Argentina restricts online shopping as foreign reserves drop(bbc.co.uk)
bbc.co.uk
Argentina restricts online shopping as foreign reserves drop
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-25836208
11 comments
Argentina keeps resembling a dictatorship / failed state more and more with every passing month.
It's incredibly what the government had done to the economy just in a couple of years. In 2008 we were virtually safe from the world crisis.
Then they didn't stop the public spending, so the emitted more and more pesos, which lead to inflation, that they didn't want to admit, so they started fixing the exchange rate with the dollar.
Until it was unbelievable cheap, so they started to control it.
More and more restrictions went on. So many that they basically destroyed the economy trust, that is pretty much everything in economy.
It's incredible that this distortions led to a country with few dollars, expensive for forgings, with no foreign investment. And it's also cheap for Argentines to travel abroad!
I have no idea how the hell they did that mess so quickly.
Then they didn't stop the public spending, so the emitted more and more pesos, which lead to inflation, that they didn't want to admit, so they started fixing the exchange rate with the dollar.
Until it was unbelievable cheap, so they started to control it.
More and more restrictions went on. So many that they basically destroyed the economy trust, that is pretty much everything in economy.
It's incredible that this distortions led to a country with few dollars, expensive for forgings, with no foreign investment. And it's also cheap for Argentines to travel abroad!
I have no idea how the hell they did that mess so quickly.
There is no gold in the vaults only useless paper notes backed up by the fraudulent system of fractional reserve banks. Paper notes goes back to their intrinsic value that of paper.
Argentina and India will most likely by their history of high inflation be keen to use cryptographic currencies like Bitcoin.
Argentina and India will most likely by their history of high inflation be keen to use cryptographic currencies like Bitcoin.
Argentina is now the primary candidate for Bitcoin adoption.
High GDP.
Crazy inflation.
Corrupt stupid government.
Totalitarian-style financial laws.
Easy widespread internet and mobile access.
Not enough dollars.
High GDP.
Crazy inflation.
Corrupt stupid government.
Totalitarian-style financial laws.
Easy widespread internet and mobile access.
Not enough dollars.
I have an actual real-life case study that supports this. I know someone who is currently outsourcing development to Argentina (close time zone, technical population and he gets to practice his spanish).
His current method of paying them is to pay a US residing relative of theirs who is basically holding the money as a stateside retirement account for the Argentinians.
He offered over a year ago to start paying them in BTC so that they could actually spend they money he was paying them (for which I'm sure they are kicking themselves for turning down now).
So while there are all sorts of issues with BTC in terms of liquidity, exchange and security its probably a mark of how bad it is in Argentina that BTC looks sane and stable in comparison.
His current method of paying them is to pay a US residing relative of theirs who is basically holding the money as a stateside retirement account for the Argentinians.
He offered over a year ago to start paying them in BTC so that they could actually spend they money he was paying them (for which I'm sure they are kicking themselves for turning down now).
So while there are all sorts of issues with BTC in terms of liquidity, exchange and security its probably a mark of how bad it is in Argentina that BTC looks sane and stable in comparison.
One of the simple ways to solve the payment issue is to open an LLC in USA, receive the payments in a US bank account and transfer the money via a "cueva" (cave).
There are legal ways also, you can find the details in the Globant's SEC filling: https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1557860/000114420413...
In that way you can buy and sell dollars using the black market currency in a legal way.
There are legal ways also, you can find the details in the Globant's SEC filling: https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1557860/000114420413...
In that way you can buy and sell dollars using the black market currency in a legal way.
tl;dr
Buy USD-denominated Argentine government bonds in the USA (or have your customer do that). Sell the bonds in Argentina, getting more pesos than you would have through the normal mechanism.
Buy USD-denominated Argentine government bonds in the USA (or have your customer do that). Sell the bonds in Argentina, getting more pesos than you would have through the normal mechanism.
Unsurprisingly, there is high interest in Argentina for Bitcoin. The latin american bitcoin conference was in Buenos Aires and there is a foundation.
http://labitconf.com/ http://www.bitcoinargentina.org/
A lot of argentinian hackers I spoke to are very well-informed about bitcoin.
http://labitconf.com/ http://www.bitcoinargentina.org/
A lot of argentinian hackers I spoke to are very well-informed about bitcoin.
so the problem isn't an imbalance of imports (sending foreign currency out) vs exports (bringing foreign currency in)?
It is, and the underlying problem is that people don't want to bring dollars to Argentina. Why not? Well, because it's illegal to buy pesos with dollars at a fair price; you must accept a really crappy exchange rate or go to the black market. You can see why few would bring dollars to the country under those conditions.
Currency controls like this are the hallmark of a corrupt regime trying their best to pretend there isn't any problem with printing a whole lot of money.
Currency controls like this are the hallmark of a corrupt regime trying their best to pretend there isn't any problem with printing a whole lot of money.
Currency controls like this are the hallmark of a corrupt regime trying their best to pretend there isn't any problem with printing a whole lot of money.
Maybe they've been listening to former Enron advisor and Nobel laureate Paul Krugman over at the NY Times. He's adamant that nothing bad can come from "printing a whole lot of money", and that it's just the ticket to get a problem economy going again—the more the better.
Maybe they've been listening to former Enron advisor and Nobel laureate Paul Krugman over at the NY Times. He's adamant that nothing bad can come from "printing a whole lot of money", and that it's just the ticket to get a problem economy going again—the more the better.
Paul Krugman is a great friend of Argentina[1] but he lives in US.
[1] Paul Krugman's Very Strange Ideas About Argentina's Economy: http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2012/05/04/paul-krug...
[1] Paul Krugman's Very Strange Ideas About Argentina's Economy: http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2012/05/04/paul-krug...
What are you talking about? This is what Krugman actually had to say about Argentina in 2001:
"Argentina entered the new century in straits similar to those of a disquieting number of European counties today. With the peso shackled to the dollar, it had (as Greece, Spain, and the other so-called PIIGS on the periphery of the Eurozone do today) what appeared to be an irremediably overvalued currency sapping the competitiveness of its exports, along with mounting difficulties servicing its debt as tax receipts dwindled in the face of recession. The counsel of the IMF was naturally for austerity. The Argentines should maintain dollar convertibility—that is, a pricey currency—and trim public expenditure in order to cover interest payments. . . . [Yet] austerity in the face of gigantic indebtedness . . . yielded precisely the devaluation and default it was supposed to prevent. If the Argentine experience is truly as exemplary as the IMF once maintained, the story can’t be a heartening one in light of the turn toward austerity today being undertaken in Europe and threatened in the US."
In contrast, the Forbes article is entirely unclear. It fails to explain the key point that the IMF was not just advocating depreciation, but was pushing for the sort of restrictive government austerity that has been forced on Greece.
"it’s also difficult to see quite what is unorthodox or heterodox about following the standard IMF prescription for a country in such problems. Default, renegotiate the debt burden and devalue the currency to try and spark an export boom."
Krugman's point is simple and stands. A simple comparison of Argentina's GDP growth post-2001 with Greek growth post-2008 shows this plainly enough: one economy recovered quickly and the other is still sinking.
"Argentina entered the new century in straits similar to those of a disquieting number of European counties today. With the peso shackled to the dollar, it had (as Greece, Spain, and the other so-called PIIGS on the periphery of the Eurozone do today) what appeared to be an irremediably overvalued currency sapping the competitiveness of its exports, along with mounting difficulties servicing its debt as tax receipts dwindled in the face of recession. The counsel of the IMF was naturally for austerity. The Argentines should maintain dollar convertibility—that is, a pricey currency—and trim public expenditure in order to cover interest payments. . . . [Yet] austerity in the face of gigantic indebtedness . . . yielded precisely the devaluation and default it was supposed to prevent. If the Argentine experience is truly as exemplary as the IMF once maintained, the story can’t be a heartening one in light of the turn toward austerity today being undertaken in Europe and threatened in the US."
In contrast, the Forbes article is entirely unclear. It fails to explain the key point that the IMF was not just advocating depreciation, but was pushing for the sort of restrictive government austerity that has been forced on Greece.
"it’s also difficult to see quite what is unorthodox or heterodox about following the standard IMF prescription for a country in such problems. Default, renegotiate the debt burden and devalue the currency to try and spark an export boom."
Krugman's point is simple and stands. A simple comparison of Argentina's GDP growth post-2001 with Greek growth post-2008 shows this plainly enough: one economy recovered quickly and the other is still sinking.
The actual situation is very different from the 2001 situation.
In 2001 we had ~10 years of 1%-2% annual inflation with the “convertibility” plan, that fix the exchange as $US1=$ARS1. So the dollar was 30% undervalued. But during that time, there was very little money emission. Some provinces had to make their own money, it was technically a bond, but it looked like a bill and was used like a bill. One of the few successful case was the Patacón ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patac%C3%B3n_(bond) ). It was successful, because it was emitted by the biggest province, it was one of the last bonds created and it lasted only for a few years. Most of the other province bond started with a $X1=$ARS1=$US1 but after a few years the exchange rate became something like $X1=$ARS0.7=$US0.7, and the public employees of the province were paid in the bonds, as if still $X1=$ARS1=$US1.
Now we have a 20% - 30% annual inflation. Interestingly, the dollar is 30% undervalued. But the emission is so height that we used all the latin alphabet to name the series, and more emission will be translated directly to more inflation.
In 2001 we had ~10 years of 1%-2% annual inflation with the “convertibility” plan, that fix the exchange as $US1=$ARS1. So the dollar was 30% undervalued. But during that time, there was very little money emission. Some provinces had to make their own money, it was technically a bond, but it looked like a bill and was used like a bill. One of the few successful case was the Patacón ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patac%C3%B3n_(bond) ). It was successful, because it was emitted by the biggest province, it was one of the last bonds created and it lasted only for a few years. Most of the other province bond started with a $X1=$ARS1=$US1 but after a few years the exchange rate became something like $X1=$ARS0.7=$US0.7, and the public employees of the province were paid in the bonds, as if still $X1=$ARS1=$US1.
Now we have a 20% - 30% annual inflation. Interestingly, the dollar is 30% undervalued. But the emission is so height that we used all the latin alphabet to name the series, and more emission will be translated directly to more inflation.
I wouldn't disagree with any of these points, but I'm not sure what any of them have to do with Krugman's comments about the relative merits of austerity in 2001.
To be fair to Paul Krugman (whatever his sins may be), his comments about the dangers of inflation in the US, which is what he's talking about in this case don't relate to the very real issue of inflation in Argentina.
despite all that inflation bitcoin's volatility is a lot higher.
Actually no, today the peso was devalued by 3% compared to the US dollar. In just one day.
And bitcoins can easily be exchanged by US dollars, so is not a bad a idea for Argentinians after all.
And bitcoins can easily be exchanged by US dollars, so is not a bad a idea for Argentinians after all.
Not so much in the past few weeks. After the China news stories the price has been pretty stable.
No, [We] Argentinians follow the dollar religiously. Don't try to give rational arguments in favor or against bitcoins it doesn't work here.
Eh. Bitcoin won't solve Argentina's foreign-exchange woes anyway. Their fundamental problem is the nation is poor, but the government wants to declare that they're not poor by fiat (printing money, and pretending that the currency hasn't devalued by making it illegal to trade it at a decent price.)
Bitcoin won't make the country prosperous any more than black-market dollars will.
Bitcoin won't make the country prosperous any more than black-market dollars will.
Bitcoin, assuming I'd does as well as before, can help against the inflation, which hits the poor disproportionately hard.
And it allows to bypass the stupid laws and let's you do the online shopping almost anonymously.
And it allows to bypass the stupid laws and let's you do the online shopping almost anonymously.
No, no, no. You can't buy non virtual stuff anonymously because "everything" is stopped by customs and you need to pick it up personally with your id.
You can buy virtual stuff like books, software, etc.
Also with bitcoins one day you will pay X and the other X/2 or 2*X.
You can buy virtual stuff like books, software, etc.
Also with bitcoins one day you will pay X and the other X/2 or 2*X.
Can you explain how a large amount of bitcoin end up getting sold into Argentina?
I don't see why anybody (in country) with dollars would bother selling them for bitcoin, and I don't see why anybody with bitcoin is going to be excited about pesos.
So you get a little trickle.
I don't see why anybody (in country) with dollars would bother selling them for bitcoin, and I don't see why anybody with bitcoin is going to be excited about pesos.
So you get a little trickle.
It's nearly impossible if you think about it in depth.
Argentina does not allow money (in significant amounts) to leave their borders.
Bitcoin is a world-currency.
In order for an argentinian to acquire a Bitcoin, he must pay taxes in excess of 50%, be limited to a few hundred USD in purchases per month, and find somebody who owns bitcoin to take argentine pesos which are in an inflationary spiral at the moment: http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=USD&to=ARS&view=10Y
The value of Bitcoin is doing the exact opposite of argentine pesos.
Anybody holding Bitcoin would have to be insane to exchange them for argentine pesos.
Argentina does not allow money (in significant amounts) to leave their borders.
Bitcoin is a world-currency.
In order for an argentinian to acquire a Bitcoin, he must pay taxes in excess of 50%, be limited to a few hundred USD in purchases per month, and find somebody who owns bitcoin to take argentine pesos which are in an inflationary spiral at the moment: http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=USD&to=ARS&view=10Y
The value of Bitcoin is doing the exact opposite of argentine pesos.
Anybody holding Bitcoin would have to be insane to exchange them for argentine pesos.
Well, it would be possible if the Argentinians adopted a "South American" Bitcoin variant with their own Genesis block: restarting the BTC valuation process based on their local economy would capture the actual local value.
You'd be in a competition at some point with the larger "Western" Bitcoin variant, but that's not an issue in the short term.
You'd be in a competition at some point with the larger "Western" Bitcoin variant, but that's not an issue in the short term.
If a "South American Bitcoin variant" was created, purely for south americans, why would anyone holding a world currency (Bitcoin) trade it for currency only recognized in south america?
Maybe I shouldn't have said BTC and that's confusing. Let's say "tamper-proof pips" wink wink.
The global BTC currency is irrelevant to this use-case which is to provide a local people group with a currency option that cannot be manipulated by the same people that screwed up their original currency option but which is calibrated to the economic output of the local people group (e.g. it's not too expensive relative to the per-capita GDP of local Argentinians).
It doesn't matter that BTC exists globally, or at all. The reason I even mentioned or suggested BTC was because (a) it exists, (b) it has certain properties that make it good at avoiding manipulation, (c) that it can be repurposed.
If you replaced Bitcoin's genesis block with a new one, and got a bunch of people to agree that this was for valuation wrt a particular economy (e.g. because Argentinian BTC miners mine on the chain beginning with this block, and few people in the global community do because there isn't an incentive for them to), then what would happen is that the value of that entirely different and distinct economy ought to come to represent the value gained by that group of miners. Who, hopefully, are in Argentina and who trade with other Argentinians. Does that make sense?
The global BTC currency is irrelevant to this use-case which is to provide a local people group with a currency option that cannot be manipulated by the same people that screwed up their original currency option but which is calibrated to the economic output of the local people group (e.g. it's not too expensive relative to the per-capita GDP of local Argentinians).
It doesn't matter that BTC exists globally, or at all. The reason I even mentioned or suggested BTC was because (a) it exists, (b) it has certain properties that make it good at avoiding manipulation, (c) that it can be repurposed.
If you replaced Bitcoin's genesis block with a new one, and got a bunch of people to agree that this was for valuation wrt a particular economy (e.g. because Argentinian BTC miners mine on the chain beginning with this block, and few people in the global community do because there isn't an incentive for them to), then what would happen is that the value of that entirely different and distinct economy ought to come to represent the value gained by that group of miners. Who, hopefully, are in Argentina and who trade with other Argentinians. Does that make sense?
Because they wish to do business in South America, or with South American companies.
Economic unity is very attractive, especially considering the financial/legal hurdles that come with reaching customers in a dozen different currencies in a dozen different national jurisdictions.
Economic unity is very attractive, especially considering the financial/legal hurdles that come with reaching customers in a dozen different currencies in a dozen different national jurisdictions.
Ok we're really going on a tangent now...
So the proposed solution is to:
a) create a crypto currency for south americans only
b) ask other countries who want to buy your resources to pay in south american coin
c) convert south america coin to bitcoin (how?) once you have transacted with the rest of the world to re-enter the world-currency market
Good luck with that idea. It's never going to work.
So the proposed solution is to:
a) create a crypto currency for south americans only
b) ask other countries who want to buy your resources to pay in south american coin
c) convert south america coin to bitcoin (how?) once you have transacted with the rest of the world to re-enter the world-currency market
Good luck with that idea. It's never going to work.
[deleted]
That's only true if they want to convert pesos into Bitcoins. However, if they can sell their services directly outside Argentina (say, a web developer for hire), they can get paid directly in Bitcoin.
Good luck supporting a "bitcoin economy" when the only income sources are argentinians selling their services over the net.
Even if Google was based in argentina, and accepted 100% of it's payments in Bitcoin, it would only account for about 10% of Argentina's current GDP.
Even if Google was based in argentina, and accepted 100% of it's payments in Bitcoin, it would only account for about 10% of Argentina's current GDP.
Whatever people are doing to get the pesos, they can do directly for bitcoin instead.
I was careful to ask how the bitcoin are going to get into the in-country economy.
If no one has any bitcoin then no one can work for bitcoin.
Of course, Argentinians could attempt to bootstrap their own cryptocurrency..
If no one has any bitcoin then no one can work for bitcoin.
Of course, Argentinians could attempt to bootstrap their own cryptocurrency..
Of course, Argentinians could attempt to bootstrap their own cryptocurrency..
It's ironic that one of the cryptocurrency experts is Argentinian: http://bitslog.wordpress.com
It's ironic that one of the cryptocurrency experts is Argentinian: http://bitslog.wordpress.com
Perhaps we ought turn the question around:
Under such circumstances, how is anyone going to keep bitcoin out of Argentina?
Under such circumstances, how is anyone going to keep bitcoin out of Argentina?
I don't think anyone is going to keep bitcoin out of Argentina.
I just don't see how enough of them can get in for it to matter all that much.
I just don't see how enough of them can get in for it to matter all that much.
who's gonna pay in bitcoin when they can do it in shitty soon-to-devaluate pesos?
Who's going to take pesos when someone else is offering bitcoin?
You have dollars and Argentinians love dollars. You can buy and sell dolars in the [not so] black market.
Who's going to offer bitcoin? Nobody living in Argentina has any to offer. American and European tourists? Why wouldn't they keep their (appreciating) bitcoins at home and just offer to pay in Dollars or Euros?
They can bootstrap a Bitcoin-variant on a new block chain, and have plenty and plenty which are calibrated to the local economy rather than the Western economy.
Remember, money doesn't have intrinsic value. There's no reason a bunch of pissed off middle class educated people can't en masse adopt a new way of trading resources.
Remember, money doesn't have intrinsic value. There's no reason a bunch of pissed off middle class educated people can't en masse adopt a new way of trading resources.
There's a market exchange rate (different from the official exchange rate), and if you could buy the pesos for less than that market rate, you could make money.
If you (a bitcoin seller) were to acquire pesos and hold them, it wouldn't work too well, as your money would get inflated away, eliminating and reversing any profit. However, you could instead (i) use them for transactions, or (ii) sell them to somebody else who has, say, dollars, but needs to buy assets in Argentina.
If you (a bitcoin seller) were to acquire pesos and hold them, it wouldn't work too well, as your money would get inflated away, eliminating and reversing any profit. However, you could instead (i) use them for transactions, or (ii) sell them to somebody else who has, say, dollars, but needs to buy assets in Argentina.
Maybe from turists? I don't know about Argentina - but in cases like this turists are often forced to buy the local currency by using the official exchange rate.
That's not true. I've seen many tourists buying pesos in the black market (arbolitos).
Martin, you have to understand that many people from other countries do not use cash most of the time and are used to be able to get a fair exchange when using their Credit/Debit cards in other countries.
These people, not having found out the state of Argentina (keep in mind that find out about all these in english is even harder than in spanish) will not arrive with much cash to exchange. And this is not a hypothetical, I've seen this a couple of times already.
These people, not having found out the state of Argentina (keep in mind that find out about all these in english is even harder than in spanish) will not arrive with much cash to exchange. And this is not a hypothetical, I've seen this a couple of times already.
They make good wines in Argentina. Someone could start selling those for bitcoins. There's also a fair amount of tourism.
Argentina economic potential is high and there are many companies that provide state of the art products and services.
The problem is the economic environment making impossible to survive for a standard business. The tax pressure is incredible high and there are not incentives for doing fair businesses.
Imagine this simple case: a company exports for ~7 pesos per dollar while imports its components for ~11. And we are not talking yet about the paperwork and bribery involved in commercial transactions.
The problem is the economic environment making impossible to survive for a standard business. The tax pressure is incredible high and there are not incentives for doing fair businesses.
Imagine this simple case: a company exports for ~7 pesos per dollar while imports its components for ~11. And we are not talking yet about the paperwork and bribery involved in commercial transactions.
100 years ago there was a common saying, as rich as an Argentine, like we might say as rich as an oligarch today. Argentina's problems are entirely down to mismanagement and corruption.
"100 years ago there was a common saying, as rich as an Argentine, like we might say as rich as an oligarch today."
You can say the same today. The problem with Argentina is that while it got a GDP equal to Canada in last century, the money was never good distributed, like in Canada, Germany or France.
So just a couple of people will own more than half Texas(Argentina is big) while the rest of the population could only live as servants.
Today big latifundistas still own most of Argentina, and they buy the gobertment like in the past.
You can say the same today. The problem with Argentina is that while it got a GDP equal to Canada in last century, the money was never good distributed, like in Canada, Germany or France.
So just a couple of people will own more than half Texas(Argentina is big) while the rest of the population could only live as servants.
Today big latifundistas still own most of Argentina, and they buy the gobertment like in the past.
What happens with the Argentine economy is that everybody who actually kept it afloat (not the corrupt politicians, crony CKD assemblers passing as "industry" or the masses of unskilled and unemployable public employees who can make or break an election) just plain gave up
This is very difficult to explain to people in developed countries, but what you have to understand first and foremost is that in Argentina there is no "plan" at all, is a country in a permanent state of improvisation, and because of that you have things like this which are literally implemented overnight with no warning let alone debating about it, you know like democracies are supposed to do...
Because of crap like this many Argentines give up and either live off savings or just leave. And really, with an effective tax-rate of over 60% with virtually no rebates and a VAT/sales tax in the mid 20s you reach a point where your income no matter what you do is lower than your expenses, so why keep going? you are actually acquiring DEBT in order to WORK.
The current dolar reserve crisis is being handled in such a stupid sloppy manner that is difficult to explain, because it makes no sense whatsoever. For example the government wont let you buy or sell any foreign currency, but it subsidizes every operation in foreign currency at between 40% and 50% lower than real value. The excuse is to avoid an inflationary spiral but it actually created one, and destroyed the reserves of the central bank.
This is very difficult to explain to people in developed countries, but what you have to understand first and foremost is that in Argentina there is no "plan" at all, is a country in a permanent state of improvisation, and because of that you have things like this which are literally implemented overnight with no warning let alone debating about it, you know like democracies are supposed to do...
Because of crap like this many Argentines give up and either live off savings or just leave. And really, with an effective tax-rate of over 60% with virtually no rebates and a VAT/sales tax in the mid 20s you reach a point where your income no matter what you do is lower than your expenses, so why keep going? you are actually acquiring DEBT in order to WORK.
The current dolar reserve crisis is being handled in such a stupid sloppy manner that is difficult to explain, because it makes no sense whatsoever. For example the government wont let you buy or sell any foreign currency, but it subsidizes every operation in foreign currency at between 40% and 50% lower than real value. The excuse is to avoid an inflationary spiral but it actually created one, and destroyed the reserves of the central bank.
I could not agree with you more, but I do have a simple explanation for the currency exchange regulations.
The government is taxing exports by underpaying exporters for their goods, while collecting market prices from the foreign customers. The government achieves this by overstating the value of the Argentinian peso, which the exporters are forced to accept as payment (at government dictated exchange rates). This would be a problem if the government allowed citizens to purchase USD at the artificial (low cost per USD in pesos) price, so the government restricts USD purchases in Argentina.
The Chinese government implemented this policy before Argentina, which is why they are always accused of manipulating their exchange rates.
The government is taxing exports by underpaying exporters for their goods, while collecting market prices from the foreign customers. The government achieves this by overstating the value of the Argentinian peso, which the exporters are forced to accept as payment (at government dictated exchange rates). This would be a problem if the government allowed citizens to purchase USD at the artificial (low cost per USD in pesos) price, so the government restricts USD purchases in Argentina.
The Chinese government implemented this policy before Argentina, which is why they are always accused of manipulating their exchange rates.
The alleged manipulation by China is the reverse: China has been accused, by western politicians, of keeping the value of its currency lower than it would be if freely floated. This, if true, would effectively be a subsidy for exporters: they receive dollars for exports, whilst paying (cheap) local currency for labour and rent.
I apologize if I am not being clear, but this is precisely what Argentina does. Argentina keeps the value of its dollar much lower than its official exchange rate by giving exporters less pesos than the real exchange rate would dictate. The government pockets the extra USD.
You could also look at this is as if the exporters got fair market exchange rates for the USD they earn, and the government took some of the pesos the exporters were given, and immediately converted them back into USD. The effect is the same, as the exporters end up with less money than they earned, and the government pockets USD.
Overall, this reduces the resources available to people holding (the same number of an increasing pool of) pesos, thus devaluing the currency.
The fixed official exchange rate also allows for less obvious increases in the money supply (inflation).
You could also look at this is as if the exporters got fair market exchange rates for the USD they earn, and the government took some of the pesos the exporters were given, and immediately converted them back into USD. The effect is the same, as the exporters end up with less money than they earned, and the government pockets USD.
Overall, this reduces the resources available to people holding (the same number of an increasing pool of) pesos, thus devaluing the currency.
The fixed official exchange rate also allows for less obvious increases in the money supply (inflation).
From Forbes: Argentina's black market offers some 10 pesos per dollar, instead of nearly seven at the fixed exchange rate.
So, the open market value of a peso is about 0.10 USD. The official value is 0.15USD.
The official value of 1 peso (0.15USD) is higher than the open market price (0.10USD). Thus the government is overvaluing the peso.
In contrast, 1 CNY is currently worth (0.17USD), i.e. similar to the official value of 1 peso. However, some people argue that it should be worth much more (e.g. 0.25USD).
In your example, exporters are getting screwed through an implicit tax. In my example, exporters are getting an implicit subsidy.
So, the open market value of a peso is about 0.10 USD. The official value is 0.15USD.
The official value of 1 peso (0.15USD) is higher than the open market price (0.10USD). Thus the government is overvaluing the peso.
In contrast, 1 CNY is currently worth (0.17USD), i.e. similar to the official value of 1 peso. However, some people argue that it should be worth much more (e.g. 0.25USD).
In your example, exporters are getting screwed through an implicit tax. In my example, exporters are getting an implicit subsidy.
If the exporters are being subsidized, China would have to be depleting its foreign currency reserves for as long as the policy is in place.
China's trade surplus was more than 4 _trillion_ USD in 2013.
Exporters use USD (which they receive from overseas buyers) to buy CNY. Those USD add to China's foreign currency reserves.
Exporters use USD (which they receive from overseas buyers) to buy CNY. Those USD add to China's foreign currency reserves.
No; China is, through it's exporters, getting USD from abroad, not giving it away.
Parent is probably referring to a long time ago in the 90s, which indeed was a problem: you could get a better rate for your dollars on the black market than officially. The Chinese government finally normalized their currency mid/late 90s and the black market disappeared; the gov then realized that to support exporters, they actually needed to keep their currency artificially less valuable than more valuable....
Source:
http://people.hofstra.edu/geotrans/eng/ch5en/conc5en/yuanusd...
RMB was trading 1-1 with the dollar in '81, and started getting real about it in '94.
Source:
http://people.hofstra.edu/geotrans/eng/ch5en/conc5en/yuanusd...
RMB was trading 1-1 with the dollar in '81, and started getting real about it in '94.
There are a lot of differences with China. For example, China produces a lot of goods locally where Argentina "can't" produce a reliable refrigerator... and depends on a lot of foreign components in every industry.
Argentina, obviously, produces some high quality goods but in another scale.
Argentina, obviously, produces some high quality goods but in another scale.
Some European countries have tax around 60% and VAT over 20%...
But you don't need to rely on private health, private security, and private education there. The taxes in those countries have a counterpart.
In less developed parts you do.
Most people here have gun, since it takes about 1 hour for police to show up. Local hospital sucks (once they forget scalpel inside patient) so most people pay bribes to get better hospital. And there is school here, but I would not dare to send my kids there.
I think "people just give up" well describes situation here.
Most people here have gun, since it takes about 1 hour for police to show up. Local hospital sucks (once they forget scalpel inside patient) so most people pay bribes to get better hospital. And there is school here, but I would not dare to send my kids there.
I think "people just give up" well describes situation here.
What country are you talking about? In Argentina the issue happens in the whole country not in some specific places.
Serbia? Wikipedia says it has:
- 20% VAT rate
- Roughly 60% marginal payroll taxes for highest earners (including both employee-paid income tax and employer-paid payroll taxes)
- 58 guns per capita in 2007
- 20% VAT rate
- Roughly 60% marginal payroll taxes for highest earners (including both employee-paid income tax and employer-paid payroll taxes)
- 58 guns per capita in 2007
Wikipedia is wrong regarding taxes.
In Serbia everyone counts salary in after tax amounts, not before tax like in most of the Western world. For example you get paid 1 RSD netto, and employer pay 0.6 RSD in tax, health and retirement insurance combined. Tax is the least amount there.
Calculated by western standards that would mean ~35-40% of the gross salary take away for tax, health and retirement contribution. Still much, but comparing to other countries it's not that bad.
Regarding 58 guns per capita? It's ridiculous, that would mean that every 4 member family would need a dedicated gun storage. It's not USA.
20% VAT is higher rate. For basic needs like food, drugs and electricity VAT is only 10%.
In Serbia everyone counts salary in after tax amounts, not before tax like in most of the Western world. For example you get paid 1 RSD netto, and employer pay 0.6 RSD in tax, health and retirement insurance combined. Tax is the least amount there.
Calculated by western standards that would mean ~35-40% of the gross salary take away for tax, health and retirement contribution. Still much, but comparing to other countries it's not that bad.
Regarding 58 guns per capita? It's ridiculous, that would mean that every 4 member family would need a dedicated gun storage. It's not USA.
20% VAT is higher rate. For basic needs like food, drugs and electricity VAT is only 10%.
>Regarding 58 guns per capita? It's ridiculous, that would mean that every 4 member family would need a dedicated gun storage. It's not USA.
I assume they meant per 100 citizens, which would be 0.58 guns per capita. This is the figure Wikipedia gives; second in the world after the US at 89 per 100.
Remember that many gun owners own multiple weapons.
I assume they meant per 100 citizens, which would be 0.58 guns per capita. This is the figure Wikipedia gives; second in the world after the US at 89 per 100.
Remember that many gun owners own multiple weapons.
Oops. Yes, I should have read the column headings.
...and Agentina has an unemployment rate of 6.8 (with the highest salaries of the region) against 10.9 of european union (26,7 in spain, and 12.5 of italy).
Sources:
Just google "unemployment rate of xxxx" (argentina, spain, italy).
Sources:
Just google "unemployment rate of xxxx" (argentina, spain, italy).
The definition of "unemployment" in Argentina is a joke. If you worked for any length of time during the past year, you're not considered unemployed. Same goes if you're getting an unemployment check.
The definition of "unemployment" everywhere is a joke. The best number is the prime-age (25-54) employment rate.
Do you know that what is considered unemployment in Europe is what in Argentina is called unemployment and underemployment[2]? The sum of unemployment and underemployment in Argentina is 15.57% [1].
[1]: http://www.indec.mecon.ar/nuevaweb/cuadros/4/sh_eph_continua...
[2]: http://www.indec.mecon.ar/nuevaweb/cuadros/4/metempleo1.pdf
[1]: http://www.indec.mecon.ar/nuevaweb/cuadros/4/sh_eph_continua...
[2]: http://www.indec.mecon.ar/nuevaweb/cuadros/4/metempleo1.pdf
After a century of failing to manage its economy, Argentina continues to fail to manage its economy.
In other news, water is wet.
In other news, water is wet.
Yeap, holy shit did I pick a good time to leave.
It’s good to point out that a G8 country like Italy is going about the same way as Argentina. Those 2 countries are extremely connected, Argentina’s Italian descends today might be as much as 60% of the whole population. As Italian, I am not trying to stick yet another stereotype to us, but this is an interesting fact after all and it says a lot about the future of Italy too if you ask me.
edit O yeah, and Europe too, it says a lot about the future of Europe too
edit O yeah, and Europe too, it says a lot about the future of Europe too
I live in Argentina and _I bought pesos at 11.665_ on the dollar yesterday. Today it's closing in on the 12 mark, at 11.85.
Lately, the Argentinean peso has been plummeting in value. Yesterday the official peso dropped with a rate that hadn't been seen in 5 years.
The government converts USD, if I were to place them in my bank, to the official peso. They don't sell USD, though. So I would never get real USD if I were to use my bank account in Argentina. That currency currently sits at 6.89, over 70% below the real value.
Now they're attempting to limit online shopping to, get this, TWICE _per year_.
This makes me want to flee the country.
Lately, the Argentinean peso has been plummeting in value. Yesterday the official peso dropped with a rate that hadn't been seen in 5 years.
The government converts USD, if I were to place them in my bank, to the official peso. They don't sell USD, though. So I would never get real USD if I were to use my bank account in Argentina. That currency currently sits at 6.89, over 70% below the real value.
Now they're attempting to limit online shopping to, get this, TWICE _per year_.
This makes me want to flee the country.
I've left the country exactly a year ago.
There's no legal way of leaving the country with your savings. You're unable to exchange your savings legally as the only concept that the AFIP (local IRS) accepts for exchanging is exports. I know, I checked every possible avenue. The people you talk to's attitude ranges from apologetic, passing through not-give-a-shit reaching abuse.
Luckily for me, I didn't have any big savings, not really, but if you have a house/car/anything (IE, have roots) and you sell it you're royally fucked. Even if you exchange in the black market you cannot leave the country with more than USD 10K per person, and if you do and get caught in either Argentina or destination country, it'll get confiscated in its entirety. And once you've arrived to a country with USD 10K, you have to exchange it to the local currency (let's say EUR). But now you have EUR 7380 in cash that no bank will touch with a 10 foot pole because almost no other country in the world disallows it's citizens from doing bank transfers, so that money is suspected of being laundered.
On top of all this, you can use your credit card outside of the country, with a 35% tax to every purchase, with a monthly top, so if you're left with pesos, as I was, you can start chipping away at the meager pesos savings bit by bit. But then you have to keep in mind the incredible inflation rate that the peso has[1][2] of over 28% for 2014[3](3.38% in a month!).
[1]: http://imgur.com/va1o1C1
[2]: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AuNh4LTzbqXMdFJ...
[3]: http://www.infobae.com/2014/01/14/1537019-la-inflacion-congr...
There's no legal way of leaving the country with your savings. You're unable to exchange your savings legally as the only concept that the AFIP (local IRS) accepts for exchanging is exports. I know, I checked every possible avenue. The people you talk to's attitude ranges from apologetic, passing through not-give-a-shit reaching abuse.
Luckily for me, I didn't have any big savings, not really, but if you have a house/car/anything (IE, have roots) and you sell it you're royally fucked. Even if you exchange in the black market you cannot leave the country with more than USD 10K per person, and if you do and get caught in either Argentina or destination country, it'll get confiscated in its entirety. And once you've arrived to a country with USD 10K, you have to exchange it to the local currency (let's say EUR). But now you have EUR 7380 in cash that no bank will touch with a 10 foot pole because almost no other country in the world disallows it's citizens from doing bank transfers, so that money is suspected of being laundered.
On top of all this, you can use your credit card outside of the country, with a 35% tax to every purchase, with a monthly top, so if you're left with pesos, as I was, you can start chipping away at the meager pesos savings bit by bit. But then you have to keep in mind the incredible inflation rate that the peso has[1][2] of over 28% for 2014[3](3.38% in a month!).
[1]: http://imgur.com/va1o1C1
[2]: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AuNh4LTzbqXMdFJ...
[3]: http://www.infobae.com/2014/01/14/1537019-la-inflacion-congr...
"you cannot leave the country with more than USD 10K per person, and if you do and get caught in either Argentina or destination country, it'll get confiscated in its entirety"
I don't know if it's different because I was coming from a different country but I arrived once in the US with more than $10k, I just declared it and filled out a form.
I don't know if it's different because I was coming from a different country but I arrived once in the US with more than $10k, I just declared it and filled out a form.
You're right, and it seems like in both the US[1] and Europe[2] you can enter with more than that, all you have to do is declare it.
In Argentina you cannot enter or leave with more than USD 10K[3], declared or undeclared except through a financial or banking institution, which in effect cannot move money abroad.
[1]: http://getawaytips.azcentral.com/amount-currency-can-bring-p...
[2]: http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/common/travellers/enter...
[3]: http://www.afip.gov.ar/turismo/equipaje.asp
"Los pasajeros y tripulantes mayores de 21 años podrán retirar del país, metales preciosos, billetes y monedas extranjeras por montos superiores a u$s 10.000 o su equivalente en otras monedas, sólo a través de ENTIDADES FINANCIERAS Y CAMBIARIAS, con las respectivas autorizaciones."
In Argentina you cannot enter or leave with more than USD 10K[3], declared or undeclared except through a financial or banking institution, which in effect cannot move money abroad.
[1]: http://getawaytips.azcentral.com/amount-currency-can-bring-p...
[2]: http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/common/travellers/enter...
[3]: http://www.afip.gov.ar/turismo/equipaje.asp
"Los pasajeros y tripulantes mayores de 21 años podrán retirar del país, metales preciosos, billetes y monedas extranjeras por montos superiores a u$s 10.000 o su equivalente en otras monedas, sólo a través de ENTIDADES FINANCIERAS Y CAMBIARIAS, con las respectivas autorizaciones."