EU citizenship for sale(presseurop.eu)
presseurop.eu
EU citizenship for sale
http://www.presseurop.eu/en/content/news-brief/4315681-eu-citizenship-sale
70 comments
>We'll really fix this though when the circumstances of your birth don't dictate where you are expected to live, work, or play.
It would be nice to live in your Utopia.
It would be nice to live in your Utopia.
> The EU was founded on the principle that free movement of people, goods, and services is a net win for society...
...within a gated community that encloses those who pay the access fee.
While free roaming would be a net win for society, the currently advantaged part of society does not feel like sharing much.
...within a gated community that encloses those who pay the access fee.
While free roaming would be a net win for society, the currently advantaged part of society does not feel like sharing much.
It's not exclusive to the rich/advantaged. IMHO the biggest opposition to unrestricted immigration in richer countries comes from workers, because "they're taking our jobs". Just look at the H1B mess in the US for an example (where a lot of company managers/owners want to bring in more foreigners, not fewer).
EDIT: Maybe I misinterpreted, your post reads like "the rich are preventing free movement". I want to point out that anyone who has a well-paid job is "advantaged", not just rich people.
EDIT: Maybe I misinterpreted, your post reads like "the rich are preventing free movement". I want to point out that anyone who has a well-paid job is "advantaged", not just rich people.
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>the currently advantaged part of society does not feel like sharing much.
There is no country on Earth that has unfettered access, and unconditional citizenship - rich or poor.
There is no country on Earth that has unfettered access, and unconditional citizenship - rich or poor.
Latvian banks have a residence program for 300K EUR:
https://www.rietumu.lv/en/residence-permit
As long as the money is kept in a term deposit, "upon expiry of the term of residence permit investors and their family members are eligible to apply for the renewal."
After some years one can apply for naturalization and gain full Latvian citizenship.
https://www.rietumu.lv/en/residence-permit
As long as the money is kept in a term deposit, "upon expiry of the term of residence permit investors and their family members are eligible to apply for the renewal."
After some years one can apply for naturalization and gain full Latvian citizenship.
Residence programs are more common, but to take advantage of them you have to actually take up residence in the country, physically living there as your main residence. Then you must live in the country as a law-abiding, productive citizen for typically 3 to 8 years (depending on the country) before you can naturalize and get a passport. You may also be required to take a language and civics exam to do so. This at least ensures some connection between the passport holder and the country.
Direct cash-for-passport schemes for someone who's never lived in the country are much rarer. Afaik, in the EU currently, only Austria sort-of has one, and it's not explicit. Like many countries, Austria can grant special-case citizenship to people who've rendered extraordinary services to Austria, but unlike most other countries, this includes not only scientific achievement and the like, but also a handful of very rich people each year, who negotiate through intermediaries a grant of citizenship in return for either a large donation, or a large investment. Mainly people from Dubai and similar places, who don't want to move to the EU (and therefore can't use the residency schemes), but do want an EU passport for travel or future-proofing purposes. The price isn't disclosed, but rumors have it that it's a lot higher than €650k, more in the €2m+ range for donations or €10m+ for investments.
Direct cash-for-passport schemes for someone who's never lived in the country are much rarer. Afaik, in the EU currently, only Austria sort-of has one, and it's not explicit. Like many countries, Austria can grant special-case citizenship to people who've rendered extraordinary services to Austria, but unlike most other countries, this includes not only scientific achievement and the like, but also a handful of very rich people each year, who negotiate through intermediaries a grant of citizenship in return for either a large donation, or a large investment. Mainly people from Dubai and similar places, who don't want to move to the EU (and therefore can't use the residency schemes), but do want an EU passport for travel or future-proofing purposes. The price isn't disclosed, but rumors have it that it's a lot higher than €650k, more in the €2m+ range for donations or €10m+ for investments.
How many law-abiding, productive people generate €650,000 in positive externalities in 3-8 years?
This looks like a win-win to me.
This looks like a win-win to me.
This is completely meaningless and unimportant. Unfortunately, real people don't generally act like the "economic man" you (and I) learned about in Econ 101. Real people value social ties and community, even when the dollar value of those things is quite low. Citizenship, especially for small countries, is a form of community. Selling access to that community to outsiders who may not respect the social norms and values of the community is therefore objectionable to many people.
It's completely meaningless and unimportant that there are real, concrete, benefits because some -- but evidently not a majority of voters -- admittedly irrational people have their inchoate feelings hurt?
€650,000 can go towards education, social safety net programs, or a variety of other worthy causes, but the important thing is the feelings of rank nationalists who are upset that their precious citizenship cum identity is terribly diluted by being sold rather than being acquired by falling out of the right vagina. Because after all there is requirement that a natural born citizen participate in the "community".
€650,000 can go towards education, social safety net programs, or a variety of other worthy causes, but the important thing is the feelings of rank nationalists who are upset that their precious citizenship cum identity is terribly diluted by being sold rather than being acquired by falling out of the right vagina. Because after all there is requirement that a natural born citizen participate in the "community".
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Interesting. I always assumed that as part of the Schengen Agreement there was some kind of minimum requirement for naturalizing foreigners. Given that apparently there isn't, I'm actually quite surprised that some small country hasn't tried this before.
I'm broadly against immigration to the EU, and 650k is a bit low, but in general, this is the best way to go about it. We're getting people who really want to get in, who demonstrably can contribute and won't be a burden on the system. Also, not too many.
You'll get a lot of Russian mobsters that way, buying their way in and buying property to get a foot in the EU door.
Yeah, I would guess there is relatively little overlap between the kinds of people willing and able to pay €650k for a passport, and those who have productive skills the EU is currently in need of. The EU needs more middle-class skilled labor, basically, ranging from skilled blue-collar workers to educated professionals. It doesn't really need Dubai sheikhs or Russian mobsters looking for a passport of convenience.
Would it really be a problem if all of Russia just joined the EU?
Russian mobsters have already bought their way in, and for a lot more money than 650K.
If you have enough money you can buy your way into any country.
If you have enough money you can buy your way into any country.
If anything, having 650k available to invest like this suggests ability to exploit, not contribute.
In theory, its up to the government to ensure that you can only make money through positive means. Thus if you have money, its assumed it was earned by contributing to the economy in someway.
>Also, not too many.
I think it's already too late for that.
I think it's already too late for that.
Sure, you could come at it from the other side too: people who are poor and a drain on the system can be stripped of citizenship and deported.
Can you explain why you're against immigration to the EU? I've just arrived in Berlin, so it's relevant to me.
Obviously, the riots, car burning, head chopping... the kind of stuff you'd see on the news. But more importantly in the long run, it simply doesn't work, much like many of the immigrants who come here. See Malmö for example[1] where "the majority of foreign born working age adults do not work." That, and every other indicator makes for a bleak picture of immigration.
[1] http://super-economy.blogspot.com/2013/05/malmo-case-study-i...
[1] http://super-economy.blogspot.com/2013/05/malmo-case-study-i...
If you're going to read the "facts" stated in the linked article, be sure to read the comments which refutes the whole article.
See Malmö for example[1] where "the majority of foreign born working age adults do not work."
That's not what the data really says. Think, how does the SCB know if people are working? Do they follow them around? No, they only know what people tell them. So what that data shows is that less than the majority of foreign born adults declare that they're working. Now I'm sure you can think of a few reasons why a poor immigrant would have to not declare that s/he's working.
That's not what the data really says. Think, how does the SCB know if people are working? Do they follow them around? No, they only know what people tell them. So what that data shows is that less than the majority of foreign born adults declare that they're working. Now I'm sure you can think of a few reasons why a poor immigrant would have to not declare that s/he's working.
That's not the long run, that's just 20-60 years. Look at the US where 99% of the population is immigrants. We're not doing too badly, are we?
Off the top of my head, Rodney King and Trayvon Martin/George Zimmerman come up as recent counter-examples. The US isn't really a peaceful utopia of human diversity, anymore than any other country.
I've done the same, it was just over a year ago. I've seen separatists (from the EU), people who want to abolish the Euro, and more. If someone wants each country to have different currencies why stop there? Berlin area is much poorer than the rest of Germany, why not give Berlin a separate currency too? Because these people are racist. It's true!
I try and tell people, I'm a skilled software developer, what Germany needs right now. And when was the last time a Canadian showed up in Europe and started causing a problem? Immigration is tiered based firstly on country of origin and wealth, not on skills.
I find it a little bit offensive that EU residency is just one more thing the wealthy can now buy. But on the other hand it was inevitable and was already largely the case. For less than $650k if you have a good immigration lawyer.
I try and tell people, I'm a skilled software developer, what Germany needs right now. And when was the last time a Canadian showed up in Europe and started causing a problem? Immigration is tiered based firstly on country of origin and wealth, not on skills.
I find it a little bit offensive that EU residency is just one more thing the wealthy can now buy. But on the other hand it was inevitable and was already largely the case. For less than $650k if you have a good immigration lawyer.
Berlin area is much poorer than the rest of Germany, why not give Berlin a separate currency too?
If you'll read up on currency theory, you'll find some people have proposed pretty much exactly this (Jane Jacobs comes to mind, probably in Cities and the Wealth of Nations, it's been a few decades since I've last read it).
More generally: with a sovereign currency, a country controls both its monetary and fiscal policy, and can make its own allocation decisions with both. Which means it can set monetary policy to benefit its industrial / manufacturing or other economic centers, and use fiscal policy to create wealth transfers to underdeveloped regions. This is effectively what happens in the United States, for example, through SSI, welfare, medicare, SNAP, and similar programs.
In the EU, you have a bifurcation of monetary policy (ECB) and fiscal policy (independent European states). This was pointed out by numerous early critics of the EMU, including rather notably Margaret Thatcher, in the late 1970s / early 1980s. Her comments then proved exceptionally prophetic.
If you'll read up on currency theory, you'll find some people have proposed pretty much exactly this (Jane Jacobs comes to mind, probably in Cities and the Wealth of Nations, it's been a few decades since I've last read it).
More generally: with a sovereign currency, a country controls both its monetary and fiscal policy, and can make its own allocation decisions with both. Which means it can set monetary policy to benefit its industrial / manufacturing or other economic centers, and use fiscal policy to create wealth transfers to underdeveloped regions. This is effectively what happens in the United States, for example, through SSI, welfare, medicare, SNAP, and similar programs.
In the EU, you have a bifurcation of monetary policy (ECB) and fiscal policy (independent European states). This was pointed out by numerous early critics of the EMU, including rather notably Margaret Thatcher, in the late 1970s / early 1980s. Her comments then proved exceptionally prophetic.
>I find it a little bit offensive that EU residency is just one more thing the wealthy can now buy.
Well, you could also be living in Pakistan or Somalia and apply for asylum which most likely will be granted to you with no money involved.
Well, you could also be living in Pakistan or Somalia and apply for asylum which most likely will be granted to you with no money involved.
"The Other" is scary.
$500K will grant you a US permanent residence: http://www.uscis.gov/green-card/green-card-through-job/green...
Every country does this in some way through "investment visas." Including the US. Malta's sale is just a bit more blatant.
Yes, AFAIK if you invest $1m+ to some U.S. company you get investment visa and free to live in U.S.
There is one difference though - U.S. is a country, so is Malta. But if you get citizenship of Malta you get citizenship of E.U. which means you can leave Malta behind and go to any country that is in E.U. Also, Visa is not really citizenship.
There is one difference though - U.S. is a country, so is Malta. But if you get citizenship of Malta you get citizenship of E.U. which means you can leave Malta behind and go to any country that is in E.U. Also, Visa is not really citizenship.
But that's still a visa. This is a full blown citizenship.
It's not a visa it's permanent residence: http://www.uscis.gov/green-card/green-card-through-job/green...
Fair enough, but it's still not a full blown citizenship.
After 5 years in the US with a green card you can become a full citizen.
Correct. Which is the reason why the two scenarios are different.
You may (not guaranteed) get a visa and green card. You do not receive citizenship (at least in the US, I am ignorant about other countries' investment visas.)
The US investment visa provides a GC and puts you on track to receive US citizenship.
http://www.uscis.gov/green-card/green-card-through-job/green...
You'd (eventually) have to live in the US, and wait several years for the passport, so it's not quite a cash-on-the-counter transaction like Malta. But it is similar in concept
You'd (eventually) have to live in the US, and wait several years for the passport, so it's not quite a cash-on-the-counter transaction like Malta. But it is similar in concept
Well, it's somewhat conditional. You can apply for citizenship after 5 years with a green card.
€30m at €650k a head = less than 50 people, no?
I guess the real problem is if this kicks off a "race to the bottom" among other cash-strapped EU members.
I guess the real problem is if this kicks off a "race to the bottom" among other cash-strapped EU members.
That's what I was thinking. Considering Russian, Chinese and Indian people, who consistently faced with getting multiple visas, demand will be massive. EU passport also allows you to go to UK and US(much easier comparing RU/CH/IN passports).
The idea that other EU countries will try to compete on price, to be honest intrigues me, as the outcomes might be unexpected. Probably EU will want regulate such thing.
The idea that other EU countries will try to compete on price, to be honest intrigues me, as the outcomes might be unexpected. Probably EU will want regulate such thing.
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(a) It hasn't become law yet.
(b) Lots of EU countries have (in some ways) liberal rules of citizenship.
* Ireland gives citizenship to anyone who's grandparent was Irish (even if you and both your parents have never set foot in Ireland).
* Bulgaria (EU) gives citzenship to Macedonians (non-EU).
* Romania (EU) gives citizenship to Moldovans (non-EU).
etc.
(b) Lots of EU countries have (in some ways) liberal rules of citizenship.
* Ireland gives citizenship to anyone who's grandparent was Irish (even if you and both your parents have never set foot in Ireland).
* Bulgaria (EU) gives citzenship to Macedonians (non-EU).
* Romania (EU) gives citizenship to Moldovans (non-EU).
etc.
Why would you pay almost a million dollars for citizenship? Honest question.
There are several reasons. Here are a few:
One, because wealthy people sometimes want 'dual citizenship' (which has to be kept a secret in the U.S.) because they feel like if things fall apart in one country, they can quickly escape to another.
Two, some business transactions require citizenship.
Three, some rights are only available with citizenship.
There are other reasons as well.
One, because wealthy people sometimes want 'dual citizenship' (which has to be kept a secret in the U.S.) because they feel like if things fall apart in one country, they can quickly escape to another.
Two, some business transactions require citizenship.
Three, some rights are only available with citizenship.
There are other reasons as well.
Dual citizenship does not need to be kept secret in the US.
Citizens of "poor" countries have great difficulty traveling internationally, even if they are personally wealthy. (Other countries may not grant them visas to enter, and may mistreat them at border crossings.) Maybe their home country isn't a very attractive or safe place to live any more. Etc. etc.
This comment below nails the answer https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6745568
For the same reason you back up your data.
There are alot of very rich people in countries with undemocratic governments, who would love to move to europe. Think the Middle East, India, China, ...
Because you're some horrible criminal from about anywhere out of Europe, wanting to escape the law strikes me as the most probable reason.
Or a rich person wanting to escape a horrible country(Government).
EU is not an asylum for criminals (actually is a terrible place for a criminal trying to secure his freedom, because it takes only one country to raise an 'european arrest warrant' afaik), for that reason mobsters are more likely settle in countries without extradition treaties to their country of activity, or some banana republic where it's easy to vanish.
we have jails in Europe
St. Kitts & Nevis has a similar program. It's a pretty good citizenship & passport for a $400,000 real estate purchase or $250,000 "investment"...
http://www.henleyglobal.com/countries/st-kitts-nevis/citizen...
http://www.henleyglobal.com/countries/st-kitts-nevis/citizen...
The truth is when you start looking into it, if you have money, you can live wherever you want.
> "The award of citizenship through the controversial scheme is expected to yield €30m for the public coffers..."
Well that seems like it might not be worth all the trouble.
Well that seems like it might not be worth all the trouble.
Malta's GDP is only 8.7 billion USD. €30m isn't too shabby.
Cyprus does something similar, you need to buy property worth a million and make a 300k donation to the government. Then you get your citizenship in a month. Of course you can sell the property after. Lots of Russians do this.
Same, a bit cheaper in Hungary (250K EUR)
http://www.akk.hu/object.E2A89FF4-D355-4173-9252-C8F50FD17F0...
This will really help with the anti-EU sentiment in Northern Europa.
650K is a low price for EU citizenship because it's being subsidized by the richer EU nations. Malta citizenship would be a lot less attractive.
650K is a low price for EU citizenship because it's being subsidized by the richer EU nations. Malta citizenship would be a lot less attractive.
We'll really fix this though when the circumstances of your birth don't dictate where you are expected to live, work, or play.
If you want to work in London for a couple years, then Sri Lanka, then Albuquerque, then Beijing, you should be able to do it, so long as you can afford the cost of living and appropriate taxes for the area.
Sure, some do this now, but you should be able to do this as a mechanic from Ghana, not just as an international business manager from Vermont with a trust fund.