% income tax.
That seems pretty crazy to us today, but maybe back then they would wonder how we could have the < 40% taxes we have now and properly maintain the roads and bridges and various societal institutions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxman
That seems pretty crazy to us today, but maybe back then they would wonder how we could have the < 40% taxes we have now and properly maintain the roads and bridges and various societal institutions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxman
"One for you nineteen for me"
Haha. You got that right. I'm sure the taxes are somehow deferred in the fine print after the 10 years too.
I had filled out their form and asked to be contacted about 6 months ago and haven't heard anything back. Talking to some accelerator people, it seems to be pretty common. Even using their network the accelerator was unable to get useful information about how to use this program. I think while it makes great headlines it might be 3-4 years till they figure out the policies and requirements around this.
If it takes 3-4 years, I don't see it happening at all. It requires a mayor to make it a priority.
It is a state program.
[deleted]
Ok, so you want to take advantage of this in NYC?
http://startup.ny.gov/properties/new-york-city-properties/
There are a 3 results, all biotech / science in nature. Click on one of em:
THIS PROPERTY HAS NOT YET BEEN DESIGNATED AS A TAX-FREE NY AREA
That's probably a deal-killer for startups wanting to move to manhattan and be tax free for 10 years.
http://startup.ny.gov/properties/new-york-city-properties/
There are a 3 results, all biotech / science in nature. Click on one of em:
THIS PROPERTY HAS NOT YET BEEN DESIGNATED AS A TAX-FREE NY AREA
That's probably a deal-killer for startups wanting to move to manhattan and be tax free for 10 years.
Because the program is designed for upstate NY, whose economy consists of Rust Belt remnants, college towns, and Greek yogurt.
Pretty sure that's "Greek-style yogurt", unless Greece has has annexed Albany!
"Eligible businesses must not locate in an area in which they would compete with existing local businesses."
Tax free zones have proven to be highly effective. In Dubai there were a number of tax free zones started 13+ years ago just before their economic boom. India's rise to dominance in several service sectors was accompanied by a number of tax incentives.
I'd bet money that this attracts new business to New York especially since New York has people talent in place. Also, if you're competing against a NY firm, they'll have an advantage in their ability to accumulate earnings at a faster rate than an equivalent firm that's burdened with more taxes. Too bad NY can't wave Federal taxes...that would be nice.
I'd bet money that this attracts new business to New York especially since New York has people talent in place. Also, if you're competing against a NY firm, they'll have an advantage in their ability to accumulate earnings at a faster rate than an equivalent firm that's burdened with more taxes. Too bad NY can't wave Federal taxes...that would be nice.
Dubai has tax-free zones but also put a bunch of money into certain industries.
Also given the way you talk about taxes it doesn't seem you understand what taxes pay for. Like the roads that startups need to drive on.
Also given the way you talk about taxes it doesn't seem you understand what taxes pay for. Like the roads that startups need to drive on.
>Also given the way you talk about taxes it doesn't seem you understand what taxes pay for.
I would say the same to you. Roads are usually paid for by vehicle registration fees, gas taxes, etc. Pick a better example.
I would say the same to you. Roads are usually paid for by vehicle registration fees, gas taxes, etc. Pick a better example.
Gas Taxes are increasingly having trouble paying for roads. I think roads are normally paid for by property taxes.
There isn't a direct relationship between a specific tax and where the tax is spent.
Are there any other states doing this? Or municipalities?
In Panama (the country), they do something like this in an area on the former US military base called "Ciudad del Saber" (City of knowledge)[1], whereby the companies based their get 0 taxation on imports/exports, salaries, and some other stuff.
Could this be accomplished by designating areas free trade zones? Here in Miami there are a few free trade zones, but I'm not super clear on their function (mostly see cargo coming in and out of there).
[1]http://ciudaddelsaber.org/en
In Panama (the country), they do something like this in an area on the former US military base called "Ciudad del Saber" (City of knowledge)[1], whereby the companies based their get 0 taxation on imports/exports, salaries, and some other stuff.
Could this be accomplished by designating areas free trade zones? Here in Miami there are a few free trade zones, but I'm not super clear on their function (mostly see cargo coming in and out of there).
[1]http://ciudaddelsaber.org/en
I've been seeing ads for this on tv here in southern California. Seems really intriguing.
I'm curious if there are any long-term commitments? Can you redomicile 9 1/2 years in, etc?
I'm curious if there are any long-term commitments? Can you redomicile 9 1/2 years in, etc?
I found it funny that their current ad, "Don't Back Down",
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuXBcbYvKU8
uses an animation at 0:08 clearly from the STAR experiment at Brookhaven National Laboratory http://www.bnl.gov/rhic/star.asp which is run by Department of Energy (federal) funding and has nothing at all to do with startup technology, or New York taxes for that matter. The facility does happen to be located on Long Island.
A high-energy nuclear physics experiment focused around a mile-wide particle accelerator is so opposite to what startups aim to accomplish (minimum viable products, small teams, bootstrapping, becoming profitable fast) that the reference is nothing but humorous to me.
Perhaps the implication is that there are very smart scientists in the NY area that one can poach off to work at startups as federal funding for high energy physics research declines. :-(
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuXBcbYvKU8
uses an animation at 0:08 clearly from the STAR experiment at Brookhaven National Laboratory http://www.bnl.gov/rhic/star.asp which is run by Department of Energy (federal) funding and has nothing at all to do with startup technology, or New York taxes for that matter. The facility does happen to be located on Long Island.
A high-energy nuclear physics experiment focused around a mile-wide particle accelerator is so opposite to what startups aim to accomplish (minimum viable products, small teams, bootstrapping, becoming profitable fast) that the reference is nothing but humorous to me.
Perhaps the implication is that there are very smart scientists in the NY area that one can poach off to work at startups as federal funding for high energy physics research declines. :-(
NY has recently taken up arms to make itself a more attractive destination for businesses and entrepreneurs. One of the largest strides that has been made aligns with this link, and is a marketing strategy that makes NY seem more startup friendly. It's unclear whether it's being targeted towards tech/software, which recently has become synonymous with the word "startup", or how much substance there is behind the cloak of marketing.
An interesting and relevant read is Paul Graham's essay on recreating Silicon Valley: http://www.paulgraham.com/siliconvalley.html
An interesting and relevant read is Paul Graham's essay on recreating Silicon Valley: http://www.paulgraham.com/siliconvalley.html
Note that this program, by design, almost completely excludes New York City (all five boroughs) and much of Long Island. It's geared primarily to upstate.
Just looking at the language of the website, I can see who this initiative is catering to: Large organizations looking to cash in on startup cachet and gain a significant competitive advantage over real startups.
Because it looks like those are the only ones that can fulfill the requirements.
Crossing NYC off of my list of places to move to when I'm ready to start a company.
Because it looks like those are the only ones that can fulfill the requirements.
Crossing NYC off of my list of places to move to when I'm ready to start a company.
There are no taxes for businesses that start up on the moon, so why don't more businesses start up on the moon?
[deleted]
Every city should do this now, tax free for years (at least 3 but 10 is awesome). No other requirements because there are many other ways to generate revenue from young companies and you want them to succeed, i.e. Free-to-Play business model somewhat.
I got really excited for a moment, then I read the fine print. But, I think is generally a step in the right direction.
How terrible would it be to collect no taxes from startups for the first year, nationally?
How terrible would it be to collect no taxes from startups for the first year, nationally?
Most startups aren't paying significant taxes in the first year, anyways, since there will be no profits.
Correct, and a startup with low profits might benefit in tax exemption early on for long-term success (and potentially avoiding fundraising early on).
They show commercials for this all the time all over NY state. Its incredibly misleading. I looked into it the first time I saw it. Like most things it is indeed to good to be true.
I am international..especially from india,can I open my startup in ny?, Cant seem to find that for international business owners want to start in newyork.
I am an appreneur, we develop mobile apps,would love to open startup in newyork tax free zone. Can I get process for non-us citizen to open startup in new york.
Seems like a great way to widen the size of the city. Startups in the Bronx!
New York State. Not New York City. The program is designed almost entirely to exclude New York City.
To those who warn of the fine print -- what did you expect? Even with those conditions, this looks pretty damn advantageous. Go NY.
-SF Startup Scene Employee
-SF Startup Scene Employee
A Start up...
Start ups must locate on college campuses. (Renting unused office space or vacant land.)
MUST BE NEW to New York State, recently graduated from a state-recognized incubator, be returning to the state, or be an existing business that's starting a new operation.
ORGANIZED as a corporation, partnership, limited liability company or sole proprietorship.
IN COMPLIANCE with worker protection and environmental regulations
ALIGNED with the interests of the hosting university.
BE ABLE to create jobs in the first year.
BE A STARTUP business or in biotechnology, information technology, remanufacturing, advanced materials, processing, engineering, electronic technology products or other high-tech industries.
CANNOT BE AN accountant, business services company, law firm, medical office, hotel, financial services firm, personal care business, Realtor, restaurant, retailer, utility or wholesaler.