Ask HN: Considering a move to the Bay Area with a family. Where should I live?
9 comments
I think of renting in the bay area much as I do of jobs and careers in the bay area- almost nobody's in it for the long (5+-year) term, so it makes sense to go for what makes sense now (within a longer term plan) and then readjust as your conditions change.
The cheapest rents within a reasonable commute of MV are going to be in East Palo Alto. These are still ridiculously high (compared to other metro areas), and the crime rate there is the highest on the peninsula (still very tame by most big city standards; I've never been in another metro area where most residents don't really in their gut understand what crime is).
Many people put up with the commute from the east bay, and Union City/Fremont can save you a few hundred dollars a month on rent. Run your hourly rate against the hours spent in traffic and the east bay probably comes out behind. If your wife wants a social life while she stays home, there's probably a little bit more of that in the east bay (from personal experience, there's just not very much room for that in Silicon Valley- nearly everyone's there to work to make the rent or mortgage).
Best wishes- if you're coming from a smaller place you may find your perceived standard of living is quite low for the amount of wealth and income that everybody seems to have.
In order to guide you better, may want to give us an impression of what metro area you're coming from.
The cheapest rents within a reasonable commute of MV are going to be in East Palo Alto. These are still ridiculously high (compared to other metro areas), and the crime rate there is the highest on the peninsula (still very tame by most big city standards; I've never been in another metro area where most residents don't really in their gut understand what crime is).
Many people put up with the commute from the east bay, and Union City/Fremont can save you a few hundred dollars a month on rent. Run your hourly rate against the hours spent in traffic and the east bay probably comes out behind. If your wife wants a social life while she stays home, there's probably a little bit more of that in the east bay (from personal experience, there's just not very much room for that in Silicon Valley- nearly everyone's there to work to make the rent or mortgage).
Best wishes- if you're coming from a smaller place you may find your perceived standard of living is quite low for the amount of wealth and income that everybody seems to have.
In order to guide you better, may want to give us an impression of what metro area you're coming from.
I am not sure that East Palo Alto is a good first place to live for someone. It gets a bad rep for the bad schools, crime rate, etc.
Currently in Asheville, North Carolina. Lived for six years in Boston, which is not as expensive as the Bay Area but certainly isn't cheap.
Asheville is hugely cheaper than the Bay, but isn't particularly cheap by its local standards.
Asheville is hugely cheaper than the Bay, but isn't particularly cheap by its local standards.
How are you enjoying Asheville? I've always entertained dreams of moving there because I love the woods and being around nature, but I also don't want to be disconnected from the music scene, happenings in the art world etc.
Asheville
- The good:
It's gorgeous. Really. One of the most beautiful places in the country.
The art and music scene here will not compare to a New York or a San Francisco, but compared to other half a million person small cities Asheville punches waaaay over its weight class. Its art and music scene is better than many medium sized (2-4 million) cities. There are lots of festivals too, like this: http://mountainoasisfestival.com
The food here is incredible. It's easily as good or better than the food you will find in Boston and New York. It is difficult to find a bad restaurant downtown.
There is, of course, tons of beautiful outdoors stuff to do: hiking, biking, kayaking, backpacking, mountain climbing, just about anything except skiing (it's the South, no snow). There's lakes not far away too, including some that permit power boating. So there is that kind of skiing.
Weather is nice. It can get a little cold/snowy in the winter. Hard winters are not unknown but are rare. Last winter was very mild. Summers are warm but since it's up in the mountains you do not get the soul crushing Southern heat you get in, say, Atlanta or Orlando.
If you are a single heterosexual man... well... you will probably like it. I'm not so it doesn't matter to me, but if I were I would not have been disappointed.
If you're gay, I know there's a decent gay scene. I'm not so I can't talk about that from first hand experience. It's also generally a pretty tolerant place.
Finally, downtown is alive. Unlike most interior cities, Asheville revolves around its center. There are lots of people walking around and lots of people (including me) live right in the middle of the city.
- The bad:
It's a small town. It can feel small after a while.
The tech scene is so-so. There are a few decent startups and a few major employers, but keep in mind this is a small city. If you're looking for a hot tech scene you'll be disappointed. Personally I kinda wanted a break from that, so I didn't care. I found a good job and picked up some very interesting freelance work. If I turn down the Silicon Valley offer I may go more in a freelance direction, and try to bootstrap my own startup project too.
Asheville is an island amid the pentecostal / fundamentalist Christian back country of Appalachia. Drive for 30 minutes in any direction and you are in the hiiieeeeells.
The job market frankly sucks for most people. If you're in tech -- and especially if you can freelance/telecommute -- you can escape it to some extent. But the joke is that Asheville has the "best educated wait staff in the country." It's not really a joke. Underemployment is a huge problem.
And real estate here including rent is not cheap when you compare it to the median income. It looks cheap compared to Silicon Valley, but SV also has a lot of high salaries that you'd find it hard to earn here (unless you can telework / freelance / startup). The RE market is distorted because Asheville is a major vacation and retirement destination.
You have to advance your own dreams or career goals. Unlike big, driven cities, the city's culture will not push you. It is easy to get comfortable and give up. (This is a problem outside any of the major cities, honestly.)
- The good:
It's gorgeous. Really. One of the most beautiful places in the country.
The art and music scene here will not compare to a New York or a San Francisco, but compared to other half a million person small cities Asheville punches waaaay over its weight class. Its art and music scene is better than many medium sized (2-4 million) cities. There are lots of festivals too, like this: http://mountainoasisfestival.com
The food here is incredible. It's easily as good or better than the food you will find in Boston and New York. It is difficult to find a bad restaurant downtown.
There is, of course, tons of beautiful outdoors stuff to do: hiking, biking, kayaking, backpacking, mountain climbing, just about anything except skiing (it's the South, no snow). There's lakes not far away too, including some that permit power boating. So there is that kind of skiing.
Weather is nice. It can get a little cold/snowy in the winter. Hard winters are not unknown but are rare. Last winter was very mild. Summers are warm but since it's up in the mountains you do not get the soul crushing Southern heat you get in, say, Atlanta or Orlando.
If you are a single heterosexual man... well... you will probably like it. I'm not so it doesn't matter to me, but if I were I would not have been disappointed.
If you're gay, I know there's a decent gay scene. I'm not so I can't talk about that from first hand experience. It's also generally a pretty tolerant place.
Finally, downtown is alive. Unlike most interior cities, Asheville revolves around its center. There are lots of people walking around and lots of people (including me) live right in the middle of the city.
- The bad:
It's a small town. It can feel small after a while.
The tech scene is so-so. There are a few decent startups and a few major employers, but keep in mind this is a small city. If you're looking for a hot tech scene you'll be disappointed. Personally I kinda wanted a break from that, so I didn't care. I found a good job and picked up some very interesting freelance work. If I turn down the Silicon Valley offer I may go more in a freelance direction, and try to bootstrap my own startup project too.
Asheville is an island amid the pentecostal / fundamentalist Christian back country of Appalachia. Drive for 30 minutes in any direction and you are in the hiiieeeeells.
The job market frankly sucks for most people. If you're in tech -- and especially if you can freelance/telecommute -- you can escape it to some extent. But the joke is that Asheville has the "best educated wait staff in the country." It's not really a joke. Underemployment is a huge problem.
And real estate here including rent is not cheap when you compare it to the median income. It looks cheap compared to Silicon Valley, but SV also has a lot of high salaries that you'd find it hard to earn here (unless you can telework / freelance / startup). The RE market is distorted because Asheville is a major vacation and retirement destination.
You have to advance your own dreams or career goals. Unlike big, driven cities, the city's culture will not push you. It is easy to get comfortable and give up. (This is a problem outside any of the major cities, honestly.)
I'm glad to see your question, because I'm asking similar questions! The housing market seems prohibitive for a family to move to the area, especially for someone who wants to keep their family as their main priority.
Have you looked south, to Morgan Hill or Gilroy? That's a longer commute, but it seems like you can get more for your money. And many companies offer shuttles so you can at least avoid some of the traffic pain.
I've also read that the housing market is very competitive, and there are many offers on houses. So if you look for real estate and find things you might like, that doesn't mean you'll get it. You may end up settling for what's left over after the cash buyers with offers 10% over asking price have cleaned up the good stuff.
If I were single or even young and married with no kids, I'd make the move in a heartbeat just for the sense of adventure and to see what happened. With kids and a family (especially kids in middle school), it's not so easy. It's important to settle somewhere good on the first try and not risk moving around a lot. It seems very daunting to find a place to live, with good schools, a safe and nice neighborhood, with a commute that is doable, and a house that isn't a million dollars.
I guess you can't have it all.
Have you looked south, to Morgan Hill or Gilroy? That's a longer commute, but it seems like you can get more for your money. And many companies offer shuttles so you can at least avoid some of the traffic pain.
I've also read that the housing market is very competitive, and there are many offers on houses. So if you look for real estate and find things you might like, that doesn't mean you'll get it. You may end up settling for what's left over after the cash buyers with offers 10% over asking price have cleaned up the good stuff.
If I were single or even young and married with no kids, I'd make the move in a heartbeat just for the sense of adventure and to see what happened. With kids and a family (especially kids in middle school), it's not so easy. It's important to settle somewhere good on the first try and not risk moving around a lot. It seems very daunting to find a place to live, with good schools, a safe and nice neighborhood, with a commute that is doable, and a house that isn't a million dollars.
I guess you can't have it all.
I was in almost the exact situation as you about a year ago.
I had an offer in hand from a well known company in Palo Alto to join one of their innovation labs. From a career standpoint, it would have been a game changer.
However, like yourself, I have a young family with small children that I like to spend time with. Moving from Texas to the Bay Area would have quadrupled our cost of living, for only a modest increase in salary compared to other, work-from-home opportunities I was getting. So I chose to take one of those other opportunities.
The conclusion I've reached is this: if you didn't start your career in Silicon Valley or SF, it is exceedingly difficult to adjust your life to fit in there when you are more experienced and have family responsibilities.
If you still want to do it, I would suggest renting for a year in Mountain View, Menlo Park, or Palo Alto. If you don't mind a little bit of a drive, you can look at Redwood City or San Mateo. Don't worry about the "long view" as you will need to gauge the situation after you get there and don't be at all surprised if after a year, your family wants to move out.
Feel free to email me if you have more questions. Email is in my profile.
I had an offer in hand from a well known company in Palo Alto to join one of their innovation labs. From a career standpoint, it would have been a game changer.
However, like yourself, I have a young family with small children that I like to spend time with. Moving from Texas to the Bay Area would have quadrupled our cost of living, for only a modest increase in salary compared to other, work-from-home opportunities I was getting. So I chose to take one of those other opportunities.
The conclusion I've reached is this: if you didn't start your career in Silicon Valley or SF, it is exceedingly difficult to adjust your life to fit in there when you are more experienced and have family responsibilities.
If you still want to do it, I would suggest renting for a year in Mountain View, Menlo Park, or Palo Alto. If you don't mind a little bit of a drive, you can look at Redwood City or San Mateo. Don't worry about the "long view" as you will need to gauge the situation after you get there and don't be at all surprised if after a year, your family wants to move out.
Feel free to email me if you have more questions. Email is in my profile.
You looking for an apartment or a house to rent? An apartment may be a bit easier to find, but rents right now are pretty high. My business partner just went through this exercise for her sister and it was not fun to say the least.
I live mid peninsula - meaning Belmont, and know the area around me pretty well after living here some 25+ years.
Foster city is pretty kid friendly and a bit cheaper, but be prepared for finding a place to be a challenge in general.
The commute to MV by car can be a nightmare depending on time of day, you may consider taking the train to MV and biking to the office.
Redwood city and Menlo park are also options, but neighborhoods in these areas area a lot like New York City, a block or two can be a HUGE difference in neighbors and whether or not you will feel comfortable.
I live mid peninsula - meaning Belmont, and know the area around me pretty well after living here some 25+ years.
Foster city is pretty kid friendly and a bit cheaper, but be prepared for finding a place to be a challenge in general.
The commute to MV by car can be a nightmare depending on time of day, you may consider taking the train to MV and biking to the office.
Redwood city and Menlo park are also options, but neighborhoods in these areas area a lot like New York City, a block or two can be a HUGE difference in neighbors and whether or not you will feel comfortable.
An apartment initially, probably a lower cost (in Bay Area terms) one at first, but my thoughts are more long term. I would eventually like to contemplate renting something on a long term basis or buying. The latter seems almost unattainable unless I want to go all the way down to South San Jose or similar, but I'm curious about what locals think and I know there's a lot of SF people on this site.
BTW: the thing that has me floored is that the offer would be jaw-droppingly good anywhere else, but has me wondering if it's worth it in the Bay Area. Your real estate costs are mind-numbingly insane. In the long term something has to be done about this or employers are going to start fleeing the area in search of reasonable wage environments, because employees in the valley have to ask for at least 50% higher wages simply to break even with other places.
What are your thoughts on east bay: Newark and Fremont and such?
BTW: the thing that has me floored is that the offer would be jaw-droppingly good anywhere else, but has me wondering if it's worth it in the Bay Area. Your real estate costs are mind-numbingly insane. In the long term something has to be done about this or employers are going to start fleeing the area in search of reasonable wage environments, because employees in the valley have to ask for at least 50% higher wages simply to break even with other places.
What are your thoughts on east bay: Newark and Fremont and such?
I was born and raised in the area (born at Stanford. Went to high schools in Mountain View and San Jose) and can tell you that the high prices and wages are nothing new. I remember saying the same thing as you back in the 80's. (re: "employers are going to start fleeing...") Needless to say, it never happened! And I doubt it ever will.
Speaking of South San Jose, that's where I last lived (before leaving the area) and commuted all the way to Palo Alto every day. It wasn't so bad back in the 80's (around 30 minutes) but I have no idea what it's like now. Maybe it's better!
I have a sister who still lives there and is a top-notch real-estate agent. I'm sure she'd be happy to help with any questions. Let me know if you need her number.
Speaking of South San Jose, that's where I last lived (before leaving the area) and commuted all the way to Palo Alto every day. It wasn't so bad back in the 80's (around 30 minutes) but I have no idea what it's like now. Maybe it's better!
I have a sister who still lives there and is a top-notch real-estate agent. I'm sure she'd be happy to help with any questions. Let me know if you need her number.
OK depending on the specific area.
If your a morning person, look at Livermore - long commute but if you hit the commute early you will be fine.
Also look at Halfmoon bay on the coast, another long commute but REALLY nice coastal town, As long as your on the road by 6:30am you will be OK
If your a morning person, look at Livermore - long commute but if you hit the commute early you will be fine.
Also look at Halfmoon bay on the coast, another long commute but REALLY nice coastal town, As long as your on the road by 6:30am you will be OK
I moved to San Jose from a small NY town back in 2007. What I quickly realized that is that 30-45 mins away is very wide spread and there are times when driving an hour might not get you very far :-)
If the job is in Mountain View, maybe consider Sunnyvale, Cupertino. Morgan Hill would take you 45-1hr with good traffic. Longer at times. Santa Clara.
There is Fremont/Union City but that is outside 30-45 mins usually, I would say. I dont know about the schools.
Really good schools in Cupertino, but higher rent and house prices for sure.
E-Mail in profile you wanna chat about this.
If the job is in Mountain View, maybe consider Sunnyvale, Cupertino. Morgan Hill would take you 45-1hr with good traffic. Longer at times. Santa Clara.
There is Fremont/Union City but that is outside 30-45 mins usually, I would say. I dont know about the schools.
Really good schools in Cupertino, but higher rent and house prices for sure.
E-Mail in profile you wanna chat about this.
You're probably looking for something like San Mateo. Midway between San Francisco and Mountain View, so you're not committed to South Bay companies. Relatively(!) affordable and family friendly.
Ask your new employer for a realtor recommendation, talk to him/her. You have not internalized how expensive the area is and how bad the traffic is. The bridges and the freeways are maxed out during commute. Each city has good areas and not so good areas often next to each other. Newark and Fremont are at least an hour each way to MV. Live close to MV or close to a CalTrain Station.
For schools, your choices are Palo Alto, Menlo Park, or a private school.
I agree, we moved to Belmont for the schools but have both our kids in private school - hence we are broke.
One not obvious issue with schools is the local demographics are NOT always in sync with the student body demographics.
Menlo Park which has a high income tax base has a mixed group of students. The wealthy families put their kids in private schools, the result is a student body out of sync with the local demographics. I would of never expected this but one of our close friends is a teacher in Menlo Park/Atherton and has to put her kids in private schools vs the local public schools in Menlo/Atherton district.
One not obvious issue with schools is the local demographics are NOT always in sync with the student body demographics.
Menlo Park which has a high income tax base has a mixed group of students. The wealthy families put their kids in private schools, the result is a student body out of sync with the local demographics. I would of never expected this but one of our close friends is a teacher in Menlo Park/Atherton and has to put her kids in private schools vs the local public schools in Menlo/Atherton district.
I've encountered this kind of sentiment elsewhere too. It's incredible... not even New York could make a solid six-figure offer almost look like a Wal-Mart wage.
The school situation is puzzling to me. The tax base should be fine, and the majority of the schools I see get high ratings on a nationwide basis. Is this genuinely a problem, or is a Valley resident's idea of a bad school one where the majority of the graduates do not get into top-ten universities? Cause my idea of a bad school is one where you have to go through a metal detector to get in and the majority of their graduates go nowhere. :)
Great tip about the traffic too. I went off Google directions, and I'm guessing those times are for light non-rush-hour traffic.
The school situation is puzzling to me. The tax base should be fine, and the majority of the schools I see get high ratings on a nationwide basis. Is this genuinely a problem, or is a Valley resident's idea of a bad school one where the majority of the graduates do not get into top-ten universities? Cause my idea of a bad school is one where you have to go through a metal detector to get in and the majority of their graduates go nowhere. :)
Great tip about the traffic too. I went off Google directions, and I'm guessing those times are for light non-rush-hour traffic.
when you inch along in traffic, you can be 15 mins to your destination for a long time.
Just going through the same thing with my wife and 2 kids. We thought California might be good for a lifestyle change, but I'm not sure of the valley is the place.
My employer has offices in Sunnyvale and Costs Mesa. But I'm finding the real estate a little crazy.
My employer has offices in Sunnyvale and Costs Mesa. But I'm finding the real estate a little crazy.
It would involve relocation to Silicon Valley, so evaluating the possibility of living there is a major part of evaluating the offer.
First, some background: I love tech and love to build things, but I also love other things too. I have a family and a five month old baby, and my wife wants to stay home while our kids are young and I support this as well. I am quite interested in developing my career, but I have no interest in becoming an unbalanced workaholic. I also want to have a life, pursue other things, and spend time with the people I love.
It's not the job I'm concerned about here. It's the real estate hyperinflation of the valley and the culture that this engenders.
So what I'm looking for is: if I want to lead a balanced life with a family, where should I live? Is there anywhere in the Bay Area (commutable to Mountain View in <30-45 minutes) that isn't unattainably expensive and where my wife and kids would feel comfortable living?
I'm looking for cultural insight, since financial insight is something I can do myself. I've already made a number of spreadsheets.
Edit: I'm more interested in the long view-- in neighborhoods we could eventually call home. I'm interested in areas where being a stay at home mom for a while isn't terribly weird, where our kids would have other kids to play with, and where the cost isn't so astronomical that it's going to eat up any advantage from the job's compensation.