Mistakes made and addressed(markshuttleworth.com)
markshuttleworth.com
Mistakes made and addressed
http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/1299
65 comments
> It is really just sad to see them selling out to Amazon like this, and I wish it didn't have to be this way.
I think many people confuse the smart scopes as "selling out to Amazon." The lenses integrate a bunch of online sources, some are commercial, some are not. You can try it by hitting the super key and doing something like `wiki:metallica` or `code:discourse` (which searches github for projects, etc.). There's something like 100 sources for information in the dash. Amazon is just one of them.
It's closer to something like Watson for the Mac or the integrated search in Android. Unfortunately people just assume that Ubuntu has "amazon spyware". If you don't like the integrated online search it's one switch to turn it off and Unity will revert to offline-only searches in the Dash.
I think many people confuse the smart scopes as "selling out to Amazon." The lenses integrate a bunch of online sources, some are commercial, some are not. You can try it by hitting the super key and doing something like `wiki:metallica` or `code:discourse` (which searches github for projects, etc.). There's something like 100 sources for information in the dash. Amazon is just one of them.
It's closer to something like Watson for the Mac or the integrated search in Android. Unfortunately people just assume that Ubuntu has "amazon spyware". If you don't like the integrated online search it's one switch to turn it off and Unity will revert to offline-only searches in the Dash.
How many of those sources have a "Buy for $x" button under them? And I don't necessarily want to send the context of searches for content on my own computer over the wire to Canonical's servers (especially these days).
I'm not saying the lens search is an awful thing for everyone. What I'm saying is that they should have the button set to "off" by default, let people know what is available to them, tell them about how it works, and then ask if they want it or not. That's it. That's all it would take.
But even if they do that... isn't it still like the Java installer asking you to install an Ask.com plugin or something? I mean... that's kinda the lowest of the low for free (as in beer) software. Searching Wikipedia and for .git repos online is one thing. Ads are different.
I'm not saying the lens search is an awful thing for everyone. What I'm saying is that they should have the button set to "off" by default, let people know what is available to them, tell them about how it works, and then ask if they want it or not. That's it. That's all it would take.
But even if they do that... isn't it still like the Java installer asking you to install an Ask.com plugin or something? I mean... that's kinda the lowest of the low for free (as in beer) software. Searching Wikipedia and for .git repos online is one thing. Ads are different.
Google Desktop Search did a lot of things right. This was one of them. After(?) the normal EULA text they would pop another one, something like:
READ THIS CAREFULLY, THIS IS NOT THE NORMAL YADDA-YADDA: If you enable Google Desktop Search this and this will happen, which is most likely what you want but you need to be aware of it. Do you want to enable?
READ THIS CAREFULLY, THIS IS NOT THE NORMAL YADDA-YADDA: If you enable Google Desktop Search this and this will happen, which is most likely what you want but you need to be aware of it. Do you want to enable?
And what happened? Google Desktop Search was discontinued in 2011.
> And I don't necessarily want to send the context of searches for content on my own computer over the wire to Canonical's servers (especially these days).
So why are you typing them in the global search tab of the dash? Use the applications tab if you want to search for local applications, or the files tab if you want to search for local file. Super+A and Super+F pulls them up quickly.
So why are you typing them in the global search tab of the dash? Use the applications tab if you want to search for local applications, or the files tab if you want to search for local file. Super+A and Super+F pulls them up quickly.
> The Unity lens is fundamentally fucked up.
Even if you are ok with it being opt-out, I think you would have to acknowledge that it isn't a very good business model. Linux users tend to be very conscious of their privacy rights.
Further even if you think it is ok to be opt-out, and think it is a legitimate way to monetize Linux users, you would acknowledge that Canonical have not handled any part of this story arch very well.
This has done more than enough damage, I think they should abandon it and find another way to fund their development.
They could win back a lot of support and sympathy with a mea culpa moment acknowledging at least one or more of: it wasn't a good idea, it wasn't implemented well, and we didn't handle the criticism properly.
Even if you are ok with it being opt-out, I think you would have to acknowledge that it isn't a very good business model. Linux users tend to be very conscious of their privacy rights.
Further even if you think it is ok to be opt-out, and think it is a legitimate way to monetize Linux users, you would acknowledge that Canonical have not handled any part of this story arch very well.
This has done more than enough damage, I think they should abandon it and find another way to fund their development.
They could win back a lot of support and sympathy with a mea culpa moment acknowledging at least one or more of: it wasn't a good idea, it wasn't implemented well, and we didn't handle the criticism properly.
I think the reason Canonical is running into so many problems here is that they are not really targeting your conventional Linux user. They're well and truly after the mainstream, but there are still these old-school Linux users clinging on without realizing that Ubuntu isn't really meant for them.
Exactly. To remain competitive, Ubuntu needs a global search feature much like iOS, Android, Windows, and OS X have. It's what non-technical users are expecting of a modern operating system. Sending the search result to a central server is required to implement this properly by adding voice recognition for mobile devices, and using data correlation and analysis on the server side to return appropriate and relevant results.
With users storing more and more data in the cloud, having a global search box that searches for a particular picture not only locally, but also in my Facebook account, my Ubuntu One, my Flickr, my Dropbox, and my Google+ just makes sense.
With users storing more and more data in the cloud, having a global search box that searches for a particular picture not only locally, but also in my Facebook account, my Ubuntu One, my Flickr, my Dropbox, and my Google+ just makes sense.
The danger with that approach is that Linux is not a mainstream product. It's come on leaps and bounds, and Ubuntu has been hugely responsible for the broadening of desktop linux's appeal, but it's still not mainstream. Windows is mainstream. OSX, some people have heard of, even fewer have tried. Linux is still very much the domain of us geeks, a group that a) is very willing to switch based on principle b) is very capable of switching c) understands how our privacy is being violated.
Canonical COULD get desktop Linux into the mainstream, and stand a better chance than anyone else of doing so, but this is a massive shot in the foot. I give Ubuntu about 6 months of sticking with this policy before they realise they're slowly, irretrievably losing most of their customers.
Canonical COULD get desktop Linux into the mainstream, and stand a better chance than anyone else of doing so, but this is a massive shot in the foot. I give Ubuntu about 6 months of sticking with this policy before they realise they're slowly, irretrievably losing most of their customers.
They've been at it for a lot longer than 6 months. The shopping lens was introduced a year ago. There was also the Unity controversy before that. Debian has never particularly liked them for various reasons.
I'd argue that if they are not going for the mainstream consumers (or enterprise), they might as well just close the company. For the reasons you mentioned, Linux users are quite high-maintenance and difficult to please. Evidence of this is how much Linux users tend to flame each other. I don't think Canonical really wants those extremely principled, very privacy-sensitive Linux geeks as customers. They would be behaving very differently to the criticism if they did.
I'd argue that if they are not going for the mainstream consumers (or enterprise), they might as well just close the company. For the reasons you mentioned, Linux users are quite high-maintenance and difficult to please. Evidence of this is how much Linux users tend to flame each other. I don't think Canonical really wants those extremely principled, very privacy-sensitive Linux geeks as customers. They would be behaving very differently to the criticism if they did.
Would you rather that Ubuntu go out of business than try to make money through the Amazon feature? Do you use Ubuntu? If so, why do you still use it if you feel so strongly against it? If not, why do you care so much about this? I'm a very happy Ubuntu user of many years, and I'd like to see Canonical be a successful business.
Morally wrong would be if they were trying to hold my files for ransom, or produce buggy software to sell me upgrades. They're just making it more convenient for me to buy stuff if I want to. On the spectrum of things that are morally wrong, this is so far from being something to get really upset about.
Morally wrong would be if they were trying to hold my files for ransom, or produce buggy software to sell me upgrades. They're just making it more convenient for me to buy stuff if I want to. On the spectrum of things that are morally wrong, this is so far from being something to get really upset about.
How much money does Amazon pay Canonical per month for basically random meaningless search terms from an unsegmented user base? I'd really like to know.
PS: I have used Ubuntu on desktop and I have made modest (OEM price of Windows 7) donations.
PS: I have used Ubuntu on desktop and I have made modest (OEM price of Windows 7) donations.
Amazon's standard affiliate rates range from 4% (less than 7 sales/month) to as high as 8.5% (3131+ sales/month). According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu_(operating_system)#Insta...) Ubuntu had ~20MM users as of 2011. Good estimates of conversion rate and average sale price would be tricky to come up with, but let's just pretend they're 0.1% and $50 respectively. That would see Canonical bringing in about $1MM annually from this feature.
Thanks for the interesting numbers. 20 million users but how many
1) Using Unity as opposed to another window manager AND
2) Using Ubuntu 13.04 or later and not the LTS AND
3) Not having opted out
Suspect the 0.1% is nearer 0.01% but we shall see...
1) Using Unity as opposed to another window manager AND
2) Using Ubuntu 13.04 or later and not the LTS AND
3) Not having opted out
Suspect the 0.1% is nearer 0.01% but we shall see...
I think you would be very surprised, but id like to know as well!
> I can't really trust Canonical - even though they've given us all so much
What did they give us exactly? Unity? Upstart? I'm laughing.
It's really interesting how Canonical managed to promote Ubuntu. In the beginning, Ubuntu had nothing Debian didn't have. Nothing at all. It was just Debian with a brown theme. They claimed it was the most user friendly Linux distribution, and a lot of novices believed them not knowing better. Fake it 'till you make it.
Ubuntu's success comes from the free CDs. That was Mark's single good decision, but what a decision that was.
What did they give us exactly? Unity? Upstart? I'm laughing.
It's really interesting how Canonical managed to promote Ubuntu. In the beginning, Ubuntu had nothing Debian didn't have. Nothing at all. It was just Debian with a brown theme. They claimed it was the most user friendly Linux distribution, and a lot of novices believed them not knowing better. Fake it 'till you make it.
Ubuntu's success comes from the free CDs. That was Mark's single good decision, but what a decision that was.
Ubuntu advanced desktop Linux in terms of ease of installation, drivers and slickness bar a time when Debian seemed to be stagnating.
I was a Debian user for years, but around 2005-6 I decided to change my main system to Ubuntu. At the time, it had been years since stable Debian had been updated and I was finding it laborious to update the software manually. Meanwhile, Debian unstable was more up to date with the latest KDE, gnome, etc but was ... unstable. Ubuntu did a lot of work well in terms of final fit and polish to make Debian more user friendly. While I have long been most at home glunking around in a shell, I appreciated this there's a limit to how much time I can spend compiling KDE and upgrading libc.
OK, great. So Ubuntu only accidentally sent the nasty letter, and didn't mean to offend a lot of people who got offended with the tea party remark.
But no addressing of the privacy complaints the fixubuntu site had.
And explicitly only apologizing to non-technical critics just reinforces the validity of the complaints that http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2013/10/thoughts-about... had.
But no addressing of the privacy complaints the fixubuntu site had.
And explicitly only apologizing to non-technical critics just reinforces the validity of the complaints that http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2013/10/thoughts-about... had.
I too was puzzled about the very specific language to apologise non-technical people.
Isn't technical criticism what we want?
Isn't technical criticism what we want?
I'm a bit confused by that section as well. Is Martins feedback given this categorization technical feedback?
> Unless critique is focused on improving the software in question it is pretty much a waste of the time of the people who are trying to improve the software in question.
The criticism was not focused on improving the software in question (Mir). That could mean he regards it as waste of time - or if we do the additional step and realize we are talking about the _software_ solution of the display-server as a whole, it might be not meant by that.
I don't know.
> Unless critique is focused on improving the software in question it is pretty much a waste of the time of the people who are trying to improve the software in question.
The criticism was not focused on improving the software in question (Mir). That could mean he regards it as waste of time - or if we do the additional step and realize we are talking about the _software_ solution of the display-server as a whole, it might be not meant by that.
I don't know.
The only technical criticism that he wants is how to make Ubuntu better. The technical criticism that he received is that he can't try to make Ubuntu better by making KWin worse. KWin is not responsible for distros. If a distro has a distro specific patch, the distro has to maintain that patch themselves.
Because technical criticism is welcome, and the tea party remark never applied to technical critics.
Not true. The person who most people thought that comment was originally directed was a technical critic. And the technical criticism was of a form that is not included in Mark Shuttleworth's description of useful criticism.
Cool how Shuttleworth also apologized for the tea party remark. Seemed kind of wrong for him to make it. Too bad he didn't address the gist of the fixubuntu site though, he didn't even link to it I think. Avoiding making the Streisand effect worse? Maybe he's already addressed the privacy issues?
The privacy issues were discussed in Sept. 2012, a month before Quantal was released.
22-Sept: Slashdot thread
http://yro.slashdot.org/story/12/09/22/1319216/ubuntu-will-n...
23-Sept: HN thread
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4558049
23-Sept: Shuttleworth blog post
http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/1182
22-Sept: Slashdot thread
http://yro.slashdot.org/story/12/09/22/1319216/ubuntu-will-n...
23-Sept: HN thread
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4558049
23-Sept: Shuttleworth blog post
http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/1182
>discussed.
that's a different concept than addressed.
that's a different concept than addressed.
There's no way to make a global search box on par with iOS, Android, OS X and Windows without sending the search string to a central server. The box is marked "search your computer and online sources", there are other search boxes in the dash to search locally, and there is a simple toggle switch to turn off the online portion in the privacy applet in the system settings.
The commands on the fixubuntu site are unnecessary, the simple toggle switch in the privacy applet solves the problem for people who want to disable online access in the global search box.
The commands on the fixubuntu site are unnecessary, the simple toggle switch in the privacy applet solves the problem for people who want to disable online access in the global search box.
I just don't understand all this hate towards Canonical. You can turn it off. Yes it was awkwardly rolled out but you can turn it off. What about google search as you type? Google Analytics, hell even the Ghostery plugin tracks data. Is this just the joy of supporting the underdog then hating them when they succeed? Now I don't work for Ubuntu, I don't use Ubuntu (I do use Mint which is derived from Ubuntu). When I think about the things that Apple and Microsoft have done and do I really think adding remote search is really low on the offense list. I mean they aren't making chemical weapons! Again most of this comment is I just don't get all the hate.
I can understand it. In these days of constant public and private surveillance, some people want a haven and want it to be consistently safe. One of the great selling points of Linux is that it was such a haven. Linux was supposed to be one of the few things left which wasn't trying to make a buck by watching you.
Ubuntu's little Amazon search wasn't very much compared to what Google, Facebook, or the NSA have been up to, but it was still a violation of the spirit of Linux and the unspoken rules and customs many people expect from OSS. For many people, this is a betrayal.
Ubuntu's little Amazon search wasn't very much compared to what Google, Facebook, or the NSA have been up to, but it was still a violation of the spirit of Linux and the unspoken rules and customs many people expect from OSS. For many people, this is a betrayal.
It's not as though they're trying to commit it into the kernel, though. There's about a million other Linux-based operating systems that can be used. Isn't it a healthy thing that they try to take different paths to success? Canonical is trying to monetize the consumer side of their OS. Red Hat sells support to enterprise. If you care about Linux, it should be a good thing that these companies are trying to make some money and be sustainable businesses.
Basically, have you ever stopped using software because it asked to install the Ask! toolbar by default in the installer?
I mean goddamn Java from Oracle does this, and it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. It's all those little rejections which slowly wear you down, because it feels like you have to be constantly vigilant.
I mean goddamn Java from Oracle does this, and it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. It's all those little rejections which slowly wear you down, because it feels like you have to be constantly vigilant.
I believe it is about abuse of position.
Ubuntu has a powerful position and a very high number of users in the Linux world. So, when it does something that people believe benefit itself at the expense of users, because it can be fairly sure those users will not flee to another distributes, people will be angry.
That is why people get angry at big large corporations. Because people are locked in, financially, technically, perhaps "merely" psychologically, they really don't like it when they feel abused. Yes, there is always know-it all-who claims its easy to change, but real people know its never ever that simple in reality.
What makes it worse is the knowledge that one is contributing to the power such corporations have by taking out contracts, licences or any other commitment not easily broken.
Ubuntu has a powerful position and a very high number of users in the Linux world. So, when it does something that people believe benefit itself at the expense of users, because it can be fairly sure those users will not flee to another distributes, people will be angry.
That is why people get angry at big large corporations. Because people are locked in, financially, technically, perhaps "merely" psychologically, they really don't like it when they feel abused. Yes, there is always know-it all-who claims its easy to change, but real people know its never ever that simple in reality.
What makes it worse is the knowledge that one is contributing to the power such corporations have by taking out contracts, licences or any other commitment not easily broken.
Not to mention that it's a free product. If it was trying to do something underhanded (eg. actually spy on users) then I could understand, but actually it's just Canonical trying to make some revenue by facilitating the sale of Amazon products. As an Ubuntu user, I want them to be successful as a business, it's a convenient feature, and I could easily turn it off (or not use Ubuntu) if I felt strongly against it. I can't understand why people pour so much energy into being critical of an underdog when there are so many other options.
At a high level, I accept Shuttleworth's apology. I do not believe that it is a company policy to use trademark law to silence complaints.
Some nuances: > Judge the policy. In this case Canonical has a trademark > policy that enables community members to use the marks > (good) and allows for satire and sucks sites even in > jurisdictions where the local law does not (great!). > Failing to have a policy would not be a bonus point in this review :)
In the US, anybody (not just community members) has a clear right to use the mark for satire and criticism. However, I'm sure there is some jurisdiction where this is not the case. Shuttleworth is not claiming that the license is needed in the US.
I was not aware of Shuttleworth's "tea party" comment; he was right to apologize for making it. Based on his post, he was making an analogy between certain types of unconstructive criticism of Ubuntu -- ad hominems, conspiracy theories, and racism -- and behavior he associated with the tea party. That behavior is, of course, not limited to just the tea party, nor is it true for everyone associated with the tea party.
Some nuances: > Judge the policy. In this case Canonical has a trademark > policy that enables community members to use the marks > (good) and allows for satire and sucks sites even in > jurisdictions where the local law does not (great!). > Failing to have a policy would not be a bonus point in this review :)
In the US, anybody (not just community members) has a clear right to use the mark for satire and criticism. However, I'm sure there is some jurisdiction where this is not the case. Shuttleworth is not claiming that the license is needed in the US.
I was not aware of Shuttleworth's "tea party" comment; he was right to apologize for making it. Based on his post, he was making an analogy between certain types of unconstructive criticism of Ubuntu -- ad hominems, conspiracy theories, and racism -- and behavior he associated with the tea party. That behavior is, of course, not limited to just the tea party, nor is it true for everyone associated with the tea party.
What was with the crack at Debian?[0]. Given how reliant Ubuntu is on Debian's work and the amount historical animosity that there's been (a lot of which Mark directly caused with the early interactions between the projects), fanning the flames just seems incredibly stupid.
[0] "Debian started arguing about whether it should remove all references to the distro-that-shall-not-be-named but then decided to argue about whether it should enforce its own trademarks which lead to an argument about… oh never mind."
[0] "Debian started arguing about whether it should remove all references to the distro-that-shall-not-be-named but then decided to argue about whether it should enforce its own trademarks which lead to an argument about… oh never mind."
Someone submitted patches for Debian that changed Ubuntu to 'the disto which shall not be name', and then it spiralled out from there.
Wow, I find it amazing how hard is for him to apologize for the "tea party" remark.
It took him almost a month, then he uses another person's mistake as an example, and then in a small remark at the end, he apologizes.
I guess it is "better late than never". But it speaks about how little social skills some geeks have(he was programmer before billionaire).
It took him almost a month, then he uses another person's mistake as an example, and then in a small remark at the end, he apologizes.
I guess it is "better late than never". But it speaks about how little social skills some geeks have(he was programmer before billionaire).
> Please accept my apologies if you [...] felt offended by the label.
That's not an apology for using the label, that's a [1].
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-apology_apology
That's not an apology for using the label, that's a [1].
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-apology_apology
Never Mark Shuttleworth's fault.
Someone playing politics with an open source project or some unknown staffer who made a "mistake" - never the culture he built or his over the top response to said open source project not adopting the divine direction that he has taken.
Nope, not Mark Shuttleworth's fault.
Someone playing politics with an open source project or some unknown staffer who made a "mistake" - never the culture he built or his over the top response to said open source project not adopting the divine direction that he has taken.
Nope, not Mark Shuttleworth's fault.
I tend to think favorably of Canonical and very highly of Shuttleworth, but in this case I'm already pissed of after reading only the first part of the post. This is just highly manipulative PR speak.
First there's the repeated suggestion that Canonical is "generous" in allowing all kinds of use of its trademark, where however that kind of use, like satire, is protected by law. It's like saying "look how generous I am to stop for pedestrians at a red light".
Second there's the ludicrous analogy between the a bug in the code and the incident. A bug in code, no matter how bad, doesn't compare to an act of aggression aimed at a specific party. The internet did not overreact, it was Canonical that acted with disproportionate aggression. Shuttleworth fails to recognize that and still tries to cover it up by accusing his critics of being unreasonable. A better technical analogy would not be a bug, but deliberately installing malware.
This is not an apology. It's a defense combined with an underhanded attack an Canonical's critics.
I wasn't one of the "vocal non-technical critics". Now I am. This attitude stinks.
First there's the repeated suggestion that Canonical is "generous" in allowing all kinds of use of its trademark, where however that kind of use, like satire, is protected by law. It's like saying "look how generous I am to stop for pedestrians at a red light".
Second there's the ludicrous analogy between the a bug in the code and the incident. A bug in code, no matter how bad, doesn't compare to an act of aggression aimed at a specific party. The internet did not overreact, it was Canonical that acted with disproportionate aggression. Shuttleworth fails to recognize that and still tries to cover it up by accusing his critics of being unreasonable. A better technical analogy would not be a bug, but deliberately installing malware.
This is not an apology. It's a defense combined with an underhanded attack an Canonical's critics.
I wasn't one of the "vocal non-technical critics". Now I am. This attitude stinks.
> First there's the repeated suggestion that Canonical is "generous" in allowing all kinds of use of its trademark, where however that kind of use, like satire, is protected by law. It's like saying "look how generous I am to stop for pedestrians at a red light".
Satire is not categorically protected by law and the usage in question was not clearly satire by usual definitions. You should investigate matters more carefully before getting "pissed," because your information seems to be coming from questionable sources.
> Second there's the ludicrous analogy between the a bug in the code and the incident. A bug in code, no matter how bad, doesn't compare to an act of aggression aimed at a specific party. The internet did not overreact, it was Canonical that acted with disproportionate aggression.
All this was was words. To call a letter requesting that a site not infringe on Canonical's trademarks "an act of aggression" is a bit of an overstatement. Computer bugs have caused several orders of magnitudes greater harm.
Satire is not categorically protected by law and the usage in question was not clearly satire by usual definitions. You should investigate matters more carefully before getting "pissed," because your information seems to be coming from questionable sources.
> Second there's the ludicrous analogy between the a bug in the code and the incident. A bug in code, no matter how bad, doesn't compare to an act of aggression aimed at a specific party. The internet did not overreact, it was Canonical that acted with disproportionate aggression.
All this was was words. To call a letter requesting that a site not infringe on Canonical's trademarks "an act of aggression" is a bit of an overstatement. Computer bugs have caused several orders of magnitudes greater harm.
I'd like to add that Canonical has for years protected the word ubuntu, and it did so coherently.
Projects which were not official projects should not use the name in their url or their name. See getdeb/playbuntu as an example: http://blog.getdeb.net/2008/08/playbuntu-is-now-playdeb-beta.... fixbuntu couldn't be easily confused with an official ubuntu project, but still.
But projects like the (independent) local support forums sure were allowed to use the name, they got an official approval. See also the trademark license: http://www.canonical.com/intellectual-property-policy (though I'm annoyed by their use of "intellectual property", I tend to support Stallmans position on this one)
So his first paragraphs - how it is handled and that this is done in a good way normally - seem to be correct to me. Try to create a distribution of Windows (think reactOS), name it Windows something, and compare the reaction.
Projects which were not official projects should not use the name in their url or their name. See getdeb/playbuntu as an example: http://blog.getdeb.net/2008/08/playbuntu-is-now-playdeb-beta.... fixbuntu couldn't be easily confused with an official ubuntu project, but still.
But projects like the (independent) local support forums sure were allowed to use the name, they got an official approval. See also the trademark license: http://www.canonical.com/intellectual-property-policy (though I'm annoyed by their use of "intellectual property", I tend to support Stallmans position on this one)
So his first paragraphs - how it is handled and that this is done in a good way normally - seem to be correct to me. Try to create a distribution of Windows (think reactOS), name it Windows something, and compare the reaction.
A lawyer sending threats is by most people's definition a act of aggression.
Especially when it's very doubtful there was infringement.
Especially when it's very doubtful there was infringement.
It does not seem very doubtful to me. The site in question appropriated the two main Ubuntu marks, displayed them as prominently as possible, carried no other identifying marks of any kind and didn't include any kind of disclaimer†. If all of that isn't enough for you to say, "Y'know, maybe he was infringing," what exactly would he have to do for you to say that?
† It's worth noting that even officially sanctioned sites like UbuntuForums take care to explain that they are not Canonical.
† It's worth noting that even officially sanctioned sites like UbuntuForums take care to explain that they are not Canonical.
He would have to be claiming to be officially ubuntu or leaving that impression with people. I dont think there was any doubt that the site was not a official ubuntu site. In my mind this falls under fair use as specifically allowed, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use_(U.S._trademark_law).
If it would be infringement to use a trademark like that it would be impossible to write about any trademarked product.
If it would be infringement to use a trademark like that it would be impossible to write about any trademarked product.
> He would have to be claiming to be officially ubuntu or leaving that impression with people.
Again, the word "Ubuntu" was the majority of the domain name and the majority of the page header, and in the header it was accompanied by the Ubuntu logo. Nowhere was any other branding used than Ubuntu's and he made no attempt to clarify that he was not associated with Canonical or Ubuntu. If that isn't enough to even be potentially confusing, what is the bar you think he'd have to clear? Does the page need to literally include the words "THIS IS UBUNTU SPEAKING. I AM HEREBY CLAIMING TO BE UBUNTU"?
> I dont think there was any doubt that the site was not a official ubuntu site
Please remember that there are many thousands of people who log into Facebook by Googling the phrase "Facebook login" and blindly clicking the first thing that comes up (http://readwrite.com/2010/02/11/how_google_failed_internet_m...). You are more technically savvy than most people, so the fact that this does not confuse you doesn't mean it doesn't confuse anyone.
> If it would be infringement to use a trademark like that it would be impossible to write about any trademarked product.
Not at all, for example, here's an Ars Technica review of Ubuntu: http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/10/ubuntu...
Does the domain name substantially consist of the mark "Ubuntu"? No, and in fact it isn't even part of the domain name. Does the header at the top of the page say "Ubuntu"? No, it says "Ars Technica". Is the Ubuntu logo used as an identifying mark on the page? No, it isn't. This page has a clear identity besides "Ubuntu." It is clearly an article by Ryan Paul of Ars Technica about Ubuntu, and all of the Ubuntu trademarks are used illustratively, not as branding. The same is not true of FixUbuntu.
Again, the word "Ubuntu" was the majority of the domain name and the majority of the page header, and in the header it was accompanied by the Ubuntu logo. Nowhere was any other branding used than Ubuntu's and he made no attempt to clarify that he was not associated with Canonical or Ubuntu. If that isn't enough to even be potentially confusing, what is the bar you think he'd have to clear? Does the page need to literally include the words "THIS IS UBUNTU SPEAKING. I AM HEREBY CLAIMING TO BE UBUNTU"?
> I dont think there was any doubt that the site was not a official ubuntu site
Please remember that there are many thousands of people who log into Facebook by Googling the phrase "Facebook login" and blindly clicking the first thing that comes up (http://readwrite.com/2010/02/11/how_google_failed_internet_m...). You are more technically savvy than most people, so the fact that this does not confuse you doesn't mean it doesn't confuse anyone.
> If it would be infringement to use a trademark like that it would be impossible to write about any trademarked product.
Not at all, for example, here's an Ars Technica review of Ubuntu: http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/10/ubuntu...
Does the domain name substantially consist of the mark "Ubuntu"? No, and in fact it isn't even part of the domain name. Does the header at the top of the page say "Ubuntu"? No, it says "Ars Technica". Is the Ubuntu logo used as an identifying mark on the page? No, it isn't. This page has a clear identity besides "Ubuntu." It is clearly an article by Ryan Paul of Ars Technica about Ubuntu, and all of the Ubuntu trademarks are used illustratively, not as branding. The same is not true of FixUbuntu.
Two things, do you really think that most most people will think a fixubuntu site is a official ubuntu site? Does he in any way profit from the site?
The second thing, did you read my link about fair use? I think this pretty much falls into it.
The second thing, did you read my link about fair use? I think this pretty much falls into it.
> Two things, do you really think that most most people will think a fixubuntu site is a official ubuntu site?
Most? Probably not. But I think the potential is there for many to do so.
> The second thing, did you read my link about fair use? I think this pretty much falls into it.
Yes, but as you have not explained why you think it applies here, I don't know what you expect me to get from that link. I have already explained why this use does not seem clearly nominative to me†, and he certainly wasn't using the term "ubuntu" in a generic sense.
† For starters, using the Ubuntu logo as the site's logo seems extremely superfluous. Do you believe visitors to the site will now have trouble telling what Ubuntu is since the logo has been removed?
Most? Probably not. But I think the potential is there for many to do so.
> The second thing, did you read my link about fair use? I think this pretty much falls into it.
Yes, but as you have not explained why you think it applies here, I don't know what you expect me to get from that link. I have already explained why this use does not seem clearly nominative to me†, and he certainly wasn't using the term "ubuntu" in a generic sense.
† For starters, using the Ubuntu logo as the site's logo seems extremely superfluous. Do you believe visitors to the site will now have trouble telling what Ubuntu is since the logo has been removed?
It is this part i find especially relevant:
A nonowner may also use a trademark nominatively—to refer to the actual trademarked product or its source. In addition to protecting product criticism and analysis
Not doubtful in the slightest, IMO.
> This is just highly manipulative PR speak.
The only part of the first section that wasn't "here's what happened" and "we're sorry, it was wrong" was detailing how generously they use their mark. I'm not trying to condescend, but just like patents and employment law, I think trademarks aren't as simple of an issue as they'd seem. I believe (with my layman understanding) that, in fact, the onus really is on the bearer of the mark to defend it. I think it was a tagline mentioned in the Wired article that spurred my interest (but -- surprise -- can't find it anymore), but that was a detail that I was interested in knowing. I think that's pretty impressive.
> Second there's the ludicrous analogy between the a bug in the code and the incident. A bug in code, no matter how bad, doesn't compare to an act of aggression aimed at a specific party. The internet did not overreact, it was Canonical that acted with disproportionate aggression. Shuttleworth fails to recognize that and still tries to cover it up by accusing his critics of being unreasonable.
This is an extreme reaction. I don't see a notice of misuse of a trademark as an act of agression, rather business in the globalized world. Is it possible forcible purging is Canonical's M.O. and it's just bad luck that they got caught this time? I guess so, but hey -- that's what the courts are for, right?
The only part of the first section that wasn't "here's what happened" and "we're sorry, it was wrong" was detailing how generously they use their mark. I'm not trying to condescend, but just like patents and employment law, I think trademarks aren't as simple of an issue as they'd seem. I believe (with my layman understanding) that, in fact, the onus really is on the bearer of the mark to defend it. I think it was a tagline mentioned in the Wired article that spurred my interest (but -- surprise -- can't find it anymore), but that was a detail that I was interested in knowing. I think that's pretty impressive.
> Second there's the ludicrous analogy between the a bug in the code and the incident. A bug in code, no matter how bad, doesn't compare to an act of aggression aimed at a specific party. The internet did not overreact, it was Canonical that acted with disproportionate aggression. Shuttleworth fails to recognize that and still tries to cover it up by accusing his critics of being unreasonable.
This is an extreme reaction. I don't see a notice of misuse of a trademark as an act of agression, rather business in the globalized world. Is it possible forcible purging is Canonical's M.O. and it's just bad luck that they got caught this time? I guess so, but hey -- that's what the courts are for, right?
The fact that Shuttleworth describes fixubuntu.com using the phrase "folks behind a “sucks” site" demonstrates his entirely dismissive attitude of a very important issue, here being raised by ONE person, not in a "sucks" style whatsoever.
That's not the point. He's saying the site is critical of Canonical and Ubuntu, and he's fine with that. "Sucks site" was just a shorthand.
Come on - 'a "sucks" site' implies one that is wholly, disproportionately, and/or subjectively critical. fixubuntu.com is none of those things. Shuttleworth's wording was - I think, intentionally - used to disparage and discredit it as a source of useful information.
So, cheap pop at Debian in an apology? Ummm ...
Heh, quite fun watching the score on this go up and down, a controversial statement? I see @dlgeek has also commented on this.
'Last week, the less-than-a-month-at-Canonical new guy sent out the toughest template letter to the folks behind a “sucks” site.'
This is not an excuse and reflects poorly on all management when you throw the new guy under the bus. The only response to this[1] is "I" not "the new guy". You are the captain of the ship and don't get to hide behind the new guy.
1) If there is legal consequences and not PR, then you probably shouldn't state anything about what happened inside and should only speak the absolute truth or the parts your lawyer let's you.
This is not an excuse and reflects poorly on all management when you throw the new guy under the bus. The only response to this[1] is "I" not "the new guy". You are the captain of the ship and don't get to hide behind the new guy.
1) If there is legal consequences and not PR, then you probably shouldn't state anything about what happened inside and should only speak the absolute truth or the parts your lawyer let's you.
Just stop reading this shit.
| I made a mistake myself when I used the label “open source tea party” to refer to the vocal non-technical critics of work that Canonical does
He's still sticking with labelling vocal technical critics as the open source tea party. Just read it carefully once again.
| That was unnecessary and quite possibly equally offensive to members of the real Tea Party (hi there!) and the people with vocal non-technical criticism of work that Canonical does
| Please accept my apologies if you have been a vocal non-technical critic of Canonical’s software and felt offended by the label
Well this non-apology apology completely insults the intelligence of anyone reading it.
Edit: Formatting
| I made a mistake myself when I used the label “open source tea party” to refer to the vocal non-technical critics of work that Canonical does
He's still sticking with labelling vocal technical critics as the open source tea party. Just read it carefully once again.
| That was unnecessary and quite possibly equally offensive to members of the real Tea Party (hi there!) and the people with vocal non-technical criticism of work that Canonical does
| Please accept my apologies if you have been a vocal non-technical critic of Canonical’s software and felt offended by the label
Well this non-apology apology completely insults the intelligence of anyone reading it.
Edit: Formatting
[deleted]
thanks for the spin mark, lets talk about privacy as well
Is this a mistake that was addressed or was this a tell of the policies of Ubuntu? I really doubt that Shuttleworth is going to destroy the trove of commercially-valuable personal information that is Unity and Zeitgeist.
Clearly, he didn't address anything. He just backtracked. This isn't about the Ubuntu logo, as much as Shuttleworth wishes it to be.
Clearly, he didn't address anything. He just backtracked. This isn't about the Ubuntu logo, as much as Shuttleworth wishes it to be.
It's cold in hell tonight.
OK everyone kiss each other. lets get this over
So kudos to him for having the balls to apologize. I accept that apology, and I think that a lot of people (including myself) have had some venomous things to say about him as well as Canonical which probably weren't fair. So we could probably all back off here and focus on the real issues.
...but...
He's still not talking about the two elephants in the room.
The Unity lens is fundamentally fucked up. It should be opt-in. Period. It's clearly an infringement on users' privacy and totally not in the spirit of libre software or Linux. I can't really trust Canonical - even though they've given us all so much - because of this issue. So long as they don't back down from this I'm going to look at everything they do with a critical and possibly cynical eye... it just clearly looks like they're selling out their users. It is really just sad to see them selling out to Amazon like this, and I wish it didn't have to be this way. I can't really fathom the amount of money Mark has spent on Ubuntu. I don't really know how he can make it work as a business. But the Amazon search in the lens just seems like a morally wrong and short-sighted way to go.
The second issue which we all need to address is Mir. The technical arguments are completely over my head, but I feel like Canonical hasn't fully made the case for why they've decided to fragment the community and do their own thing. This could just be me not understanding what's going on, but pretty much everyone who's developing this stuff seems to be on Wayland's side... why is that (and is that)? It's worth considering, but I feel like Canonical should be engaging the community, although with all the flaming that goes on I can see why they don't. We all want the best free software we can get, but some serious thought needs to be devoted to the ramifications and rationale for having two display servers.
So that's the end of this long rant - let me know what you think.