Qatar: Abolish Exit Visas for Migrant Workers(hrw.org)
hrw.org
Qatar: Abolish Exit Visas for Migrant Workers
http://www.hrw.org/news/2013/05/30/qatar-abolish-exit-visas-migrant-workers
8 comments
> named after the royal family (who does that anyway?)
Depends on the scope of "that", but...
Kingdom of Hanover (defunct), Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, Liechtenstein, Virginia, Maryland, Georgia, Carolina (both), Alberta, Prince Edward Island, Victoria.
And of course Pennsylvania was named for founder William Penn.
Should we start in on cities?
Depends on the scope of "that", but...
Kingdom of Hanover (defunct), Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, Liechtenstein, Virginia, Maryland, Georgia, Carolina (both), Alberta, Prince Edward Island, Victoria.
And of course Pennsylvania was named for founder William Penn.
Should we start in on cities?
The Kingdom of Hanover was not named after the family.
Rather, both the Kingdom and the House of Hanover were named after the capital city of Hanover.
This is quite common for Western European royalty. Because they didn't have actual surnames, they used the location of the family seat. For example, the House of Windsor was named after Windsor Castle. The House of Habsburg-Lorraine was named after Habsburg Castle and the region of Lorraine. The House of Hohenzollern was named after Hohenzollern Castle.
Rather, both the Kingdom and the House of Hanover were named after the capital city of Hanover.
This is quite common for Western European royalty. Because they didn't have actual surnames, they used the location of the family seat. For example, the House of Windsor was named after Windsor Castle. The House of Habsburg-Lorraine was named after Habsburg Castle and the region of Lorraine. The House of Hohenzollern was named after Hohenzollern Castle.
I love this game. Ottoman Empire, Bolivia [1], China [2], Philippines, Mozambique.
1: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sim%C3%B3n_Bol%C3%ADvarl 2: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_Chin
1: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sim%C3%B3n_Bol%C3%ADvarl 2: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_Chin
May be worth noting that the Chinese didn't name their country China, they named it Zhong guo.
Which is almost more arrogant, since it translates to "The country in the center". It's a little easier to understand why there's a strain of "we are the center of the world, outside our borders are barbarians" when you look at pre-modern borders: China is bordered by oceans, the russian steppes, the xinjian desert, and the tibetan plateau.
Well according to Wikipedia (yeah I know, but I don't feel like searching elsewhere) it may or may not be taken with the meaning "center of the world." And even if it is, it's more of an observation than a boast, since from their perspective they were in the middle of a bunch of other countries like you said. And hey, they call America "beautiful country" so they're not being stingy.
Venezuela is officially the 'Bolivarian republic of Venezuela', so Simon Bolivar actually has _two_ countries named after him (the other being Bolivia).
Washington, D.C. was named after George Washington while he was still an acting president.
I think it's a matter of recency.
If FDR (the US president when Saudi Arabia was named) renamed the US, "The United States of Roosevelt" it would have raised some eyebrows.
The only contemporary item on your list is Jordan.
If FDR (the US president when Saudi Arabia was named) renamed the US, "The United States of Roosevelt" it would have raised some eyebrows.
The only contemporary item on your list is Jordan.
It can also be seen as an economic goal, and that some in the Western business environment might actually be jealous of the exit visa policy.
Good point. It definitely depends on where policy is being thought up. I would say your point is a solid thing to be worried about, considering the pull the executive public-business class has on the world.
My question to you is that if feel like economical arguments trump moral/ethical arguments in terms of legitimate public policy?
My question to you is that if feel like economical arguments trump moral/ethical arguments in terms of legitimate public policy?
Since capitalism is the national religion of the US and other countries, moral and ethical arguments are going to have to surmount it just like they would in the theocracies of the Middle East.
Qatar has bought France. Complaints won't come from here.
This is related to a broader international anti-slavery campaign, as the exit visa system is essentially the instrument for enforcing wage slavery in Qatar. cf. recent Guardian articles related to the world cup construction:
http://www.theguardian.com/global-development/video/2013/sep...
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/25/revealed-qatars...
http://www.theguardian.com/global-development/video/2013/sep...
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/25/revealed-qatars...
Yes, given the story of a football slave, how ironic that they are holding the football World Cup in Qatar.
I hope every true football fan boycotts Qatar 2022 and puts pressure on top players and FIFA to move the World Cup to more deserving countries.
I hope every true football fan boycotts Qatar 2022 and puts pressure on top players and FIFA to move the World Cup to more deserving countries.
If they wind up holding it in winter, European enthusiasm for the World Cup is going to plummet even without the other factors. Forget all those public gatherings, large and small, which are a huge part of the experience of major tournaments.
The TV broadcasters are already objecting to the proposed winter move. It's just an awful decision on every level for everyone who wasn't being directly bribed by the Qataris.
I do maintain a tiny shred of hope that a few major nations will withdraw from FIFA after this summer, bringing the whole thing toppling down. It's a fantasy, though. Most football politicians are nearly as bad.
The TV broadcasters are already objecting to the proposed winter move. It's just an awful decision on every level for everyone who wasn't being directly bribed by the Qataris.
I do maintain a tiny shred of hope that a few major nations will withdraw from FIFA after this summer, bringing the whole thing toppling down. It's a fantasy, though. Most football politicians are nearly as bad.
Football goes hand in hand with beer and other alcohol, so Qatar is going to face some challenges.
Politics and sports...arenas for the latter are created so that no one pays attention to the arena of the former.
Football and politics are inseparable.
It might be true in the USA that sports pacify the population, but in the rest of the world you have football fans starting wars (real wars), overthrowing governments, politicians and dictators owning clubs (being a director of a football club is a legitimate stepping stone in a lot of European politics), etc.
At the football forums I am a regular the top topics recently have all been about Qatar, the World Cup bid, etc.
The only reason Human Rights Watch picked up this campaign (they are late to the party) is because The Guardian and its football writers started writing about Qatar (and the example of the player cited within) before and after they won the World Cup bid.
It might be true in the USA that sports pacify the population, but in the rest of the world you have football fans starting wars (real wars), overthrowing governments, politicians and dictators owning clubs (being a director of a football club is a legitimate stepping stone in a lot of European politics), etc.
At the football forums I am a regular the top topics recently have all been about Qatar, the World Cup bid, etc.
The only reason Human Rights Watch picked up this campaign (they are late to the party) is because The Guardian and its football writers started writing about Qatar (and the example of the player cited within) before and after they won the World Cup bid.
You forgot the obligatory "wake up, sheeple" remark.
"Qatar and Saudi Arabia are the only Gulf Cooperative Council states with an exit visa system"
They're in a good company. Only other countries to have exit visa are North Korea and Uzbekistan. (In the latter, you can still travel to most former USSR neighbors without exit visa)
They're in a good company. Only other countries to have exit visa are North Korea and Uzbekistan. (In the latter, you can still travel to most former USSR neighbors without exit visa)
Also Eritrea. It is why there are shoot to kill orders for Eritrean border guards if they see any of the thousands of Eritreans fleeing Eritrea every month.
I'm embarrassed to say I hadn't even heard of that African country and their people's ordeal until you mentioned it. Thanks for the information.
Kuwait has the same system for expats working in government.
For a migrant worker, it won't be surprising if the passport is deposited with the Employer at the time of joining work. I don't speak from personal experience, but from anecdotes I heard from friends and extended family. So even if there isn't an exit visa required, they don't have the passport, which means they can only travel with permission of their employer. A modern form of slavery.
I've always wondered why the employees can't just report their passports as lost or stolen in these kinds of situations and get a new one.
Who says they can't? There is absolutely no mention of talking to the French embassy or consulate in this article. That's the first place I'd go.
In this story, it doesn't say he's missing a passport, it days he does not have permission to leave the country. I'd be surprised if his embassy could do anything about it legally.
Plenty they can do. Here's an example: "Give this guy an exit visa, or the next time your Snowden equivalent flees to France, we're going to make sure that his name is spelled wrong on the paperwork, if you know what we mean."
If it's policy it can't be slavery. /s
>The onus is on the expatriate either to find another exit sponsor, who must be a Qatari national, or to provide a certificate that there are no outstanding legal claims against the person trying to leave 15 days after publishing a notice in two daily newspapers.
This seems to be doable workaround. This could be possibly even automated, perhaps start-up idea?
I do not think this could be changed politically, US and those states are best buddies and any serious political pressure would be vetoed.
This seems to be doable workaround. This could be possibly even automated, perhaps start-up idea?
I do not think this could be changed politically, US and those states are best buddies and any serious political pressure would be vetoed.
>This seems to be doable workaround. This could be possibly even automated, perhaps start-up idea?
I am guessing you haven't actually worked in Qatar or Saudi Arabia, the two Middle Eastern countries that retain exit visas. I have (Saudi Arabia), and I think it's really naive to think this is do-able, and even a little bit insulting to think a start-up could somehow solve what's going on here.
Let's consider the two alternatives: first of all, they are both no-goes for the type of workers who are trapped by exit visas. Placing a notice in two daily newspapers? Even if you manage to get that, you've then got to get the certificate. Getting any kind of official documentation out of the bureaucracy is next to impossible for someone who a) isn't a citizen of Qatar / Saudi, and b) has no wasta (which roughly translates into 'clout', or 'who you know').
Which brings us onto the other option: finding a Qatari national. The case cited in the article, of a French professional footballer, is rather unique. The vast majority of people unable to obtain exit visas are immigrant workers doing low-paid jobs no Qatari or Saudi wants to do. They are, for all intents and purposes, effectively slaves. I saw it with my own eyes when I was working there: indeed, I remember reading several stories of migrant workers trying to stow themselves away in planes out of Saudi.
So as an exploited worker let's say you manage to find a Qatari willing to sponsor your exit. Except you won't, for two reasons: firstly, no national would risk creating trouble with the state (especially in Saudi, which has a religious police force (the Muttaween), and even if you did find a national willing to help you (which again, would be virtually impossible) the chances are they'd have no wasta and would almost certainly end up in a dead end of paperwork and bureaucracy.
I met many good people in Qatar and Saudi: people who think the current system of 'government' (if you can call it that) is wrong, and that the large numbers of workers coming in from India, Indonesia, and the like are being exploited. But they are simply not able to do what you're suggesting - subvert the system - without serious and profound consequences.
I am guessing you haven't actually worked in Qatar or Saudi Arabia, the two Middle Eastern countries that retain exit visas. I have (Saudi Arabia), and I think it's really naive to think this is do-able, and even a little bit insulting to think a start-up could somehow solve what's going on here.
Let's consider the two alternatives: first of all, they are both no-goes for the type of workers who are trapped by exit visas. Placing a notice in two daily newspapers? Even if you manage to get that, you've then got to get the certificate. Getting any kind of official documentation out of the bureaucracy is next to impossible for someone who a) isn't a citizen of Qatar / Saudi, and b) has no wasta (which roughly translates into 'clout', or 'who you know').
Which brings us onto the other option: finding a Qatari national. The case cited in the article, of a French professional footballer, is rather unique. The vast majority of people unable to obtain exit visas are immigrant workers doing low-paid jobs no Qatari or Saudi wants to do. They are, for all intents and purposes, effectively slaves. I saw it with my own eyes when I was working there: indeed, I remember reading several stories of migrant workers trying to stow themselves away in planes out of Saudi.
So as an exploited worker let's say you manage to find a Qatari willing to sponsor your exit. Except you won't, for two reasons: firstly, no national would risk creating trouble with the state (especially in Saudi, which has a religious police force (the Muttaween), and even if you did find a national willing to help you (which again, would be virtually impossible) the chances are they'd have no wasta and would almost certainly end up in a dead end of paperwork and bureaucracy.
I met many good people in Qatar and Saudi: people who think the current system of 'government' (if you can call it that) is wrong, and that the large numbers of workers coming in from India, Indonesia, and the like are being exploited. But they are simply not able to do what you're suggesting - subvert the system - without serious and profound consequences.
Yet two other countries on my personal No Fly List.
...
[x] UK (can force people to hand over passwords)
[x] US (probability that they reject people at the border/airport for ridiculous reasons)
[x] Qatar (exit visa required)
[x] Saudi Arabia (exit visa required)
...
Even if I'm not sure if those exit visas also apply to short term visitors. Better safe than sorry.
...
[x] UK (can force people to hand over passwords)
[x] US (probability that they reject people at the border/airport for ridiculous reasons)
[x] Qatar (exit visa required)
[x] Saudi Arabia (exit visa required)
...
Even if I'm not sure if those exit visas also apply to short term visitors. Better safe than sorry.
>[x] UK (can force people to hand over passwords)
Might want to add all these to your little list then:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_disclosure_law
Might want to add all these to your little list then:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_disclosure_law
Unfortunately the list gets longer and longer these days.
Fun fact: Saudi Arabia didn't outright outlaw slavery until 1965. (No, not 1865' 1965)
Things take time in that part of the world
Things take time in that part of the world
Fun fact: the US didn't provide full equal rights for its gay citizens until sometime after 2013.
While I am firmly in favor of gay rights (and my political donations are largely directed towards those causes) there is a significant difference in degree here and the comparison is insulting to both.
Where would you rather be gay - the US or Saudi Arabia?
How many countries did so earlier?
After some wiki-research, I found that my facts on this were dead wrong.
It turns out that progressive Saudi Arabia was far more forward-thinking when it comes to the abolition of slavery than I had imagined, they abolished slavery in 1962 not 1965...
But to answer your question, A LOT: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolition_of_slavery_timeline#1...
(But also, ahem...http://www.loc.gov/rr/program/bib/ourdocs/13thamendment.html)
All smart assery aside, even today you are in big trouble as a Filipino or Eastern European maid or nanny if you choose or are tricked into setting up shop in Saudi Arabia
It turns out that progressive Saudi Arabia was far more forward-thinking when it comes to the abolition of slavery than I had imagined, they abolished slavery in 1962 not 1965...
But to answer your question, A LOT: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolition_of_slavery_timeline#1...
(But also, ahem...http://www.loc.gov/rr/program/bib/ourdocs/13thamendment.html)
All smart assery aside, even today you are in big trouble as a Filipino or Eastern European maid or nanny if you choose or are tricked into setting up shop in Saudi Arabia
I was asking about equal rights for homosexuals, not slavery. As far as I know, very few countries qualify today.
I'm guessing this is an attempt to be provocative or sassy or something, but let's get real here dude/dudette
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This is a potential problem for every country. While western governments are considered much different than both Qatar and Saudi Arabia, the trajectory is leaning towards the paradigm those two countries occupy. This is of course, inequality, which is the measure that slavery falls onto one side at the end.
We can look at this policy as a policy, or we can have an intellectual argument on the merit of this type of governance. GOVERNMENT is literally what society as a whole, consents to being legitimate use of force. Military, Law, and Order.
No obviously we can assert that the power of the Sauds and the Thani is illegitimate today in the western world, because we ourselves have in our past moved away from the concentrated and hereditary control of power, into the hands of the super rich (the other end of the inequal spectrum).
So while I applaud hrw.org for pointing attention to this horrible policy, and more intellectually honest headline could read, "Qatar's People: Overthrow your illegitimate rulers.".
Any westerners who are reading this article and are upset or angry, need to fight against neo-feudalism in the US and European countries. The only way we can truly help the people of Qatar and Saudi Arabia is by stronghand political means. Not seeing anything from the US regarding these matters speaks volumes of their slide into neo-feudalism in my opinion. This is something seen both by anti-authoritarian leftists AND rightists(is this a word?).