India creating new identity card system for 1.2Bn people(economist.com)
economist.com
India creating new identity card system for 1.2Bn people
http://www.economist.com/world/asia/displaystory.cfm?story_id=13962574
36 comments
Wow, they are going to be the first country to self-consciously grapple with all kinds of fascinating privacy issues that emerge from this kind of system. In most countries, as far as I know, privacy depends on the crappiness of government IT and the difficulty of systems integration. It's mostly accidental. In a powerful, well-designed system, you have to decide to have privacy. This is an exciting prospect -- India is by far not the worst country to be investigating these issues. They are democratic and are familiar with the problems of corrupt officials. I think people in countries where corruption is not a problem are too willing to trust the good intentions of their government officials. It's very educational to see how ruthless and venal people are when systems are not in place to stop them.
I live in India & I agree - there is horrendous amount of corruption. And the unique identification number project might not change anything when it comes to illegal immigrants, terrorists.
However as the article highlights this would give me one power for which I am okay to bear the grunt of privacy issues: I can (at least proactively) ensure my identity is not misused & if it is, I can at least be aware of it - stop it & probably dig in more.
Right now I have a ration card which is particularly necessary to get a cooking gas connection (which btw is of scarce availability - again corruption). There might be a person living at my native or hometown who is aware I am not availing the facility and probably using a duplicate card or something. There is no system to quickly check if this is happening. With the new initiative I hope it would be difficult to duplicate & easy to track. At the least these processes will get digitized the right way, given Nilekani is heading it & not yet another uneducated/ corrupt politician.
Edit: phrase correction.
However as the article highlights this would give me one power for which I am okay to bear the grunt of privacy issues: I can (at least proactively) ensure my identity is not misused & if it is, I can at least be aware of it - stop it & probably dig in more.
Right now I have a ration card which is particularly necessary to get a cooking gas connection (which btw is of scarce availability - again corruption). There might be a person living at my native or hometown who is aware I am not availing the facility and probably using a duplicate card or something. There is no system to quickly check if this is happening. With the new initiative I hope it would be difficult to duplicate & easy to track. At the least these processes will get digitized the right way, given Nilekani is heading it & not yet another uneducated/ corrupt politician.
Edit: phrase correction.
> Right now I have a ration card which is particularly necessary to get a cooking gas connection
Let me suggest that your problem is not the lack of an ID card but rationing.
Let me suggest that your problem is not the lack of an ID card but rationing.
[deleted]
My problem is the misuse of facilities that is happening in the country where I live.
If you disagree please tell me why. not blindly down vote.
I avoided being rude for a "suggestion" which was not solicited nor rational let alone appropriate.
I avoided being rude for a "suggestion" which was not solicited nor rational let alone appropriate.
I didn't downvote you, but my suggestion was both rational and appropriate. Identifying the actual problem is always a good idea.
As to whether it was solicited, commenting in HN is a request for comments. That's what the reply link means.
As to whether it was solicited, commenting in HN is a request for comments. That's what the reply link means.
I'm curious which countries your are thinking of where government corruption is not a problem?
In the US, citizens don't have to pay bribes, perhaps with the exception of getting government business. You don't have to pay bribes to get a marriage license, get a crime investigated, get your garbage collected, get fair treatment in court, or get your child admitted to a good school.
Larger-scale, more obscure corruption thrives. Everybody knows that most political campaign contributions are made with the expectation of a return on investment. If you're an ordinary citizen, though, you don't have to worry about being shaken down by a bureaucrat or a traffic cop.
Larger-scale, more obscure corruption thrives. Everybody knows that most political campaign contributions are made with the expectation of a return on investment. If you're an ordinary citizen, though, you don't have to worry about being shaken down by a bureaucrat or a traffic cop.
Just as important as the factual lack of pervasive bribery is the lack of the expectation of pervasive bribery.
I took a group of Indian engineers to the immigration office (Japan) to get some paperwork done, once. The particular type of paperwork they needed has a $40 filing fee.
"So Patrick, how much does [the paperwork] cost?"
"There is a [$40] filing fee."
"Right, and how much will the clerk want? Maybe I should ask for it instead of you. I can pretend to be a poor Indian, you are wearing a business suit so he'll surely want more."
My mind vapor locked for about half a minute there. I mean, you know in a theoretical sense that bribery happens in Western democracies, but you certainly don't expect it to ever hit your daily life. I grew up in Chicago, which is about as corrupt as America gets, and the notion of paying extra for e.g. a driver's license a) wouldn't occur to me to try and b) would bring down an administration if it were discovered (it has in Illinois).
Incidentally, the Japanese immigration office doesn't take money directly for the forms. You go over to someone who sells revenue stamps, buy a stamp, and affix it to your form. This is a brilliant centuries-old hack design specifically to make corruption difficult -- because money doesn't normally change hands between the applicant and person with decisionmaking authority, there is no opportunity for the clerk to pocket the fees and there is no chance that "a little extra" on top of the fees would go unnoticed.
I took a group of Indian engineers to the immigration office (Japan) to get some paperwork done, once. The particular type of paperwork they needed has a $40 filing fee.
"So Patrick, how much does [the paperwork] cost?"
"There is a [$40] filing fee."
"Right, and how much will the clerk want? Maybe I should ask for it instead of you. I can pretend to be a poor Indian, you are wearing a business suit so he'll surely want more."
My mind vapor locked for about half a minute there. I mean, you know in a theoretical sense that bribery happens in Western democracies, but you certainly don't expect it to ever hit your daily life. I grew up in Chicago, which is about as corrupt as America gets, and the notion of paying extra for e.g. a driver's license a) wouldn't occur to me to try and b) would bring down an administration if it were discovered (it has in Illinois).
Incidentally, the Japanese immigration office doesn't take money directly for the forms. You go over to someone who sells revenue stamps, buy a stamp, and affix it to your form. This is a brilliant centuries-old hack design specifically to make corruption difficult -- because money doesn't normally change hands between the applicant and person with decisionmaking authority, there is no opportunity for the clerk to pocket the fees and there is no chance that "a little extra" on top of the fees would go unnoticed.
It is not just the basic facilities. Corruption hits in a lot of other ways also.
The traffic sucks because most traffic police are jerking off somewhere. If you want to get something done (e.g. setup a business) you should know someone with influence. A new risk in big cities is if you own a land there is a risk of the property being forcibly occupied by a thug and the police wouldn't do much.
The traffic sucks because most traffic police are jerking off somewhere. If you want to get something done (e.g. setup a business) you should know someone with influence. A new risk in big cities is if you own a land there is a risk of the property being forcibly occupied by a thug and the police wouldn't do much.
Ambani(Relience fame) built an empire in the same country where you live in. Don't blame the system.
If you read the comment properly - I am not blaming the system. Only pointing the current ills in it and hoping he UID scheme cuts down at least some of them.
I'm curious which countries your are thinking of where government corruption is not a problem?
It is less of a problem in some countries than others, by more than an order of magnitude. Transparency International is one organization that publishes studies of corruption in different countries.
http://www.transparency.org/news_room/in_focus/2008/gcr2008
It is less of a problem in some countries than others, by more than an order of magnitude. Transparency International is one organization that publishes studies of corruption in different countries.
http://www.transparency.org/news_room/in_focus/2008/gcr2008
I concur, it is a natural force. We have an instruction that says, "let's see how far we can take this" until some force or law stops us.
Think of something crazy to do right now... someone has done it. Because they took it too far.
"No man is good enough to govern another man without that other's consent. " -Abraham Lincoln
Think of something crazy to do right now... someone has done it. Because they took it too far.
"No man is good enough to govern another man without that other's consent. " -Abraham Lincoln
I had predicted here ( http://cycle-gap.blogspot.com/2009/06/all-honourable-men.htm... ):
"As the good old days of inflated head counts and billing rates comes to an end for Indian outsourcing companies, the big outsourcing companies will bid for, and push for huge local government projects."
It's amazing how uncritically such huge projects are treated by the press in India - privacy issues, potential conflict of interest for the person leading this effort (Nilekani). Public discussion in India in general is very worshipful of proposals like this or the usage of voting machines - there is little to no discussion of the meta issues like privacy, corruption, etc.
"As the good old days of inflated head counts and billing rates comes to an end for Indian outsourcing companies, the big outsourcing companies will bid for, and push for huge local government projects."
It's amazing how uncritically such huge projects are treated by the press in India - privacy issues, potential conflict of interest for the person leading this effort (Nilekani). Public discussion in India in general is very worshipful of proposals like this or the usage of voting machines - there is little to no discussion of the meta issues like privacy, corruption, etc.
Nilekani is the current CEO of Infosys. He has already stated he is going to step down from Infosys before taking up the effort to create an India wide UID. Bidding for this mega project will be an international one, with some Israeli companies already showing interest (in addition to Indian majors like Infosys, TCS, Wipro...).
So the question is not as much as about conflict of interest as it is about the success of the project. This will be the third such attempt - Seshan's voter ID, the PAN card and now the UID.
From anti-corruption point of view, this is really going to be helpful. Any government aid etc can be tracked using the UID (i.e. to see who the beneficiary was). Currently a majority of such funds are eaten up by the politicians and bureaucrats. So perhaps that will get reduced. As a state, India is currently a failure: perhaps the UID will help make some ammends.
The implementation is going to be a challenge - currently there are options that are doing rounds: a smart card approach or using a mobile sim card (a govt reserved security domain in every sim card - the sim ID can act as a proxy for UID).
So the question is not as much as about conflict of interest as it is about the success of the project. This will be the third such attempt - Seshan's voter ID, the PAN card and now the UID.
From anti-corruption point of view, this is really going to be helpful. Any government aid etc can be tracked using the UID (i.e. to see who the beneficiary was). Currently a majority of such funds are eaten up by the politicians and bureaucrats. So perhaps that will get reduced. As a state, India is currently a failure: perhaps the UID will help make some ammends.
The implementation is going to be a challenge - currently there are options that are doing rounds: a smart card approach or using a mobile sim card (a govt reserved security domain in every sim card - the sim ID can act as a proxy for UID).
Actually he has long stepped down as a CEO of Infosys. He, however, continued to wield the title of co-chairman until now.
He has resigned now.
> From anti-corruption point of view, this is really going to be helpful. Any government aid etc can be tracked using the UID (i.e. to see who the beneficiary was). Currently a majority of such funds are eaten up by the politicians and bureaucrats. So perhaps that will get reduced.
"perhaps"? That's your plan? Hope is not a plan.
Unless Indian pols,grifters, and the like are significantly less competent than American ones, an ID card won't have any effect on corruption, waste of govt aid, and so on.
"perhaps"? That's your plan? Hope is not a plan.
Unless Indian pols,grifters, and the like are significantly less competent than American ones, an ID card won't have any effect on corruption, waste of govt aid, and so on.
And you have quoted Nilekani, what more would do you expect. You need to appreciate he is taking this up giving up a definitely more profitable & less frustrating job of heading an IT major.
Given this is not a no-brainer job and involves utilizing technology efficiently whoever would fit the bill would have some past associations which might conflict. And real business people know how to keep them separate.
And for the meta issues I would believe the team responsible are more informed & concerned of it than any of us would be.
Media in India is wrongly influencing us to doubt everything and vehemently debate every issue as if we are the experts in that area. I agree to some extent it is necessary to question to control corruption and such. Doing it just for the sake of TRP is bad for the country than the question being raised.
Given this is not a no-brainer job and involves utilizing technology efficiently whoever would fit the bill would have some past associations which might conflict. And real business people know how to keep them separate.
And for the meta issues I would believe the team responsible are more informed & concerned of it than any of us would be.
Media in India is wrongly influencing us to doubt everything and vehemently debate every issue as if we are the experts in that area. I agree to some extent it is necessary to question to control corruption and such. Doing it just for the sake of TRP is bad for the country than the question being raised.
The notion of profit depends entirely on what you're trying to achieve.
In this case, perhaps it's political power without the tedium of going to the polls... EU style.
In this case, perhaps it's political power without the tedium of going to the polls... EU style.
agree. but it is definitely not for political power. If he wanted to I think he probably had a good chance to win standing for MP elections in Bangalore.
I guess getting the political power was more of necessity here because without that authority things might not move among bureaucrats & probably also to be commanding to ensure there is no infiltration of evil influences of other ministers in the system.
I guess getting the political power was more of necessity here because without that authority things might not move among bureaucrats & probably also to be commanding to ensure there is no infiltration of evil influences of other ministers in the system.
That is how it always starts, a megalomaniac "reluctantly" and "temporarily" taking power for the good of the people.
There has to be good balance and checks introduced in the system. Perhaps even make it open source, after all it is a public work. This way, there will be no room for problems such as voting machines rigging ( http://news.rediff.com/report/2009/jul/04/was-election-2009-... )
I don't consider open source to be a panacea but w.r.t. government programs, I think it is an option that should be actively considered.
I don't consider open source to be a panacea but w.r.t. government programs, I think it is an option that should be actively considered.
I don't really see how this is a bad thing. The government will not use these cards to track you or anything. It's just a universal ID card. Proving that you exist is a big problem back here, mostly because everyone has their own definition of "proof of identity". If one universal proof of identity exists, you can just show the middle finger to anybody who makes you jump through bureaucratic hoops.
The ID in and of itself is not a bad thing. However, there needs to be a full and thorough discussion of the issues such as privacy, duplication, theft etc.
From what I can see, this scheme seems similar to SSN's in the US, and using them as an example, you can easily see how the aforementioned issues can come into play.
IMO, there needs to be a rigorous debate in the media about this scheme and also a detailed explanation from the government on how they plan to address these concerns.
Knowing what Indian Media is like I would rather not want this to be debated. Given Nilekani is heading it and the fact that the government is actively working to bring in any relevant person or advise I would assume they would do a good job of analysis the pros and cons and the feasibility of it in a country like India.
Things have to start - we cannot keep debating. I understand revising or doing it again is costly in India. But whatever the current investment into this pays of in just one use of this - ensuring the facilities are not misused. I bet there is more money people are shelling out in bribes as a whole to misuse than what is required to prevent it. One investment of govt I would not complain about even if I have to pay a nominal fee for it or raise funds.
Things have to start - we cannot keep debating. I understand revising or doing it again is costly in India. But whatever the current investment into this pays of in just one use of this - ensuring the facilities are not misused. I bet there is more money people are shelling out in bribes as a whole to misuse than what is required to prevent it. One investment of govt I would not complain about even if I have to pay a nominal fee for it or raise funds.
> The government will not use these cards to track you or anything.
While there are some instances where a govt has resisted the temptation to use technology to its fullest for its own interests, the majority are limited only by their competence.
It will be used for tracking because it can be used for tracking and that's one thing that govt folk like to do.
While there are some instances where a govt has resisted the temptation to use technology to its fullest for its own interests, the majority are limited only by their competence.
It will be used for tracking because it can be used for tracking and that's one thing that govt folk like to do.
ID cards are a bad idea everywhere. Loss of privacy; loss of the presumption of innocence. Being required to produce the card by aggressive cops. Corruption and collusion between fat cats and government.
The cards will be hacked and sold on the black market almost immediately upon being released (if that ever happens -- it probably won't even after billions of rupees have been spent). Hence they'd make ID fraud and terrorism easier, not harder.
The article mentions 20 different forms of ID which are currently recognised. This sounds better to me. Historians, for example, prefer several pieces of evidence which can be cross-referenced to support a story rather than just one piece.
Just as it's not a good idea to allow private companies to collect data on people without their explicit consent, so it's a bad idea to let the government do so. Actually, it's an important check on government power not to let this happen. And I think many politicans involved in such schemes realise that ID projects won't reach completion. They either think it's a neat and simple idea, or in the worst cases they're out to build empires and make profit for their 'friends'.
The cards will be hacked and sold on the black market almost immediately upon being released (if that ever happens -- it probably won't even after billions of rupees have been spent). Hence they'd make ID fraud and terrorism easier, not harder.
The article mentions 20 different forms of ID which are currently recognised. This sounds better to me. Historians, for example, prefer several pieces of evidence which can be cross-referenced to support a story rather than just one piece.
Just as it's not a good idea to allow private companies to collect data on people without their explicit consent, so it's a bad idea to let the government do so. Actually, it's an important check on government power not to let this happen. And I think many politicans involved in such schemes realise that ID projects won't reach completion. They either think it's a neat and simple idea, or in the worst cases they're out to build empires and make profit for their 'friends'.
The article includes a good discussion of the governmental issues involved in implementing this plan in India. I'd love to see links to articles about this from the Indian press.
Opinion piece in the Times of India: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Opinion/Columnists/SA-Aiy...
Instead of wasting(http://tr.im/pX87) 10,000 crores tax payers money on this UID project they could have issued PASSPORTS to all Indians at a nominal fee of 10 rupees.
No the allotment is only 100 crore in the first year.
For a project of this scale the India Govt. has allocated just above 20 million $ (100 Crore in India). Not sure what to say.
1.2 Billion cards? They better not use a smallint as a primary key then