Ask HN: Is 25 too late to become a proficient developer?
Hello,
I did computer engineering during undergrad and have some programming skills. However, it's not like what's out there today. I'm trying to pick up web and mobile development and i'm wondering if it's too late to become proficient at 25. I've read several posts on hacker news whereby people starting out at 22 are somewhat discouraged. I really want to take this up so that I can build things for myself as well as eventually found or join a startup. I'm also trying to decide whether to focus mainly on mobile dev.
I know how many people hate these questions; however, any information provided is much appreciated.
Please advise.
22 comments
Age is irrelevant. It's all about what you know and what you're willing to know that determines whether or not you're good at something. I've worked with web developers twice my age in their 50's. Some of them started programming in their late 30's. It sounds like you're proficient enough, so you'll be fine. It's all in your head my friend.
I often worry that being 25 myself is a cause for concern because non of my startup ideas have taken off, but I figure I've got my whole life to try and make a startup work.
I often worry that being 25 myself is a cause for concern because non of my startup ideas have taken off, but I figure I've got my whole life to try and make a startup work.
Same boat here, 25, coding my way through life and none of my startup ideas have taken off.
I am not saying here that is good to have other people "failing with me", but is good to know and be aware that we are not unique, we are not the only one trying at this point of life.
Hope the best for the next ideas.
I am not saying here that is good to have other people "failing with me", but is good to know and be aware that we are not unique, we are not the only one trying at this point of life.
Hope the best for the next ideas.
ABSOLUTELY NOT!
I will be 38 next month. I completed my thesis for grad school in 2010 (35 y.o.). I started taking prerequisites for CS school back in 2000 (25 y.o.) because I had a Bachelors in something totally unrelated to CS. I liked programming when I did a bit in HS but never pursued it until I took a CS101 programming course using C++.
I'm nothing special but I am proud of what I can do. It is never too late, sure as hell not at 22 or 25 or even much later.
To be fair you probably won't grow up to be Linus Torvalds, Bjarne Stroustrup or James Gosling, but then again how many of us will be? I'm still gainfully employed, I'm doing ok, started learning Rails on my own 18 months ago, working on other web based mobile frameworks. It is never too late. And depending on how much time you spend on it maybe you could be another one of these guys, who the hell is anyone to say?
The one thing you have to be when learning anything with programming is you need to be persistent. I hit the wall more times than I can count. You need to reach out and ask for help without worrying about looking stupid. Some of the assholes will insult you or look down at you ("you couldn't figure it out yourself? loser...") but the hell with those people.
Mobile dev is probably not 5 years (feel free to correct me) meaning if you know nothing right now the experts really don't know that much more than you do now. I've heard of 40+ year olds going back to school to be a doctor. Being a doctor takes an awful lot more time than being a good coder, and it wasn't too late for them and it sure as hell aint too late for you. If you are persistent, curious and some level of intelligence is enough to do well.
One thing though - as far as the age thing, some code shops might stay away from the older folks because they want cheap talent with no life or responsibilities. Those opportunities may not work out for you but you don't want them.
Who ever told gave you the impression that youth is so important to be a good coder does not know what they are taking about. Carpe Diem my friend!
I will be 38 next month. I completed my thesis for grad school in 2010 (35 y.o.). I started taking prerequisites for CS school back in 2000 (25 y.o.) because I had a Bachelors in something totally unrelated to CS. I liked programming when I did a bit in HS but never pursued it until I took a CS101 programming course using C++.
I'm nothing special but I am proud of what I can do. It is never too late, sure as hell not at 22 or 25 or even much later.
To be fair you probably won't grow up to be Linus Torvalds, Bjarne Stroustrup or James Gosling, but then again how many of us will be? I'm still gainfully employed, I'm doing ok, started learning Rails on my own 18 months ago, working on other web based mobile frameworks. It is never too late. And depending on how much time you spend on it maybe you could be another one of these guys, who the hell is anyone to say?
The one thing you have to be when learning anything with programming is you need to be persistent. I hit the wall more times than I can count. You need to reach out and ask for help without worrying about looking stupid. Some of the assholes will insult you or look down at you ("you couldn't figure it out yourself? loser...") but the hell with those people.
Mobile dev is probably not 5 years (feel free to correct me) meaning if you know nothing right now the experts really don't know that much more than you do now. I've heard of 40+ year olds going back to school to be a doctor. Being a doctor takes an awful lot more time than being a good coder, and it wasn't too late for them and it sure as hell aint too late for you. If you are persistent, curious and some level of intelligence is enough to do well.
One thing though - as far as the age thing, some code shops might stay away from the older folks because they want cheap talent with no life or responsibilities. Those opportunities may not work out for you but you don't want them.
Who ever told gave you the impression that youth is so important to be a good coder does not know what they are taking about. Carpe Diem my friend!
No. Especially if you already have some programming skills. It means you're starting with a knowledge (or at least familiarity) of programming concepts.
Not sure where this ageism comes from (someone please explain). To me it seems like either you get it or you don't. As long as you get it, have a mind for problem solving, and have the willingness/ability to adapt to new tech and best practices, the age you start doesn't make a difference.
Not sure where this ageism comes from (someone please explain). To me it seems like either you get it or you don't. As long as you get it, have a mind for problem solving, and have the willingness/ability to adapt to new tech and best practices, the age you start doesn't make a difference.
Though I had done some html and css before I turned 30, I didn't start programming until I was 33, and now it's my full time gig, so no. At 25, you're still just a pup.
Also, from what I understand, it isn't rare for CS students to be somewhat overwhelmed when starting programming in the real world. In the real world, the technology stack moves very quickly, while most universities are still focused on things like Java. Possibly because these languages are better at teaching you skills that get you into good habits, but I'm not sure.
A word of advice, don't get caught up in chasing every new language, framework and technology. Choose wisely and learn what you're going to need for the next 5 years. Ruby is very much in demand at the moment, and javascript is growing considerably, both because of client side and node.
Also, from what I understand, it isn't rare for CS students to be somewhat overwhelmed when starting programming in the real world. In the real world, the technology stack moves very quickly, while most universities are still focused on things like Java. Possibly because these languages are better at teaching you skills that get you into good habits, but I'm not sure.
A word of advice, don't get caught up in chasing every new language, framework and technology. Choose wisely and learn what you're going to need for the next 5 years. Ruby is very much in demand at the moment, and javascript is growing considerably, both because of client side and node.
Nothing is too late in life. Stop procrastinating.
I wish I could retweet that, but no such thing here. :)
I'm not affiliated with the asker but I'd like to thank everyone too, this is encouraging--I'm 23. I've been regretting my youth lately because I don't feel that I'm a good programmer at my age. I learned HTML, CSS, and JavaScript when I was 12 or 13 by tinkering with my Friendster profile layout. But there's not really a hacker culture where I come from, so while the passion has always been there, it wasn't cultivated as I grew older.
I'm not affiliated with the asker but I'd like to thank everyone too, this is encouraging--I'm 23. I've been regretting my youth lately because I don't feel that I'm a good programmer at my age. I learned HTML, CSS, and JavaScript when I was 12 or 13 by tinkering with my Friendster profile layout. But there's not really a hacker culture where I come from, so while the passion has always been there, it wasn't cultivated as I grew older.
Agreed!
There are always going to be people better than you and worse than you. I think if you have the ability to teach yourself, you will be fine no matter what your age is.I am 33 now and I constantly try and stay on top of things. It is impossible to stay on top of anything for very long in this business, but it is important that you keep trying. I would not be discouraged about that particular age, since that is exactly when I turned mine around. Doubt is your worst enemy.
Sorry to disappoint you, but the answer is a simple no. Matter of fact, there are very few things that you can't start at 25 and become proficient at.
Wha-huh? Of course not. Neither is 35, 45, 55... I plan to work until I'm at least 80, if I live that long. I was still playing in the Army at 25. Take a look at MIT's Open Course Wear videos for Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs - half the class looks past 30 and some have gray hair. Go for it.
Absolutely not.
One of the guys in my CS class was 27 when he first started programming. Not only did he end up in the top of the class, he landed a good job at a huge consultancy firm and became a senior member of staff within about two years of being there.
If you want to be a developer then start developing!
One of the guys in my CS class was 27 when he first started programming. Not only did he end up in the top of the class, he landed a good job at a huge consultancy firm and became a senior member of staff within about two years of being there.
If you want to be a developer then start developing!
It's not the olympics, you don't have to be the top 100 in the world to matter.
I started at about 8yo... professionally at 16 and I'm 32 now. I think worrying about things like this is a proxy for accepting one's own aging and mortality.
Starting in my early youth gave me certain advantages, primarily in internalizing the underlying structures but it's the rare exception that has the access and parental support to gain such early life experience. Most of the time, the advantage is in spinning up on new projects - which is a relatively small % of the time spent working on projects.
I really think that being industrious will compensate for any advantage very quickly.
That being said, some people say it takes 10,000 hours to gain real expertise in a field and starting at 25 makes that more difficult.
I started at about 8yo... professionally at 16 and I'm 32 now. I think worrying about things like this is a proxy for accepting one's own aging and mortality.
Starting in my early youth gave me certain advantages, primarily in internalizing the underlying structures but it's the rare exception that has the access and parental support to gain such early life experience. Most of the time, the advantage is in spinning up on new projects - which is a relatively small % of the time spent working on projects.
I really think that being industrious will compensate for any advantage very quickly.
That being said, some people say it takes 10,000 hours to gain real expertise in a field and starting at 25 makes that more difficult.
Man. At 25, you are still so incredibly young, you have no idea. I am 30 and still feel incredibly young, but you already have a 5 year jump on me, which is huge. Take advantage of it and don't waste it. You're already on the right path by looking to be a developer, which leaves the world open to you. Maybe you'll get tired of working on other people's stuff when you reach 28 or so, and maybe you'll start a company that you're passionate about and exit by the time you're 30. Then you can spend the rest of your life swimming with sharks, looking through telescopes and learning more about physics, or whatever it is that excites you. 25 is the ideal age to make this transition. Do it.
There is a fancy indicator for when it is too late to start something and advance towards being proficient. It is called death (maybe not that fancy).
Nope.
It's a lot easier than you think to become a developer who can create products that have value.
OTOH, I've been coding for > 20 years, majored in CS, and I'm still light years away from the C hackers I see often around here.
Just depends on your goals. Keep improving. Web apps aren't difficult to become proficient at creating. Hacking the linux kernel or building realtime trading systems is a lot harder.
It's a lot easier than you think to become a developer who can create products that have value.
OTOH, I've been coding for > 20 years, majored in CS, and I'm still light years away from the C hackers I see often around here.
Just depends on your goals. Keep improving. Web apps aren't difficult to become proficient at creating. Hacking the linux kernel or building realtime trading systems is a lot harder.
25 is still pretty young. Take Berkeley's SaaS classes-it will teach you advanced Ruby on Rails.
>I've read several posts on hacker news whereby people starting out at 22 are somewhat discouraged.
I has some experience but I started my degree at 22 and got my first dev job at 25.
Firms will hire you if you are passionate and knowledgeable about your newly chosen field.
I has some experience but I started my degree at 22 and got my first dev job at 25.
Firms will hire you if you are passionate and knowledgeable about your newly chosen field.
This is so true. I'm by no means a 'proficient' developer, but I moved from what is often considered the 'lowest' field of academia, psychology and communications, into what is often considered the 'lowest' field of programming: front-end web development. The jobs offered me freedom, and now I find myself doing my work (with great pleasure, I might say!) to be financially stable, but with plenty of time for other stuff.
In just the past months I dove into more 'serious' javascript development, finding myself even bored by anything that just focuses on 'common' patterns of functional programming. Now I'm wrapping my head around Clojure and copious amounts of reading up on programming history, lisp, lambda calculus, test-driven development, and whatnot, with no clear idea of how this will help me 'further my career' as a front-ender.
And yet, I find myself understanding it, gaining a deeper understanding, and honestly being surprised at all of it because surely I can't be a 'serious' programmer.
Of course it could turn out I cannot be a 'serious' programmer, but so far I've been surprised at how easy or at least possible it has been for me, a 28 year-old non-programmer with no background in IT, to 'get' whatever it is that I decide to study.
And you know what? I don't even care. I'm having more fun than ever before, and my development serves my both in supporting myself and enjoying myself. For all I know I'll never be a 'proper' programmer, but god damnit I'm having fun trying. And thank god there's plenty of work to go around for us 'front-enders'. I'd be fine just doing basic js/jQuery work. It's a win-win situation!
In just the past months I dove into more 'serious' javascript development, finding myself even bored by anything that just focuses on 'common' patterns of functional programming. Now I'm wrapping my head around Clojure and copious amounts of reading up on programming history, lisp, lambda calculus, test-driven development, and whatnot, with no clear idea of how this will help me 'further my career' as a front-ender.
And yet, I find myself understanding it, gaining a deeper understanding, and honestly being surprised at all of it because surely I can't be a 'serious' programmer.
Of course it could turn out I cannot be a 'serious' programmer, but so far I've been surprised at how easy or at least possible it has been for me, a 28 year-old non-programmer with no background in IT, to 'get' whatever it is that I decide to study.
And you know what? I don't even care. I'm having more fun than ever before, and my development serves my both in supporting myself and enjoying myself. For all I know I'll never be a 'proper' programmer, but god damnit I'm having fun trying. And thank god there's plenty of work to go around for us 'front-enders'. I'd be fine just doing basic js/jQuery work. It's a win-win situation!
I hope not. I'm 35 and just started myself... first semester CS course.
Your age is only one factor among many other factors. Especially on the internet - how would anybody even know how old you are.
25 is too late if you want to become a professional athlete perhaps, for anything involving brain skills, you're still a kid.
Being a developer is not about how old you are when you get started, its about how much you love it.
absolutely..!
thank you all very much for your advise. I'm starting today. As far as languages, I picked django because I know python. I hope the future for that language is somewhat bright.
Awesome! Where are you located? There are often fantastic Python user groups/Meetups in decent sized cities. Austin has three, all with a different focus.
Wow, that's awesome! I'm actually in the Orange County area in California; unfortunately, there aren't any communities in that area but there's an active community in Los Angeles...I try to go from time to time.
Even if the whole world is against you...continue.
no