Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality just got several fascinating updates(hpmor.com)
hpmor.com
Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality just got several fascinating updates
http://hpmor.com
15 comments
While Harry is ridiculously overpowered, his enemies are correspondingly scary.
Eliezer won't abandon this fic. If I recall correctly, there is one last arc left after the current one one. Though I would't count on it before next year.
Eliezer won't abandon this fic. If I recall correctly, there is one last arc left after the current one one. Though I would't count on it before next year.
Not just his enemies. For me, a number of the most memorable flourishes of the book are how formidable it makes some of the other people, at least in some respects --- the defense professor especially, but at various points in the story he turns the formidability firehose on people like Hermione and Aurors and the prankster brothers. It's a bit of a dramatic problem, actually, because it leaves people who haven't been sprayed looking so ineffectual that it's hard to understand why they take up so much dramatic space. E.g., I think the story would work better if Draco got more formidability to justify his apparent importance. At least Draco could have gotten a chance to win big by applying some of the applied organization theory tips from his father, perhaps by being the one to deploy effective staff/delegation/incentive techniques in the war games. Or the unimpressive frontline support security provided by his father could be backed by a second-line security specialist chosen by his father who shows up on call and gets some of the formidability and formidabilitytrainer love that the story gives to Aurors and defense professors.
Err, Draco sounded pretty formidable to me. He came close to overcome his education, and even did overcome it to some extent. Crabbe and Goyle are very apt bruisers, formidable broomstick riders, and once showed a rather sophisticated education (being able to change the level of politeness at will without sounding fake is quite a feat at that age --"Da boss want to speak with ya" vs "Mr Malfoy requests an audience with you").
Your suggestions do sound good, though.
Your suggestions do sound good, though.
On Harry being a Mary Sue: That kind of depends what meaning you use.
If you mean the self-insertion, I think that's not too bad. Yes, Harry's reasoning is similar to Yudkowski's, but that's kind of the whole point of the fic. It's not like Harry is a copy of EY himself.
If you mean being idealized and overpowered, I agree. The only part so far where things went wrong because he didn't think fast enough or consider all the possibilities is in the most recent chapters.
On it not updating often enough: Totally, but up to chapter 96 will be released over the next few days, so you may want to stick around for a little longer.
If you mean the self-insertion, I think that's not too bad. Yes, Harry's reasoning is similar to Yudkowski's, but that's kind of the whole point of the fic. It's not like Harry is a copy of EY himself.
If you mean being idealized and overpowered, I agree. The only part so far where things went wrong because he didn't think fast enough or consider all the possibilities is in the most recent chapters.
On it not updating often enough: Totally, but up to chapter 96 will be released over the next few days, so you may want to stick around for a little longer.
> If you mean the self-insertion, I think that's not too bad. Yes, Harry's reasoning is similar to Yudkowski's, but that's kind of the whole point of the fic. It's not like Harry is a copy of EY himself.
FYI, Eliezer has explicitly stated that Harry is sometimes wrong and that he disagrees with him. He hasn't given specifics AFAIK.
FYI, Eliezer has explicitly stated that Harry is sometimes wrong and that he disagrees with him. He hasn't given specifics AFAIK.
I wouldn't call it a "great work of literature" - but I would call it a work of literature, and, as you put it, a delightful and addictive one.
If you've not read this yet, don't start... unless you have a weekend to spend on it.
HP & the MoR is one of the most compulsive and intelligent reading experiences out there. Comparable to the late Iain M Banks in compulsion, imho, and half again as clever and witty.
HP & the MoR is one of the most compulsive and intelligent reading experiences out there. Comparable to the late Iain M Banks in compulsion, imho, and half again as clever and witty.
Actually, you've made a good pitch for Iain M. Banks, haven't read him yet, but if it's half as good... :)
The inverse of half again is two thirds. Just sayin'. :)
You are in for a treat.
Out of interest, how many people recommending this usually read fanfiction? Because I gave it a try a good while back but got a bit frustrated with it. It seemed to read more as a parody (albeit a good one) rather than something more faithful to the characters.
I have never read any other fanfiction but I found this series a good primer on modern logic and fun idle reading.
Unfortunately, it has a few cringeworthy moments and tropes[1]. It is definitely precocious at parts and not hard to draw the parallels with the whole Übermensch/Singularity thing (though to my understanding, the author has distanced himself from the organization and is currently at MIRI).
My chief criticism would be that it is overly bashful of the original Harry Potter story logic but lacks a tight plot through the second half. (Admittedly something very difficult to do with serialized fiction.) Up until chapter 87 I got the feel the story went off the rails, but the last few updates have been very interesting (no spoilers.)
If you enjoyed Snow Crash and do not mind fantasy, you would probably be into this. Don't take it too seriously and keep in mind it is about 1000 pages now.
[1] In particular: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue / http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MartyStu
Unfortunately, it has a few cringeworthy moments and tropes[1]. It is definitely precocious at parts and not hard to draw the parallels with the whole Übermensch/Singularity thing (though to my understanding, the author has distanced himself from the organization and is currently at MIRI).
My chief criticism would be that it is overly bashful of the original Harry Potter story logic but lacks a tight plot through the second half. (Admittedly something very difficult to do with serialized fiction.) Up until chapter 87 I got the feel the story went off the rails, but the last few updates have been very interesting (no spoilers.)
If you enjoyed Snow Crash and do not mind fantasy, you would probably be into this. Don't take it too seriously and keep in mind it is about 1000 pages now.
[1] In particular: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue / http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MartyStu
> to my understanding, the author has distanced himself from the organization and is currently at MIRI
MIRI (Machine Intelligence Research Institute) is the new name of the SIAI (Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence). They shed the term "singularity" because it has basically been hijjacked by Ray Kurzweil and his Singularity University (totally not the same organzation). MIRI also gave (or sold) the Singularity Summit to the Singularity University.
I don't recall Eliezer distancing himself from any organization. It's the organization he works for that distanced itself from certain memes.
(Recall that "Singularity" historically meant one of 3 things: Event Horizon, Intelligence Explosion, or Accelerating change. Now, with Kurzweil popularity, it only means the third thing.)
MIRI (Machine Intelligence Research Institute) is the new name of the SIAI (Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence). They shed the term "singularity" because it has basically been hijjacked by Ray Kurzweil and his Singularity University (totally not the same organzation). MIRI also gave (or sold) the Singularity Summit to the Singularity University.
I don't recall Eliezer distancing himself from any organization. It's the organization he works for that distanced itself from certain memes.
(Recall that "Singularity" historically meant one of 3 things: Event Horizon, Intelligence Explosion, or Accelerating change. Now, with Kurzweil popularity, it only means the third thing.)
Interestingly enough, Yudkowsky probably uses these tropes deliberately. He himself is a reader of tvtropes.org[1], he's made explicit reference to using tropes before[2], and it makes senes that someone like Yudkowsky would know exactly which tropes he was and wasn't including.
[1] http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Creator/EliezerYudkows... [2] http://hpmor.com/chapter/7
[1] http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Creator/EliezerYudkows... [2] http://hpmor.com/chapter/7
But that almost makes it worse! Knowingly writing a Mary Sue is almost inexcusable if you're trying to write legitimate fiction (rather than an educational parody). I have nothing against parodies, especially good ones, but I just think they should be labelled as such. It slightly pains me that it's being held up as a good example of fan fiction when, arguably, it's not.
I have mixed feelings about "trying to write legitimate fiction". Sometimes I have distinct feeling the author just abandons all pretense of writing literature in order to get the point across or turn the story in the way necessary for him. OTOH, I have seen stranger (in my opinion) styles being considered legitimate, and even commendable, examples of literature, so who I am to judge? I'd read it as long as it is entertaining and thought-provoking, and stop if it ever stops being so, and I think that'd be enough.
As for labeling, who cares?
As for labeling, who cares?
I'm not sure if you're a fan of HPMOR. I personally am, and I think that this parody would lose a lot of appeal were non-Canon potter not a Mary Sue.
I also don't read fan-fiction at all (this is the only fan-fiction I've ever read), but I definitely don't go around saying it's good fan-fiction. I go around saying it's a good read that makes me laugh and makes me think.
I also don't read fan-fiction at all (this is the only fan-fiction I've ever read), but I definitely don't go around saying it's good fan-fiction. I go around saying it's a good read that makes me laugh and makes me think.
Yeah, I tend to flip past the extended preachy bits, which are really poorly done. The story itself holds up without all that, though, and it's quite engaging.
I've never much read other fanfiction, and I don't mind the parody at all. Actually, it has kind of spoiled the plain HP for me because I just can't take their fixed gold-silver exchange rate seriously any more.
If any setting makes sense to keep a fixed exchange rate between gold and silver, wouldn't it be one where magic exists, including the actual philosopher's stone?
As long as it's not parallel to the standard economy it's fine. In the Harry Potter setting however, there are people with access to both worlds and can easily exploit it (especially if the magic world keeps producing more gold to replace all the missing galleons)..
I don't usually, and maybe that's why I wasn't concerned with faithfulness to character. I read the first Harry Potter, and this several years ago, when it was much shorter. I liked this one a lot better.
I hope, with all the additions, he hasn't gone too far in the direction of education over story.
I hope, with all the additions, he hasn't gone too far in the direction of education over story.
I have read the whole thing. The story is still great, and the education doesn't bother me (it integrates well in my opinion).
I may be biased by my having read the LessWrong Sequences however.
I may be biased by my having read the LessWrong Sequences however.
It's not a single point of departure fic, many of the characters are deliberately significantly different.
Lost two nights to this one. It is definitely the best fan fiction I have read and more so. IMO JK Rowling's version pales in comparision to this, but without the inconsistencies of the original book, this HPMOR wouldn't have been possible. If you've read the original, you owe it to yourself to read this.
If you've not read this, strap yourself in - you're in for a ride. Eliezer, an AI researcher, has created this novel from a simple yet fascinating standpoint - what if Harry was a brilliant rationalist who engaged the magical world from a scientific standpoint? Don't dismiss this because it's a fanfic or incomplete - it introduces rationality, breaks many fantasy and geek tropes, and builds off Rowling's universe in a highly entertaining and thought-provoking page turner (I guess a modernization of this idiom would be "iPad flicker").
I've just realised that this is somewhat the inverse of the Science of Discworld books.
Those books are split into alternative chapters of popular science, and Discworld stories about the characters reacting to our science from their point of view as characters in a fantasty novel.
So you get wizards that accidentally create a "strange" universe full of "roundworlds" and then having them wondering why people don't fall off the bottom, cue chapter on gravity and planet formation. Or in the second one they meet the "God of evolution".
I avoided reading them for years assuming they were going to be full of Dorling Kindersley "Science of Star Wars" type books full of pop-up AT-ATs and cut-away diagrams of lightsabers, but they're among the best pop science books I've read (though, I'm a fan of Pratchett, which undoubtedly helps)
Those books are split into alternative chapters of popular science, and Discworld stories about the characters reacting to our science from their point of view as characters in a fantasty novel.
So you get wizards that accidentally create a "strange" universe full of "roundworlds" and then having them wondering why people don't fall off the bottom, cue chapter on gravity and planet formation. Or in the second one they meet the "God of evolution".
I avoided reading them for years assuming they were going to be full of Dorling Kindersley "Science of Star Wars" type books full of pop-up AT-ATs and cut-away diagrams of lightsabers, but they're among the best pop science books I've read (though, I'm a fan of Pratchett, which undoubtedly helps)
Just gotta say, I don't appreciate the "women in refrigerators" trope.
I read an earlier version of this and felt it had a few very dark moments that, even allowing for it being based off a young adult book, seemed out of place. I've never read the original and so I wondered if this was playing off something in the source material e.g. villains that couldn't really be villainous in an adult way.
The original is full of Dastardly-and-Muttley villains who are evil because it says "evil" on their character sheet; what motivations they have are shallow and their plots are made by Acme.
It's more than that. (spoiler alert)
Generally, only NPCs get to be stuffed into the fridge, so we don't actually feel sorry. This one is different.
Generally, only NPCs get to be stuffed into the fridge, so we don't actually feel sorry. This one is different.
Nope, the classic fridging is: build up a female character and put her on a bit of a pedestal for feminine virtues (check, modulo the character's age, but it's unchanged canon so I can't blame EY), make her a love interest for the male lead (check and not canon), and then callously fridge her so as to motivate the male lead and give the antagonist a moral event horizon moment (check).
You know, I'm more worried about Harry crossing the moral even horizon right now. The antagonist already crossed it in my mind, when he crushed that blue beettle.
Love interest not cannon? While in the end, Harry did end up with Ginny, I thought I recalled some hints something was possible with Hermione (from book 4, I think). I may be mistaken, though.
Love interest not cannon? While in the end, Harry did end up with Ginny, I thought I recalled some hints something was possible with Hermione (from book 4, I think). I may be mistaken, though.
J.K. Rowling hinted at, and smashed it, pretty much hanging a lampshade off the point that "being a female sidekick of a male lead shouldn't mean automatically becoming his love interest".
So does that make Lucius a prequel protagonist, given the previous war? (Trying not to spoil.)
Do you have to have read (or like) Harry Potter to appreciate this? I read several chapters (8 or so) and I actually found the story very distracting from the rationality message.
I would say yes. So much of the world is taken directly from the actual Harry Potter books and a lot of the fun is to see the effect new Harry has on the same world.
I would say no. There are readers who haven't read the original book, and still enjoy the fanfic. I agree that much of the fun is taken away from those, though.
You need some familiarity with the world, though, to get many of the jokes ("In what universe would someone like Hermione get sorted anywhere but Ravenclaw?" - "Ron's just..." "You just don't see any good reason for him to exist?" "Yeah.") and also knowing the story allows you to anticipate certain realities before Harry gets to grip with them. For example, we all know that Voldemort is Professor Quirrell, but Harry doesn't (at least not as far as I've read).
Background knowledge definitely helps with the enjoyment - and imho is the only reason why you'd want to read the JK Rowling books or watch the movies! I mean, I don't dislike the books (I've read them), but they're not much more than decent entertainment (with some of them dragging on, and on, and on).
Background knowledge definitely helps with the enjoyment - and imho is the only reason why you'd want to read the JK Rowling books or watch the movies! I mean, I don't dislike the books (I've read them), but they're not much more than decent entertainment (with some of them dragging on, and on, and on).
I... Agree. I'd advise someone who is reading the fanfic to watch the first two films, then maybe read a summary of the rest.
Is it done yet? I read it when it was half the length it is now, and thoroughly enjoyed it. When it is done I will read it again, starting from the beginning.
I don't know if Eliezer has said anything about how long he intends it to be. A new story arc just started, and it's pretty great. It seems like this could go on for a few more years.
He said that he is done through chapter 96, and implied that it might be the end (said at chapter 86 that there were "2 or 3" arcs left, and arcs tend to be about 4 chapters...).
If you like HPMOR as entertainment (rather than just for educational value), then another fanfic you might enjoy is "A Study in Magic" [1].
It's a crossover between HP and the BBC's "Sherlock", where the Dursleys get killed before the start of the story in one of Moriarty's schemes against Holmes. Holmes and Watson end up adopting Harry and raising him. Harry learns a lot about observation and deduction from Holmes, and makes good use of this dealing with the problems he confronts at Hogwarts. Holmes is not content to act like a normal Muggle parent and ignore the wizarding world once his child leaves for Hogwarts. He takes an active (and not always welcomed) interest in wizard affairs.
[1] http://www.fanfiction.net/s/7578572/1/A-Study-in-Magic
It's a crossover between HP and the BBC's "Sherlock", where the Dursleys get killed before the start of the story in one of Moriarty's schemes against Holmes. Holmes and Watson end up adopting Harry and raising him. Harry learns a lot about observation and deduction from Holmes, and makes good use of this dealing with the problems he confronts at Hogwarts. Holmes is not content to act like a normal Muggle parent and ignore the wizarding world once his child leaves for Hogwarts. He takes an active (and not always welcomed) interest in wizard affairs.
[1] http://www.fanfiction.net/s/7578572/1/A-Study-in-Magic
The index page looks really interesting, the kind of index page that would lead me to read the book. Can someone give a gist of what this fanfic is about?
(I loved the Harry Potter series and I love Nassim Talebs works if that matters)
(I loved the Harry Potter series and I love Nassim Talebs works if that matters)
Imagine if Harry Potter was a little more inquisitive...
In this universe, HP was raised by scientists. So, whenever he is introduced to some new magic, he says "Why? How? What are the limits?"
For example - could one apparate to the moon?
In this universe, HP was raised by scientists. So, whenever he is introduced to some new magic, he says "Why? How? What are the limits?"
For example - could one apparate to the moon?
Also many (but not all) characters have had their competence, intelligence, and in general their power level increased significantly (so that the story stays interesting, given that Harry's intelligence has been greatly boosted too).
Chapter 2 starts with C style #include statement.
If you are just starting this, make it through at least chapter 10 before deciding if you want to stop reading. That's where things really pick up.
I've not seen this before - the first three chapters have had me guffawing something dreadful!
I'm going to have to ration my reading of this...
I'm going to have to ration my reading of this...
I stumbled over this a few years back and decided not to start reading it until Yudkowsky stopped adding to it or at least chunked some subset of the chapters into one or more books. When I read fiction such as this I want there to be a clearly defined beginning and end to the story. Eternal soap-operas, even if clever, aren't for me.
It will end soon. I'd say in a year from now, at most. There is also an e-pub version.
Oh man, how do you stand A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones then?
So, why should an adult choose to read this over actual literature?
At the risk of taking a pithy dismissal a little seriously:
Different categories of books offer wildly different experiences, and the marginal utility of great literature goes down the more literature you read. By reading the best books in different genres you get a far more richer and rewarding experience than by reading only great classical literature (or only the best biographies, or only the best scientific literature).
hpmor is at a local optimum, or at least close to it. It is clever, contains tons of in-jokes and obscure references to geek culture and the book successfully subverts many tropes. So if you liked reading sci-fi or fantasy as a kid or if you like geek culture you probably will like hpmor as well. Try the first chapter or so and see for yourself.
Different categories of books offer wildly different experiences, and the marginal utility of great literature goes down the more literature you read. By reading the best books in different genres you get a far more richer and rewarding experience than by reading only great classical literature (or only the best biographies, or only the best scientific literature).
hpmor is at a local optimum, or at least close to it. It is clever, contains tons of in-jokes and obscure references to geek culture and the book successfully subverts many tropes. So if you liked reading sci-fi or fantasy as a kid or if you like geek culture you probably will like hpmor as well. Try the first chapter or so and see for yourself.
>It is clever, in-jokes and obscure references to geek culture and the book successfully subverts many tropes
Thanks, that's enough to tell me that I wouldn't enjoy it.
Thanks, that's enough to tell me that I wouldn't enjoy it.
I think you are probably not open minded enough to enjoy it anyway, so in your case I'd recommend to skip it and sticking to something with more complicated words and more obfuscated and mysterious messages that allows you to sustain your airs of high culture and intelligence.
It's inventive and clever, extremely well-written, and the combination of a hyper-rational character in a fantasy world setting is unique. Don't let 'but is it literature?' questions deprive you of an enjoyable reading experience.
That said, you probably will get more out of it if you've already read J.K. Rowling's novels, and if you worry about whether something's 'actual literature' or not, I'm guessing you haven't.
That said, you probably will get more out of it if you've already read J.K. Rowling's novels, and if you worry about whether something's 'actual literature' or not, I'm guessing you haven't.
I agree with you in all possible ways.
Counting that your average lifespan will be around 85 years, and you've been reading real literature since you were 14, that gives you 71 years of good reading. That is, if you are lucky enough to preserve your eyesight.
On average, let's say you read about 12 books per year, which gives you the sad total amount of 852 books you'll be able to read in your whole life. In my case, I've still got enough time for 684 more books. Think about this when you go into a library. A whole life worth of books fits into a couple of bookshelves...
There are more authors worth reading than books I'll ever be able to read before I die. So, nope. IMO you should NOT choose to read this over actual literature.
Counting that your average lifespan will be around 85 years, and you've been reading real literature since you were 14, that gives you 71 years of good reading. That is, if you are lucky enough to preserve your eyesight.
On average, let's say you read about 12 books per year, which gives you the sad total amount of 852 books you'll be able to read in your whole life. In my case, I've still got enough time for 684 more books. Think about this when you go into a library. A whole life worth of books fits into a couple of bookshelves...
There are more authors worth reading than books I'll ever be able to read before I die. So, nope. IMO you should NOT choose to read this over actual literature.
This is "actual literature". I say this as someone who greatly enjoys world classics as well as modern writers, everything from Gogol, Tolstoi, Kafka, Dickens, Dumas, and so on...
The only point of reading JK Rowling, imho, is to make HPMOR more fun.
The only point of reading JK Rowling, imho, is to make HPMOR more fun.
Someone so concerned to optimize their reading experience really ought to be reading more than 12 books a year.
If I was reading more than 12 books a year, I wouldn't be so concerned to optimize my reading experience ;)
Anyway, that was just an average, and I was just talking about literature, I wasn't including essays or technical books.
Anyway, that was just an average, and I was just talking about literature, I wasn't including essays or technical books.
So you're happy to read things other than "literature". (Quite right!)
Which makes it a bit strange to say "don't read this, because it isn't literature". (Not your actual words, but I don't believe I'm misrepresenting your meaning.)
As you clearly appreciate, there are many reasons for reading things. Some of those reasons are best served by reading highbrow literature, some by reading technical books. Is there some general principle that makes it obvious to you that there is no good reason that would be well served by reading HPMoR?
Perhaps you have read enough of it to know you don't like it. Perhaps you've found "fanfiction is always junk" so reliable a guide that it would take an enormous amount of contrary evidence to change your mind in any instance. Fair enough, in both cases; but in both cases the actual reasons are much more detailed than "it isn't literature, so away with it".
Which makes it a bit strange to say "don't read this, because it isn't literature". (Not your actual words, but I don't believe I'm misrepresenting your meaning.)
As you clearly appreciate, there are many reasons for reading things. Some of those reasons are best served by reading highbrow literature, some by reading technical books. Is there some general principle that makes it obvious to you that there is no good reason that would be well served by reading HPMoR?
Perhaps you have read enough of it to know you don't like it. Perhaps you've found "fanfiction is always junk" so reliable a guide that it would take an enormous amount of contrary evidence to change your mind in any instance. Fair enough, in both cases; but in both cases the actual reasons are much more detailed than "it isn't literature, so away with it".
What's real literature, then?
According to Goodreads, I've read 438 books so far (it's probably way above that, since it doesn't have that many Spanish language books...), and I'm only 32. So, whomever is reading 12 books a year is being lazy :)
However, most are the literary value equivalent to your average sitcom :)
However, most are the literary value equivalent to your average sitcom :)
I think I read that many books in high school. b^)
My rate has really plummeted recently, but it's not as though St. Peter is going to decide my case based on whether I read the seven volumes of À la recherche du temps perdu in the original French. When you read for enjoyment, no one is grading you. The "real literature" thing is odd.
My rate has really plummeted recently, but it's not as though St. Peter is going to decide my case based on whether I read the seven volumes of À la recherche du temps perdu in the original French. When you read for enjoyment, no one is grading you. The "real literature" thing is odd.
A couple weeks ago, I read 3 books by Lois McMaster Bujold over the span of a week. She writes Hugo winning sf, poignant and thoughtful.
One book a month would be a living nightmare. If that's all I had time for, I would turn my life upside down.
This book really rips after it gets going. It is not for everyone. There are occasional blobs of 'rationality', but nothing like Ayn Rand's interminable philosophical passages. It's a great meta take on Harry Potter. And it succeeds in its own right as an adventure story. Maybe not emotionally, you could argue about that.
One book a month would be a living nightmare. If that's all I had time for, I would turn my life upside down.
This book really rips after it gets going. It is not for everyone. There are occasional blobs of 'rationality', but nothing like Ayn Rand's interminable philosophical passages. It's a great meta take on Harry Potter. And it succeeds in its own right as an adventure story. Maybe not emotionally, you could argue about that.
Which work of literature is it, I wonder, from which you got this idea that min-maxing your life is the way to happiness and fulfilment?
Which one of my words is it, I wonder, that led you to to think I was taking about happiness and fulfilment and not simply about the way I choose which books I want to read? :P
Why do you use criteria besides your happiness and fulfillment?
You could probably pick up one of those leather bound series of 'Greatest Works of Literature' for cheap nowadays. I'd envy your library for its uniformity, at least. I really hate all those different coloured paperbacks...
>There are more authors worth reading than books I'll ever be able to read before I die.
Since you seem like you would have an interesting opinion on this: What books do you feel I should read before I die?
Since you seem like you would have an interesting opinion on this: What books do you feel I should read before I die?
Well, I don't have an actual list, but I usually choose books I think will still be read 500 years from now.
You think HPMoR won't be? It has the kind of intensely devoted (not to say cult) fanbase that preserves things and actively recruits new fans. If your view is that Harry Potter itself won't be read 500 years from now, even if that were to happen it's reasonably common for parodies to outlast the original. If I had to bet on a piece of literature from the last 10 years (say) that would last 500 years HPMoR looks like one of the better options.
Is that a litmus test for quality, or do you plan on being alive five hundred years from now?
If you had read my words, you would know I obviously "plan" to live around 85 years, and the verb «think» would have suggested to you that I don't have an infallible way to know what the people of the future will enjoy reading.
I thought you were asking sincerely, but it seems you're either trying to start a flame with your sarcasm or just not reading through my words.
If I want to read good sci-fi or fantasy I'll pick Bradbury, Asimov, or any other brilliant author I _think_ will still be read in 500 years.
Go and read whatever you like, I couldn't care less.
I thought you were asking sincerely, but it seems you're either trying to start a flame with your sarcasm or just not reading through my words.
If I want to read good sci-fi or fantasy I'll pick Bradbury, Asimov, or any other brilliant author I _think_ will still be read in 500 years.
Go and read whatever you like, I couldn't care less.
I was asking sincerely, you gave me a non-answer.
If you were asking sincerely whether I was planning on living 500 years, you've read way too much Harry Potter.
I have, in fact.
EDIT: Actually, it doesn't have to be like this. I'm sorry for being unnecessarily snarky when you told me how you evaluate books. If I may, I'd like to rephrase my question too: "Keeping in mind specific volumes, what is a book that you could see yourself feeling sorry for somebody having not read before their funeral?"
EDIT: Actually, it doesn't have to be like this. I'm sorry for being unnecessarily snarky when you told me how you evaluate books. If I may, I'd like to rephrase my question too: "Keeping in mind specific volumes, what is a book that you could see yourself feeling sorry for somebody having not read before their funeral?"
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How do you make that distinction before you've read the book?
For new authors, I follow recommendations by friends whose taste I trust, or reviews from people who have similar standards.
For old authors it's much easier, especially for the ones born more than 500 years ago ;)
For old authors it's much easier, especially for the ones born more than 500 years ago ;)
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Aha, so the bible, quran, torah etc then?
Not quite fitting into the literature category, but I've read the Bible out of curiosity and interest for the origins of our culture.
You don't think them fiction, then? ;)
There are two kinds of fan fiction, fanfiction that degenerates from the source material, and fanfiction that generates from it. The former is much more common than the latter but this is without question the latter kind.
Then again, I can understand if you have better things to do, I try not to read books that I'd regret spending the time on later. As a litmus test, if I could revoke having read HPMoR in exchange for the time I used, I wouldn't.
Then again, I can understand if you have better things to do, I try not to read books that I'd regret spending the time on later. As a litmus test, if I could revoke having read HPMoR in exchange for the time I used, I wouldn't.
Because this is one of the more interesting books of recent years, creating an interesting story, showing the tragedy and comedy of a very logical and rational boy who tries to interact with chaos of humanity, and the book manages to work in many discussions of science, rationality, politics, Bayesian statistics, and the potential and limits of each. If this book had used an original setting with renamed characters but was identical otherwise, it would be hailed as a modern genre classic.
If you have any interest in fantasy / sci-fi / or the original Potter setting, this book also deliberately sends up or subverts many of the tropes common to this setting. The application to the fantasy settings is particularly interesting due to the main character attempting to apply the scientific method in a world where people can perform magic and do so without questioning where it comes from, and the book therefore tries to take Clarke's old maxim to its limit.
Is it literature? I personally think so. Will it be read in fifty years? I have no idea and care little. Do adults need to only sit down with incredibly serious books which have been approved by a set of gatekeepers? No. You're missing out on a world of weird and wonderful things if you limit yourself in such a way.
If you have any interest in fantasy / sci-fi / or the original Potter setting, this book also deliberately sends up or subverts many of the tropes common to this setting. The application to the fantasy settings is particularly interesting due to the main character attempting to apply the scientific method in a world where people can perform magic and do so without questioning where it comes from, and the book therefore tries to take Clarke's old maxim to its limit.
Is it literature? I personally think so. Will it be read in fifty years? I have no idea and care little. Do adults need to only sit down with incredibly serious books which have been approved by a set of gatekeepers? No. You're missing out on a world of weird and wonderful things if you limit yourself in such a way.
>If this book had used an original setting with renamed characters but was identical otherwise, it would be hailed as a modern genre classic.
If that were true, then wouldn't it have happened already? 50 Shades of Gray is a famous example of fanfiction that was well-received enough that it got rewritten into a standalone work. I wasn't impressed. I see no reason not to interpret "best fanfiction" as "least stinky poop".
If that were true, then wouldn't it have happened already? 50 Shades of Gray is a famous example of fanfiction that was well-received enough that it got rewritten into a standalone work. I wasn't impressed. I see no reason not to interpret "best fanfiction" as "least stinky poop".
The difference is that 50 Shades of Gray is fanfiction for those who liked Twilight. I didn't like Twilight, and I didn't like 50 Shades.
OTOH, Methods of Rationality is fanfiction for those who were disappointed with Harry Potter.
OTOH, Methods of Rationality is fanfiction for those who were disappointed with Harry Potter.
I'm not in it, but it seems like it has a neat, active community.
Because it might cause them to take themselves less seriously.
The same reason an adult could watch football instead of (insert your favorite meaningful activity here). Some people happen to like it.
But I only say that to counter those people - it's indeed a delightful and addictive read. The only problem is that it updates quite infrequently and is nowhere near done - I had been suspecting that it'd been abandoned. Reading 90 or so chapters (at high speed, due to the addictiveness) only to come to a screeching halt and have to wait months for a few more chapters is not that fun!