This App Trains You to See Farther(popularmechanics.com)

154 pointsby brendanlimvor 12 Jahren72 comments

http://www.popularmechanics.com/_mobile/science/health/med-tech/this-app-trains-you-to-see-farther-16506910

22 comments

staunchvor 12 Jahren

> "When a major league baseball pitcher throws a 95-mph fastball, only about 400 milliseconds—the duration of a blink—pass before the ball rockets over the plate. And a batter gets less than half that time to decide whether to swing, and where. Baseball"

Bah! That's not a knife. This is a knife: twitch FPS gaming. Quake Live at 250 FPS, refreshed at 144hz, with < 5ms RTT latency. Reaction times can be compared in almost individual milliseconds. I'll put the reaction times of the best Quake Live player (rapha/cypher/evil, whoever) against the best baseball player any day.

Interestingly, my vision is extremely good. I've often surprised people with how far I can see clearly. So screw this app: learn how to play a twitch FPS well: http://www.quakelive.com/

cjensenvor 12 Jahren

You would lose the bet :-)

Keep in mind that the ball is coming straight on, and the batter must discern trajectory (rising, falling) and spin (which affects how the ball curves) and velocity quickly enough that you still have time to move the bat.

For example, a fastball and a changeup both drop at the same rate and spin at the same rate. One is coming at 100mph, the other at 75. Since the ball is heading straight for you, you must perceive speed by measuring how quickly the ball is moving through your eye focus.

Worse, you are expected to bat in an intentional direction. Meaning that you have to hit the ball on an precise spot in the sphere with an intentional amount of force. It's not enough to just swing hard. I'd guess the bat has to be in the right location with a time accuracy of less than a millisecond.

The good batters make good money for a reason.

gtanivor 12 Jahren

and oftentimes get TUE (therapeutic use exception) for Ritalin for this reason

http://www.baseballnation.com/2012/6/29/3104332/is-there-an-...

rschmittyvor 12 Jahren

A ball that is going to a predetermined area while you stand still...

Hitting a headshot of another player that can go in any direction / velocity while you yourself are traveling in any direction velocity all _before_ that player kills you can be very challenging and depend on very high skill and reaction times

The amount of money a player makes compared to someone in another sport has no bearing.

[deleted]vor 12 Jahren

singlowvor 12 Jahren

You have both training and selection in both cases. In both cases you have extensive training and in both cases the number of training hours is ridiculous. However, there are negative and positive selection biases for each. Baseball has million dollar contracts as incentive, but also has the negative selection biases associated with the relatively small portion of the world that has baseball training facilities and the added requirements of physical strength that may prevent many with the natural talent from being eligible.

Large salaries are not necessarily enough. If you select the top 100 people in the world for natural talent in reaction times, how many would meet all of the requirements for being a good baseball player?

Baseball players make good money only if they can combine a top 0.01% reaction time with all of the other skills. There may be plenty of people that can top that one aspect but could never compete for those contracts.

babs474vor 12 Jahren

I have heard, and this article makes the case that reaction time for people is relatively constant, but that the pros are better at anticipating pitches. They read body and shoulder movements leading up to the ball release.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/more/news/20130724/the-spor...

adwfvor 12 Jahren

I've heard the exact same thing about olympic fencers.

I also experience this one firsthand every week at my club. Beginner fencers lose so many points because they think all they need to do is hit faster, react quicker. When in actuality, they're just being predictable and setup to lose by clever tactics.

dorfsmayvor 12 Jahren

I usually don't like to neatpick, but please say speed when you mean it. Velocity is a vector, it is a speed and a trajectory. Thanks.

alexqgbvor 12 Jahren

Not to nitpick, but I think you mean nitpick.

fatrachetvor 12 Jahren

This app specifically improves clear vision at farther distances, which seems far more useful on a daily basis, especially since a lot of people don't have good vision. Compared to twitch games that only improve reaction time in a very limited practically applicable scope. Considering the small amounts of time investment necessary to get good results, this app seems much more useful than playing quake.

staunchvor 12 Jahren

The way the app works seems to me to be a subset of what's required to play Quake well, so if it works I'd bet Quake works better. I also think Quake has other benefits (like reaction time training, spatial awareness, etc, etc) but it could have other downsides too.

eruvor 12 Jahren

> [...] but it could have other downsides too.

Like sitting on your ass? (I like Quake, but I wouldn't pretend I play it for anything but fun.)

There's also some research that shows that RTS are the best thing for practicing multitasking and fast decision making under uncertainty.

staunchvor 12 Jahren

Any benefits are purely a side effect for me. I play because I love competitive gaming.

has2k1vor 12 Jahren

A hunch about the benefits of Quake is fine. But, elevating that to a status of belief in such short order seems a little wacky, even if you turn out to be right.

"Onto something" is far from "got something".

staunchvor 12 Jahren

I probably said it that way so I could hear nice arguments about why I'm wrong. Sorry if that's trollish :-)

[deleted]vor 12 Jahren

gcanyonvor 12 Jahren

For anyone wondering about the (bad) ratings in the iOS App Store: I bought this yesterday for an iPad mini.

I think the app must use web-based resources, and their site was slammed yesterday. I could do nothing but give it my name, and then it would go to a black screen and sit there -- no feedback, no activity, for minutes. I was left thinking I had wasted my money.

Today the app loads and runs successfully. The interface is bad. Really bad. Text-overlapping-other-text-and-graphics bad.

The controls are iffy. You're supposed to tap various images but sometimes the taps are off by an inch or more.

Nevertheless, it seemed to do pretty much what it is supposed to. It concluded my first session, congratulated me, and died. I checked and it saved my progress, so there's that.

I'm not totally put out since I got to do the exercises, and it seems plausible that it might help my mediocre vision. I hope the usability, design, and load issues are fixed soon.

eruvor 12 Jahren

Otherwise, someone else will probably clone it better.

crazygringovor 12 Jahren

Ugh, their website doesn't even explain what platforms it works on. Their home page, about page, and FAQ don't mention it at all.

Their purchase page has mysterious Apple and Windows icons, with a message saying "Is Now Available on the iPad".

But is there a Windows version, which the Windows icon would suggest? Or is it Windows Phone? OSX version? Web version? It says "Available on the App Store", but on my iPhone I can't find it.

And if it's only available for iPad, it doesn't even make sense that the site has a purchase page.

http://ultimeyesvision.com/purchase.php

mklvor 12 Jahren

Yes, the website is pretty terrible. An OSX version seems to exist, since they used a Mac Mini in their research. More info I've found:

- video interview with researchers Seitz, Deveau and Ozer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKbbF66cyqI

- short published article on the baseball study: https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(14)...

- lots more technical info about the app and the study (supplemental data to above article): http://download.cell.com/current-biology/mmcs/journals/0960-...

reubenmoraisvor 12 Jahren

There is an OS X version. I'd assume there is also a Windows and an iPad one. I bought it earlier today and did the first session. It was fun. My eyes felt weird for the first few minutes after finishing the session.

piyush_sonivor 12 Jahren

A user on reddit quickly came up with a free Web, Android, Windows exe, and a mac app for this. Hackers of this world, I tell you. :)

http://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/1y9m6w/a_neuroscien...

donuonvor 12 Jahren

Neurobonkers sums it up quite well, "Until I've seen a replication with a randomised, double blind, placebo control group, I for one will be keeping my $5.99 firmly in my wallet."

http://bigthink.com/neurobonkers/the-app-that-trains-you-to-...

cjensenvor 12 Jahren

It's an interesting effect, if it exists.

A researcher charging money for an app based on an effect which he has not finished studying -- no blind study yet -- is a really... odd... thing to do in my opinion. Were it me, I wouldn't charge before the blind study is done.

eruvor 12 Jahren

Why? Charge as soon as you can make money. Minimum viable product and all that.

alissonvor 12 Jahren

This is cool! I being training my eyes using yoga exercises for about 2 months and I can really few the improvements by now. I'll test this app to see if it helps.

Somethings we get in front of a computer too much and your eyes begin to loose the ability to see things farther. It's all about training the muscles.

mhbvor 12 Jahren

What sort of yoga exercises work for your eyes?

alissonvor 12 Jahren

Here's a video of someone teaching them: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRwXuRIR3Co

At 4m10s she shows the one I'm practicing the most now, training to focus. I like to do it one eye at a time, and then both. I don't aways use the thumb, I like to go to a park and do it between trees, when I'm on a bus I do it between the window's borders (because it's not transparent) and things out side.

Blink is very important to, try to remember to blink, so it's always lubricated enough. I tend to blink less when I'm on a computer, it's something I'm trying to work on.

I'll give it a few more months to see how it reflects on the eye doctor exam.

Houshaltervor 12 Jahren

Off topic but I posted this yesterday (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7261606). I didn't think you could repost articles (or at least it hasn't let me do it in the past.)

privongvor 12 Jahren

Your submittion and this one link to different URLs (mobile vs non-mobile site), so to the HN system they're different articles.

privongvor 12 Jahren

s/submittion/submission/ rough day for me, spelling-wise!

irqvor 12 Jahren

Here's a link to the app on the iOS App Store. Seems to be iPad-only at the moment.

https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/ultimeyes/id805408944?mt=8

[deleted]vor 12 Jahren

triberianvor 12 Jahren

Question. Can it be played with lenses on? I found no recommendation for or without!

dorfsmayvor 12 Jahren

Is this an IOS only apps only? Can't find it on android.

beautybasicsvor 12 Jahren

Misleading title. - It trains to respond fastly

mistercowvor 12 Jahren

The article specifically says that it allowed players to read lines further down on the eye chart.

[deleted]vor 12 Jahren

(5)

maxericksonvor 12 Jahren

The article author and also the researcher showed up on reddit:

http://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/1y9m6w/a_neuroscien...

wherkewitzvor 12 Jahren

Hey that's me. I'm new to Ycombinator but I'll answer questions here too!

hrkristianvor 12 Jahren

Welcome!

When might we be so lucky as to see an Android or Linux version? or better yet, a platform agnostic web based app?

13throwawayvor 12 Jahren

Open source javascript clone. https://rawgithub.com/Fordi/eyegame/master/eyes.html

mklvor 12 Jahren

This is neat. Some issues I spotted: spot-0.png doesn't seem to be a Gabor stimulus pattern (see http://www.cogsci.nl/software/online-gabor-patch-generator), the "press F11" and "Click to begin" messages don't go away (and sometimes going fullscreen is impossible/undesirable anyway).

For people wanting to look at the code it's at https://github.com/Fordi/eyegame

Also, what's the license?

devindotcomvor 12 Jahren

Heh, nice. Just a little feedback - I can select all purposely or by accident and it highlights the dots. Also, in FF on Win 7, the 'press f11' prompt won't go away. Thanks for the opportunity to get an idea of what this is about, though.

ghayesvor 12 Jahren

My screen is too dirty to be able to play. :(

kyberiasvor 12 Jahren

Thanks! This motivated me to clean my monitor.

stangeekvor 12 Jahren

Thanks for this! The code is a joy to read through, this is really well crafted javascript.

ShardPhoenixvor 12 Jahren

This seems more like a test of mouse movement speed than vision. Probably depends heavily on monitor calibration though.

eliasmacphersonvor 12 Jahren

what are the instructions?

piyush_sonivor 12 Jahren

I pressed F11 to go to full screen. The message didn't change. Anyway, I saw a circle pointer and spots on the screen so I started clicking them one by one and they got 'cleaned'. Finally, I removed all the spots that I could see. Nothing happened after that. No message.

plaguuuuuuvor 12 Jahren

that was fast.

I was going to do it myself but ~24 hours later here we are :P

thank you internets!

TheSOB888vor 12 Jahren

Eyes feel blurry after playing this game. Uncomfortable. Want to go to bed.

oakwhizvor 12 Jahren

The image that they show reminds me of the way that the 2D discrete cosine transform works.

http://openi.nlm.nih.gov/imgs/512/312/2680596/2680596_pone.0...

It looks similar to this:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/Dctjpeg....

mistercowvor 12 Jahren

It's called a "Gabor patch", and it's constructed by multiplying a 1D sine wave by a 2D gaussian window (it's the sine wave that's reminding you of the basis functions of the 2D DCT).

You'll see these all over the place if you read studies about vision. The (highly oversimplified) reason is that if you imagine the edge-detection processes of a mammalian brain as a set of filters, the impulse response of one of those filters would be a Gabor patch.

This is related to why the DCT is so effective for vision applications, although perhaps less significantly than you might imagine just by looking at the patterns.

TTProgramsvor 12 Jahren

Even more closely related would be a wavelet transform with windowed sine packet wavelets.

eruvor 12 Jahren

Reminds me of the game Frequon Invaders. (https://duckduckgo.com/?q=!i+frequon+invaders)

babuskovvor 12 Jahren

DuckDuckGo link that redirects to Google. What's the point?

eruvor 12 Jahren

Easier to read than the Google link.

devindotcomvor 12 Jahren

This kind of reminds of playing Tribes in the early days. I was a sniper and would hang out in the mountains, monitoring miles of terrain and waiting for the slightest pixel of movement so I could zoom in to the max and nail it with the laser gun. That game definitely improved my visual responsivity and awareness, if not my actual acuity.

NDizzlevor 12 Jahren

Yep. My time spent playing Delta Force 1 paid off in Tribes. (More so in Tribes 2 - too bad nobody played that one!)

cawvor 12 Jahren

There's another app called "GlassesOff" that seems to do the same thing.

ericxbvor 12 Jahren

GlassesOff is used to improve near vision.

kyberiasvor 12 Jahren

I find it slightly irritating and frustrating that there's a patent pending and there isn't even a demo available.

MaysonLvor 12 Jahren

On the app store: 11 5 star, 2 4 star, 5 3 star, 1 2 star, aaaaand 173 1 start ratings. Seems like possibly a server-overload problem.