Ask HN: One month into dev job and I'm recruited for one with twice the salary
40 comments
A couple things:
The salary quoted by the recruiter is "up to". That figure was created when the recruiter asked the company how much they would potentially pay, max, and the CEO answered "well, up to $150k, if it's a really senior guy, like the inventor of jQuery or something". They won't give that sum to a junior guy like you. The recruiter quoted that amount just to lure you in.
Also, it's not an offer, it's a recruiter trying to get bodies into the door of that company. It's similar to you finding the same job ad on craigslist, except that the latter would have a better chance to get you hired, because there's no recruiter involved that has to be paid out.
I was in a similar situation, went to the interview, never heard from the company again, probably because I was too expensive (even though my demanded salary was less than the "up to" sum quoted by the recruiter.
The salary quoted by the recruiter is "up to". That figure was created when the recruiter asked the company how much they would potentially pay, max, and the CEO answered "well, up to $150k, if it's a really senior guy, like the inventor of jQuery or something". They won't give that sum to a junior guy like you. The recruiter quoted that amount just to lure you in.
Also, it's not an offer, it's a recruiter trying to get bodies into the door of that company. It's similar to you finding the same job ad on craigslist, except that the latter would have a better chance to get you hired, because there's no recruiter involved that has to be paid out.
I was in a similar situation, went to the interview, never heard from the company again, probably because I was too expensive (even though my demanded salary was less than the "up to" sum quoted by the recruiter.
One additional thing to consider: Very short stays at a company are a red flag on your resume. Sure, you can probably do it once, at the start of your career, for double the money. But don't do it regularly, or it will hurt your employability.
"I'd feel like a giant douchebag": Others have said that you don't need to feel that way about it. They're right. But if you're still going to feel that way, then don't do it. You've got to live with yourself, and the money isn't worth it at that price.
"I'd feel like a giant douchebag": Others have said that you don't need to feel that way about it. They're right. But if you're still going to feel that way, then don't do it. You've got to live with yourself, and the money isn't worth it at that price.
It probably doesn't hurt to talk to the other company and see what's what. At the very least you'll make some contacts going forward. I would only negotiate with your current employer if your willing to leave if they so no. If they are willing to pay to keep you that shows they won't be looking to fire you since they would just let you go if they didn't want to keep you. If they don't counter or play games like counter less, leave because they are willing to gamble with replacing you.
You should also consider the stability of the job. Double the money this year isn't worth much if they go out of business, and you have to spend another year looking for a job. I would personally stick with a more stable job for less money every time, but you should decide which you value more.
Before leaving, I'd give my current company a chance to match the recruiter's offer. Since that is your current market value, they might prefer to just give you that raise instead of searching for another cheaper guy (who might very well repeat what you did).
I think that if your current employer tries to make you feel bad about taking a job taking twice as much money THEY are the douchebags, not you.
Come on.. You aren't a douchebag for jumping to another job with double the salary. :) No one would think twice about that.
Go to interview, get the offer, get back and have current company beat it.
Rinse and repeat.
The winner wins an excellent developer.
Rinse and repeat.
The winner wins an excellent developer.
No brainer take the interview.
If you're very early in your career, you probably haven't learned that most companies are very disloyal even to people that show them extreme loyalty. You owe an employer nothing other than giving 100% of your effort for your time there. Unless there is something about this current job that you really, really love, it would be (IMO) pretty foolish to turn down double the salary. I would at least interview with them and see if they are serious about it.
> "it would be (IMO) pretty foolish to turn down double the salary"
Why is that? Is life always better with more money?
If the OP is happy with the amount of money he is already making, why should he look for ever-higher salaries?
Why is that? Is life always better with more money?
If the OP is happy with the amount of money he is already making, why should he look for ever-higher salaries?
> Is life always better with more money?
More money can buy you more security (unexpected medical bills...), free time (why not take 6 months off to travel?), and opportunity (I'm gona fund my own startup!) that OP might not be considering at the moment. With the future being uncertain, and all other things being equal between the jobs, it would be silly not to take the money.
Worst case, you shove it in a savings account/index fund and never think about it again.
More money can buy you more security (unexpected medical bills...), free time (why not take 6 months off to travel?), and opportunity (I'm gona fund my own startup!) that OP might not be considering at the moment. With the future being uncertain, and all other things being equal between the jobs, it would be silly not to take the money.
Worst case, you shove it in a savings account/index fund and never think about it again.
The implication of my post was that if there was something about his current job that made him really, really happy, he didn't necessarily have to even look at the other job.
Getting a modest raise frequently happens, but doubling your salary in one career jump is pretty rare. Doubling a salary is too big of an increase to ignore for most people.
Getting a modest raise frequently happens, but doubling your salary in one career jump is pretty rare. Doubling a salary is too big of an increase to ignore for most people.
I'm anxious to work full-time on a startup (currently doing 2 hours every morning on the side)
Longer runway.
Longer runway.
Doesn't sound like he's looking, sounds like the better-paying job found him/her.
> You owe an employer nothing other than giving 100% of your effort for your time there
I disagree. You don't owe your employer anything.
I disagree. You don't owe your employer anything.
If you don't owe your employer anything, why should he give you any money?
Because he's betting on your productivity. You can choose to make that bet true if you want, but you don't 'owe' it.
You at least owe them to make a good faith effort to be productive. That's what the money is for.
The law disagrees. So does society. So in what imaginary world does that statement hold true?
I don't think anyone here can answer that question but you. I can sympathize though, as I am in a similar boat, although not as quick of a turnaround. I too hate switching jobs, it feels like a betrayal.
However, you should look out for yourself most of all. Does the extra income matter that much for you? Is it good for your career? What are the pros & cons of this new potential employer (commute, line of business, work environment, etc.)?
It's a difficult question, but one you have to come to terms with.
However, you should look out for yourself most of all. Does the extra income matter that much for you? Is it good for your career? What are the pros & cons of this new potential employer (commute, line of business, work environment, etc.)?
It's a difficult question, but one you have to come to terms with.
The recruiter is right, it can't hurt to interview. Find out more about the company, find out if you think it would be a good fit for what you're looking for.
If they offer you the job, you've got three options. 1) take it and leave your current employer 2) keep your current job and pretend you never interviewed 3) (if you still are unsure about leaving) tell your current employer about the offer you've been made (you may not be allowed to give details, but you can give enough) and see if they counter offer.
Then, you can make an informed decision.
I think (and hope) you'll find your current employer very accommodating. If another start-up is offering you double the salary, your current employer should know they are getting a heck of a deal with you. They also likely know that 'deal' wouldn't last forever.
Or maybe they won't want to offer you more, and just expect you to stick with them for other reasons. Who knows, but you'll never find out unless you dip a foot in to test the temperature.
I hadn't done this before last year, and I have to admit, it does feel strange talking to a potential new employer while somebody else is currently employing you, but this is the new nature of the game. Your current employer (likely) doesn't expect you to stick around forever. Doesn't mean they don't care about you, they just know the reality.
If they offer you the job, you've got three options. 1) take it and leave your current employer 2) keep your current job and pretend you never interviewed 3) (if you still are unsure about leaving) tell your current employer about the offer you've been made (you may not be allowed to give details, but you can give enough) and see if they counter offer.
Then, you can make an informed decision.
I think (and hope) you'll find your current employer very accommodating. If another start-up is offering you double the salary, your current employer should know they are getting a heck of a deal with you. They also likely know that 'deal' wouldn't last forever.
Or maybe they won't want to offer you more, and just expect you to stick with them for other reasons. Who knows, but you'll never find out unless you dip a foot in to test the temperature.
I hadn't done this before last year, and I have to admit, it does feel strange talking to a potential new employer while somebody else is currently employing you, but this is the new nature of the game. Your current employer (likely) doesn't expect you to stick around forever. Doesn't mean they don't care about you, they just know the reality.
> (if you still are unsure about leaving) tell your current employer about the offer you've been made (you may not be allowed to give details, but you can give enough) and see if they counter offer.
Don't ever do this.
Leave or don't. If I'm your manager, the moment you expect me to counteroffer I'm planning on getting rid of you.
No offense, but you just told me, "Hey, I'm shopping around."
No offense, but that means, as a manager, I'd better start shopping around, too.
And, you want to leave a company on your own schedule rather than the company's schedule.
Don't ever do this.
Leave or don't. If I'm your manager, the moment you expect me to counteroffer I'm planning on getting rid of you.
No offense, but you just told me, "Hey, I'm shopping around."
No offense, but that means, as a manager, I'd better start shopping around, too.
And, you want to leave a company on your own schedule rather than the company's schedule.
May I share with you two pieces advice my father gave that I take with me everywhere:
- Never say no - always negotiate.
- If you don't ask, the answer is no.
The reaction you shared is not particularly business savvy. Business relationships (contrary to lots of shitty analogies out there) are not like a friendship/romance.
>Leave or don't. If I'm your manager, the moment you expect me to counteroffer I'm planning on getting rid of you.
Why? What possible rational reason is this your reaction?
> No offense, but you just told me, "Hey, I'm shopping around."
Yes, they did. You just received an extra piece of information to use as a manager. Maybe this requires a re-evaluation of the current situation?
> No offense, but that means, as a manager, I'd better start shopping around, too.
Maybe or maybe not. That is one of the possible outcomes. But, it is not the only one. This is called 'jumping to conclusions'. Always negotiate. If you don't even think to ask, "is there anything that would make this person stay" then the answer is no.
> And, you want to leave a company on your own schedule rather than the company's schedule.
Of course. What wouldn't they?
- Never say no - always negotiate.
- If you don't ask, the answer is no.
The reaction you shared is not particularly business savvy. Business relationships (contrary to lots of shitty analogies out there) are not like a friendship/romance.
>Leave or don't. If I'm your manager, the moment you expect me to counteroffer I'm planning on getting rid of you.
Why? What possible rational reason is this your reaction?
> No offense, but you just told me, "Hey, I'm shopping around."
Yes, they did. You just received an extra piece of information to use as a manager. Maybe this requires a re-evaluation of the current situation?
> No offense, but that means, as a manager, I'd better start shopping around, too.
Maybe or maybe not. That is one of the possible outcomes. But, it is not the only one. This is called 'jumping to conclusions'. Always negotiate. If you don't even think to ask, "is there anything that would make this person stay" then the answer is no.
> And, you want to leave a company on your own schedule rather than the company's schedule.
Of course. What wouldn't they?
And I might add that double the salary is a good reason to re-negotiate. You're not jumping for 5-10K, which may be reason not to negotiate ("Hey, he's jumping at the drop of a hat, if I keep him he'll jump at the next offer"), but when you're looking at a severe discrepancy in valuing an employee, it's worth the discussion. For most people a 2x salary is something you can't put down, even if you absolutely love your job. I think most people would understand and if you have a good transition plan you won't burn any bridges.
The counter may or may not be the full 2x. They may counter lower and try to keep some fuzzy items like "You know what it's like here, you enjoy your job", etc.
The counter may involve more responsibility. Why is company Y valuing you at double? Do they expect you to take on different responsibilities? That's definitely going to be a factor in the discussion.
The counter may or may not be the full 2x. They may counter lower and try to keep some fuzzy items like "You know what it's like here, you enjoy your job", etc.
The counter may involve more responsibility. Why is company Y valuing you at double? Do they expect you to take on different responsibilities? That's definitely going to be a factor in the discussion.
> The reaction you shared is not particularly business savvy. Business relationships (contrary to lots of shitty analogies out there) are not like a friendship/romance.
Rational reason? As a manager, I have deadlines to make, planning to carry out and crises to solve. You just added yourself to to my upcoming crisis list and impacted all three of those areas--especially if you are a star performer.
Ask for a raise? Sure, we can talk about it. Unhappy? Let's figure out how to fix that.
However, people are creatures of inertia. Once you've broken that inertia to the point that you have another job offer, let's be honest, there's probably too much that requires fixing in order to make you stay and make you happy.
And, you are also not considering the impact of this on the other 10+ people I'm managing. I don't want them to necessarily start interviewing to possibly get a raise even if I'm the better employer/job. Yeah, they may find that out, but it's a distraction, the grass is greener, etc. Or there may be a temporary bump while some competitor's group staffs up, but then there will be a corresponding layoff (seen it)--oh, gee, thanks, now all my salaries are up even after your group cratered. I was a junior employee when that happened and the group rehired some of those people (whom we desperately needed)--at a 20% salary cut--that was a management failure for the history books-- but it was a good lesson to a junior employee about understanding your negotiating position downside.
All told, if a good employee presents me with a competitor's offer I'm 99% certain to say, "Sorry to see you go. I'll give you a good reference." I don't take it personally as I've left jobs for better salaries. That's the nature of the game nowadays.
Now, I will admit that a salary jump of 2x is unusual although I have been in that position. If that happens, the manager or the company have failed dramatically (in my instance it was both). Or, someone else really needs that employee (that was also the case for me). Either way, the employee should take the new job.
Rational reason? As a manager, I have deadlines to make, planning to carry out and crises to solve. You just added yourself to to my upcoming crisis list and impacted all three of those areas--especially if you are a star performer.
Ask for a raise? Sure, we can talk about it. Unhappy? Let's figure out how to fix that.
However, people are creatures of inertia. Once you've broken that inertia to the point that you have another job offer, let's be honest, there's probably too much that requires fixing in order to make you stay and make you happy.
And, you are also not considering the impact of this on the other 10+ people I'm managing. I don't want them to necessarily start interviewing to possibly get a raise even if I'm the better employer/job. Yeah, they may find that out, but it's a distraction, the grass is greener, etc. Or there may be a temporary bump while some competitor's group staffs up, but then there will be a corresponding layoff (seen it)--oh, gee, thanks, now all my salaries are up even after your group cratered. I was a junior employee when that happened and the group rehired some of those people (whom we desperately needed)--at a 20% salary cut--that was a management failure for the history books-- but it was a good lesson to a junior employee about understanding your negotiating position downside.
All told, if a good employee presents me with a competitor's offer I'm 99% certain to say, "Sorry to see you go. I'll give you a good reference." I don't take it personally as I've left jobs for better salaries. That's the nature of the game nowadays.
Now, I will admit that a salary jump of 2x is unusual although I have been in that position. If that happens, the manager or the company have failed dramatically (in my instance it was both). Or, someone else really needs that employee (that was also the case for me). Either way, the employee should take the new job.
Most managers do not view "I am looking elsewhere" as a time of negotiation unless it is a highly valued employee. Even then it is wise for the manager to start looking around too because the likelihood of the employee leaving is high. However if the employee asks for a raise rather than saying "I have another offer", then it is a negotiation. Because the manager also knows that if the employee does not receive a raise, then he or she will likely become unhappy and leave.
I agree with your general premise that most things are a negotiable. However it also depends on the situation and how the employee and employer approach the situation. "I got another offer so you should match it." is not a good way to approach a negotiation unless you are a star employee.
I agree with your general premise that most things are a negotiable. However it also depends on the situation and how the employee and employer approach the situation. "I got another offer so you should match it." is not a good way to approach a negotiation unless you are a star employee.
I agree with everything you said except for the third option:
> tell your current employer about the offer you've been made ... and see if they counter offer.
That seems like it would come off as worse than taking the new job. If I was OP's current company I'd see that as 'not only did you shop around first couple weeks here, but you're now rubbing it in our faces and expecting us to reward you.'
> tell your current employer about the offer you've been made ... and see if they counter offer.
That seems like it would come off as worse than taking the new job. If I was OP's current company I'd see that as 'not only did you shop around first couple weeks here, but you're now rubbing it in our faces and expecting us to reward you.'
I think it could possibly be handled better than that. I'd suggest that if the OP decides they would like to stay at the current employer, but only if the current employer offers what the employee feels they are worth (or if the employee wants more than they are currently getting), they could very politely say
"Listen, I really like working here, I like that you guys do x,y,z, that I have the option to learn from/about/with.. whatever, but I've just had a great offer from Acme company, and I was going to take it, but wanted to talk to you guys about it before I accept."
That way the company understands why the person is leaving, that they haven't agreed to leave yet, it is in the employers hands to keep the employee if they want to.
We have a fairly small industry (and even if we didn't) you're going to be running into the same people again and again though your career. Neither side should be hurt in this. It's a business proposition. Friendships don't have to end, cooperation doesn't even have to end. MAKE SURE YOU ARE NOT LEAVING YOUR CURRENT EMPLOYER IN THE LURCH. Give them time for you to clean-up what you're working on and get it in a good state, etc. etc.
As long as you're professional (and the OP's original posts suggests he is professional and courteous), the current employer shouldn't take it as anything but.
"Listen, I really like working here, I like that you guys do x,y,z, that I have the option to learn from/about/with.. whatever, but I've just had a great offer from Acme company, and I was going to take it, but wanted to talk to you guys about it before I accept."
That way the company understands why the person is leaving, that they haven't agreed to leave yet, it is in the employers hands to keep the employee if they want to.
We have a fairly small industry (and even if we didn't) you're going to be running into the same people again and again though your career. Neither side should be hurt in this. It's a business proposition. Friendships don't have to end, cooperation doesn't even have to end. MAKE SURE YOU ARE NOT LEAVING YOUR CURRENT EMPLOYER IN THE LURCH. Give them time for you to clean-up what you're working on and get it in a good state, etc. etc.
As long as you're professional (and the OP's original posts suggests he is professional and courteous), the current employer shouldn't take it as anything but.
Agree with other replies: there are ways to approach this that will cause friction, and ways that might not ("I wasn't looking, but this came along, now I have a tough decision...").
And no matter what your approach, some bosses will take it one way, others another way! And that's OK, do what's right for you, don't make your choice based on whether you get a cold reception or not.
And no matter what your approach, some bosses will take it one way, others another way! And that's OK, do what's right for you, don't make your choice based on whether you get a cold reception or not.
Well, if I was the employer, i'd like my employees to come to me and tell me that they have better offers and discuss possible course of action BEFORE accepting any offers, rather than just accept the job and leave. This way if I want to make a counter offer, it gives me a chance to do it, otherwise I might admit I can't match the offer and wish him best of luck, no hard feelings.
I disagree - it gives your current employer the chance to retain you, assuming that you are on great terms with that employer and you really like the job.
It's just business. Everyone knows that the quality employees almost always already have jobs - chances are good that your company also will poach candidates similarly.
It's just business. Everyone knows that the quality employees almost always already have jobs - chances are good that your company also will poach candidates similarly.
Agree with all the comments so far. Take the interview, build great relationships with the people that you are interviewing with.
The good news is that you've only been on the job for a month, so if you do take the new job you won't look like a job hopper considering you won't even list this as a job.
As everyone said. Look out after yourself first and foremost. Don't burn any bridges with current employer either if you do decide to move on.
The good news is that you've only been on the job for a month, so if you do take the new job you won't look like a job hopper considering you won't even list this as a job.
As everyone said. Look out after yourself first and foremost. Don't burn any bridges with current employer either if you do decide to move on.
I worked a job over six years. I made them a lot of money over that time. One day a middle manager walked me to the HR office and then out the door. No severence, nothing. Loyalty and security are an illusion.
interview ... any reasonable employer will understand your leaving for a much better income. If they have a bad reaction, you're also better off somewhere else. After you receive a firm offer, be honest with your current employer. They may take the opportunity to counter. "I'm really sorry about the bad timing, but I'd be crazy to turn down an offer like this."
Follow your heart, your company doesn't have feelings to be hurt. Business is business, a better work environment with double the salary is the wiser decision.
Its double the pay. Just be honest with your current employer and be sure to gratuitously thank them for giving you a shot and wish them well in the future. Do not burn that bridge :)
Good luck.
Good luck.
Things could be better (and better-managed), and I'm anxious to work full-time on a startup (currently doing 2 hours every morning on the side), but overall it's a good job and a good experience and I thought it'd be educational to be here at least until early next year. However, the other day I got a LinkedIn message from a recruiter for a local startup that's raised gads of cash and is already drawing a lot of revenue. He said I sounded like a good fit, and he really wanted to interview me (according to TechCrunch they're hiring three people a week). I make $75K + about $50K of RSU now, but he was offering up to $150K and other really nice benefits. And I'd probably be happier working for a startup than a larger company (but they have enough employees that I'd still get the mentorship I was looking for).
I responded and said it sounded great but it was a really bad time since I'd just started my current job. And he responded encouraging me to interview anyway and see where things led.
I am an at-will employee, so in theory I could skip out, but I'd feel like a giant douchebag if I did so. On the other hand, if everything pans out (I'm not being deceived by slimy recruiter tactics; they accept me; I like the company...) it's a really great opportunity. I'm happy to answer any other questions.
What would you recommend?
Thanks
[HN user for a long time; throwaway for obvious reasons]