Motor Trend Car of the Year: Tesla Model S(motortrend.com)
motortrend.com
Motor Trend Car of the Year: Tesla Model S
http://www.motortrend.com/oftheyear/car/1301_2013_motor_trend_car_of_the_year_tesla_model_s
20 comments
The cars aren't just assembled in the U.S., they're built here; Tesla does a lot more radically vertically integrated end-to-end manufacture than any other car company. Other than a few ready-made components such as the batteries, the touchscreens, and the Mercedes steering columns, they make almost all of their components from scratch from raw aluminum.
So what if the Teslas are built in the US? How does that change anything? What if they were built in Canada, like a lot of GM cars are these days? Or Japan?
My son works at Tesla. He got the job as his first real job after doing a tour in Iraq with the U.S. military. Tesla taught him how to operate a laser cutter, and a bunch of other heavy machinery. He just left for work a few minutes ago, he's working night shift because they're cranking out cars all night long every night. Him, and some thousand+ other people got jobs there-- good, high quality, awesome jobs. Having good jobs for people here in America isn't important to a lot of people, but it's been a really good thing for him and for our family.
You should have your son do an AMA (Ask Me Anything) on the Reddit website. The title "I'm an Iraq War veteran who now works at Tesla. AMA" would get a lot of hits, and more importantly good publicity for a great company that is hiring Americans.
Families like yours are what motivate people like me to constantly be on the lookout for job-creating opportunities. A startup/business is not about itself, but about the people behind it. It must see to improve the lives of those involved, and their families. I am very happy for your family. May you enjoy more blessings.
Economic advantages aside, gainful, satisfying employment is also great for morale of the nation.
Making things is generally fertile ground for job satisfaction.
Making things is generally fertile ground for job satisfaction.
There is something to be said for having demonstrable concrete evidence of where your time was spent. Most service jobs lack this.
Well, it changes many things. American jobs, for one. Pride in American innovation. Money into a troubled industry that was once one of the banner industries of this country.
MT mostly writes for a US crowd right? It's great story for whoever figures it out, but it definitely scratches many Americans' itches with the US "still being innovative and 'making real stuff'".
Are you trolling? "How does that change anything?" They're built in America meaning Americans are being employed to make them and being paid a decent wage to do so. I mean ... Jesus.
Not everybody who uses this website live within in the United States.
But everyone should be able to understand the economic importance of having products being designed and built in their country. Especially if their country has been hit hard recently by manufacturing being moved to other countries.
They do. Which is with they don't care for the USA.
Naively, some readers though this thread was going to be about a car. Some of them actually fail to see how where a car is produced should influence its merits.
They didn't realize that as the USA were involved, the discussion was doomed to degenerate into a mediocre and moderately interesting patriotic blabber. These readers simply lake basic knowledge of the average American state of mind.
As someone who used to be one of them, I give you our sincere apologies and invite you to keep going on your war veterans and industrial pride.
They didn't realize that as the USA were involved, the discussion was doomed to degenerate into a mediocre and moderately interesting patriotic blabber. These readers simply lake basic knowledge of the average American state of mind.
As someone who used to be one of them, I give you our sincere apologies and invite you to keep going on your war veterans and industrial pride.
Hey, let's keep it civil. How often do you hear "Good to see New Zealand in the news!" or "This is a great thing for the South African startup scene!"? People have patriotic pride, but beyond that they like to see interesting things happen around them and see the positive economic impact that a successful startup brings.
This has nothing to do with Americans specifically beyond the fact that there may be more Americans on this forum than other individual countries, so there are more comments. There's no need to come on here and spew anti-American sentiments like you are so coyly doing right now. Americans aren't leaving hateful comments on stories about other countries startup scenes. This is a story about a successful American startup doing their business in America in a fashion that is not the same as typical established American companies in their industry. And somehow you're surprised that local hackers are pleased by this?
This has nothing to do with Americans specifically beyond the fact that there may be more Americans on this forum than other individual countries, so there are more comments. There's no need to come on here and spew anti-American sentiments like you are so coyly doing right now. Americans aren't leaving hateful comments on stories about other countries startup scenes. This is a story about a successful American startup doing their business in America in a fashion that is not the same as typical established American companies in their industry. And somehow you're surprised that local hackers are pleased by this?
While I'm a massive fan of what Tesla is achieving with their cars, and I lust after the Model S, the giant touchscreen in the Model S gives me pause.
Is it really such a good idea to have a glowing screen dominating the interior at night? To say nothing of the opportunities for distracted drivers trying to navigate a button-free interface that can't be operated without taking your eyes off the road to look at the items you're pressing, or the opportunity for modal errors that abound in systems like this.
Echoes of the disastrous usability in the BMW i-Drive system are ringing in my ears. I hope Tesla has learned from the mistakes of others. I'd very much like to see an independent UX evaluation of the Tesla's driver controls.
Is it really such a good idea to have a glowing screen dominating the interior at night? To say nothing of the opportunities for distracted drivers trying to navigate a button-free interface that can't be operated without taking your eyes off the road to look at the items you're pressing, or the opportunity for modal errors that abound in systems like this.
Echoes of the disastrous usability in the BMW i-Drive system are ringing in my ears. I hope Tesla has learned from the mistakes of others. I'd very much like to see an independent UX evaluation of the Tesla's driver controls.
The biggest issue with any touchscreen in the car is the lack of tactile feedback. I have to take my eye of the road to find the button I need even if I know its location relative to the other buttons.
I haven't personally driven one, but in my opinion things like that are only as distracting as you, the individual, make them. It's analogous to texting while driving. Is the fact that I have a phone I can do an amazing variety of things on a distraction while driving? Yes! But, do I do those things while driving? No! I don't see this as anything different. Just don't touch the shiny thing when you're busy driving an automobile that can kill someone or yourself.
That being said, it is a gigantic target for negative media coverage because of it, and as soon as someone is dumb enough to get in an accident because of it, people are going to be calling for Elon's head. (maybe not, but it's certainly within the realm of possibility)
That being said, it is a gigantic target for negative media coverage because of it, and as soon as someone is dumb enough to get in an accident because of it, people are going to be calling for Elon's head. (maybe not, but it's certainly within the realm of possibility)
That is why I still love my 06 Toyota Camry They have turn dials I can switch the temperature knob just by muscle memory knowing where the position of my hand is, without every looking at the screen. Or hitting an up or down button and checking back to see if I got to the right temperature. This is definitely safety over technology for me
The solution is just an auto-dimming brightness trick away, right? Also, FYI - most things on the screen can be controlled using the HUD and steering wheel buttons. So both your fears seem largely unfounded.
Well, if it's anything like the Chrysler 300, the touchscreen dims as the ambient light decreases. There are buttons on the back of the steering wheel to move around the stereo system, without looking at the screen.
The 300 also has a voice system like a lot of vehicles these days, so that you can hit a button on the front of the steering wheel and give voice commands.
The 300 also has a voice system like a lot of vehicles these days, so that you can hit a button on the front of the steering wheel and give voice commands.
Looking at this video walkthrough of the interface, there seems to be quite a lot to distract the driver: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hVd_ABhNBA
Texting and driving is dangerous enough. The opportunities for a less-than-stellar driver to take their focus away from the road seem to abound.
It looks like it makes an amazing demo. I have to question the wisdom of giving the driver of a car access to this level of complexity while driving. Watch the video around 3:45 and look at how many steps the driver has to go through just to open or close the sunroof.
There are times when a simple dedicated button, while not as sexy to show off to the motoring press, can be a much more elegant solution than a series of overlapping menus and windows on a touchscreen.
Texting and driving is dangerous enough. The opportunities for a less-than-stellar driver to take their focus away from the road seem to abound.
It looks like it makes an amazing demo. I have to question the wisdom of giving the driver of a car access to this level of complexity while driving. Watch the video around 3:45 and look at how many steps the driver has to go through just to open or close the sunroof.
There are times when a simple dedicated button, while not as sexy to show off to the motoring press, can be a much more elegant solution than a series of overlapping menus and windows on a touchscreen.
Wow, that is one ugly interface. Give me knobs any day over this crap.
One major benefit over hardware? - it's easily changed. Almost certainly will you eventually be able to apply whatever skin suits your fancy. It also opens up very interesting opportunities for the homebrew scene.
I think it’s just unacceptable for the interface in such an expensive car to look so ugly. You may be able to fiddle with it, but that never seemed like an acceptable excuse to me. When I pick the knobs I know what I get. It might not be really possible to change them, but at least I could pick something I liked.
It looks different from Motortrend's pictures. Maybe the color scheme can be changed?
In any case, this is lightyears ahead of what competitors have to offer.
In any case, this is lightyears ahead of what competitors have to offer.
Agreed, the giant screen is ugly and a total distraction.
I drive a 1998 car and I love how everything I can do is a physical button. I can set the temperature to the exact degree I want without looking at the screen, since pushing both the temperature up and temperature down button at the same time sets the temperature to 72 degrees.
I also drive a 1998, and I would love something like that. My temp controls are sliders, and the two options seem to be "is this thing actually on?" or "blast furnace".
Voice controls would be better. Press a button on the wheel and say "set temperature to 72 degrees".
Voice controls would be better. Press a button on the wheel and say "set temperature to 72 degrees".
The touch screen inverts the colors, so it's black for night driving. I haven't seen it in action, but they say it does the trick.
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Coming from reviews by recent owners (of which, I will be one in about a month and a half) and my own test ride, the distraction level is actually very low.
At night, the display switches to a white on black interface with a dimmed screen brightness. Unless you are seriously distracted by any light in your car at night, this isn't going to get in your way. Really, the only way you can make it worse is by leaving a website up with animation on it or bright colors.
In addition, any important info (navigation, media playback, range indication) is available on the dash display. The default interface is relatively static, so it's not going to try and distract you from driving. The most motion is going to come from the dash, and that's right below your eye line, provided you're actually keeping your eyes on the road.
I saw this at the Beta event last year and even though I wasn't the driver, I ended up spending most of my time looking elsewhere besides the center display. The car and the driving experience is really front and center, not the touchscreen.
At night, the display switches to a white on black interface with a dimmed screen brightness. Unless you are seriously distracted by any light in your car at night, this isn't going to get in your way. Really, the only way you can make it worse is by leaving a website up with animation on it or bright colors.
In addition, any important info (navigation, media playback, range indication) is available on the dash display. The default interface is relatively static, so it's not going to try and distract you from driving. The most motion is going to come from the dash, and that's right below your eye line, provided you're actually keeping your eyes on the road.
I saw this at the Beta event last year and even though I wasn't the driver, I ended up spending most of my time looking elsewhere besides the center display. The car and the driving experience is really front and center, not the touchscreen.
"Really, the only way you can make it worse is by leaving a website up with animation on it or bright colors." ... Does this mean I can surf the web on it? Does this feature get disabled automatically once past a certain speed?
Yes, there's a full WebKit-based browser. It does not get disabled so your passenger can interact with it while you're driving.
But these are general safety issues that Tesla has let the driver decide for themselves, rather than forcing a decision with an automatic disabling at certain speeds. You can also drive the car off a cliff, if you so choose. It's really up to you to have some common sense about things like this. But the default interface and night mode are designed to not be a distraction, so only you and your passengers can create a distraction (which can happen in any car).
But these are general safety issues that Tesla has let the driver decide for themselves, rather than forcing a decision with an automatic disabling at certain speeds. You can also drive the car off a cliff, if you so choose. It's really up to you to have some common sense about things like this. But the default interface and night mode are designed to not be a distraction, so only you and your passengers can create a distraction (which can happen in any car).
I would like to think people are not stupid enough to multitask while driving. After all, we already have these things http://www.amazon.com/Notebook-Laptop-Mount-Truck-Holder/sim... to mount laptops into cars and trucks. We should not have to do this kind of hand-holding.
It honestly didn't seem that bad (I sat in one, but didn't drive it).
The best solution IMO would be gesture based, vs. buttons, but since it's Android, one could conceivably write a better gesture-based UI on your own and distribute it to other owners.
(and, a better audio UI -- if you worked on the microphone vs. most production cars, you could probably feed google or siri with a clean enough feed to be accurate, especially in a constrained domain, even at 110mph)
The best solution IMO would be gesture based, vs. buttons, but since it's Android, one could conceivably write a better gesture-based UI on your own and distribute it to other owners.
(and, a better audio UI -- if you worked on the microphone vs. most production cars, you could probably feed google or siri with a clean enough feed to be accurate, especially in a constrained domain, even at 110mph)
And better UI in general; the current one isn't pretty and as futuristic as it should look ;).
I've had mine for 3 weeks, and so far I haven't been any more distracted than I was in my last Japanese semi-luxury sedan. The most common actions (media pause, volume, skip and climate control) are on the wheel, and using the map with multitouch is much easier than using a joystick or wheel in an Acura, Lexus or BMW.
I got to see one of these in the wild yesterday - it's just beautiful. The door handles sit flush with the body... the charging port has an electromagnetic flip-open... the charger itself is beautiful... and it twirls lights around the charger handle until it's completely full, at which point it goes dark.
Beautiful, cool, wonderful 21st century engineering.
Beautiful, cool, wonderful 21st century engineering.
The best part for me is how you start the car. Just get in and put it in drive. You don't turn it on, it does that just be entering the car with the key fob in your pocket. When you're done, put it in park and walk away. It even locks it for you (a configurable option).
So much about this car is so...cool.
So much about this car is so...cool.
Interesting. It's pretty standard for all that to happen in semi-luxury cards today. But they do have a push-button to start the engine... I guess in an electric car, there's not really any need to "start the engine" since it can just be triggered by pressing the gas.
It makes sense to have a push button for a gas engine, but for some reason a hybrid camry I drove also had the same push button, and it was impossible to know what that button did. I put the car in reverse, and nothing would happen. Of course, I could put the car in park, and walk away and it would shut itself down. So the button is only needed when starting the car, and it must be pressed before shifting.
I think this is a smart move by Tesla, because I found push-to-start in a toyota hybrid confusing.
I think this is a smart move by Tesla, because I found push-to-start in a toyota hybrid confusing.
Sounds problematic to me. What if I want to sit in the car with it off? What if the passenger has the key in their pocket and gets out at the airport?
Some things should be done intentionally, not automatically.
Some things should be done intentionally, not automatically.
> What if I want to sit in the car with it off?
You can either not bring in the fob or tell the car to turn off via the touchscreen.
> What if the passenger has the key in their pocket and gets out at the airport?
Why would the passenger have the key and not the driver? The car wouldn't start without it in the driver's seat. That's even how it works for my Prius.
You can either not bring in the fob or tell the car to turn off via the touchscreen.
> What if the passenger has the key in their pocket and gets out at the airport?
Why would the passenger have the key and not the driver? The car wouldn't start without it in the driver's seat. That's even how it works for my Prius.
If the key has to be in the driver's seat, I think that solves it.
The airport scenario was one that I heard of actually happening (though I can't remember what model of car it was). I think the passenger owned the car.
The airport scenario was one that I heard of actually happening (though I can't remember what model of car it was). I think the passenger owned the car.
I think it's well-engineered for the cities and climate of California. It seems like that car will get destroyed and be impractical in the winter months of any less moderate climate.
Flush door handles and ice seems to be not well-thought out proposition at the very least.
Flush door handles and ice seems to be not well-thought out proposition at the very least.
As a Norwegian, this worries me too. Ditto for rust. All cars that are designed for warmer climates get absolutely pounded when we drive them around on our roads, and this is an expensive lesson that all automakers have to make.
My grandmother has a 1986 Toyota Corolla, identical to a model that my Australian friend still drives around in great working condition. But my grandmother's car has 20000 miles on it and already has rust holes through the chassis on both sides. Toyota did learn this lesson eventually, but their early cars rust to death in just a few years.
My grandmother has a 1986 Toyota Corolla, identical to a model that my Australian friend still drives around in great working condition. But my grandmother's car has 20000 miles on it and already has rust holes through the chassis on both sides. Toyota did learn this lesson eventually, but their early cars rust to death in just a few years.
If there's enough force (hydraulic?) behind the handles I can see it actually being an advantage in the winter to free them.
I could also see the Model X being pretty suitable for a northern climate. I'd love to have one here in Maine to test out.
I could also see the Model X being pretty suitable for a northern climate. I'd love to have one here in Maine to test out.
The Model S has also won Automobile car of the year (http://www.automobilemag.com/features/awards/1301_2013_autom...)
and the Yahoo car of the year (http://autos.yahoo.com/blogs/motoramic/tesla-model-2013-yaho...)
and the Yahoo car of the year (http://autos.yahoo.com/blogs/motoramic/tesla-model-2013-yaho...)
But nobody cares about those. Motortrend and Car & Driver are the big ones.
Tesla is the most innovative brand in cars. We need EVs to get independent from oil.
We are now in a time of pioneers in a new world. There will be a lot of failures but also successes. I have a good feeling with Tesla's way.
Here is why:
We are now in a time of pioneers in a new world. There will be a lot of failures but also successes. I have a good feeling with Tesla's way.
Here is why:
1. The design is exceptional
2. Their power train is simple. They didn't make the decision to use an extender like Volt which requires three hydraulic clutches
3. They extend the range through super chargers
4. They are aiming at the right target group
5. The time is right
6. Mr. Musk is a visionary> 2. Their power train is simple. They didn't make the decision to use an extender like Volt which requires three hydraulic clutches
A Volt-like extender requires ZERO clutches. It requires nothing more than a gas engine driving a generator which charges a battery which powers an electric motor.
The reason why the Volt has three clutches is straightforward: unlike Tesla, GM is trying to squeeze all the efficiency it can out of the car by taking advantage of the fact that the car actually has three motors in it. The Volt runs in four different modes:
0. The battery-powered traction motor drives the car (the default).
1. The gas engine drives a generator which, with battery support, powers the traction motor to drive the car.
2. The generator disengages from the (turned off) gas engine and performs double-duty as a second battery-driven motor.
3. The gas engine attaches directly to the drivetrain and helps the traction motor drive the car.
Each of these is maximally efficient in different situations. For example, if the battery is nearly depleted and the traction motor is spinning fast (over 70MPH), a gas engine directly assisting the wheels is more efficient than generating electricity for the traction motor.
Here's the dirty secret of the Model S which no one seems to have touched on: despite Tesla's aerodynamic puffery, it's a fairly inefficient electric vehicle. The EPA rates it at just 89MPGe with its lightest battery, compared to (for example) 98MPGe for the Volt, 99 for the Leaf, and 100 for the C-Max Energi. The Model S doesn't really need to maximize efficiency because its battery is big enough to handle range anxiety. But people who really cared about oil independence (as it sounded like you did) would pick the Volt over the Model S.
A Volt-like extender requires ZERO clutches. It requires nothing more than a gas engine driving a generator which charges a battery which powers an electric motor.
The reason why the Volt has three clutches is straightforward: unlike Tesla, GM is trying to squeeze all the efficiency it can out of the car by taking advantage of the fact that the car actually has three motors in it. The Volt runs in four different modes:
0. The battery-powered traction motor drives the car (the default).
1. The gas engine drives a generator which, with battery support, powers the traction motor to drive the car.
2. The generator disengages from the (turned off) gas engine and performs double-duty as a second battery-driven motor.
3. The gas engine attaches directly to the drivetrain and helps the traction motor drive the car.
Each of these is maximally efficient in different situations. For example, if the battery is nearly depleted and the traction motor is spinning fast (over 70MPH), a gas engine directly assisting the wheels is more efficient than generating electricity for the traction motor.
Here's the dirty secret of the Model S which no one seems to have touched on: despite Tesla's aerodynamic puffery, it's a fairly inefficient electric vehicle. The EPA rates it at just 89MPGe with its lightest battery, compared to (for example) 98MPGe for the Volt, 99 for the Leaf, and 100 for the C-Max Energi. The Model S doesn't really need to maximize efficiency because its battery is big enough to handle range anxiety. But people who really cared about oil independence (as it sounded like you did) would pick the Volt over the Model S.
Keep in mind that it's a 10-12% difference in mpg. It's like saying the 30mpg car is "inefficient" compared to the 33mpg one.
MPG by itself is not enough to define if a car is "efficient" or not. We'd need more data to determine that.
Isn't the leaf a much smaller car?
Not to mention the fact that any electric car will be more energy efficient than one using an internal combustion engine.
Isn't the leaf a much smaller car?
Not to mention the fact that any electric car will be more energy efficient than one using an internal combustion engine.
Bah, MPGe, not MPG. And anyway, MPG has been the standard of efficiency measurement for a century now, so such an argument is a bit weaselly, don't you think?
My claim still stands. The Volt doesn't need three clutches, but it has three because GM is concerned about efficiency, and Tesla not as much.
> Not to mention the fact that any electric car will be more energy efficient than one using an internal combustion engine.
The Volt has an ICE.
My claim still stands. The Volt doesn't need three clutches, but it has three because GM is concerned about efficiency, and Tesla not as much.
> Not to mention the fact that any electric car will be more energy efficient than one using an internal combustion engine.
The Volt has an ICE.
MPG(e) measures one aspect of efficiency: how much stored energy it takes to move the vehicle a given distance. If you use MPG, then a bus loses big time since a bus gets way lower MPG than a car.
Another measure is per-passenger MPG(e) A bus now looks a whole lot better, and a full Model S with jump-seats is more efficient than a full leaf in terms of per-passenger MPGe.
Another measure of efficiency is how efficient it turns the energy stored (gas, electricity, etc.) into kinetic energy. In this measure the weight of vehicle is irrelevant. The bus probably does pretty well as large diesel engines are typically more efficient than small gas engines, but pretty much all electrics will beat out all ICEs since the best ICE vehicles are a shade under 50% efficient, which is trivially beatable in an electric.
Another measure is per-passenger MPG(e) A bus now looks a whole lot better, and a full Model S with jump-seats is more efficient than a full leaf in terms of per-passenger MPGe.
Another measure of efficiency is how efficient it turns the energy stored (gas, electricity, etc.) into kinetic energy. In this measure the weight of vehicle is irrelevant. The bus probably does pretty well as large diesel engines are typically more efficient than small gas engines, but pretty much all electrics will beat out all ICEs since the best ICE vehicles are a shade under 50% efficient, which is trivially beatable in an electric.
> Another measure is per-passenger MPG(e) A bus now looks a whole lot better, and a full Model S with jump-seats is more efficient than a full leaf in terms of per-passenger MPGe.
All very true, but still very weaselly IMHO. Since the Leaf hauls five passengers, what you're really saying is that the Model S is acceptably efficient only if you're always carrying six passengers. I'm willing to bet that, assuming your Model S even has the child jump-seats in the back, this is probably well less than 10% of the use cases for the kinds of people buying this car.
And of course it's true that an ICE is less efficient than an electric motor. That's not what was claimed. What was claimed was that "any electric car will be more energy efficient than one using an internal combustion engine", that is, dismissing the Volt and C-Max.
I'm not saying that Tesla shouldn't have done what they did: they were very smart in developing a competitor to the BMW 7-series. The long range is smart, and the lack of an ICE backup is smart, and the high-end market is smart. It was the right decision to make. But it is nonetheless still fair to say that the Model S isn't a particularly efficient car in comparison to its electric and plug-in hybrid competition.
All very true, but still very weaselly IMHO. Since the Leaf hauls five passengers, what you're really saying is that the Model S is acceptably efficient only if you're always carrying six passengers. I'm willing to bet that, assuming your Model S even has the child jump-seats in the back, this is probably well less than 10% of the use cases for the kinds of people buying this car.
And of course it's true that an ICE is less efficient than an electric motor. That's not what was claimed. What was claimed was that "any electric car will be more energy efficient than one using an internal combustion engine", that is, dismissing the Volt and C-Max.
I'm not saying that Tesla shouldn't have done what they did: they were very smart in developing a competitor to the BMW 7-series. The long range is smart, and the lack of an ICE backup is smart, and the high-end market is smart. It was the right decision to make. But it is nonetheless still fair to say that the Model S isn't a particularly efficient car in comparison to its electric and plug-in hybrid competition.
The main point was the Model S could easily be just as thermodynamically efficient as the Leaf.
On a side note, I can't fit my family of 5 in a Leaf since kids have to be in a car-seat until age 8, and fitting 3 car-seats in the backseat of a Leaf is a no-go.
On a side note, I can't fit my family of 5 in a Leaf since kids have to be in a car-seat until age 8, and fitting 3 car-seats in the backseat of a Leaf is a no-go.
These are beautiful. I saw a Fisker Karma EVer in the wild today. These companies are doing such impressive design work on EVs. Why is there such a big gap between these works of art and the Volt? Surely there's a market for a 40-50k electric vehicle with good lines.
That's the Model X. http://www.teslamotors.com/modelx
The "Blue Star" is the $30k version, in the future. The Model X is an incremental modification of the Model S into a crossover SUV, available in 2014.
I'd love a "Blue Star Performance" for $50k -- I don't need a car as big as the Model S/X, but want 300 mile range, supercharger, and 4-5 sec 0-60. I'd be ok with a roadster except I hate convertibles and would like something a little bigger, like BMW 3er size.
I'd love a "Blue Star Performance" for $50k -- I don't need a car as big as the Model S/X, but want 300 mile range, supercharger, and 4-5 sec 0-60. I'd be ok with a roadster except I hate convertibles and would like something a little bigger, like BMW 3er size.
Huh? Jalopnik says that the Model X will start at $60k: http://jalopnik.com/5884111/tesla-model-x-price-tops-out-at-...
Starts at $49,900 (after tax credit): http://www.teslamotors.com/models/options
We're talking about Model X, but that's the model S pricing you're linking to.
Although Karmas are known to catch fire on many occasions, including while submerged in water (http://www.wired.com/autopia/2012/10/fisker-fire-new-jersey/).
Fisker Karma, you say - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnYuO0bGSTc
I guess no one at BMW, Mercedes or Audi has read the Innovator's dilemma.
That said, the German government tried to create many incentives for creating "greener" cars. However, the manufacturers IMO seemed to pour money into lobbying against it, rather then putting their engineers to work.
Depending on how much Tesla eats into their market share, it could be a tough road ahead for the German car industry (and, to some extent, for the whole German economy). Especially considering how long it takes them to come up with an answer to the Prius...
That said, the German government tried to create many incentives for creating "greener" cars. However, the manufacturers IMO seemed to pour money into lobbying against it, rather then putting their engineers to work.
Depending on how much Tesla eats into their market share, it could be a tough road ahead for the German car industry (and, to some extent, for the whole German economy). Especially considering how long it takes them to come up with an answer to the Prius...
Well, at least Mercedes holds a stake of about 5% of Tesla.
But I'm quite puzzled that even Porsche hasn't produced more than some shiny prototypes. An electric sports car, where range isn't that much of an issue, just seems like a no-brainer after the Tesla Roadster.
But I'm quite puzzled that even Porsche hasn't produced more than some shiny prototypes. An electric sports car, where range isn't that much of an issue, just seems like a no-brainer after the Tesla Roadster.
Well, Porsche recently developed the 918 Spyder[1], which is a plug-in hybrid. Pretty expensive, though.
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_918#Spyder
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_918#Spyder
This is a legitimate award, much more so than the previous HN post award.
Ugh, I wish Model S vs. Model X weren't such a hard choice. An AWD Model S would be perfect (I'll give up the Frunk, it's too small to hold anything I care about).
Ugh, I wish Model S vs. Model X weren't such a hard choice. An AWD Model S would be perfect (I'll give up the Frunk, it's too small to hold anything I care about).
I got to test drive a Model S last week and it was even better than expected. It felt like pure power when I put my foot down on the pedal and I was smiling most of the drive. It really does feel like they made the best car that happens to be electric, not just a good electric car. I can't wait for the 3rd gen 30k range car to come out.
Not a fan of below-the-fold videos autoplaying.
Anyone here able to drive one yet? Or even own one? I'm curious to hear from someone with personal use and how it compares to other luxury cars. It's the little things I'm curious about.
Roughly 900 people have their cars already and they're up to about 200 per week going on the road. 400 per week by the end of the month.
I've only riden in it, but it's a blast. The full torque at any speed is crazy powerful. The amenities are way above any other luxury car on the market. It's in another class, really. Check teslamotorsclub.com for some other reviews.
I've only riden in it, but it's a blast. The full torque at any speed is crazy powerful. The amenities are way above any other luxury car on the market. It's in another class, really. Check teslamotorsclub.com for some other reviews.
What do you want to know?
Having not owned an electric car before, I just wanted to know the little things that could bother people. How long does it take to charge. How often do you have to charge? How far can you go? What's the practicality of it? Just for short commutes? What fees are contracts are there that could be a game breaker?
I know the answer to some of these but just wondering if there were others that I'm missing.
I know the answer to some of these but just wondering if there were others that I'm missing.
Hope Jeremy Clarkson changes his mind on Tesla.
I don't think he actually hates the car. Tesla claims (I believe in their lawsuit against BBC) that they found a copy of the script for that episode, and it involved driving the Tesla around off screen until the battery was quite depleted, then driving the car to an area where they knew in advance they couldn't charge it up. Totally against real world conditions, and gave a very false picture of what owning a Tesla would be like.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better.
The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat."
-Theodore Roosevelt
Clarkson is just an old dinosaur who is slinging mud at the most innovative car maker in the world. It's entertainment first, and accuracy a distant second.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better.
The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat."
-Theodore Roosevelt
Clarkson is just an old dinosaur who is slinging mud at the most innovative car maker in the world. It's entertainment first, and accuracy a distant second.
Who cares what Clarkson thinks? He is a bore.
If Tesla continues and succeeds, I wonder what it will do to the ideas of innovation/disruption coming from the bottom end & competing with non consumption, being ignored by serious operators, etc.
Well deserved, it really is an amazing car.
I just walked by a 'Tesla Event' full of rich looking folk in NYC. I guess that's what it was for.
Edit: confirmed.
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/10990-Special-...
Edit: confirmed.
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/10990-Special-...
I would love to have a Tesla... but I'd be soooooo paranoid about damage and/or theft. :/
So how long before electric cars make a serious dent in auto sales? Certainly not within the next four years. Possibly within ten. What percentage of sales will electric cars have to be before people can buy without worrying about resale or the like?
If I can get a Lamborghini body on a Tesla chassis....SOLD!
If there was an aftermarket Tesla customisation company like Brabus (http://www.brabus.com/) it would be really cool. Hopefully done more tastefully than Brabus obviously (tacky bling-bling Range Rovers, I'm looking at you).
They have a custom version of the Tesla Roadster. It's under the 'specialcars' link.
Man I cannot wait to get one! The model X looks superb as well though. Good job Tesla.
The $49k base price is totally misleading. To get the "supercharger" access that makes road trips possible, you're out another $12k at least ($10k 60kWh battery plus $2k "supercharger" fee). Nav is $4k. Putting the rapid charger into your home (if you have one and don't park in an apartment complex/on the street) is another four figures.
All this to match the performance and luxury of the Acura TL I could get for $40k.
Is it really the best car in the world if it's impractical or out of reach for most people?
EDIT: Yes, I know all car manufacturers use a deceptively low base price and then nail you on "options" like air conditioning. Frankly I've often wished there was a law, or at least a gentleman's agreement in the auto industry, mandating that something can be an "option" for a maximum ten years before it's considered part of the basic accoutrements in a modern car and gets rolled in to all units shipped. Also, Tesla prides themselves outwardly on not being like the rest of the auto industry, but inherits its worst practice and magnifies it tenfold - base price $49 but for something usable you're pushing $70.
All this to match the performance and luxury of the Acura TL I could get for $40k.
Is it really the best car in the world if it's impractical or out of reach for most people?
EDIT: Yes, I know all car manufacturers use a deceptively low base price and then nail you on "options" like air conditioning. Frankly I've often wished there was a law, or at least a gentleman's agreement in the auto industry, mandating that something can be an "option" for a maximum ten years before it's considered part of the basic accoutrements in a modern car and gets rolled in to all units shipped. Also, Tesla prides themselves outwardly on not being like the rest of the auto industry, but inherits its worst practice and magnifies it tenfold - base price $49 but for something usable you're pushing $70.
"Putting the rapid charger into your home (if you have one and don't park in an apartment complex/on the street) is another four figures."
Hold up. No one needs the High Power Wall Charger and Twin Chargers. I actually reconfigured my reservation to remove these. They are a symptom of range anxiety. Most people will be able to get by with a simple NEMA 14-50 outlet. That charges the 85kWh battery overnight.
I almost never drive more than 300 miles in a day. I rarely even break 100 miles. For the rare times I do, I can go to a Supercharger and fill up for an hour and be back on the road. But again, the majority of the time I'll be charging at home on a standard outlet. In fact, I'm going to try a standard 120v wall outlet for a while and see if that works for me. If not, I can get a NEMA 14-50 installed pretty easily by any old electrician.
Hold up. No one needs the High Power Wall Charger and Twin Chargers. I actually reconfigured my reservation to remove these. They are a symptom of range anxiety. Most people will be able to get by with a simple NEMA 14-50 outlet. That charges the 85kWh battery overnight.
I almost never drive more than 300 miles in a day. I rarely even break 100 miles. For the rare times I do, I can go to a Supercharger and fill up for an hour and be back on the road. But again, the majority of the time I'll be charging at home on a standard outlet. In fact, I'm going to try a standard 120v wall outlet for a while and see if that works for me. If not, I can get a NEMA 14-50 installed pretty easily by any old electrician.
Is it really the best car in the world if it's impractical or out of reach for most people?
"Car of the Year" doesn't mean, "Car everybody needs to go buy".
Taking a quote from Motor Trend's website:
the vehicle that best represents exceptional value, superiority in its class and most significant development
Take a look at historical "Car of the Year":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_Trend_Car_of_the_Year#Car...
Notice, for example, the Nissan GT-R ($100,000) for 2009, and the Honda Civic ($15,000) for 2006
"Car of the Year" doesn't mean, "Car everybody needs to go buy".
Taking a quote from Motor Trend's website:
the vehicle that best represents exceptional value, superiority in its class and most significant development
Take a look at historical "Car of the Year":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_Trend_Car_of_the_Year#Car...
Notice, for example, the Nissan GT-R ($100,000) for 2009, and the Honda Civic ($15,000) for 2006
Value is linked to price. Tesla is doing the public a disservice by encouraging the notion that the Model S starts at $49k, when it really starts closer to $70 in order to approach a conventional car in utility.
Do you get $70k worth of car when you spend $70k on a Model S? Absolutely. You get something that can hold a candle to if not surpass the $70k BMW M5 in every way. But the curve isn't linear - the $49k barebones Model S is nowhere near as useful as the BMW 528 you'd get for the same money.
Do you get $70k worth of car when you spend $70k on a Model S? Absolutely. You get something that can hold a candle to if not surpass the $70k BMW M5 in every way. But the curve isn't linear - the $49k barebones Model S is nowhere near as useful as the BMW 528 you'd get for the same money.
Please actually read the review. They don't pretend the extra features come in the $49k model.
Additionally, it's a holistic approach. Nobody said it was a blowout victory in every single aspect.
Additionally, it's a holistic approach. Nobody said it was a blowout victory in every single aspect.
Just, stop. Many, many people will be happy with the base model. Your argument is like complaining that an iPad doesn't have a keyboard or that the base model doesn't have cellular.
Pedant: in no wise can you get into a new M5 for less than 90k, short of appropriation.
Also note the Probe, Alliance, Citation, Omni, Vega, and Corvaire.
The award even went to the Mustang II in 1974.
It reflects zeitgeist as often than quality.
The award even went to the Mustang II in 1974.
It reflects zeitgeist as often than quality.
I can honestly say, I do not compare the Tesla Model S to an Acura TL on price. It is something new, an actual viable electric car for normal consumers.
I compare it to industry shifting products like the iPhone, LCD flatscreens, laser printers, and Xerox machines.
I compare it to industry shifting products like the iPhone, LCD flatscreens, laser printers, and Xerox machines.
And gas/operating cost savings, and HOV lane access. And some states have a tax credit on top of the federal credit.
(That said, I don't see much point in buying anything but the Performance model -- assuming you keep it for 5-10 years, drive a lot, it seems like it's worth the extra $30k)
(That said, I don't see much point in buying anything but the Performance model -- assuming you keep it for 5-10 years, drive a lot, it seems like it's worth the extra $30k)
Honestly, that puts it solidly into "more than I can ever imagine paying for a car" territory. It's also too big - I can't imagine street parking a behemoth like that in San Francisco.
I quite like the Acura TSX - small, luxurious, $30k. I'd happily pay $40 for Tesla's equivalent.
I quite like the Acura TSX - small, luxurious, $30k. I'd happily pay $40 for Tesla's equivalent.
Yeah, I agree about size (I wonder how much of it is that Elon has a 98th percentile family size -- 5 kids and at least one wife at most times). I'm happy to trade 0-3% financing for operating expenses, though, so if I could buy a $50k car which saved me $100-200/mo over a $30k car.
The sweet spot today is probably a 2y old gasoline Lexus or Acura(, or maybe an Audi or BMW if you really care about certain performance aspects -- or a diesel mb or vw if you drive exceedingly long distances), for opex, financing cost, and experience.
I think this will change before 2020, though.
The sweet spot today is probably a 2y old gasoline Lexus or Acura(, or maybe an Audi or BMW if you really care about certain performance aspects -- or a diesel mb or vw if you drive exceedingly long distances), for opex, financing cost, and experience.
I think this will change before 2020, though.
> "option" for a maximum ten years before it's considered part of the basic accoutrements in a modern car
Just isn't really practical. Satnavs have been optional for that long, yet my mum doesn't want one, why should she now be forced to cover the cost of it because it's included in the base price? Etc.
Just isn't really practical. Satnavs have been optional for that long, yet my mum doesn't want one, why should she now be forced to cover the cost of it because it's included in the base price? Etc.
It's just the right product at the right time, which pretty much is the definition of a winner.