The Bloodthirsty Battle For Tech Talent(fastcompany.com)
fastcompany.com
The Bloodthirsty Battle For Tech Talent
http://www.fastcompany.com/3007649/how-win-bloodthirsty-battle-tech-talent
17 comments
Some/most companies have a real problem with the concept of telecommuting/remote working. It's really quite astounding to me: the internet is in more places than ever before, video conferencing, text conferencing, etc, are at all-time highs, yet for some reason companies simply think remote work is unacceptable.
Blows me away.
Blows me away.
I've worked remotely with a strong distributed team. It worked quite well, and I formed relationships on par with the year I worked in-person at another company.
That being said, I'm not very interested in it for my company since it just seems less fun to not be able to hang out with your employees in person. And fun is the reason I do this. I'm still on the fence about it though.
That being said, I'm not very interested in it for my company since it just seems less fun to not be able to hang out with your employees in person. And fun is the reason I do this. I'm still on the fence about it though.
SO your company must have no trouble finding local people? Because fun is your driving hiring metric?
You are too quick to jump on minor details.
So if "fun" is the reason you do it, "fun" must also be the reason your employees do? Do you put this in your job ads as a required skill, doing it for fun, or is it perhaps something you don't say out loud?
Part of having "fun" is also feeling secure and safe in your job. At any rate, I know many people who find it more fulfilling to engage with their team locally, and I'm one of them, and I don't see what's wrong with that (especially since it is my company after all and I'm pretty sure I'm not breaking any laws by stating that).
Well yes, but for startups that doesn't work. Every day you need to look at the results of your product, talk with your team and adjust course. Having remote workers really kills your ability to do that.
Maybe, but not really. Two hours of google hangouts, screen -x, git and CI servers will do you for every conversation you can imagine apart from, let's grab a beer
You have clearly not tried any number of tele-worker suites out there. I use/develop Teamspace and its absolutely capable of all of that.
Completely agreed. I work in Mountain View, CA, but live on the other coast in Maryland. At pycon, I had a couple of companies trying to poach me (despite being a relative nobody), all paying good money™ to get me, but none of them were offering telecommute.
Aside from the fact that I love my company, and my job, the raise offers are always worth considering, but knowing that I'd have to move or go into the office every day made the offers much less appealing.
Aside from the fact that I love my company, and my job, the raise offers are always worth considering, but knowing that I'd have to move or go into the office every day made the offers much less appealing.
I agree! Geography is very valuable to some individuals; Especially with the tools available at this point, it seems strange to value being physically co-located for work.
Too true. The trouble is not enough people are trying to address the underlying problem - the lack of education in our public schools needed to become a desperately desired rails programmer! Computer programming should count as learning another language!
In the meantime in France, we can't get past that PHP/Enterprise Java illness that's been afflicting the dynamism of our net ecomomy for a decade now. Sad.
Not my experience: I'm in France doing Ruby/Rails since 2004/2005, and I'm most likely booked until end of 2014...
So it's more a matter of niches and networks I believe.
So it's more a matter of niches and networks I believe.
Are you in Paris?
Maybe the market is getting bigger for Rails devs there? I left France 5 years ago and the picture was grim then, Java/PHP had a literal death grip on the market. Well, since I'm coming back I guess that's good news :)
Maybe the market is getting bigger for Rails devs there? I left France 5 years ago and the picture was grim then, Java/PHP had a literal death grip on the market. Well, since I'm coming back I guess that's good news :)
I left Paris 3 years ago, since then I've been doing all my work remotely from a very rural place (http://goo.gl/maps/UTIzF).
That said Paris is the best place to get started networking again. Be sure to go to the Paris.rb group which is very dynamic if you come back!
http://meetup.rubyparis.org/
That said Paris is the best place to get started networking again. Be sure to go to the Paris.rb group which is very dynamic if you come back!
http://meetup.rubyparis.org/
> since then I've been doing all my work remotely from a very rural place
Excellent! I'm in Paris but my wife's family is in Charente (Ruffec) and I go there often. We should setup some kind of local meetup group!!
Excellent! I'm in Paris but my wife's family is in Charente (Ruffec) and I go there often. We should setup some kind of local meetup group!!
Sure, would be fun :-) I don't know many technologists around so far, but a good idea!
Thanks a lot, will do.
And here I am, a rails developer trying to move to SF, and I only get maybe a few nibbles a week.
I must not be on the right job boards. Or something. Is the meetup.com ruby list the place to go? Someone also suggested changing my location on LinkedIn to SF - however, I am hoping to relocate, but haven't done so yet, so that seems dishonest.
I must not be on the right job boards. Or something. Is the meetup.com ruby list the place to go? Someone also suggested changing my location on LinkedIn to SF - however, I am hoping to relocate, but haven't done so yet, so that seems dishonest.
Maybe it has something to do with the fact that the author, Matt Mickiewicz, runs developerauction.com. I imagine it is in their best interest to drum up the "talent war," to make it seem like there are no engineers to hire.
My experience tells me that this talent war exists... for the top few percentile of engineers. Where these people are dogged by recruiters and companies alike, there is a sharp dropoff; engineers who are smart but don't win in a tech bingo interview or didn't work at Google/Facebook or didn't go to Stanford get pinged by headhunters but passed over by companies. Engineers who have held jobs at start ups or less prestigious companies, who have authored plenty of CoffeeScript or ObC code for a corporate code base but don't remember how to implement a quicksort or don't have experience with framework x are rejected in the interview phase.
It's my opinion, but I think the "shortage of talent" is really a shortage of patience and mentorship, and a sign of the complete unwillingness of many companies to take a risk on someone.
My experience tells me that this talent war exists... for the top few percentile of engineers. Where these people are dogged by recruiters and companies alike, there is a sharp dropoff; engineers who are smart but don't win in a tech bingo interview or didn't work at Google/Facebook or didn't go to Stanford get pinged by headhunters but passed over by companies. Engineers who have held jobs at start ups or less prestigious companies, who have authored plenty of CoffeeScript or ObC code for a corporate code base but don't remember how to implement a quicksort or don't have experience with framework x are rejected in the interview phase.
It's my opinion, but I think the "shortage of talent" is really a shortage of patience and mentorship, and a sign of the complete unwillingness of many companies to take a risk on someone.
Funny. Sounds like me. I went to a decent but "wrong" school (UVA), lured by promises of a free ride. I missed my tech bingo interviews (and I've had a lot of them), for reasons worthy of a blog post. My first, for instance, with MS, went wrong because Alaska Airlines got my flight in around 1 or 2 AM - for an 8 AM interview the next day. I know I was not at my best.
I am also totally done with Google - it's just not worth 4 months of runaround and countless phone interviews just to come in and fail because one of the interviewers hates the whole process. And last time they contacted me, they told me to learn either Java or Python and call them back when I did. No thanks. Nothing against Python, but I am not putting that much effort into the chance at another interview. I would totally work for a company that did Python, and learn as I go - I've done that plenty before. (Edit: Oh, and the number of interviews google puts you through just should not be allowed)
I spent a year working on my own startup, which is what got me into rails, but it ran out of runway and I was then tied to the area by romance, and got a mediocre job at a huge company. I am no longer encumbered, but my resume lacks any recognizable names (of schools or companies). I've had a lot of other personal projects that never went anywhere and which earn me no points, but at least keep me in the game. (I should have put them all on GitHub, I suppose, but was too embarassed about their unfinished nature to do so).
I also don't get what the obsession is with CS 201 questions. But I keep my data structures textbook around just so I can relearn how to implement A* or remind myself what the big-O of a B-tree delete is before interviews. Of course, at Google I'd need to be implementing these data structures daily(?). I don't have a big problem with them, it's just an odd thing to be obsessed with.
I am also totally done with Google - it's just not worth 4 months of runaround and countless phone interviews just to come in and fail because one of the interviewers hates the whole process. And last time they contacted me, they told me to learn either Java or Python and call them back when I did. No thanks. Nothing against Python, but I am not putting that much effort into the chance at another interview. I would totally work for a company that did Python, and learn as I go - I've done that plenty before. (Edit: Oh, and the number of interviews google puts you through just should not be allowed)
I spent a year working on my own startup, which is what got me into rails, but it ran out of runway and I was then tied to the area by romance, and got a mediocre job at a huge company. I am no longer encumbered, but my resume lacks any recognizable names (of schools or companies). I've had a lot of other personal projects that never went anywhere and which earn me no points, but at least keep me in the game. (I should have put them all on GitHub, I suppose, but was too embarassed about their unfinished nature to do so).
I also don't get what the obsession is with CS 201 questions. But I keep my data structures textbook around just so I can relearn how to implement A* or remind myself what the big-O of a B-tree delete is before interviews. Of course, at Google I'd need to be implementing these data structures daily(?). I don't have a big problem with them, it's just an odd thing to be obsessed with.
What's ridiculous is that these same recruiters are probably blowing up the voicemail of UC Berkeley grads, even though pretty much anyone who could get into UVA could get into Berkeley (in-state preferences aside), and vice versa.
1. Finish just one project (not to shiny-perfect, just to functionally complete) and put it on GitHub. This is to show you can finish something. It's a huge risk mitigator if someone can look at your code. Nobody's code is perfect, but some code is always better than no code.
2. Put the rest of the stuff up on GitHub, with suitable disclaimers, e.g. "I was working on this to learn X ..." Everyone understands (well, everyone I like understands) that creative people have lots of projects in various stages of disarray.
3. Target a few small/midsize startups, not the super-hot ones, and spend 1-2 hours to learn their product. I would be THRILLED to get an email from someone who said "I love what you do, here's three things I would like to work on with you to make it better, are you hiring?"
4. Put up front your willingness/unwillingness to relo. If you have remote working experience, give an overview of that. "Worked remotely for company X for two years, with daily standups, weekly sprint meetings, monthly 3-4 day visits, and two visits of 2 weeks duration 2x/year." That lets me know what you're up for.
2. Put the rest of the stuff up on GitHub, with suitable disclaimers, e.g. "I was working on this to learn X ..." Everyone understands (well, everyone I like understands) that creative people have lots of projects in various stages of disarray.
3. Target a few small/midsize startups, not the super-hot ones, and spend 1-2 hours to learn their product. I would be THRILLED to get an email from someone who said "I love what you do, here's three things I would like to work on with you to make it better, are you hiring?"
4. Put up front your willingness/unwillingness to relo. If you have remote working experience, give an overview of that. "Worked remotely for company X for two years, with daily standups, weekly sprint meetings, monthly 3-4 day visits, and two visits of 2 weeks duration 2x/year." That lets me know what you're up for.
> I would be THRILLED to get an email from someone who said "I love what you do, here's three things I would like to work on with you to make it better, are you hiring?"
What's your company? I'd love to send you that kind of email. :) (My email should be in the HN profile)
What's your company? I'd love to send you that kind of email. :) (My email should be in the HN profile)
oh and one more thing ... have you tapped UVA's alumni network? I went to a good (but "wrong" for the Valley school) & I get calls quite often from people who want to leverage alumni connections into startup introductions. There have to be some UVA people in hiring roles out here!
If you're serious about moving it's not dishonest - people looking for candidates for a S.F. role want you to appear in their search results! Maybe mention your plans to move, and your willingness/ability to interview onsite or remotely via Skype, in your profile summary.
Well, is LinkedIn even the best way?
I get a fair amount of (local, I live near DC) recruiter spam through it, but it's often nothing to do with rails, and it is mostly third party recruiters.
I'm looking for a startup or small-company environment that actually uses rails. Big ERP jobs are easy to find, but the startup jobs are, despite the supposed feeding frenzy, a little bit more scarce on the ground. (Or else I'm not looking in the right place!)
This article mentions at least a few engineers passing on leads to companies that I might actually want to work for; that's what I'm trying to find.
I get a fair amount of (local, I live near DC) recruiter spam through it, but it's often nothing to do with rails, and it is mostly third party recruiters.
I'm looking for a startup or small-company environment that actually uses rails. Big ERP jobs are easy to find, but the startup jobs are, despite the supposed feeding frenzy, a little bit more scarce on the ground. (Or else I'm not looking in the right place!)
This article mentions at least a few engineers passing on leads to companies that I might actually want to work for; that's what I'm trying to find.
You're more than welcome to apply to ApartmentList, I'm currently working there. We're a fairly small profitable company using Rails in San Francisco. You can shoot me an email at [email protected] and we can talk there.
You (and everyone else who asked) should have an email and a copy of my resume, assuming the google drive sharing worked.
Did you check the who's hiring thread? When I was looking a few months ago, it was an excellent source of leads, many of them startups.
When I was in the market, I never saw the kind of rabid attention the OP is describing. Sure, occasional recruiter spam, but no more or less than anyone else.
I can't argue with the OP's experience, but I would take all claims of "super massive talent shortage oh em gee" with a good pinch of salt.
I can't argue with the OP's experience, but I would take all claims of "super massive talent shortage oh em gee" with a good pinch of salt.
It is real. I've had companies calling me after I brush them off.
I do the interviewing for my current company, and we have had a senior role open for 10 months. We have gotten to the offer stage 3 times but lost nonetheless. This is for a rails role.
edit: my boss makes the offers, and I suspect we have been losing out on these positions while making offers around 130-140.
I do the interviewing for my current company, and we have had a senior role open for 10 months. We have gotten to the offer stage 3 times but lost nonetheless. This is for a rails role.
edit: my boss makes the offers, and I suspect we have been losing out on these positions while making offers around 130-140.
10 months is a long time... you could try to hire non-rails experts and then train them...?
I'm under the impression that it's not only recruiters but also companies who try to hire people with the exact amount of experience for the position; but a good Python dev can certainly pick up Rails fast, no?
I'm under the impression that it's not only recruiters but also companies who try to hire people with the exact amount of experience for the position; but a good Python dev can certainly pick up Rails fast, no?
We are open to that. At the moment the source of resumes has been recruiters that were given a certain set of marching orders. It might be worth updating those.
Hey JimboOmega.
SlideShare is looking for Rails devs and we frequently hire people who are moving to the bay area (from Ohio, Texas, France ...)
You can email me at jon AT slideshare DOT com
SlideShare is looking for Rails devs and we frequently hire people who are moving to the bay area (from Ohio, Texas, France ...)
You can email me at jon AT slideshare DOT com
For what it's worth, I found a job in SF as a rails developer while living in a small town in Georgia via the site mentioned in the article, Developer Auction, and it was a great experience.
Send me your resume, [email protected].
Sign up for the SF Ruby group's mailing list. Write a post that you're hoping to move to SF and are looking for job opportunities. Also try directly contacting any companies you especially want to work for.
s/Rails dev/dev/g
^^ Jimbo, Change your LinkedIn profile to say you live in San Francisco. I just moved here a few months back and I get dozens of emails. I have a job, and dont respond to them, but its generally the same pitch ... "VC backed company, wants ruby/rails people, descent money, benefits, yada yada" ..
This has not been my experience, but I haven't posted to meetup.com either.
We've been hiring for a little while in Los Angeles.
The problem is that there are some Rails developers, but most of the ones I've met are pretty entitled.
They expect 100K+, benefits, telecommuting, etc.
The problem is that most of them are fairly incompetent when it comes to everything else.
Ask them about database design, sockets, parallelism, map/reduce, memory allocation, etc. and you'll get blank stares.
This is good though, because it makes people who know those things that much more valuable as well they should be.
Ask them about database design, sockets, parallelism, map/reduce, memory allocation, etc. and you'll get blank stares.
This is good though, because it makes people who know those things that much more valuable as well they should be.
I don't think expecting $100k+, benefits, telecommuting etc necessarily indicates entitlement.
Most people in finance, senior managers, doctors, lawyers, architects, management consultants etc wouldn't get out of bed for less than that, especially in a big city with high cost of living.
I think its great that techies are starting to realise their value and grab a piece of that for themselves.
Most people in finance, senior managers, doctors, lawyers, architects, management consultants etc wouldn't get out of bed for less than that, especially in a big city with high cost of living.
I think its great that techies are starting to realise their value and grab a piece of that for themselves.
What dictates entitlement is asking or expecting something without actually having earned it.
Obviously finance, doctors, and lawyers went to school for many years. They earned it.
Developers, who can't even explain map/reduce or other important CS concepts, have not.
Obviously finance, doctors, and lawyers went to school for many years. They earned it.
Developers, who can't even explain map/reduce or other important CS concepts, have not.
Market value has nothing to do with having 'earned it' or the numbers of years that you have put in at school.
It's a function of supply and demand and the value that the individual can create.
It's a function of supply and demand and the value that the individual can create.
Well now you're arguing market value not entitlement, which I didn't say it was a bad thing.
If you're a Rails dev, yeah you're valuable and you should be getting paid that much.
However, you still have a lot to learn, and if you're asking for telecommuting and you don't even know what a thread is. That's entitlement, because you think that just because you know Rails, anyone will hire you and that you're 'good enough' to work from home.
Developers we'd want to hire don't just know Rails.
If you're a Rails dev, yeah you're valuable and you should be getting paid that much.
However, you still have a lot to learn, and if you're asking for telecommuting and you don't even know what a thread is. That's entitlement, because you think that just because you know Rails, anyone will hire you and that you're 'good enough' to work from home.
Developers we'd want to hire don't just know Rails.
I am arguing that people are not asking for these packages out of entitlement.
They are asking for them out of increased awareness of their market value.
In the end the market will sort this out, and some developers will inevitably be left disapointed.
However, I think it's quite reasonable that techies of all skill levels are pushing for and often achieving the salaries and working conditions that they want.
(I really don't see how asking for telecommuting is entitled by the way. I would love to do it for quality of life and productivity reasons, but that is completely divorced from how well I rate myself etc.)
They are asking for them out of increased awareness of their market value.
In the end the market will sort this out, and some developers will inevitably be left disapointed.
However, I think it's quite reasonable that techies of all skill levels are pushing for and often achieving the salaries and working conditions that they want.
(I really don't see how asking for telecommuting is entitled by the way. I would love to do it for quality of life and productivity reasons, but that is completely divorced from how well I rate myself etc.)
Asking for telecommuting, equity, and time to work on other projects is ridiculous.
I've gotten these requests from developers who have only done basic Rails projects.
Do you think you deserve a better quality of life than say, a teacher? a doctor? I fail to see how even comparing yourself to them is not entitlement, especially if you're not a CS major.
The whole productivity bit is crap, I've been on that side and I know it. You may be more productive, but for very selfish reasons. The business is not more productive, and you isolate yourself from everyone else.
Businesses don't generally fail because of bad tech, they fail because they're not nimble enough to adapt and test ideas quickly.
Do you think you deserve a better quality of life than say, a teacher? a doctor? I fail to see how even comparing yourself to them is not entitlement, especially if you're not a CS major.
The whole productivity bit is crap, I've been on that side and I know it. You may be more productive, but for very selfish reasons. The business is not more productive, and you isolate yourself from everyone else.
Businesses don't generally fail because of bad tech, they fail because they're not nimble enough to adapt and test ideas quickly.
I can't explain map reduce. I generally know what it is but I've never needed to use it or implement it.
That doesn't mean I'm not a good engineer. It just means I haven't done something before.
That doesn't mean I'm not a good engineer. It just means I haven't done something before.
That's great, I don't expect an academic explanation but just having heard of it is pretty good.
That question by itself is not a deal breaker.
An 'engineer' should at least know about things like data structures or just anything beyond Rails.
Most interesting problems require more than knowing how to create CRUD apps.
Yeah, I agree. This is one of the pitfalls of working in a fairly unstructured and nascent industry. Everyone seemingly has their own collection of miscellany and trivia that encapsulates what a Good Engineer (tm) ought to know.
[deleted]
why are you comparing a qualified doctor or lawyer to a web dev who doesn't know anything about database design?
I would argue that it's possible for even an average web developer to create at least a comparable amount of economic value as the doctor or lawyer.
I don't know why our own community find this hard to accept?
We're a rare species who can create massive value for ourselves or our employers. We can build great products that many would pay for, or automate away whole departments of people with our code - not that I take any pleasure from the latter.
And yet we tacitly accept that there should be a whole class of people above us who have the right to earn more because they ground it out at school for a few years?
I don't know why our own community find this hard to accept?
We're a rare species who can create massive value for ourselves or our employers. We can build great products that many would pay for, or automate away whole departments of people with our code - not that I take any pleasure from the latter.
And yet we tacitly accept that there should be a whole class of people above us who have the right to earn more because they ground it out at school for a few years?
An average web developer in no way can compare to a lawyer or a doctor.
First of all, doctors generally save lives. And they have to go to school for at least 8 years. Lawyers, almost just as long.
How long does it take to learn Rails, HTML, and Javascript? A few months?
Average web developers are not that special. However, great engineers for whom Rails is an afterthought compared to what they know, are indeed comparable.
First of all, doctors generally save lives. And they have to go to school for at least 8 years. Lawyers, almost just as long.
How long does it take to learn Rails, HTML, and Javascript? A few months?
Average web developers are not that special. However, great engineers for whom Rails is an afterthought compared to what they know, are indeed comparable.
a web dev who doesn't know databases is like [some creative analogy about a doctor hurting people]
It's practically impossible to be a web developer without knowing anything about databases.
Most of the topics the parent listed are significantly more complex than "knowing about databases", which implies that "database design" in this context isn't simply drawing an ER diagram and correctly identifying the purpose of a foreign key.
Given that the other topics listed include sockets, parallelism & map reduce, my guess is that "database design" might in this case mean distributed database concepts and/or sharding.
Most of the topics the parent listed are significantly more complex than "knowing about databases", which implies that "database design" in this context isn't simply drawing an ER diagram and correctly identifying the purpose of a foreign key.
Given that the other topics listed include sockets, parallelism & map reduce, my guess is that "database design" might in this case mean distributed database concepts and/or sharding.
> 100K+, benefits, telecommuting,
So, a not particularly high salary considering cost of living and benefits too? Where would they get these crazy expectations?
Oh right, the open market.
So, a not particularly high salary considering cost of living and benefits too? Where would they get these crazy expectations?
Oh right, the open market.
That's why i said it's a good thing. It bumps up the base developer salary and makes experienced developers even more valuable. At least those who are able to properly market themselves as such.
$100k+ for a senior developer is really not that much... but. The "properly market themselves" is a catch. I don't seem to be able to 'speak' west coast right, or something. Which is why I find this article about a relocating person interesting.
It's always been this way. When I got out of college, the division of the company I'd been interning with had an office in San Diego that was hiring for skills I had. I wanted to work there since my GF at the time was going to UCSD. Same industry, same company, same division of that company. Already vetted and approved by many months of interning. They wouldn't give me the time of day. Nor would any other companies I applied to out there.
The local (to me) office and several other companies in the area had no problem giving me offers, even though I was putting almost no effort into the local search (since, after all, I wanted to be in SD).
It's somewhat better now, when I'm trying to move to SF - I've gotten a few phone interviews, but nothing like the insanity the article is describing.
Edit: I forgot the original reason I wanted to reply: To mention that I personally have no interest in telecommunicating. I'm a social person, and to me, a lot of the appeal of working for a startup is to be working with peers that I can engage with every day. I don't want (to be) a voice on the phone during scrums that comes to the office once a year.
It's always been this way. When I got out of college, the division of the company I'd been interning with had an office in San Diego that was hiring for skills I had. I wanted to work there since my GF at the time was going to UCSD. Same industry, same company, same division of that company. Already vetted and approved by many months of interning. They wouldn't give me the time of day. Nor would any other companies I applied to out there.
The local (to me) office and several other companies in the area had no problem giving me offers, even though I was putting almost no effort into the local search (since, after all, I wanted to be in SD).
It's somewhat better now, when I'm trying to move to SF - I've gotten a few phone interviews, but nothing like the insanity the article is describing.
Edit: I forgot the original reason I wanted to reply: To mention that I personally have no interest in telecommunicating. I'm a social person, and to me, a lot of the appeal of working for a startup is to be working with peers that I can engage with every day. I don't want (to be) a voice on the phone during scrums that comes to the office once a year.
Ask them about database design, sockets, parallelism, map/reduce, memory allocation, etc. and you'll get blank stares.
You might have better success just advertising for someone who has experience with whatever large data requirement you are working with. Senior engineers can learn the framework if they aren't already familiar with it.
I wouldn't expect a RoR engineer to be very concerned with memory allocation, parallelism or sockets. They are busy building sexy CRUD web applications.
You might have better success just advertising for someone who has experience with whatever large data requirement you are working with. Senior engineers can learn the framework if they aren't already familiar with it.
I wouldn't expect a RoR engineer to be very concerned with memory allocation, parallelism or sockets. They are busy building sexy CRUD web applications.
Well, I've been programming since I was 13, I know everything about how computers work, from asm to HTTP, I've tried databases, parallelism, Haskell, distributed map/reduce, ... but I'm not a Ruby/Rails developer (yet, I grok Django ATM) and not from the US (so remote is the only option), so mostly uncompatible... :(
Honestly, I'd more likely work w/ someone like you and teach them Rails than the opposite.
MVC frameworks are very similar and a good developer should be able to switch easily.
I suspect that employers who only look for Rails developers are hurting themselves.
I suspect that employers who only look for Rails developers are hurting themselves.
It's clear that popping on everyone's radar gets you a lot of attention, but really, how many would follow through all the way?
The article mentions that none asked for any sort of online presence (Linkedin, Github, etc). Perhaps it's because they weren't serious to begin with.
The article mentions that none asked for any sort of online presence (Linkedin, Github, etc). Perhaps it's because they weren't serious to begin with.
Why the downvote? I don't live in the States, but I get emails from recruiters across Europe all the time (I'm a rails dev as well). In my experience they're not as serious as you might expect. Sure, the situation is extreme in SF, but is the signal to noise ratio better?
Honestly this is just a PR piece for DeveloperAuction. "How to win the bloodthirsty battle for tech talent"? Why come use our site of course!
This strip from 1995 sums it up pretty well:
http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/1995-05-22/
I see a number of problems (on both sides):
1. There is no shortage of talent. There might well be a shortage of talent for the price you're willing to pay but that's hardly the same thing;
2. What constitutes "talent" seems to be largely based on social proof. 25 year old Stanford graduate? Offers galore I'm sure compared to, say, the 45 year old University of Iowa graduate. Hell, I get an awful lot of cold calls based simply on listing "Google" on my online profiles (as my employer).
Social proof can be a useful indicator. The problem is that groups tend to self-select down to nothing this way where you end up with a tiny fraction of the group being over-subscribed and the majority struggling;
3. People like to employ people like themselves. So find a company full of MIT graduates and they're likely to hire... more MIT graduates. This isn't just a question of social connections or geographical area either (IMHO);
4. If you pick a high-demand high-cost area like the Bay Area you're obviously going to have a harder time finding and retaining talent and it'll be more expensive;
5. Larger companies tend to treat talent as interchangeable where the only units are the number of warm bodies, perhaps stratified into "junior", "midrange" and "senior" whereas we all know there can be a 10x or greater difference between two engineers in terms of productivity, hence the more productive talent is harder to attract and retain.
This strip from 1995 sums it up pretty well:
http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/1995-05-22/
I see a number of problems (on both sides):
1. There is no shortage of talent. There might well be a shortage of talent for the price you're willing to pay but that's hardly the same thing;
2. What constitutes "talent" seems to be largely based on social proof. 25 year old Stanford graduate? Offers galore I'm sure compared to, say, the 45 year old University of Iowa graduate. Hell, I get an awful lot of cold calls based simply on listing "Google" on my online profiles (as my employer).
Social proof can be a useful indicator. The problem is that groups tend to self-select down to nothing this way where you end up with a tiny fraction of the group being over-subscribed and the majority struggling;
3. People like to employ people like themselves. So find a company full of MIT graduates and they're likely to hire... more MIT graduates. This isn't just a question of social connections or geographical area either (IMHO);
4. If you pick a high-demand high-cost area like the Bay Area you're obviously going to have a harder time finding and retaining talent and it'll be more expensive;
5. Larger companies tend to treat talent as interchangeable where the only units are the number of warm bodies, perhaps stratified into "junior", "midrange" and "senior" whereas we all know there can be a 10x or greater difference between two engineers in terms of productivity, hence the more productive talent is harder to attract and retain.
The 10x figure is pseudoknowledge - something we "all know" that isn't actually true (or that at least we have no good reason to believe to be true), cf. http://vimeo.com/9270320 . In brief: the study that it is ultimately derived from had a tiny sample size (on the order of 30, to wit), and for several reasons the experimental design would have invalidated its results outside the very narrow original focus of the study (which was the relative productivity of batch processing vs. interactive processing on the computing systems of 1968) even if the sample size had been larger.
The 10X figure is true. My study is 30 years of working with a wide variety of people in startup environments. Adding some people makes a project later. Others can manage a whole project alone (if they are LEFT alone).
I would like to think there is a talent shortage.
I pitch that we are in a similar position to Europe post Gutenberg - where they went from 2% literacy rates to 20% in a gut wrenching century. We are going to go from a lot less than 2% of people who are source code literate to that magic 20% in less - in short we are millions of talented people short.
In our generation, the observation talent shortage only occurs at certain ,price points is right - but when you want all companies to have the same code in their DNA as perhaps google or MS, we are so embarrassingly short of people it's a public policy issue not a Market lead one.
But I still laugh at the filbert cartoon - it's just I acknowledge that is true if your definition of talented developer is a software engineer who will write code primarily for a living and perform a sort of back office function. What about the CEO who codes? The deputy CFO?
I pitch that we are in a similar position to Europe post Gutenberg - where they went from 2% literacy rates to 20% in a gut wrenching century. We are going to go from a lot less than 2% of people who are source code literate to that magic 20% in less - in short we are millions of talented people short.
In our generation, the observation talent shortage only occurs at certain ,price points is right - but when you want all companies to have the same code in their DNA as perhaps google or MS, we are so embarrassingly short of people it's a public policy issue not a Market lead one.
But I still laugh at the filbert cartoon - it's just I acknowledge that is true if your definition of talented developer is a software engineer who will write code primarily for a living and perform a sort of back office function. What about the CEO who codes? The deputy CFO?
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You know what is blood thirsty? recruiters are bloodthirsty. Since there is exactly zero barrier to entry when there is a perceived shortage of talent we get a swarm of 'tech recruiters' that looks kind of like Carp do when you through a handful of popcorn into the coy pond.
There is a shortage of chumps however. For the right price you can hire pretty much immediately. What I don't get are people who are technically talented and not working, mostly because they want too much. Sometimes there is a sad sad story about how they were with big corp for 10+ years, went from starry eyed college grad to large mortgage holding principal engineer, and laid off, and now nobody will hire them as a principal engineer's salary. That is a sad story.
There is a shortage of chumps however. For the right price you can hire pretty much immediately. What I don't get are people who are technically talented and not working, mostly because they want too much. Sometimes there is a sad sad story about how they were with big corp for 10+ years, went from starry eyed college grad to large mortgage holding principal engineer, and laid off, and now nobody will hire them as a principal engineer's salary. That is a sad story.
Why are there so few rails devs? Its not as if Ruby is super hard to learn or the rails framework is incredibly complex.
I think I would hire someone for 40k for their first year, train them in RoR and then pay them more their second year. You get 6 months of good work out of them after they're totally trained and at a lower price.
I think I would hire someone for 40k for their first year, train them in RoR and then pay them more their second year. You get 6 months of good work out of them after they're totally trained and at a lower price.
That's an attractive option iff you're training non-programmers and, when you say "pay them more", you are prepared to more than double their wages after they reach journeyman proficiency in Rails. If you expect people to have a CS degree prior to year 1 or react to a 10% raise in year 2 as generous, you would not find the Silicon Valley hiring market offering you as many candidates as you desired positions.
I know that; Let's say it takes 6 months of training to be fairly proficient. you have 6 months after that at a proficiency worth 42k, but you've only paid 40k for the entire year. Then when you raise the salary to 84, you have someone you know works in your company, who is happy with the huge raise, and you've gotten a bargain out of it.
The problem is you have to think a year ahead, but I don't think that's such an issue.
The problem is you have to think a year ahead, but I don't think that's such an issue.
How are you going to keep this hypothetical honor student down on the farm? [1]
In other words, once the employee has the skills to earn $85k, why should she wait six months for her giant raise when she could just switch employers and get the giant raise right away?
Not that this is the reason why the fantasy scenario doesn't work - if it were reliably possible to turn a raw recruit into DHH with six months of training, the fact that we'd have to pay market rates the entire time would be the least of our problems. Indeed, it would not be a problem at all.
A real reason why more companies don't try training up raw recruits is that (a) running a school is a specialized business and (b) the yield is far less than 100%, so it only works at scale. You need to admit - optimistically! - 10 or 20 bright and motivated nonprogrammers in order to graduate one person who, after six to twelve months of training, can be expected to successfully attack problems like:
"A customer has called; he has an obscure problem with his web site. Help him debug this problem over the phone. You have no access to the code or the server."
or
"Here's a legacy codebase that spans 267 files, two major versions of Rails, and three generations of programmers. Improve it. Don't break it, though, because our revenue depends on it."
or
"Here's a collection of 175 cloud instances running in Amazon. Build a system that reliably backs them all up once a day, with no downtime, and that can verify on demand that those backups exist."
or even something as "simple" as
"Here is a Wordpress site with a handful of specialty plugins installed. Here is an empty Git repository. Fill this Git repository with Rails code that implements a site that looks and acts exactly like the Wordpress site."
[1] http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/andrewbird/howyougonnakeepemd... - this song is now 95 years old, so I guess I better footnote it!
In other words, once the employee has the skills to earn $85k, why should she wait six months for her giant raise when she could just switch employers and get the giant raise right away?
Not that this is the reason why the fantasy scenario doesn't work - if it were reliably possible to turn a raw recruit into DHH with six months of training, the fact that we'd have to pay market rates the entire time would be the least of our problems. Indeed, it would not be a problem at all.
A real reason why more companies don't try training up raw recruits is that (a) running a school is a specialized business and (b) the yield is far less than 100%, so it only works at scale. You need to admit - optimistically! - 10 or 20 bright and motivated nonprogrammers in order to graduate one person who, after six to twelve months of training, can be expected to successfully attack problems like:
"A customer has called; he has an obscure problem with his web site. Help him debug this problem over the phone. You have no access to the code or the server."
or
"Here's a legacy codebase that spans 267 files, two major versions of Rails, and three generations of programmers. Improve it. Don't break it, though, because our revenue depends on it."
or
"Here's a collection of 175 cloud instances running in Amazon. Build a system that reliably backs them all up once a day, with no downtime, and that can verify on demand that those backups exist."
or even something as "simple" as
"Here is a Wordpress site with a handful of specialty plugins installed. Here is an empty Git repository. Fill this Git repository with Rails code that implements a site that looks and acts exactly like the Wordpress site."
[1] http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/andrewbird/howyougonnakeepemd... - this song is now 95 years old, so I guess I better footnote it!
I may have missed a step in your reasoning but why are you assuming they have to start with a "raw recruit"?
Why couldn't companies hire actual developers with no previous experience in {some_tech} or {some_framework} and train them in said tech/framework?
It seems companies, just like recruiters, feel safer when they hire a "rails dev" for a "rails position" when in fact a good programmer with zero rails experience would be much preferable to a mediocre programmer who has some rails experience.
PS: the song is excellent but I couldn't find any recent cover; this old guy with a Banjo is killing it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlUExq2hNBU
Why couldn't companies hire actual developers with no previous experience in {some_tech} or {some_framework} and train them in said tech/framework?
It seems companies, just like recruiters, feel safer when they hire a "rails dev" for a "rails position" when in fact a good programmer with zero rails experience would be much preferable to a mediocre programmer who has some rails experience.
PS: the song is excellent but I couldn't find any recent cover; this old guy with a Banjo is killing it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlUExq2hNBU
I think hiring existing developers and training them up is a fine plan. And a lot of companies do just that.
But it works best if you have an existing team, trained in the technology, of sufficient size that it can afford to spend a little time mentoring, and with a long-term outlook.
There are teams like that who use Rails. But, as it happens, Rails is also a favorite tool of brand-new startup teams who are already critically overworked and who probably won't be around in six months. And it's a favorite tool of one- and two-person teams: When a one-person team loses a developer, the new hire has no mentor available. So there's plenty of openings for pre-educated Rails developers.
Mind you, there's also the cynical explanation: It's more "efficient" to advertise for "rails devs" because you can screen the resumes so much faster. Those who can't answer trivia questions about ActiveRecord syntax are out! This would, of course, be dysfunctional. But the whole job-ad system is already so dysfunctional that this particular bit of dysfunction may be lost in the noise.
But it works best if you have an existing team, trained in the technology, of sufficient size that it can afford to spend a little time mentoring, and with a long-term outlook.
There are teams like that who use Rails. But, as it happens, Rails is also a favorite tool of brand-new startup teams who are already critically overworked and who probably won't be around in six months. And it's a favorite tool of one- and two-person teams: When a one-person team loses a developer, the new hire has no mentor available. So there's plenty of openings for pre-educated Rails developers.
Mind you, there's also the cynical explanation: It's more "efficient" to advertise for "rails devs" because you can screen the resumes so much faster. Those who can't answer trivia questions about ActiveRecord syntax are out! This would, of course, be dysfunctional. But the whole job-ad system is already so dysfunctional that this particular bit of dysfunction may be lost in the noise.
But developers know that they can learn on the job. So an offer of "half regular salary, but we'll train you!" is not too appealing. Many companies will just pay regular wages. So we're back to where we started.
You're right. What I meant is that companies trying in vain to find rails developers should hire generalists, regardless of rails experience (at a competitive, normal salary according to the skills/experience of the recruit).
It seems companies only advertise for specific languages or frameworks; maybe they think they need someone capable of hitting the ground running, but if they spend a year finding them... it's pointless.
It seems companies only advertise for specific languages or frameworks; maybe they think they need someone capable of hitting the ground running, but if they spend a year finding them... it's pointless.
I agree, the yield would be a major problem.
In order to solve the problems you mentioned, it's confidence and a particular mindset you need, not simply skill. I had overlooked that.
I think you could actually keep employees, though, with the right management. There are lots of reasons she would wait six months before the giant raise. Money isn't actually the main motivator for a lot of people, and with the knowledge that she is appreciated and people depend on her as well as the fact that she will be better paid upon contract negotiation at end of term, she's more likely to stay.
Oddly enough, lots of people want to have a career. They just don't expect to get loyalty from a company anymore and so don't give a company theirs.
If training is specialized, why not pay for people to go through some external training program in exchange for contract? I know some companies do this now for Rails and it's common for other skills.
Master craftsmen have apprentices. It's a model that works, that's all I'm saying.
In order to solve the problems you mentioned, it's confidence and a particular mindset you need, not simply skill. I had overlooked that.
I think you could actually keep employees, though, with the right management. There are lots of reasons she would wait six months before the giant raise. Money isn't actually the main motivator for a lot of people, and with the knowledge that she is appreciated and people depend on her as well as the fact that she will be better paid upon contract negotiation at end of term, she's more likely to stay.
Oddly enough, lots of people want to have a career. They just don't expect to get loyalty from a company anymore and so don't give a company theirs.
If training is specialized, why not pay for people to go through some external training program in exchange for contract? I know some companies do this now for Rails and it's common for other skills.
Master craftsmen have apprentices. It's a model that works, that's all I'm saying.
So you're suggesting that the company change how it does employment to have more old fashioned, long term employment. But how do you convince someone of that? Everyone is saying "We're different, we'll look after you!".
You could do it with contracts & law. Offer 10 year salaries-index-linked-at-a-minimum employment contracts. Employment contracts that specifically state the employer won't do things like outsource, (or if you're in USA won't do 'at will'). Employment contract that'll give 5 times the legal minimum of redundancy leave. Require that upper level management/directors don't get bonuses if there's been any pay freezes or pay cuts. Lots and lots of little things like that might be a way.
This will (obviously) restrict the business, and limit its resaleability. ("Come buy us out, you just have to pay 50 people for the next 8 years").
You could do it with contracts & law. Offer 10 year salaries-index-linked-at-a-minimum employment contracts. Employment contracts that specifically state the employer won't do things like outsource, (or if you're in USA won't do 'at will'). Employment contract that'll give 5 times the legal minimum of redundancy leave. Require that upper level management/directors don't get bonuses if there's been any pay freezes or pay cuts. Lots and lots of little things like that might be a way.
This will (obviously) restrict the business, and limit its resaleability. ("Come buy us out, you just have to pay 50 people for the next 8 years").
To be honest, a lot of it is about the character and credibility of management. If you work for a guy who is openly against outsourcing, you can generally expect them not to outsource. If you work for someone who was hired by the board to cut costs, you can expect them to do that in any way possible, even if it harms the company long-term.
Yes, contracts play a role in this and it would definitely limit a business' sale price. But the thing is, if you're looking long-term, why would your exit strategy be acquisition?
Money is the main motivator in financial services. People don't really have any other metric to use for their performance, so they are paid a lot. In other industries, though, you have many alternatives to pure financial reward, and people are actually happier.
I don't know if this would entirely work or not. I'm just saying that it makes sense to me and that many people value stability and appreciation for their skill a great deal.
Yes, contracts play a role in this and it would definitely limit a business' sale price. But the thing is, if you're looking long-term, why would your exit strategy be acquisition?
Money is the main motivator in financial services. People don't really have any other metric to use for their performance, so they are paid a lot. In other industries, though, you have many alternatives to pure financial reward, and people are actually happier.
I don't know if this would entirely work or not. I'm just saying that it makes sense to me and that many people value stability and appreciation for their skill a great deal.
Sure, the management matters, but how do you convince a prospective new hire of what the manager believe? You are then limiting your possibilities for new management hires.
Other non-financial industries use money aswell. Doctors for one.
Other non-financial industries use money aswell. Doctors for one.
That's where brand management and PR come in. Plus if you foster a certain environment in your company when someone comes in they can feel it.
Actually the medical profession is an interesting example. Doctors get paid very little initially and don't move often.
Actually the medical profession is an interesting example. Doctors get paid very little initially and don't move often.
But now you have to hire a Rails trainer as well as a Rails dev!
This seems like a pretty worthless test. I mean, who cares how many companies respond to your resume? The real test is how many job offers you can get, and that's a much more difficult than getting responses on your resume.
Secondly, are entrepreneurs really this out of touch with what it's like to be a jobhunter? This post reads like it was written by an anthropologist studying some strange culture he'd never seen before.
Secondly, are entrepreneurs really this out of touch with what it's like to be a jobhunter? This post reads like it was written by an anthropologist studying some strange culture he'd never seen before.
I'm finding my own meme here - CI is the key to enabling remote working and so enabling a company to truly select the best
With CI it's pretty easy to see what needs to be built and whether it works - every few minutes if needed.
You can see progress happen throughout a day.
No other metrics matter.
With CI it's pretty easy to see what needs to be built and whether it works - every few minutes if needed.
You can see progress happen throughout a day.
No other metrics matter.
What is "Cl"? Thanks.
Continuous Integration, any of a number of source control/automated build systems that keep the code working at all times over multiple developers/sites.
Oh duh! Thanks! I was reading it as C L.
After reading that, I can only imagine what this demand curve means for the actually available talent one may buy.
You know the saying - "the market is so hot even chickens can fly"
If you have to hire, that'll be a very expansive chicken - or maybe even a lemon. That's the cost of doing business I guess.
You know the saying - "the market is so hot even chickens can fly"
If you have to hire, that'll be a very expansive chicken - or maybe even a lemon. That's the cost of doing business I guess.
I've always wondered why companies aren't recruiting kids out of High School to learn Rails instead of attending college. Understandably there is immaturity to deal with and all that but it seems there is enough demand to overshadow that.
One agency’s pitch consisted entirely of this: “I saw that your [sic] looking for some work. I have a few posions [sic] in SF that might be a fit, let me know when you have some time to talk.” It provided no last name, phone number or company name.
The author should remember this is craigslist. This seems like run-of-the-mill spam (likely sent to EVERY new job posting)
The author should remember this is craigslist. This seems like run-of-the-mill spam (likely sent to EVERY new job posting)
It was actually on the Ruby meetup list... I was surprised how many recruiters where monitoring that group, how quickly they responded to the fake message (within 5 minutes), and how little care, thought or attention they paid when asking people to entrust them with their career/job.
Ah okay. I should have read the article more carefully. It still could have been automated spam though :)
For example, I personally could get a drastic increase in income by moving to USA/SF, but I won't consider physically moving since it would be a great disruption to my wife and babies and I can afford not to move, as developers are wanted everywhere (though not so piranha-style). And there are many more developers like me. Long-range telecommuting is an option, and it's easier to be competitive financially since practically everywhere has lower cost of living than SF, I believe. (How much would a home for a full family within cycling distance of the office cost?)