In Europe, Speed Cameras Meet Their Technological Match(nytimes.com)
nytimes.com
In Europe, Speed Cameras Meet Their Technological Match
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/01/technology/in-europe-speed-cameras-meet-their-technological-match.html
11 comments
Also, the article implies that
a) Coyote is new b) Coyote is a smartphone app
Both of these are false: Coyote is about 7 years old, and the "warner" is an independent module that uses the GSM network
a) Coyote is new b) Coyote is a smartphone app
Both of these are false: Coyote is about 7 years old, and the "warner" is an independent module that uses the GSM network
Actually, b) is true: see [1]
[1] http://itunes.apple.com/fr/app/icoyote-europe/id367345773?mt...
[1] http://itunes.apple.com/fr/app/icoyote-europe/id367345773?mt...
You are correct, I wasn't clear enough in my sentence. I meant to say "Coyote was not launched as an app".The article makes it sound like it's a new development.
What do you do when cameras start calculating the average speed over some distance, rather than doing single-spot measurements? :)
We have this in the Netherlands (among others), it's called 'trajectcontrole' here, and it works/helps enforcing the speed.
See; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPECS_(speed_camera)
They have these on various motorways and cities in the UK - and they work brilliantly - once you are in (a well signposted) 'average speed check' area, everyone slows down and does the speed limit.
You could still be warned that you are aproaching the area though. Interestingly these use front mounted cameras (to capture the driver) so have no effect on motorbikes - though the general slower speed seems to slow them on the motorways.
As a cyclist (and driver) I think they are great for city driving, and a much better solution than speedbumps or other calming measures.
You could still be warned that you are aproaching the area though. Interestingly these use front mounted cameras (to capture the driver) so have no effect on motorbikes - though the general slower speed seems to slow them on the motorways.
As a cyclist (and driver) I think they are great for city driving, and a much better solution than speedbumps or other calming measures.
Average speed checks are awful — I spend more time looking at the speedo than I do the road, as I try to keep close to the limit while not hitting the car in front. And they are always for odd speeds that I find difficult to maintain (just the wrong pedal position).
Perhaps they make sense when everyone has cruise control as standard to rely on, but until then a mass rollout would drive me to public transport. Or is that the point?
Perhaps they make sense when everyone has cruise control as standard to rely on, but until then a mass rollout would drive me to public transport. Or is that the point?
Except they don't - they do whatever their woefully inaccurate speedometer thinks the limit is. Since I drive something with cruise control and GPS-indicated speed, I invariably find myself iterating cruise control settings to match with the traffic. As for changing lanes, forget it - everyone will be driving 3 feet of the bumper in front, because the traffic concertina'ed up when it saw the first camera. You'd better be in the correct lane for your exit before you hit the averaging zone, or you're taking the scenic route.
Depressingly, I can't think of a better solution. Driving makes people into assholes, myself included, and averaging cameras are about the only thing that works. Speed bumps and traffic calming simply cause an arms race of bigger and bigger SUVs that simply roll over anything smaller than a mini with impunity.
I suppose they could try the Edinburgh approach of simply not repairing the roads, in favour of spending the money on an overgrown toy train set for the current set of ideologically-challenged councillors.
Depressingly, I can't think of a better solution. Driving makes people into assholes, myself included, and averaging cameras are about the only thing that works. Speed bumps and traffic calming simply cause an arms race of bigger and bigger SUVs that simply roll over anything smaller than a mini with impunity.
I suppose they could try the Edinburgh approach of simply not repairing the roads, in favour of spending the money on an overgrown toy train set for the current set of ideologically-challenged councillors.
Except when you want to leave the motorway only to find 3 lanes cars driving in formation preventing anyone from leaving.
Depends on the frequency of cameras, if it is just at the on and off ramps of a motorway, then one could exceed the speed limit for most of the way, determine how much time has been saved and enjoy a tea break at the service station before the last exit.
On a whole day drive that would still be faster as the speeding means you don't have to add on time for breaks.
In France that's effectively what happens. The toll gates are used to determine the average speed check over a journey, and so you can notice that the last service station before a toll gate is busier.
Not that I had a chance to do the same in the clapped out old Volvo I drove through France in.
I personally think average speed checks are great. In London I'd love to see the congestion charge cameras (number recognition technology) also used to check for average speed between any two cameras. I think that if people knew the whole of the city centre had average speed check enforcement that it would be a great benefit to the safety of pedestrians, cyclists and other road users in the city.
On a whole day drive that would still be faster as the speeding means you don't have to add on time for breaks.
In France that's effectively what happens. The toll gates are used to determine the average speed check over a journey, and so you can notice that the last service station before a toll gate is busier.
Not that I had a chance to do the same in the clapped out old Volvo I drove through France in.
I personally think average speed checks are great. In London I'd love to see the congestion charge cameras (number recognition technology) also used to check for average speed between any two cameras. I think that if people knew the whole of the city centre had average speed check enforcement that it would be a great benefit to the safety of pedestrians, cyclists and other road users in the city.
How about no cameras and no road markings, creating a shared space for everyone?
I've lived somewhere like that. It works well but then the streets were designed with that in mind; often narrow with lots of bends and poor visibility far ahead, a car driver has no choice but to go relatively slowly.
The app from blitzer.de (called CamSam in the various app stores) lets you know if there is a section control ahead. If you're still speeding, that's your own fault, I guess.
It's also planned to display the average speed during a section control, but that is not part yet of the current version, I believe.
It's also planned to display the average speed during a section control, but that is not part yet of the current version, I believe.
This has been tried in Sweden, and IIRC the court said that since it can't be proven who drove the car between the cameras it's not possible to fine the driver.
Bah, just fine the car owner, it's easy enough for him to have control of his vehicle, unless he reported it as stolen.
This isn't a murder trial, it's a minor infraction, like a parking ticket.
This isn't a murder trial, it's a minor infraction, like a parking ticket.
But what if it's not the car owner who drives the car when speeding, should the owner still be fined?
I rather see a society where guilty people skip a fine than honest people get a fine.
I rather see a society where guilty people skip a fine than honest people get a fine.
Agreed, but for some reason that's not allowed by current Swedish law.
In Washington DC, they give the owner the option of specifying who the driver was, and they forward the ticket.
We already have those in the UK
I was surprised the first time my cheap-o year-old Garmin GPS started beeping at me when I drove through an unfamiliar city: apparently it came with a free database of red-light cameras and was telling me every time I came near one, along with displaying the current speed limit. I'm not in Europe.
This system will help you identify the speed averaging plate recognition systems used on a lot of Britain's roads, but you won't be able to slow down and speed up again for the camera.
Not all cameras are static in europe, this is were these type of systems fall down. Having a subscription to some service that lists were they are and warns you and is updated by you or somebody else who pays a subscription is ok if you like to speed about on dynamic routes. Though anybody who travels the sameish journey a few times will soon know were and when to be mindful of traffic camera's.
I often see policemen with handheld speed kit and mobile camera units, most councils in even have cars with a periscope camera ontop that drive around automaticly processing so many driving violations its just to stressful to drive. But welcome to the UK/Europe and do have a nice stay as we are watching you.
I often see policemen with handheld speed kit and mobile camera units, most councils in even have cars with a periscope camera ontop that drive around automaticly processing so many driving violations its just to stressful to drive. But welcome to the UK/Europe and do have a nice stay as we are watching you.
> Not all cameras are static in europe, this is were these type of systems fall down.
Theoretically, these systems can also handle education by pointing out the current speed limit dynamically (as the speed limit may change around accidents or depending on the weather). They can also warn about other "dangers" than radars, and as the article notes the french govt had coyote change this last year: coyote now reports the user has entered a "danger zone" without specifying what the danger is (can be a radar, but can also be an accident or some other kind of issue)
Theoretically, these systems can also handle education by pointing out the current speed limit dynamically (as the speed limit may change around accidents or depending on the weather). They can also warn about other "dangers" than radars, and as the article notes the french govt had coyote change this last year: coyote now reports the user has entered a "danger zone" without specifying what the danger is (can be a radar, but can also be an accident or some other kind of issue)
The number of users is large enough now that even mobile speed cameras are now thoroughly reported for all but the really sparsely inhabited areas.
Coyote is a dynamic system. You can flag radars (or "danger zones"), and if enough people flag it everyone will be warned. You can also flag zones as being outdated (i.e. the cops have gone home)
The state should endorse this technology. Once everybody has one, they can remove the cameras and everybody will still obey their devices.
That's a very good point: if the cameras are there to prevent accidents, then these databases really are doing their job in making people slow down for them.
> if the cameras are there to prevent accidents
cameras are to easily collect fines.
cameras are to easily collect fines.
So, you can easily show those jerks, simply by respecting the speed limit!
win for you, win for the community!
win for you, win for the community!
You can easily show those jerks by driving at high speed and braking like an idiot right before you hit a speed trap.
The reason the Netherlands employs so many mobile speed traps is because people quickly learn where the fixed speed traps are and simply ignore the speed limits in between, or try to "make up for time lost by having to brake for a speed trap" (yes, I've heard and seen plenty of people do this).
This is why radar detectors are illegal in the Netherlands.
The reason the Netherlands employs so many mobile speed traps is because people quickly learn where the fixed speed traps are and simply ignore the speed limits in between, or try to "make up for time lost by having to brake for a speed trap" (yes, I've heard and seen plenty of people do this).
This is why radar detectors are illegal in the Netherlands.
Dutch people and government are obsessed with (limiting) speed, instead of focussing on keeping distance.
A nice effect of distance is less braking, which means less energy converted into useless heat and less ghost traffic jams.
It always amuses me to hear local radio news about yet another multi-vehicle collision.
In Germany, the country known for it's wonderful Autobahn, you can temporarily loose your license for tailgating.
PS: I'm dutch.
It always amuses me to hear local radio news about yet another multi-vehicle collision.
In Germany, the country known for it's wonderful Autobahn, you can temporarily loose your license for tailgating.
PS: I'm dutch.
Ha yes, totally agreeing ...
The worst part of that is when overtaking ... a traditional Dutch driver will only look to see if he has the place to go, not if the car coming at the back is much faster than him/her.
So you end up with a lot of braking when driving on the left-most lane. The "funniest" is to see that happening with Dutch drivers outside the Netherlands ... because drivers from other countries are not used to that behavior :) (disclaimer : I live in NL, but I'm not Dutch and did not learn to drive in the Netherlands)
The worst part of that is when overtaking ... a traditional Dutch driver will only look to see if he has the place to go, not if the car coming at the back is much faster than him/her.
So you end up with a lot of braking when driving on the left-most lane. The "funniest" is to see that happening with Dutch drivers outside the Netherlands ... because drivers from other countries are not used to that behavior :) (disclaimer : I live in NL, but I'm not Dutch and did not learn to drive in the Netherlands)
Mobile speed cameras that are announced on radio ...
Besides, there are still quite a few fixed speed cameras in NL AND some "trajectcontrol" camera (as mentioned by a previous poster). I actually find the latter one the only one worth it, because then you are sure that people slow down for a longer period.
Besides, there are still quite a few fixed speed cameras in NL AND some "trajectcontrol" camera (as mentioned by a previous poster). I actually find the latter one the only one worth it, because then you are sure that people slow down for a longer period.
wow, rly? I remember people slowing down to 130+10 the moment you crossed the german-dutch border. you got some crazy fines in there, don't you?
But a loss for those of us who have two brain cells to rub together. We understand that the state now has an incentive to post and enforce unreasonably low speed limits that the vast majority of drivers will violate.
When they say it's about safety, not revenue... it's about the revenue.
When they say it's about safety, not revenue... it's about the revenue.
But if there were no speed cameras, everyone would drive faster, use more fuel, and so pay more fuel tax!
And on the metro, ticket inspectors are now redundant: not true, they adapted: now the ticket inspectors board for one station and switch trains. Made every service useless in one sweep.
Coyote is a nice French startup success story, also an embedded hardware success, similar to Parrot.
I'm a bit disappointed that it fits the typical parisian pattern of elder, management consultants founders. No twenty-something founders changing the world here!
I'm a bit disappointed that it fits the typical parisian pattern of elder, management consultants founders. No twenty-something founders changing the world here!
Automated enforcement doesn't catch the most dangerous drivers (erratic tailgaters etc.) and it increases the incentive to steal or clone number plates.
It is pretty rare to see a police vehicle on the UK motorways. I probably see one on my carriageway less than once every thousand miles and that includes where they are dealing with an accident or traffic stop. Our roads are pretty safe by global standards so maybe that is ok and money is better spent engineering out accident black spots.
It is pretty rare to see a police vehicle on the UK motorways. I probably see one on my carriageway less than once every thousand miles and that includes where they are dealing with an accident or traffic stop. Our roads are pretty safe by global standards so maybe that is ok and money is better spent engineering out accident black spots.
The thing with these systems is when you get caught, you don't pay a simple fine, you just loose your driving license.
The journalists should inform themselves better, as European I doubt anyone is easily left of the hook if caught during a police control using such device.
The journalists should inform themselves better, as European I doubt anyone is easily left of the hook if caught during a police control using such device.
In Belgium it's legal to have GPS with a speedcamera database. Mobile speedcameras are commonly announced on the radio too. All perfectly legal.
Active radar detection on the other hand is illegal.
There is a system in France called Coyote which is completely legal and works extremely well. It comes with an inbuilt database of static speed traps but the killer feature is a button that each unit has which you press if you pass a mobile speed trap. The device then sends the co-ords via the GSM network back to Coyote head quarters who then relay the info to every other Coyote user in real time. It's really effective.
Site is here: http://www.moncoyote.com/
Site is here: http://www.moncoyote.com/
According to this (http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/overseas/radar-detector...):
For some years now it is has been strictly forbidden under article R413-15 of the French 'Code de la Route' (highway code) to have a speed camera detector in a car in France, regardless of whether or not it is being used. Penalties can include fines of up to €1,500, confiscation of the device and of the vehicle. Until recently this legislation didn't apply to satellite navigation or other GPS-based systems capable of displaying fixed speed camera locations as points of interest (PoI).
Effective from 3 January 2012 French laws prohibiting drivers from carrying devices capable of detecting speed cameras have been extended to include devices able to warn or inform of the location of speed cameras e.g. satnav or gps systems capable of showing speed camera sites as PoI.
As well as now banning all devices capable of warning drivers of speed camera locations, the French government is installing around 400 new fixed speed cameras and is taking down road signs indicating the location of existing fixed speed camera sites.
For some years now it is has been strictly forbidden under article R413-15 of the French 'Code de la Route' (highway code) to have a speed camera detector in a car in France, regardless of whether or not it is being used. Penalties can include fines of up to €1,500, confiscation of the device and of the vehicle. Until recently this legislation didn't apply to satellite navigation or other GPS-based systems capable of displaying fixed speed camera locations as points of interest (PoI).
Effective from 3 January 2012 French laws prohibiting drivers from carrying devices capable of detecting speed cameras have been extended to include devices able to warn or inform of the location of speed cameras e.g. satnav or gps systems capable of showing speed camera sites as PoI.
As well as now banning all devices capable of warning drivers of speed camera locations, the French government is installing around 400 new fixed speed cameras and is taking down road signs indicating the location of existing fixed speed camera sites.
Radar detectors and radar "warners" are still in a different category. In any case, all warning systems have been upgraded to become "danger zone warning systems" :)
In what country do you loose your license? Certanly not in all eu countries.
mjwalshe - you are shadow-banned. Just FYI
In Switzerland, for example, you will lose the device. But in Germany, apps on smartphones or tablet PCs are considered legal. Only devices whose sole purpose is warning of speed cameras, are banned.
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I don't know where they saw that. "Radar-detection[1] services like Coyote’s" are universally criticized by the (past and present) French government: a bill passed recently rendering their use illegal. Now such devices alert you of a "danger zone", and the hypocrisy just grows bigger.
I can be controlled for speed up to five times on a 10km, 20min commute, yet I've been controlled only two times in 20 years for alcohol.
[1] This term is incorrect, radar detection systems (the little thingies that detect radar EM emissions) are completely banned, whereas radar alert systems (where a geolocation database is filled by professionals and/or the community and checked against current position) were until recently allowed, and banned recently.