Ask HN: How do you get hired for a senior role without "experience"?
7 comments
If you truly have the knowledge and judgement(!) to justify a senior position, regardless of years of experience, you should have no trouble landing such a position.
There may be some companies with biases that will prevent it, but there are plenty of companies that don't care how old you are, what you look like -- just that you're really good at what you do.
But be aware that many people overestimate their abilities or undervalue the judgement that years of experience bring. There's a lot of value in having been around long enough to see things come and go. To have made lots of mistakes and learned valuable lessons. Some people really are so good that they can skip much of that, but it's very rare. The only safe bet is to assume you're not one of those people.
And I wouldn't get too hung up about titles. If someone wants to call you "Junior Dog Walker" but pays you and treats you like you want to be treated then don't worry about it.
There may be some companies with biases that will prevent it, but there are plenty of companies that don't care how old you are, what you look like -- just that you're really good at what you do.
But be aware that many people overestimate their abilities or undervalue the judgement that years of experience bring. There's a lot of value in having been around long enough to see things come and go. To have made lots of mistakes and learned valuable lessons. Some people really are so good that they can skip much of that, but it's very rare. The only safe bet is to assume you're not one of those people.
And I wouldn't get too hung up about titles. If someone wants to call you "Junior Dog Walker" but pays you and treats you like you want to be treated then don't worry about it.
How about the pigeonhole effect of linking titles with compensation?
Also, in many places, having the "Junior Dog Walker" outshine the "Lead Dog Walker" can end up being a severe career limiting move. This seems to lead to some hierarchical tensions as many people seem to want their juniors to be juniors and little more but not too much more. How is this countered?
Also, in many places, having the "Junior Dog Walker" outshine the "Lead Dog Walker" can end up being a severe career limiting move. This seems to lead to some hierarchical tensions as many people seem to want their juniors to be juniors and little more but not too much more. How is this countered?
There's really no substitute for good leadership. If your boss doesn't rewards and respect you for being awesome then go to a company that does. It's that simple. The good boss might give you a grandiose title or not, it shouldn't matter.
The thing about titles is very true often senior or junior means two very different things to different companies in this industry. Just follow the money.
"You have no "experience". Whatever history you had of how you gained your knowledge is gone. Your past is unknown to this new group of people and nothing you say about it makes any sense to them.'"
This question makes no sense to me, nor does your history of posting questions on here.
Based on reading your past questions, looks like you were not a good interviewee and/or lacking in real technical skills.
Communication is the biggest key to getting any position. You need to be able to sell yourself and your abilities. Can you explain what the basics of OOP, MVC, SQL, etc? An inability to communicate these terms, invalidates your technical skills. If you can not explain what an does MVC, how can you implement this pattern into a web app?
You could not articulate common terms that were used in programming during your interview process. At other times, you write about how you can barely program anything outside of a simple app/CRUD, then a bit later are bitching about how simple these tasks are.
Focus on learning how to communicate the terms better. Every profession as certain terms and ideas that they use. Nursing has them, engineering has them, and teaching has them. Programming certainly has them. Sit down and learn the terms.
This question makes no sense to me, nor does your history of posting questions on here.
Based on reading your past questions, looks like you were not a good interviewee and/or lacking in real technical skills.
Communication is the biggest key to getting any position. You need to be able to sell yourself and your abilities. Can you explain what the basics of OOP, MVC, SQL, etc? An inability to communicate these terms, invalidates your technical skills. If you can not explain what an does MVC, how can you implement this pattern into a web app?
You could not articulate common terms that were used in programming during your interview process. At other times, you write about how you can barely program anything outside of a simple app/CRUD, then a bit later are bitching about how simple these tasks are.
Focus on learning how to communicate the terms better. Every profession as certain terms and ideas that they use. Nursing has them, engineering has them, and teaching has them. Programming certainly has them. Sit down and learn the terms.
Demonstration is the best path forward. Show, dont tell, your abilities. The rest of my comment assumes this is based on a real life issue.
Youre interviewing at the wrong place, with people you shouldnt work with. When leveling a candidate two things matter, technical knowledge & leadership. Ive literally never heard anyone suggest leveling a candidate based on work history. Experience might affect comp, or indicate retention issues, but it _does not_ affect leveling.
To qualify my argument Ive a decade of experience. Ive been in "senior" roles for the last 4. Ive worked in a couple 4 man llcs, and a couple multi billion dollar tech cos. Ive probably done a hundred interviews, and ive coworkers in the hundreds and thousand range.
Youre interviewing at the wrong place, with people you shouldnt work with. When leveling a candidate two things matter, technical knowledge & leadership. Ive literally never heard anyone suggest leveling a candidate based on work history. Experience might affect comp, or indicate retention issues, but it _does not_ affect leveling.
To qualify my argument Ive a decade of experience. Ive been in "senior" roles for the last 4. Ive worked in a couple 4 man llcs, and a couple multi billion dollar tech cos. Ive probably done a hundred interviews, and ive coworkers in the hundreds and thousand range.
Can you expand on what you believe is the best way to show your abilities? How do you get pass the gatekeepers? How do you make sure your getting leveled at the right level during the process?
Yes, there are actually people with real life issues who actually face this scenario.
Yes, there are actually people with real life issues who actually face this scenario.
"Gatekeepers" are usually HR, recruiters, or some sort of sourcing agency. Unfortunately resume buzzword bingo is a fundamental of that type of low quality screening.
You can get high quality contacts through other methods. Open source contributions, "published" papers, public presentations, and mailing list comments all provide very good signal for recruiting candidates. Old fashioned networking through peers, user groups, and conventions can not be beat. Those types of contacts usually lead to an internal referral, which is one of the best indicators for hiring.
By "show your abilities" i was thinking of during the interview. When someone asks you how to implement a linked list (ugh) ask questions, use code comments, note edge cases and optimizations, heck write a quick test case to go with it. You can also accomplish via the open source contribution route noted above. A key point is demonstrating knowledge of a problem domain instead of asserting it.
WRT "correct" leveling its very hard to get right. Frankly you, as the candidate, will have a difficult time succeeding with an assertion of "im quite senior". Besides the aforementioned technical ability leadership is incredibly important for senior positions. Its your job to increase the value of your coworkers. A very powerful technique is conveying information through the questions you ask. Asking abiut mentoring opportunities and team growth are positive signals, for example. Ask questions if have concerns during the process. "What types of problems will i be solving" or "how will my work affect customers" might give you insight in to how youre viewed.
By "show your abilities" i was thinking of during the interview. When someone asks you how to implement a linked list (ugh) ask questions, use code comments, note edge cases and optimizations, heck write a quick test case to go with it. You can also accomplish via the open source contribution route noted above. A key point is demonstrating knowledge of a problem domain instead of asserting it.
WRT "correct" leveling its very hard to get right. Frankly you, as the candidate, will have a difficult time succeeding with an assertion of "im quite senior". Besides the aforementioned technical ability leadership is incredibly important for senior positions. Its your job to increase the value of your coworkers. A very powerful technique is conveying information through the questions you ask. Asking abiut mentoring opportunities and team growth are positive signals, for example. Ask questions if have concerns during the process. "What types of problems will i be solving" or "how will my work affect customers" might give you insight in to how youre viewed.
How do websites sink in the ocean? Makes no sense. Link them to stuff you've worked on. Also, a lot of companies do contract-to-hire and there's the whole technical interview gauntlet. That's usually how people gauge ability.
Just seems like an impossible scenario.
Just seems like an impossible scenario.
You would have to be able to demonstrate your experience...
I would think go the showcasing competitive route, hackathons, open source projects, etc. If you can make a spectacular showing there and win the kudos of your peers, that would account for something.
I would think go the showcasing competitive route, hackathons, open source projects, etc. If you can make a spectacular showing there and win the kudos of your peers, that would account for something.
are you now in the witness protection program?
Well, if it's just a book, if no-one's checking on it. (Which seems implied by the book being all the proof of your past life,) Then I'd go to a print shop and make myself a new book....
Your a newly arrived immigrant from Europe. You wanted to make your fortune in the Americas.
During your journey, your portfolio sank with your ship. You have no contacts in the New World. It would take months to years to gather the letter of recommendations from Europe - that is if they are still there and you remember their address from memory. The other evidence of your work is in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean.
A historical notion that still has applicability in today's world. Think refugees.
During your journey, your portfolio sank with your ship. You have no contacts in the New World. It would take months to years to gather the letter of recommendations from Europe - that is if they are still there and you remember their address from memory. The other evidence of your work is in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean.
A historical notion that still has applicability in today's world. Think refugees.
Imagine if you had a large amount of knowledge, a tremendous amount that would rival any senior technical lead in the field of your choice. You don't know everything but you know you have more knowledge about your field then most the people in the room.
The problem? You have no "experience". Whatever history you had of how you gained your knowledge is gone. Your past is unknown to this new group of people and nothing you say about it makes any sense to them. The only thing that makes sense to them is the knowledge you have of your field.
The obvious answer is to start from the very bottom and spend years fighting your way back up from your pigeonholed existence. But, what other options are there? You know a lot but you have nothing to show for it.