Kvazaar HEVC/H.265 encoder released under GPLv2(github.com)
github.com
Kvazaar HEVC/H.265 encoder released under GPLv2
https://github.com/ultravideo/kvazaar
4 comments
What about the patents in use within HEVC? Will an open source implementation provider have to pay royalties for each download? ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Efficiency_Video_Coding#S... )
Only if they provide binaries, at that point it gets patent cooties, and they'd be liable for $25 million per year.
Is it as clear cut as binaries == license required; source code == no licence required? Is this specific to the codec's patent pool or how patents work in general? What about interpreted languages or bytecode?
You can study patents for free; that is part of the purported purpose of the system. So if you copy the code purely to learn about it, that is arguably not an infringement. Using the code is in violation without a license. This applies whether source, interpreted, compiled, bytecode, or decompiled. It will be harder to convince a judge that you were just studying it if you have only a form that is conducive to running and not conducive to study, though, if you are found out and sued.
Of course, you'd better not plan on using anything you learned from it until you negotiate licenses for your users (or the patent expires).
Of course, you'd better not plan on using anything you learned from it until you negotiate licenses for your users (or the patent expires).
Note that once you get that source code, when you start using it, then you are responsible for the patent royalties.
I think this is all left intentionally vague by patent owners, since they want you to just pay to be on the safe side, there's plenty of straightforward things you technically can't do with patented codecs, but which you'll never get sued for e.g. the person you pay to video your wedding has no licence to sell you the H.264 file the camera produced, and no way of getting one.
So I think it's at least partly based on what they haven't bothered to sue anyone over, though perhaps free speech comes into it in the USA.
I think this is all left intentionally vague by patent owners, since they want you to just pay to be on the safe side, there's plenty of straightforward things you technically can't do with patented codecs, but which you'll never get sued for e.g. the person you pay to video your wedding has no licence to sell you the H.264 file the camera produced, and no way of getting one.
So I think it's at least partly based on what they haven't bothered to sue anyone over, though perhaps free speech comes into it in the USA.
having source code has nothing to do with patents. its completely separate. likewie for the license. both could be public domain (no license) or licensed. in this case its licensed under the terms of the gpl v2 and a bunch if the code is probably patented, (again, compiled or not, that doesn't change anything)
This is absolutely false.
While I recognize the technical excellent qualities of H264 and expect H265 to improve on that, at this point I'd rather not touch anything which involves patents at all.
Let's not give the Apples and similar patent-trolls of the future more ammunition to shoot with than strictly necessary.
Give us free and open alternatives. Give us a future where we can focus on the technology being delivered, not the lawyers which will need to get paid in order to avoid takedown notices.
Let's not give the Apples and similar patent-trolls of the future more ammunition to shoot with than strictly necessary.
Give us free and open alternatives. Give us a future where we can focus on the technology being delivered, not the lawyers which will need to get paid in order to avoid takedown notices.
"I'd rather not touch anything which involves patents at all."
Unfortunately, that's not something you can reasonably expect, ever. Mike Pall made a statement about the IP of LuaJIT [1], and made the point that while his own contributions are freely donated to the public domain...
"I cannot guarantee it to be free of third-party IP however. In fact nobody can. Writing software has become a minefield and any moderately complex piece of software is probably (unknowingly to the author) encumbered by hundreds of dubious patents."
[1] http://lua-users.org/lists/lua-l/2009-11/msg00089.html
Unfortunately, that's not something you can reasonably expect, ever. Mike Pall made a statement about the IP of LuaJIT [1], and made the point that while his own contributions are freely donated to the public domain...
"I cannot guarantee it to be free of third-party IP however. In fact nobody can. Writing software has become a minefield and any moderately complex piece of software is probably (unknowingly to the author) encumbered by hundreds of dubious patents."
[1] http://lua-users.org/lists/lua-l/2009-11/msg00089.html
And you can avoid software which you know is patent encumbered. Even if I'm stuck walking through a minefield, it makes sense to avoid stepping in the couple places I know there are mines.
What you can do to minimize the risk of patent issues is to only distribute the software where software patents are not granted. EU for example is to my knowledge somewhat safe, through not completely.
That's an odd definition of patent troll. In my understanding, patent trolls don't actually produce any products.
Because as with every political issue, the definition has been twisted by the well-advertised incumbents to transmute grassroots concern for change into status quo preservation.
The actual issue is broad and vague patents on obvious things, where the novelty is confined to their obfuscated wording.
Techniques that are commonly independently reinvented should not fall under the patent system at all. But then some lawler figures out how to make a tenuous connection with a completely lineage-unrelated patent and they go trolling for settlements, regardless of whether they're a small company that does only this or staff counsel for a large company that also happens to manufacture things.
But no shit large companies like IBM, Apple, Oracle, etc want to limit patent reform to "non-practicing entities" and continue their general low-stakes protection racket while screwing over the little guys (genuine patent holders and patent victims alike).
The actual issue is broad and vague patents on obvious things, where the novelty is confined to their obfuscated wording.
Techniques that are commonly independently reinvented should not fall under the patent system at all. But then some lawler figures out how to make a tenuous connection with a completely lineage-unrelated patent and they go trolling for settlements, regardless of whether they're a small company that does only this or staff counsel for a large company that also happens to manufacture things.
But no shit large companies like IBM, Apple, Oracle, etc want to limit patent reform to "non-practicing entities" and continue their general low-stakes protection racket while screwing over the little guys (genuine patent holders and patent victims alike).
From what I've seen, there's a lot more trawling than trolling going on. "Troll" as the creature who demands toll for a bridge he didn't build seems the more fitting analogy.
I guess Apple would more accurately be called "patent bully" or "patent abuser".
How are they either?
They have sued over patents that should never have been granted.
And which patents do you think should never have been granted? Those supposed bad patents have been held true in courts, repeatedly, around the world. Perhaps you just want a boogeyman to blame for what you perceive to be a broken system?
A good example is the design patent for the iPad. That specific design had plenty of prior art, hence making it obviously invalid.
Just because courts let you do something doesn't make it ethical.
Just because courts let you do something doesn't make it ethical.
Except there was not prior art, the iPad patent was found valid through reexamination and at court
The court found it met the requirements of the law.
The law/case law is far too loose with the requirements for novelty.
Being upheld by a court does not mean something is a good patent.
Mathematics are not supposed to be patentable at all but people manage to sneak in pure algorithms by gluing them to an arbitrary machine. The system is quite clearly broken.
The law/case law is far too loose with the requirements for novelty.
Being upheld by a court does not mean something is a good patent.
Mathematics are not supposed to be patentable at all but people manage to sneak in pure algorithms by gluing them to an arbitrary machine. The system is quite clearly broken.
>Being upheld by a court does not mean something is a good patent.
The only good patent is the one that stands up in court.
The only good patent is the one that stands up in court.
You're just being snarky and not actually playing a game of semantics, right? Patent that progresses the arts vs. patent that makes money, regulation tries to make these ideas correlate as much as possible but there are flaws.
If nothing else, 2001 - A space odyssey very clearly has information devices with almost exactly the same shape of the iPad.
The Star Trek PADD is not too far off either.
The patent is bogus to any sane and honest individual.
The Star Trek PADD is not too far off either.
The patent is bogus to any sane and honest individual.
In what way do any of these look like an iPad? (apart from being vaguely rectangular)
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=star+trek+padd&num=30&clie...
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=star+trek+padd&num=30&clie...
First on the left has similarities. It is indeed not that close. It's the space odyssey one that is much closer.
> If nothing else, 2001 - A space odyssey very clearly has information devices with almost exactly the same shape of the iPad.
Apparently it wasn't.
>The Star Trek PADD is not too far off either.
Neither was this
Apparently it wasn't.
>The Star Trek PADD is not too far off either.
Neither was this
Exactly, H264 supposes to be a patent pool that as long as you pay the royalty and get a license, you are free of other patent trolling. Mess these two up can significantly hinder the positive side of patent pooling.
Would you use a implementation has unknown software patent license issues or would you use a implementation that has known software patent pool to protect you from patent bully?
I am not saying this is the best solution (you still pay royalty fees for some software patent), but the general idea of having a patent pool to protect you from unknown patent trolling is a positive thing.
Would you use a implementation has unknown software patent license issues or would you use a implementation that has known software patent pool to protect you from patent bully?
I am not saying this is the best solution (you still pay royalty fees for some software patent), but the general idea of having a patent pool to protect you from unknown patent trolling is a positive thing.
Unfortunately, none of that is true.
MPEG-LA doesn't give you a licence to all known H.264 patents.
The only way they protect you from trolls is if the troll is happy to take a cut of their existing take, which if you had a solid patent with no FRAND obligation, would probably be silly.
They will troll the people offering you alternatives though.
Patent pools are an inefficient government solution to a government created problem. They looked like they might actually fix this, but the amount of rent the government lets these corporations collect as a tax on digital communication means they have the lobbying power to keep it rolling.
MPEG-LA doesn't give you a licence to all known H.264 patents.
The only way they protect you from trolls is if the troll is happy to take a cut of their existing take, which if you had a solid patent with no FRAND obligation, would probably be silly.
They will troll the people offering you alternatives though.
Patent pools are an inefficient government solution to a government created problem. They looked like they might actually fix this, but the amount of rent the government lets these corporations collect as a tax on digital communication means they have the lobbying power to keep it rolling.
MPEG1 is old enough that the patents should have expired by now.
The H.264 MPEG-LA patent pool is really pretty reasonably priced for any commercial use I can imagine. The only company outside the pool and suing for massive license fees that I am aware of is Google (Motorola).
I'm not sure of the current state of the H.265 pool and license so I make no comment on them.
The H.264 MPEG-LA patent pool is really pretty reasonably priced for any commercial use I can imagine. The only company outside the pool and suing for massive license fees that I am aware of is Google (Motorola).
I'm not sure of the current state of the H.265 pool and license so I make no comment on them.
Unfortunately the GPLv2 license makes this an academic exercise. Mind you, perhaps that was exactly the goal, so I'm not criticizing, just pointing out some issues.
Quoting the GPLv2:
7. If, as a consequence of a court judgment or allegation of patent infringement or for any other reason (not limited to patent issues), conditions are imposed on you (whether by court order, agreement or otherwise) that contradict the conditions of this License, they do not excuse you from the conditions of this License. If you cannot distribute so as to satisfy simultaneously your obligations under this License and any other pertinent obligations, then as a consequence you may not distribute the Program at all. For example, if a patent license would not permit royalty-free redistribution of the Program by all those who receive copies directly or indirectly through you, then the only way you could satisfy both it and this License would be to refrain entirely from distribution of the Program.
What this basically means in the words of every legal advice I've gotten over the years is that by distributing software that is under GPLv2 you run the risk of having to stop distributing it. While this is fine in an academic setting, if you actually build a product using this software, you are toast.
This section of the GPL is actually the major reason why many companies will go to great lengths to avoid using GPLv2 software in their products. Many people think it's the requirement to release the full source code — it's not. Releasing sources is rarely a problem.
Please, if you reply to this, don't fight straw men: software authors can choose any license they please and it is their decision to make. I'm not criticizing that choice. I'm just pointing out some consequences which might not be obvious to everyone, and which are particularly relevant in the case of heavily patented video standards.
Quoting the GPLv2:
7. If, as a consequence of a court judgment or allegation of patent infringement or for any other reason (not limited to patent issues), conditions are imposed on you (whether by court order, agreement or otherwise) that contradict the conditions of this License, they do not excuse you from the conditions of this License. If you cannot distribute so as to satisfy simultaneously your obligations under this License and any other pertinent obligations, then as a consequence you may not distribute the Program at all. For example, if a patent license would not permit royalty-free redistribution of the Program by all those who receive copies directly or indirectly through you, then the only way you could satisfy both it and this License would be to refrain entirely from distribution of the Program.
What this basically means in the words of every legal advice I've gotten over the years is that by distributing software that is under GPLv2 you run the risk of having to stop distributing it. While this is fine in an academic setting, if you actually build a product using this software, you are toast.
This section of the GPL is actually the major reason why many companies will go to great lengths to avoid using GPLv2 software in their products. Many people think it's the requirement to release the full source code — it's not. Releasing sources is rarely a problem.
Please, if you reply to this, don't fight straw men: software authors can choose any license they please and it is their decision to make. I'm not criticizing that choice. I'm just pointing out some consequences which might not be obvious to everyone, and which are particularly relevant in the case of heavily patented video standards.
Please stop spreading FUD. Misleading advices like yours do nothing to help people understand the legal climate of copyright and patents, and thus only spread fear, uncertainty and doubt.
The license choice of this program do absolutely nothing to the fact that infringing patent rights run the risk of forcing a company to stop distributing a product. BSD, GPL, MIT, Apache, proprietary license, public domain. It. Does. Not. Matter. Copyright law and patent law are two different area of law.
That someone might come and impose condition on the distributor for "other reasons", is quite irrelevant. Of course someone might go to Microsoft and use a rubber hose to impose condition on then, but what the ... does that has to do with copyright licenses? Someone can equally easy impose restriction that prevent a company to comply with the BSD license.
Patent agreements are also not even covered by the GPLv2. This has been said by the lawyers who made the license. If you do not trust that, then trust all the lawyers who argued with Stallman to not include such provisions in the GPLv3 draft, which include many of the largest software companies in the world. So again, I call FUD on such claims. If your claim was true, GPLv3 would not be said to had adding it.
Last, companies such as blizzard included LGPLv2 software in their flagship product called Starcraft 2. If companies would go for such great lengths to avoid using GPL licenses (the LGPLv2 code itself is under same requirement as GPLv2 except for the linking exception), then how come they couldn't spend the few extra weeks to replace a small library? Or should we all expect that blizzards lawyers are incompetent and this flagship product was just extremely lucky to not been sent to the grave? again, I call FUD.
So Please, stop with the FUD. Why ruin more comment threads about interesting software with it? Some people come here to discuss technology.
The license choice of this program do absolutely nothing to the fact that infringing patent rights run the risk of forcing a company to stop distributing a product. BSD, GPL, MIT, Apache, proprietary license, public domain. It. Does. Not. Matter. Copyright law and patent law are two different area of law.
That someone might come and impose condition on the distributor for "other reasons", is quite irrelevant. Of course someone might go to Microsoft and use a rubber hose to impose condition on then, but what the ... does that has to do with copyright licenses? Someone can equally easy impose restriction that prevent a company to comply with the BSD license.
Patent agreements are also not even covered by the GPLv2. This has been said by the lawyers who made the license. If you do not trust that, then trust all the lawyers who argued with Stallman to not include such provisions in the GPLv3 draft, which include many of the largest software companies in the world. So again, I call FUD on such claims. If your claim was true, GPLv3 would not be said to had adding it.
Last, companies such as blizzard included LGPLv2 software in their flagship product called Starcraft 2. If companies would go for such great lengths to avoid using GPL licenses (the LGPLv2 code itself is under same requirement as GPLv2 except for the linking exception), then how come they couldn't spend the few extra weeks to replace a small library? Or should we all expect that blizzards lawyers are incompetent and this flagship product was just extremely lucky to not been sent to the grave? again, I call FUD.
So Please, stop with the FUD. Why ruin more comment threads about interesting software with it? Some people come here to discuss technology.
> Patent agreements are also not even covered by the GPLv2
What about section 7?
What about section 7?
Section 7 grants the recipient the permission to use, modify and redistribute. If the distributor is under contract which says he can not provide such permission, then the result is quite expectable.
BSD license says "Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without modification, are permitted". If the distributors is under contract that forbids granting such permission, the result is again quite expectable. The only option would be to add restriction on distribution on top of the BSD license, making it proprietary licensed. I will grant jwr that GPL is different from BSD in that aspect, since it do not allow proprietary licensing.
Neither has anything to do with patent agreements, because it all focus on permission for redistribution, use and modification. Patent agreements are one company contractually promising not to sue the other company or their customers over patents, and thus we have GPLv3. Since such promise are not conditions placed on either company, section 7 "if ... conditions are imposed on you" do not get invoked. Microsoft-Novell agreement is likely an example of this. See the wikipedia article for more details, including what the lawyers said at the time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft-Novell_agreement#Agr...
BSD license says "Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without modification, are permitted". If the distributors is under contract that forbids granting such permission, the result is again quite expectable. The only option would be to add restriction on distribution on top of the BSD license, making it proprietary licensed. I will grant jwr that GPL is different from BSD in that aspect, since it do not allow proprietary licensing.
Neither has anything to do with patent agreements, because it all focus on permission for redistribution, use and modification. Patent agreements are one company contractually promising not to sue the other company or their customers over patents, and thus we have GPLv3. Since such promise are not conditions placed on either company, section 7 "if ... conditions are imposed on you" do not get invoked. Microsoft-Novell agreement is likely an example of this. See the wikipedia article for more details, including what the lawyers said at the time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft-Novell_agreement#Agr...
>BSD license says "Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without modification, are permitted". If the distributors is under contract that forbids granting such permission, the result is again quite expectable.
I think I see why you are confused here. That permission grant in the BSD licence is granted by the copyright holder, and is not a condition of redistribution by any intermediary (you don't own the copyright to the code so you don't have the ability to grant that permission anyway). To redistribute you must merely follow the 2/3 terms of the licence which boil down to keeping the copyright notice and text of the licence (and for the 3 clause not using the authors names to promote it).
You can distribute BSD licensed code in binary form as long as you have the required patent licences. The original author does not need those licences (if they never distribute the binaries) and neither do your customers (if they never distribute the binaries).
That term at the start of the BSD licence is not a condition of redistribution.
I think I see why you are confused here. That permission grant in the BSD licence is granted by the copyright holder, and is not a condition of redistribution by any intermediary (you don't own the copyright to the code so you don't have the ability to grant that permission anyway). To redistribute you must merely follow the 2/3 terms of the licence which boil down to keeping the copyright notice and text of the licence (and for the 3 clause not using the authors names to promote it).
You can distribute BSD licensed code in binary form as long as you have the required patent licences. The original author does not need those licences (if they never distribute the binaries) and neither do your customers (if they never distribute the binaries).
That term at the start of the BSD licence is not a condition of redistribution.
> You can distribute BSD licensed code in binary form as long as you have the required patent licences.
You are confusing the steps. One is a person taking BSD work and adding an additional license to the binary result (proprietary licensing).
The other way, is someone taking BSD work and redistribute it as BSD (under no additional license).
If you attach the BSD license to the binary, you are giving permission to redistribute further than the patent owner permitted. Thus the only allowed scenario with a patent with restriction on distribution, is the first one which is called proprietary licensing.
And BSD allow it, GPL do not. Thus one can summarize it as as: Some patent licenses require proprietary licensing, which can only be added to a BSD/MIT work. GPL do not allow proprietary licensing, and thus do not work with such patent licenses.
However, that is not the message he made, which is why I called FUD on it. It is also not very interesting statement since anyone who knows about GPL and BSD knows about how they differ regarding proprietary licensing.
You are confusing the steps. One is a person taking BSD work and adding an additional license to the binary result (proprietary licensing).
The other way, is someone taking BSD work and redistribute it as BSD (under no additional license).
If you attach the BSD license to the binary, you are giving permission to redistribute further than the patent owner permitted. Thus the only allowed scenario with a patent with restriction on distribution, is the first one which is called proprietary licensing.
And BSD allow it, GPL do not. Thus one can summarize it as as: Some patent licenses require proprietary licensing, which can only be added to a BSD/MIT work. GPL do not allow proprietary licensing, and thus do not work with such patent licenses.
However, that is not the message he made, which is why I called FUD on it. It is also not very interesting statement since anyone who knows about GPL and BSD knows about how they differ regarding proprietary licensing.
The essence of point 7 of the GPL applies to every piece of software covered by patents you don't own or license – other people's patents can force you to do a lot of things against your will. Even if a more permissive BSD or MIT license were used, you could still be prevented from distributing due to patent rulings.
In any case, many popular open-source encoders are also under either GPLv2 or LGPLv2.1. Examples include libx264, libmp3lame, libfdk_aac, libfaac. The license hasn't prevented them being very useful to many people.
In any case, many popular open-source encoders are also under either GPLv2 or LGPLv2.1. Examples include libx264, libmp3lame, libfdk_aac, libfaac. The license hasn't prevented them being very useful to many people.
> [...] other people's patents can force you to do a lot of things against your will. Even if a more permissive BSD or MIT license were used, you could still be prevented from distributing due to patent rulings.
That is true. But in that case it is not the license that prevents me from distributing and I can negotiate with the patent holders, pay royalties and have the problem resolved.
The anti-patent clause in the GPLv2 prevents that: even if I get all the patent licensing in place, I cannot distribute the software if I cannot pass the same rights onto others. That is the whole point of it: as I understand it, it is a tool to fight the freedom battle.
> In any case, many popular open-source encoders are also under either GPLv2 or LGPLv2.1. Examples include libx264, libmp3lame, libfdk_aac, libfaac. The license hasn't prevented them being very useful to many people
That is also true. I'm just providing a different point of view, one which you might not have heard about: many commercial products cannot include those libraries because of the legal risk.
I will not respond to people that shout "FUD" without any arguments. What I wrote was not a rant, and was based on my experience in several companies, each of which got legal advice about this. So, if you believe I'm wrong, please imagine for a moment that I'm building tablets (hence, "distributing" software), I have licensed all the relevant patents (thus, I pay royalties) and describe how you think Section 7 of the GPLv2 permits me to distribute software that requires payment of royalties.
EDIT: after reading all the (unnecessarily heated) responses, I think I will have to draw some diagrams. People seem to misunderstand the problem. Again: with many other licenses I can license the patents, and the patent license will cover all my (and my users') usage. With GPLv2 this is not possible, because Section 7 requires that no restrictions be placed on anyone.
In other words: yes, it is true that patents are problem for all licenses. No, it is not true that GPLv2 is equivalent to BSD/MIT/other licenses in this regard.
That is true. But in that case it is not the license that prevents me from distributing and I can negotiate with the patent holders, pay royalties and have the problem resolved.
The anti-patent clause in the GPLv2 prevents that: even if I get all the patent licensing in place, I cannot distribute the software if I cannot pass the same rights onto others. That is the whole point of it: as I understand it, it is a tool to fight the freedom battle.
> In any case, many popular open-source encoders are also under either GPLv2 or LGPLv2.1. Examples include libx264, libmp3lame, libfdk_aac, libfaac. The license hasn't prevented them being very useful to many people
That is also true. I'm just providing a different point of view, one which you might not have heard about: many commercial products cannot include those libraries because of the legal risk.
I will not respond to people that shout "FUD" without any arguments. What I wrote was not a rant, and was based on my experience in several companies, each of which got legal advice about this. So, if you believe I'm wrong, please imagine for a moment that I'm building tablets (hence, "distributing" software), I have licensed all the relevant patents (thus, I pay royalties) and describe how you think Section 7 of the GPLv2 permits me to distribute software that requires payment of royalties.
EDIT: after reading all the (unnecessarily heated) responses, I think I will have to draw some diagrams. People seem to misunderstand the problem. Again: with many other licenses I can license the patents, and the patent license will cover all my (and my users') usage. With GPLv2 this is not possible, because Section 7 requires that no restrictions be placed on anyone.
In other words: yes, it is true that patents are problem for all licenses. No, it is not true that GPLv2 is equivalent to BSD/MIT/other licenses in this regard.
If you are under obligations that do not allow recipients to distribute the program, doing so anyway will put you under liability.
If you are under contract that says you can not use a patent within a BSD licensed software (that grants redistribution), you will suddenly not be able to distribute software as under BSD license. The contact forbids you, and if you remove the bsd copyright notice then BSD license forbid you.
If this happen often to you, my advice is to not get into contractual agreements that contradicts with what you are trying to do.
> because Section 7 requires that no restrictions be placed on anyone.
False. Section 7 require that recipient of the software can redistribute the software. The lawyer for the European Commission was very explicit in that analysis.
If you are under contract that says you can not use a patent within a BSD licensed software (that grants redistribution), you will suddenly not be able to distribute software as under BSD license. The contact forbids you, and if you remove the bsd copyright notice then BSD license forbid you.
If this happen often to you, my advice is to not get into contractual agreements that contradicts with what you are trying to do.
> because Section 7 requires that no restrictions be placed on anyone.
False. Section 7 require that recipient of the software can redistribute the software. The lawyer for the European Commission was very explicit in that analysis.
This isn't as complicated as this thread has made it out to be. Look at it from the perspective of a(n American) company that wants to distribute a product with kvazaar. They are prepared to purchase a distribution license from MPEG-LA for each copy sold (read: distributed), and the terms of that license do not include resale (or redistributed). Any customer redistributing their copy must purchase their own license from MPEG-LA. But they're also beholden to the terms of the GPLv2, which says this:
> 6. Each time you redistribute the Program (or any work based on the Program), the recipient automatically receives a license from the original licensor to copy, distribute or modify the Program subject to these terms and conditions.* You may not impose any further restrictions on the recipients' exercise of the rights granted herein.
* Including unlimited redistribution in source or binary form as per sections 1 and 3.
Now there's a problem. Guaranteeing the text of the GPL implicitly allows the user to infringe the patent license, while honoring the patent license violates the guarantee of the GPL. Such a binary becomes completely un-distributable. With permissive licenses that have no such clause, there's nothing preventing Company X from distributing the licensed binary and source and telling the user that if they want to redistribute a binary, to buy a patent license of their own. That's why the BSD license would not pose a problem for distribution in the presence of an extra, more restrictive license such as a patent package.
> 6. Each time you redistribute the Program (or any work based on the Program), the recipient automatically receives a license from the original licensor to copy, distribute or modify the Program subject to these terms and conditions.* You may not impose any further restrictions on the recipients' exercise of the rights granted herein.
* Including unlimited redistribution in source or binary form as per sections 1 and 3.
Now there's a problem. Guaranteeing the text of the GPL implicitly allows the user to infringe the patent license, while honoring the patent license violates the guarantee of the GPL. Such a binary becomes completely un-distributable. With permissive licenses that have no such clause, there's nothing preventing Company X from distributing the licensed binary and source and telling the user that if they want to redistribute a binary, to buy a patent license of their own. That's why the BSD license would not pose a problem for distribution in the presence of an extra, more restrictive license such as a patent package.
This was exactly my point. Many people misunderstand the problem, and as a result are discussing something else.
I don't think you have understood what jwr is talking about.
The situation is this:
You have some software you wish to distribute in binary form (with source available). You also have a patent licence that allows you (and only you) to distribute software covered by that patent.
If the software is BSD licensed there is no problem. The licence allows you to distribute the software, and so does your patent licence. Other people who receive the software from you will need to get a patent licence if they want to distribute it, but that is their problem. The BSD licence says nothing about your responsibility to ensure that recipients can also distribute the software - only that you have to convey the copyright notice and the text of the licence. The bit at the start of the BSD licences saying that redistribution is permitted etc is not a condition of redistribution. The conditions are the 2 or 3 numbered conditions.
If the software is GPL licensed as soon as you try to distribute the software to somebody who doesn't have the same distribution patent licence as you then the original GPL licence becomes invalid and you can no longer distribute the software because you have violated clause 7 since the recipients of your software are not able to redistribute it.
Now I'm not a lawyer and I don't even live in the USA, so I can't talk about the validity of the restrictions the GPL tries to apply here, but that is the situation we are talking about.
The situation is this:
You have some software you wish to distribute in binary form (with source available). You also have a patent licence that allows you (and only you) to distribute software covered by that patent.
If the software is BSD licensed there is no problem. The licence allows you to distribute the software, and so does your patent licence. Other people who receive the software from you will need to get a patent licence if they want to distribute it, but that is their problem. The BSD licence says nothing about your responsibility to ensure that recipients can also distribute the software - only that you have to convey the copyright notice and the text of the licence. The bit at the start of the BSD licences saying that redistribution is permitted etc is not a condition of redistribution. The conditions are the 2 or 3 numbered conditions.
If the software is GPL licensed as soon as you try to distribute the software to somebody who doesn't have the same distribution patent licence as you then the original GPL licence becomes invalid and you can no longer distribute the software because you have violated clause 7 since the recipients of your software are not able to redistribute it.
Now I'm not a lawyer and I don't even live in the USA, so I can't talk about the validity of the restrictions the GPL tries to apply here, but that is the situation we are talking about.
Yes, a BSD licensed work can be used in a proprietary work, while GPL do not.
Anyone is free to do a proprietary work and combine that with BSD. You can even put Microsoft's Shared Source license on it and provide source. Providing source does not mean that you got a permission to distribute (Ms-SS allow only non-commercial distribution, which would had to be permitted by the patent holder if used).
What you can not do is put BSD on the whole work, as that would conflict with the patent license. The BSD is a license that grant recipients full permission to distribute, which in this scenario the patent owner to do allow (ie, its a condition/restriction that the developer is under).
And yes, BSD and GPL is different. One is permissive, and one is copy left.
Anyone is free to do a proprietary work and combine that with BSD. You can even put Microsoft's Shared Source license on it and provide source. Providing source does not mean that you got a permission to distribute (Ms-SS allow only non-commercial distribution, which would had to be permitted by the patent holder if used).
What you can not do is put BSD on the whole work, as that would conflict with the patent license. The BSD is a license that grant recipients full permission to distribute, which in this scenario the patent owner to do allow (ie, its a condition/restriction that the developer is under).
And yes, BSD and GPL is different. One is permissive, and one is copy left.
Firstly, proprietary or not has absolutely nothing to do with this issue. The example I gave above was for fully open source software. The issue is that the GPL requires all the recipients of GPL software you distribute to also have the rights to distribute the software. Patent licences conflict with that.
Secondly, you are not allowed to re-licence code that you do not own the copyright to (I guess a licence like WTFPL would permit it as well). Your example of taking BSD source and removing the BSD licence to replace it with a Shared Source licence is not something that is permitted. The text of the BSD licence is very clear on that point. I don't know why GNU fans continue to be confused about this. The BSD parts of a combined work will remain BSD licensed and the recipient of that source is fully able to utilise those BSD sections of the source code in ways the BSD licence allows. Putting a more restrictive licence on the combined work does not change that.
>What you can not do is put BSD on the whole work, as that would conflict with the patent license. The BSD is a license that grant recipients full permission to distribute
Again, it sounds like you are pretty confused about the issues here. The BSD licence merely covers copyright concerns. You do not need to provide a patent licence if you release code under a BSD style licence. The licence says that the copyright holder grants the recipient permission to copy, modify and redistribute the code. Any other obligations the recipient might have, such as patents, don't affect the copyright holders ability to grant that permission. I've said this several times now and I'm not sure how much clearer I can make it. Yes there is a conflict for the recipient in the sense that they may only have the copyright licence to redistribute a binary, not the patent licence. But that is an issue for the recipient and does not affect the author's right to licence their work under a BSD style licence.
For somebody going around accusing other of spreading FUD it certainly seems like you have a very weak grasp of the issues here.
Secondly, you are not allowed to re-licence code that you do not own the copyright to (I guess a licence like WTFPL would permit it as well). Your example of taking BSD source and removing the BSD licence to replace it with a Shared Source licence is not something that is permitted. The text of the BSD licence is very clear on that point. I don't know why GNU fans continue to be confused about this. The BSD parts of a combined work will remain BSD licensed and the recipient of that source is fully able to utilise those BSD sections of the source code in ways the BSD licence allows. Putting a more restrictive licence on the combined work does not change that.
>What you can not do is put BSD on the whole work, as that would conflict with the patent license. The BSD is a license that grant recipients full permission to distribute
Again, it sounds like you are pretty confused about the issues here. The BSD licence merely covers copyright concerns. You do not need to provide a patent licence if you release code under a BSD style licence. The licence says that the copyright holder grants the recipient permission to copy, modify and redistribute the code. Any other obligations the recipient might have, such as patents, don't affect the copyright holders ability to grant that permission. I've said this several times now and I'm not sure how much clearer I can make it. Yes there is a conflict for the recipient in the sense that they may only have the copyright licence to redistribute a binary, not the patent licence. But that is an issue for the recipient and does not affect the author's right to licence their work under a BSD style licence.
For somebody going around accusing other of spreading FUD it certainly seems like you have a very weak grasp of the issues here.
You a very confused about the whole thing (maybe a trait of BSD fanaticism?), so let me put it in terms you might understand.
If you give me software, and tell me that I have full permission to distribute it, I might do so. If the day after you try to sue me for distributing your work, I will go to a judge and say: "judge, anon1385 told me that I had full permission to distribute the work, and here is the documentation that proves it."
In the case that its the patent holder that sue me, I will still say the exact same thing to the judge. At that point, the patent holder will simply say that you did not have permission to grant such permission.
Its not a complicated concept. If you have a contract with someone, you got to follow the contract. If the contract do not allow you to give free permission for distribution, you are not allowed to give free permission for distribution. Surely, you can understand that?
If you give me software, and tell me that I have full permission to distribute it, I might do so. If the day after you try to sue me for distributing your work, I will go to a judge and say: "judge, anon1385 told me that I had full permission to distribute the work, and here is the documentation that proves it."
In the case that its the patent holder that sue me, I will still say the exact same thing to the judge. At that point, the patent holder will simply say that you did not have permission to grant such permission.
Its not a complicated concept. If you have a contract with someone, you got to follow the contract. If the contract do not allow you to give free permission for distribution, you are not allowed to give free permission for distribution. Surely, you can understand that?
> ....(maybe a trait of BSD fanaticism?)...
downvoted for ad homenim
downvoted for ad homenim
Fair enough, two wrongs don't make a right. Out of curiosity, did you upvote/downvote the potshot about "GNU fans"?
I did neither upvote nor downvote, and in fact didn't even notice it. Searching the page I do indeed find it now.
I am by no means the "be nice police". For some reason I found your post a bit less acceptable. Maybe because the other was more broadly painted, and yours seemed a bit more... personally directed?
I am by no means the "be nice police". For some reason I found your post a bit less acceptable. Maybe because the other was more broadly painted, and yours seemed a bit more... personally directed?
You could acquire a license that automatically propogates with the GPL code, but it is likely to be expensive...
Edited to add: it occurs to me that adding such an ability to RAND requirements might be a very interesting half measure.
Edited to add: it occurs to me that adding such an ability to RAND requirements might be a very interesting half measure.
I don't think this is a major concern.
x264 is under GPLv2 too and has not run into any such issues despite being in nearly the exact same place patent licensing wise.
x264 is under GPLv2 too and has not run into any such issues despite being in nearly the exact same place patent licensing wise.
x264 offers a commercial licensing program for this reason.
No, they released x264 under GPL from the very beginning, the commercial licencing came much later and the reason they offer this is because it is how they (the x264 authors) make money on x264, namely by offering proprietary licences for companies who wants to use x264 in proprietary projects.
And there's a new x265 project (not by the same authors) which is using the exact same model, which is that they release it under GPL and will also be selling proprietary licences.
And there's a new x265 project (not by the same authors) which is using the exact same model, which is that they release it under GPL and will also be selling proprietary licences.
a) they only offered that later on
b) they offer it so that people who don't like the GPL have an option, which is a fairly standard thing for projects that aren't worried about patents to do, not because the GPL is incompatible with x264
I didn't mean to imply it was the only reason for pursuing a dual-licensing model, but when I spoke to DS about it many years ago (before x264licensing existed) he recognized that it was a potentially serious problem.
He certainly recognized that patents is a potential problem, x264 is a implementation of patented technology, however that problem is not tied to the licence no matter what jwr is trying to spin.
And patents had nothing to do with them offering a dual-licence model, it was in order to be able to make money from their work when companies wanted to use x264 in a proprietary fashion (GPL is not compatible with proprietary), and from what I understand they have been doing great business this way.
And patents had nothing to do with them offering a dual-licence model, it was in order to be able to make money from their work when companies wanted to use x264 in a proprietary fashion (GPL is not compatible with proprietary), and from what I understand they have been doing great business this way.
If the code had instead been licensed as BSD then things would not be different in the slightest for someone who ended up with the code from the original authors. If some legal thing prevents some use permitted by the GPL than that use would of been prevented for the BSD licensed code as well.
I believe with a BSD licence you could pay royalties for the license and keep distributing under the BSD license. The GPL clause doesn't allow you to do this.
I'm sure you can do that for GPL software aswell, and i don't see witch part of that clause forbids it.
The argument seems to be as following:
You can permit redistribution to recipients of a program even if a patent license forbids you to grant that permission. This is the case of BSD.
GPL says that all recipients of a program must be permitted to redistribute. jwr claim that this makes it incompatible with patent licenses.
You can permit redistribution to recipients of a program even if a patent license forbids you to grant that permission. This is the case of BSD.
GPL says that all recipients of a program must be permitted to redistribute. jwr claim that this makes it incompatible with patent licenses.
The GPL only imposes restrictions if you distribute the software. If you only use it internally (e.g. server side) I don't believe that you are under any restrictions.
"here is black "
but - i'm not saying its black!
yes, you are criticizing both the license and the choice. personally, i disagree both with the cheap way you argument it while defending yourself (its your opinion, stand by it) and that this license is a bad choice.
but - i'm not saying its black!
yes, you are criticizing both the license and the choice. personally, i disagree both with the cheap way you argument it while defending yourself (its your opinion, stand by it) and that this license is a bad choice.
I suppose not many people are qualified to comment on the program, though.
Anyway, this code is unusually clean and actually structured, which is rare considering the horrors of most encoder codebases (libavcodec mpegvideo, android, any commercial source…). That's probably because it's not optimized for speed; most people act as if writing optimized code literally requires you to leave out comments and make the program ten times longer.
But it is pretty much an academic codebase and doesn't really do much. Following x265's progress would be better for the moment if you want to use HEVC for anything.