Ask HN: Advice on finding a junior developer position
8 comments
Hi JDSD,
I appreciate your candor and motivation to switch gears and go in a new direction. I have some suggestions I'll share. They're just my two cents, so take them for whatever they're worth to you.
First of all, I agree that your inquiries are probably too honest... Or, perhaps, don't really paint you in very good light. It's not necessarily about lying, as much as it is about recognizing that some information without crucial context can be misleading. I suspect your inquiries--as you've described them--are doing just that.
There's lots of good material in your inquiry, I'd just reword it a bit. Rather than starting off by with the fact that you didn't go to school for CS and don't have a degree, start off with the good news. Get them interested. Get them on your side. Then acknowledge some negatives. So start off talking about the projects you've worked on, the languages, frameworks, concepts, etc. that you know. Share your github account. Stress all the value that you bring to the table. Then segue into talking about how "I don't have a degree in CS, and in fact don't have a degree at all; However, this isn't a bad thing. In my case it means that I have a diverse array of experiences that prove useful for stepping outside the box and discovering unique innovative solutions to challenging problems." This wording frames your situation in a positive light, rather than a negative light.
I also wouldn't mention your background in roofing and automotive. It makes you sound blue-collar through and through, and conceptually is difficult to overcome when a hiring manager is considering who to bring in for interviews. And I wouldn't mention your ruptured disk since it makes you sound like a potentially expensive employee to insure. You can express your willingness and desire to work hard and your enthusiasm for development, but be careful about what you share about your past. I know what this is like because when I was going through college I worked part-time in a skilled labor job at a private terminal at the airport. Explaining that past employment to a hiring manager at a bank was tricky. I had to show them how--even though it didn't seem relevant at first--my experience over five years at the airport actually was an asset. I did this by abstracting from the day-to-day and talking about how my position at the airport developed my character (etc.).
Lastly, relocation. This is a really tricky one. Truth be told, in my opinion, the only out-of-town developers who will be contacted by recruiters and hiring managers are those who are at minimum seasoned mid-level developers. Junior developers--even with experience--aren't likely to get many call-backs if they're approaching employers who are in another city or state. The sad truth of employment is that you've got to be local. And this means that you're going to have a take a leap of faith. Pick a city with tons of software jobs and move there. Just being there and showing that you're credible is probably the single most crucial factor. If you want to work in banking, move to a finance hub. Likewise, since you want to be a junior developer (I hear you, that's my goal, too), move to a city with tons of developer opportunities: San Francisco (and the surrounding area), Los Angeles, Seattle, Austin, New York City, Salt Lake City, Dallas, Houston...etc. If you do searches for "javascript" on Indeed.com, the number of results will give you a good (if rough) idea of how much demand their is for developers in a given area.
But yeah, being there is critical. This is why my wife and I and our daughter will be moving to Austin this fall--so I can look for work as a junior developer. Simply saying that you'll move is much different than actually doing it, and employers know this. They'd rather not waste their energy (from their perspective) on possibilities that might not pan out. At least if you're "in-town" then that's one less barrier to getting you in the door. And while remote working is more and more common, it's still less common than working face-to-face in an office, so I'd probably drop that aspect of your inquiry and just focus on how motivated you are as a junior developer candidate.
Best of luck! I hope my advice was helpful. And if you find yourself in Austin, hit me up and we'll grab a beer or something.
I appreciate your candor and motivation to switch gears and go in a new direction. I have some suggestions I'll share. They're just my two cents, so take them for whatever they're worth to you.
First of all, I agree that your inquiries are probably too honest... Or, perhaps, don't really paint you in very good light. It's not necessarily about lying, as much as it is about recognizing that some information without crucial context can be misleading. I suspect your inquiries--as you've described them--are doing just that.
There's lots of good material in your inquiry, I'd just reword it a bit. Rather than starting off by with the fact that you didn't go to school for CS and don't have a degree, start off with the good news. Get them interested. Get them on your side. Then acknowledge some negatives. So start off talking about the projects you've worked on, the languages, frameworks, concepts, etc. that you know. Share your github account. Stress all the value that you bring to the table. Then segue into talking about how "I don't have a degree in CS, and in fact don't have a degree at all; However, this isn't a bad thing. In my case it means that I have a diverse array of experiences that prove useful for stepping outside the box and discovering unique innovative solutions to challenging problems." This wording frames your situation in a positive light, rather than a negative light.
I also wouldn't mention your background in roofing and automotive. It makes you sound blue-collar through and through, and conceptually is difficult to overcome when a hiring manager is considering who to bring in for interviews. And I wouldn't mention your ruptured disk since it makes you sound like a potentially expensive employee to insure. You can express your willingness and desire to work hard and your enthusiasm for development, but be careful about what you share about your past. I know what this is like because when I was going through college I worked part-time in a skilled labor job at a private terminal at the airport. Explaining that past employment to a hiring manager at a bank was tricky. I had to show them how--even though it didn't seem relevant at first--my experience over five years at the airport actually was an asset. I did this by abstracting from the day-to-day and talking about how my position at the airport developed my character (etc.).
Lastly, relocation. This is a really tricky one. Truth be told, in my opinion, the only out-of-town developers who will be contacted by recruiters and hiring managers are those who are at minimum seasoned mid-level developers. Junior developers--even with experience--aren't likely to get many call-backs if they're approaching employers who are in another city or state. The sad truth of employment is that you've got to be local. And this means that you're going to have a take a leap of faith. Pick a city with tons of software jobs and move there. Just being there and showing that you're credible is probably the single most crucial factor. If you want to work in banking, move to a finance hub. Likewise, since you want to be a junior developer (I hear you, that's my goal, too), move to a city with tons of developer opportunities: San Francisco (and the surrounding area), Los Angeles, Seattle, Austin, New York City, Salt Lake City, Dallas, Houston...etc. If you do searches for "javascript" on Indeed.com, the number of results will give you a good (if rough) idea of how much demand their is for developers in a given area.
But yeah, being there is critical. This is why my wife and I and our daughter will be moving to Austin this fall--so I can look for work as a junior developer. Simply saying that you'll move is much different than actually doing it, and employers know this. They'd rather not waste their energy (from their perspective) on possibilities that might not pan out. At least if you're "in-town" then that's one less barrier to getting you in the door. And while remote working is more and more common, it's still less common than working face-to-face in an office, so I'd probably drop that aspect of your inquiry and just focus on how motivated you are as a junior developer candidate.
Best of luck! I hope my advice was helpful. And if you find yourself in Austin, hit me up and we'll grab a beer or something.
Wow. I am really grateful for this response. As I was reading through what you've written, I got the feeling I was putting off a negative image of myself which is definitely not helping my case.
Wording things in a way that highlights my positive aspects is not lying, as you've put it. This puts me more at ease to speak about things I excel in.
I agree that my previous work experience can be viewed as "blue collar". I hadn't considered it may be difficult for a hiring manager to overcome.
And about taking the leap of faith, I think that might be what it boils down to. It's a difficult thing to do alone, but I think you may have given me the push I needed.
I really appreciate the response. I wish you and your family the best of luck. I will record your username and if I end up in Austin I will shoot you a message.
Thanks again.
Wording things in a way that highlights my positive aspects is not lying, as you've put it. This puts me more at ease to speak about things I excel in.
I agree that my previous work experience can be viewed as "blue collar". I hadn't considered it may be difficult for a hiring manager to overcome.
And about taking the leap of faith, I think that might be what it boils down to. It's a difficult thing to do alone, but I think you may have given me the push I needed.
I really appreciate the response. I wish you and your family the best of luck. I will record your username and if I end up in Austin I will shoot you a message.
Thanks again.
I agree that my previous work experience can be viewed as "blue collar". I hadn't considered it may be difficult for a hiring manager to overcome.
It's not the fact that you've done "blue collar" work in the past that's the problem; it's the way you introduced yourself as the guy worried about his inexperience who did "blue collar" work until it became impossible. You should be introducing yourself as a self-taught developer with an unconventional background rooted in hard work.
It's not the fact that you've done "blue collar" work in the past that's the problem; it's the way you introduced yourself as the guy worried about his inexperience who did "blue collar" work until it became impossible. You should be introducing yourself as a self-taught developer with an unconventional background rooted in hard work.
I don't mean to be negative, but a few thoughts:
>I did not go to school for CS, and don't have a degree.
Where do you want to live/work? Depending on where you want to work this may be more permissible or less. In the valley if you have a good rep and past projects this will matter less, but in many places in the US this is actually a non-starter. If you love programming have you considered that working (even part-time) towards a B-S in CS might be worthwhile?
>before rupturing a disk
I'd advise just saying an injury. This is a little bit a case of too much information, esp. for a perspective employer.
>github:....
Everything I see is Ruby. This is fine, people often have a primary language, but you should pick another language, very different kind of language, and write a project in it. This shows people you are flexible and are the kind of professional learner who can re-tool quickly. I'd suggest considering C,C++,Go,Java,Scala or Haskell.
>I did not go to school for CS, and don't have a degree.
Where do you want to live/work? Depending on where you want to work this may be more permissible or less. In the valley if you have a good rep and past projects this will matter less, but in many places in the US this is actually a non-starter. If you love programming have you considered that working (even part-time) towards a B-S in CS might be worthwhile?
>before rupturing a disk
I'd advise just saying an injury. This is a little bit a case of too much information, esp. for a perspective employer.
>github:....
Everything I see is Ruby. This is fine, people often have a primary language, but you should pick another language, very different kind of language, and write a project in it. This shows people you are flexible and are the kind of professional learner who can re-tool quickly. I'd suggest considering C,C++,Go,Java,Scala or Haskell.
I.....I....I'm....I.....
I...I....
And that's your problem. Not a single thing about them. It should read something like this...
I noticed you've been working on innovating in X industry, and I've noticed recently that many folks are moving in X direction. Are you planning on moving in this direction to?
I've recently done a, b, and c. By leveraging b and c, I can help you achieve X. a is note worthy because, while not directly related to x, it shows I have skill f.
I'm looking for jr developer positions that allow me to grow, and projects a, b, and c will help you achieve x (faster, better, more completely, etc)....
Your pitches need to be about how you can help them and less about you. I've sent emails that basically said, "Your industry is heading in x direction, here's what I think about that. Oh, by the way I'm at least good enough to do fizz buzz" and gotten fairly positive responses out of that.
I...I....
And that's your problem. Not a single thing about them. It should read something like this...
I noticed you've been working on innovating in X industry, and I've noticed recently that many folks are moving in X direction. Are you planning on moving in this direction to?
I've recently done a, b, and c. By leveraging b and c, I can help you achieve X. a is note worthy because, while not directly related to x, it shows I have skill f.
I'm looking for jr developer positions that allow me to grow, and projects a, b, and c will help you achieve x (faster, better, more completely, etc)....
Your pitches need to be about how you can help them and less about you. I've sent emails that basically said, "Your industry is heading in x direction, here's what I think about that. Oh, by the way I'm at least good enough to do fizz buzz" and gotten fairly positive responses out of that.
Very good point. Shows more confidence and direction. Even my responses in this thread are inward. Kind of self-involved.
Hopefully this can help someone else in a similar situation. Working on a rewrite now I will share soon.
Hopefully this can help someone else in a similar situation. Working on a rewrite now I will share soon.
1) Your message is a bit confusing. Not sure if you're a developer or designer.
2) If I'm thinking like a hiring manager or founder, it would be a huge risk (for both of us) to relocate someone inexperienced. Remove that part and I bet your response rate doubles.
2) If I'm thinking like a hiring manager or founder, it would be a huge risk (for both of us) to relocate someone inexperienced. Remove that part and I bet your response rate doubles.
Thanks for the reply. I am capable of both, but not really great/expert at either. That is great feedback though. I will clear that up with a small message.
My inquiries usually go as follows, and may be a bit too honest:
I did not go to school for CS, and don't have a degree. I would like to relocate and I'm not really looking to work remotely as I would like the experience working around more seasoned developers.
I worked in automotive and roofing before rupturing a disk, and wasted no time getting into web development and all things related. I know what hard work is.
github: http://www.github.com/jamesdullaghan homepage/portfolio(code can be found in online-portfolio in github): http://www.jamesdullaghan.me Latest project(prototype that hasn't released yet, hence screenshots): http://www.jamesdullaghan.me/articles/5
This isn't a pitch to find work for myself, more what can I do to increase my odds in finding a junior level developer position. I'd also love some objective criticism. Maybe some direction.
It is much appreciated.