Is programming really appropriate for a seven-year-old?(blog.reindel.com)
blog.reindel.com
Is programming really appropriate for a seven-year-old?
http://blog.reindel.com/2008/12/16/is-programming-really-appropriate-for-a-seven-year-old/
49 comments
I spent a large portion of my childhood sitting in a corner with a book called Make Your Own Videogames, which taught Basic. I had no computer -- family wasn't doing well back in those days -- but I had a notebook, a pencil, a whole lot of patience, and a cheerful disregard for the notion that the fun part of playing videogames was playing them.
Nobody believes me when I say I had three years programming experience before I first touched a computer...
(I can so relate to not knowing what tag is. In my case, it was Star Wars. There was an immigrant in my high school at Spanish class who asked me about it -- eff if I knew -- so we went to another kid and said "Hey, Li here has never heard of Star Wars and all I know is the name, can you fill him in?" "Wait, you've never seen Star Wars." "Something to do with a Death Star, I know." "What country do YOU come from?!")
Nobody believes me when I say I had three years programming experience before I first touched a computer...
(I can so relate to not knowing what tag is. In my case, it was Star Wars. There was an immigrant in my high school at Spanish class who asked me about it -- eff if I knew -- so we went to another kid and said "Hey, Li here has never heard of Star Wars and all I know is the name, can you fill him in?" "Wait, you've never seen Star Wars." "Something to do with a Death Star, I know." "What country do YOU come from?!")
actually i am not quite so sure about "programming had very little to do with it"...
programming may have appealed to him given his personality, but that doesnt mean his personality is/was fixed and could not have changed... classic model is the TRD (Triadic Reciprocality Determinism) where the personality, behaviours and environment affect each other...
so in this case, he may have been mildly introverted, so the computer (the environment) offered temporary solace to his preference to introversion (personality) resulting in increasing usage (behaviors)...
now i am not saying there is anything wrong with introversion or doing what you enjoy, but you can always argue the benefits of such a choice on lifestyle and how it affects other parts of his life..
the worrying bit is the parents not thinking it was important to "go outside or something"...
programming may have appealed to him given his personality, but that doesnt mean his personality is/was fixed and could not have changed... classic model is the TRD (Triadic Reciprocality Determinism) where the personality, behaviours and environment affect each other...
so in this case, he may have been mildly introverted, so the computer (the environment) offered temporary solace to his preference to introversion (personality) resulting in increasing usage (behaviors)...
now i am not saying there is anything wrong with introversion or doing what you enjoy, but you can always argue the benefits of such a choice on lifestyle and how it affects other parts of his life..
the worrying bit is the parents not thinking it was important to "go outside or something"...
I came home from school each day and programmed late into the night too. Unlike your friend, my parents DID think I "needed to go outside or something." haha
>I had to explain what "tag" was.
That's really scary. I can imagine the conversation. "It's a game that children play." "Chil...dren?"
That's really scary. I can imagine the conversation. "It's a game that children play." "Chil...dren?"
I started programming when I was about 11.
I don't remember which one of us found out about it first, but a friend of mine and I came to the realization that the Apple IIe computer in our school classroom had this thing called a BASIC Interpreter on it, and we could write files of instructions to tell the computer what to do.
We loved playing the Infocom text adventure games, and we figured out that we could use BASIC to do text input and output, and put in IF lines to direct the computer to print out this line or that line based on what the user typed in. So we started writing our own text adventure games. Very simple, of course, but we loved it.
Variably, one or two other people would hang out at the computer with us, offering suggestions and trying out some lines of BASIC. We decided that programming the computer was more fun than going outside to play at recess, so we began to stay inside when the other kids went out. At first there was no problem, but eventually our teacher became concerned that we needed more social time outside with the other kids, but agreed to let us stay inside to program every other day.
A kid who spends time programming probably isn't on the path to being a social butterfly, but very likely wasn't on that path in the first place anyway. Programming is not inherintly "anti-social" or (completely) "solitary", but it may be harder at a young age to happen upon peers who are interested in it as well.
I don't remember which one of us found out about it first, but a friend of mine and I came to the realization that the Apple IIe computer in our school classroom had this thing called a BASIC Interpreter on it, and we could write files of instructions to tell the computer what to do.
We loved playing the Infocom text adventure games, and we figured out that we could use BASIC to do text input and output, and put in IF lines to direct the computer to print out this line or that line based on what the user typed in. So we started writing our own text adventure games. Very simple, of course, but we loved it.
Variably, one or two other people would hang out at the computer with us, offering suggestions and trying out some lines of BASIC. We decided that programming the computer was more fun than going outside to play at recess, so we began to stay inside when the other kids went out. At first there was no problem, but eventually our teacher became concerned that we needed more social time outside with the other kids, but agreed to let us stay inside to program every other day.
A kid who spends time programming probably isn't on the path to being a social butterfly, but very likely wasn't on that path in the first place anyway. Programming is not inherintly "anti-social" or (completely) "solitary", but it may be harder at a young age to happen upon peers who are interested in it as well.
Reading is another activity done in sedentary solitude. A seven-year old shouldn't spend all day reading or coding, and most wouldn't want to.
I wouldn't fret about how young to introduce programming to a kid. I learned to program when my dad worked from home one day and I asked him what he was doing.
I wouldn't fret about how young to introduce programming to a kid. I learned to program when my dad worked from home one day and I asked him what he was doing.
Careful or we'll never have another Einstein.
don't worry. it's hard to fend off one of those.
Pair programming. Teamwork, tolerance, communication, patience. Not bad for children.
What bothers me is that computers are a lot less accessible today than in the 80s. I almost feel jealous that I didn't have an 8bit computer when I was a preteen :-).
I used to spend a big chunk of my free time then reading books in the library along with a couple of girls. We would then discuss with the other kids what cool books we had found. Reading and discussing texts is extraordinarily fun and it sparked my interest in reading. Programming can also be popularized the same way.
What bothers me is that computers are a lot less accessible today than in the 80s. I almost feel jealous that I didn't have an 8bit computer when I was a preteen :-).
I used to spend a big chunk of my free time then reading books in the library along with a couple of girls. We would then discuss with the other kids what cool books we had found. Reading and discussing texts is extraordinarily fun and it sparked my interest in reading. Programming can also be popularized the same way.
Javascript?
I started programming when I was about 9.
I was at a friends place and he was showing me this new Vic20 his parents had bought him. I don't recall ever having anything to do with computers before, but he spent a while showing me how you can programme it. That was it. I was hooked.
I still have my Vic20 User Guide sitting on the bookshelf here. It's well worn, the back cover fell off years ago, but there's no way I'm getting rid of it.
I was at a friends place and he was showing me this new Vic20 his parents had bought him. I don't recall ever having anything to do with computers before, but he spent a while showing me how you can programme it. That was it. I was hooked.
I still have my Vic20 User Guide sitting on the bookshelf here. It's well worn, the back cover fell off years ago, but there's no way I'm getting rid of it.
Did anyone else start programming on TI calculators? I was 11 when I got a TI-83, which is essentially a portable editor and compiler. Not only could you write TI-Basic and z80 assembly, you could write pseudo-assembly with the Basic commands due to bad syntax checking - and you could do it anywhere! Oh the nostalgia. I lament the day my 83 died.
But was this to the detriment of my personality? I say no. Not only did it encourage relationships with like-minded peers, it also helped me understand the social attitudes through design (products for people's needs). I would like to think that I came out alright - socially-competent in respects. In fact, I'm not even the type that you would peg as a programmer.
But was this to the detriment of my personality? I say no. Not only did it encourage relationships with like-minded peers, it also helped me understand the social attitudes through design (products for people's needs). I would like to think that I came out alright - socially-competent in respects. In fact, I'm not even the type that you would peg as a programmer.
Why not just let the kids do what they want to do? Also, at 7 they already have maths at school. Why not throw in some LOGO exercises, too.
actually thats a good idea, but it has to be complemented with balance (ie for other activities too)... kids (like anyone else) may get too comfortable with routine and what they find easy, if they are not put in an environment that challenges all aspects of their behaviours and/or psyche.
I started programming when I was 7 years old. I used this goofy thing called TrueBASIC, which was the result of the guys from Dartmouth who did the original BASIC trying to go back and modernize it. Then I moved onto HyperCard and a bunch of other languages like that.
It gave me a headstart in my field, but not proportional to the time spent.
What I did learn from these experiences making games and little apps with other kids online was that it's perfectly natural to put a ton of effort into something that no one else is expecting you to do. That you can actually have fun working and learning. That having real pride in your work is a motivator like no other.
This seems pretty common to us HN folks, but I know so many people who are afraid to do anything outside of school/work because the either the concept of intrinsic motivation is alien or because they're afraid to invest effort into something "unsanctioned" that they could fail at.
It gave me a headstart in my field, but not proportional to the time spent.
What I did learn from these experiences making games and little apps with other kids online was that it's perfectly natural to put a ton of effort into something that no one else is expecting you to do. That you can actually have fun working and learning. That having real pride in your work is a motivator like no other.
This seems pretty common to us HN folks, but I know so many people who are afraid to do anything outside of school/work because the either the concept of intrinsic motivation is alien or because they're afraid to invest effort into something "unsanctioned" that they could fail at.
It's important to note that starting early does not necessarily make you a good programmer as an adult.
I do not remember ever not programming. My first programming memories were at 6 but I have no memories before then anyway. I have pictures and my parents say I started with simple BASIC programs at about age 4. I started 6502 assembler at about 7, and C at 9. I was pretty good at C by 11, then went to Pascal, and so on and so forth.
Now? I'm formally a mediocre programmer at best - despite doing it for some 23 years now on and off. In this sense, I think programming early is no different to "drawing" or "writing" early.. just because you start early doesn't mean you'll be a top artist or author one day. If drawing and writing are appropriate for a seven year old, then why not programming?
I do not remember ever not programming. My first programming memories were at 6 but I have no memories before then anyway. I have pictures and my parents say I started with simple BASIC programs at about age 4. I started 6502 assembler at about 7, and C at 9. I was pretty good at C by 11, then went to Pascal, and so on and so forth.
Now? I'm formally a mediocre programmer at best - despite doing it for some 23 years now on and off. In this sense, I think programming early is no different to "drawing" or "writing" early.. just because you start early doesn't mean you'll be a top artist or author one day. If drawing and writing are appropriate for a seven year old, then why not programming?
My brother and I both started programming around age 5 or 6 when we discovered QBasic. We switched to Visual Basic years later, then he lost interest. I picked up C++ and kept going from there.
Today, I'm a software developer and he's a network administrator. He has no interest in programming.
Today, I'm a software developer and he's a network administrator. He has no interest in programming.
I think I wrote my first programs at the age of five, on a ZX81 my uncle had put together.
Despite this exposure to BASIC, my programming abilities seem to have survived. So I would say - if they can hack it, GO!
Despite this exposure to BASIC, my programming abilities seem to have survived. So I would say - if they can hack it, GO!
I would have done anything to program at seven. I knew that computer games were made by people (and sometimes, by a single person), and I was determined to do it, but nobody around knew how to get me started.
It wasn't till I was ten or eleven that a friend announced to me that he had found a program on his computer that would allow us to make video games (qbasic).
I think the thing I missed out on most is having a few more years of wildly creative programming without being encumbered by any ideas about the right way to program.
It wasn't till I was ten or eleven that a friend announced to me that he had found a program on his computer that would allow us to make video games (qbasic).
I think the thing I missed out on most is having a few more years of wildly creative programming without being encumbered by any ideas about the right way to program.
I think it's appropriate, but you have to start small. Get him or her a set of Lego Mindstorm. That's a bit over the kids head, but I'm sure you won't mind having to spend time playing with Legos to help the kid understand.
Robotics is great for teaching programming. Alternatively, get the kid a copy of the board game "Robo Rally."
Robotics is great for teaching programming. Alternatively, get the kid a copy of the board game "Robo Rally."
You don't want your child programming in six years.
You want her PLAYING... And she can PLAY with: Logo, Lego weDO, Lego MindStorms MIT Scratch, CMU Alice SmallTalk Etoys and OpenCorquet..
pretty entertaining, and educative... but most of all FUN
You want her PLAYING... And she can PLAY with: Logo, Lego weDO, Lego MindStorms MIT Scratch, CMU Alice SmallTalk Etoys and OpenCorquet..
pretty entertaining, and educative... but most of all FUN
Programming can be fun. Playing is also a form of learning. At 8 I had little interest in programming but once I figured out how to draw graphics using QBasic I was hooked. Point, Lines, Loops, a little math, and now my rocket ship has smoke rings as it moves across the screen.
yes
I think the whole post is needlessly inflammatory.
Sex isn't appropriate for a 7-year-old.
Programming? Whatever.
(Not to mention he assumes that any interest in programming comes from the parent leading the kid to do it. I discovered programming on my own at 6, thanks.)
Sex isn't appropriate for a 7-year-old.
Programming? Whatever.
(Not to mention he assumes that any interest in programming comes from the parent leading the kid to do it. I discovered programming on my own at 6, thanks.)
Not to mention he assumes that any interest in programming comes from the parent leading the kid to do it. I discovered programming on my own at 6, thanks.
Right. I have a nephew who is 8 or so and has been begging to learn how to program for at least a year. I almost got him an OLPC when they came out, but his father decided to hold off for a while.
I'm pretty sure that if I had run across computers at that age, instead of a few years later, I'd have felt the same way.
Right. I have a nephew who is 8 or so and has been begging to learn how to program for at least a year. I almost got him an OLPC when they came out, but his father decided to hold off for a while.
I'm pretty sure that if I had run across computers at that age, instead of a few years later, I'd have felt the same way.
I got one for my stepson (7) last year. He's had a lot of fun making random Weewar maps and looking up Zelda online, but the programming interest hasn't grown. Though he keeps wanting to "do a deal with Lucas and Nintendo" to write a Zelda and Star Wars game.
I started programming silliness at 12. I would have probably been fine getting into it earlier, but I'm not so sure I would have given it much mindshare earlier than that.
I started programming silliness at 12. I would have probably been fine getting into it earlier, but I'm not so sure I would have given it much mindshare earlier than that.
Don't know Weewar, but maybe creating maps for it is already a bit like programming?
What I always wonder about, how do we know what is best for our kids future? Maybe in 20 years 80% of our lives will take place in virtual worlds, and kids having grown up with computer games will have a real advantage then. Maybe the "get outside and play" paradigm was appropiate for a time when the most likely careers where lumberjack and potatoe picker?
What I always wonder about, how do we know what is best for our kids future? Maybe in 20 years 80% of our lives will take place in virtual worlds, and kids having grown up with computer games will have a real advantage then. Maybe the "get outside and play" paradigm was appropiate for a time when the most likely careers where lumberjack and potatoe picker?
I agree, it's a bit shock-jockish. His point isn't really that PROGRAMMING isn't appropriate, but that parents shouldn't force things on their kids too early.
Why is sex inappropriate for young people?
I'm not trying to troll. I've genuinely never heard a good, logical answer. It seems to be a feeling people have, and I'm curious if there is a reason behind it. Of course there are dangers like adult pedophiles, but supposing those were avoided... Perhaps it's better to consider just the case of seeing sex, not participating, and having play/pause/stop buttons in the child's control. People loathe that, but I'm not quite sure what harm is done besides the vague idea of "loss of innocence".
I'm not trying to troll. I've genuinely never heard a good, logical answer. It seems to be a feeling people have, and I'm curious if there is a reason behind it. Of course there are dangers like adult pedophiles, but supposing those were avoided... Perhaps it's better to consider just the case of seeing sex, not participating, and having play/pause/stop buttons in the child's control. People loathe that, but I'm not quite sure what harm is done besides the vague idea of "loss of innocence".
there are dangers like adult pedophiles, but supposing those were avoided...
When trying to explain why the cultural taboo exists, I'm not sure you get to elide that problem. How do you "avoid" these dangers? Societies try to do so by inventing cultural taboos!
Sex is inappropriate for children because (society presumes) most of them are not equipped to say no and make it stick. They lack the emotional, financial, and legal resources to "break up" with abusive or manipulative lovers -- particularly if those lovers are adults, and most particularly if those adults are family members.
(Note that, by this logic, sex is also inappropriate for a lot of adults. And there might be some people who are legally "children" who are nonetheless responsible and wise enough for sex (I certainly wasn't one, and I can't say that I've ever seen any, but it is theoretically possible... :) Like many societies, American society tries to deal with this ambiguity by defining a magic calendar age at which children legally and morally become adults. Alhough nobody ever said that this was a particularly realistic model, it's the one we've got. We do tinker with it occasionally, on a case-by-case basis.)
Why sex and not, say, football? (It's a good question -- a lot of kids get hurt when they're pressured into playing football.) Probably because sex carries a particularly heavy set of practical, social, and emotional consequences that are difficult to separate from it. (Birth control helps a lot, but it is not enough, as many AIDS patients and stalking victims know.)
When trying to explain why the cultural taboo exists, I'm not sure you get to elide that problem. How do you "avoid" these dangers? Societies try to do so by inventing cultural taboos!
Sex is inappropriate for children because (society presumes) most of them are not equipped to say no and make it stick. They lack the emotional, financial, and legal resources to "break up" with abusive or manipulative lovers -- particularly if those lovers are adults, and most particularly if those adults are family members.
(Note that, by this logic, sex is also inappropriate for a lot of adults. And there might be some people who are legally "children" who are nonetheless responsible and wise enough for sex (I certainly wasn't one, and I can't say that I've ever seen any, but it is theoretically possible... :) Like many societies, American society tries to deal with this ambiguity by defining a magic calendar age at which children legally and morally become adults. Alhough nobody ever said that this was a particularly realistic model, it's the one we've got. We do tinker with it occasionally, on a case-by-case basis.)
Why sex and not, say, football? (It's a good question -- a lot of kids get hurt when they're pressured into playing football.) Probably because sex carries a particularly heavy set of practical, social, and emotional consequences that are difficult to separate from it. (Birth control helps a lot, but it is not enough, as many AIDS patients and stalking victims know.)
So, why the taboo on letting 14 year olds rent/buy porn DVDs?
Are you saying it's an irrational taboo? Or a rational taboo? Is using 18 as the magic age for buying porn really the best we can do?
Are you saying it's an irrational taboo? Or a rational taboo? Is using 18 as the magic age for buying porn really the best we can do?
I've suggested a rationale for the taboo, but I don't think there is such a thing as a "rational taboo". That's not how they work. The whole point of a taboo is that it doesn't require, or even allow, much rational thought. That's a design feature.
The problem with rational decision-making as a universal strategy is that people can be really bad at it. Especially when they really want to hit on that hot 14-year-old, or stab their bastard half-brother, or eat that triple cheeseburger. You'd be amazed at the kind of "logic" that people can apply in a situation like that. Or when the data that's required to make a rational decision is outside their personal experience. (If every generation had to experiment with living in the swamp -- losing half its population to malaria in the process -- it would be a lot less efficient than a simple taboo against swamp dwelling.)
So, yeah, it's irrational. Sometimes that is a good thing. More often you need to use some applied hypocrisy to keep your taboos aligned with reality. And sometimes it's time to chuck the old taboos and develop some shiny new ones.
In the particular case of 14 year olds and porn DVDs? Technology is moving so fast that the taboos can't keep up. Only a few decades ago it was taboo for fifty-year-olds to rent porn DVDs -- read Eric Schlosser's Reefer Madness for examples. That is changing very, very quickly thanks to the Internet, which has eroded the porn taboo pretty thoroughly. Who cares about DVDs anymore? We've only just woken up to discover that every 14-year-old in America has a free porn machine sitting on his or her desk, and social norms are struggling to catch up with that.
The problem with rational decision-making as a universal strategy is that people can be really bad at it. Especially when they really want to hit on that hot 14-year-old, or stab their bastard half-brother, or eat that triple cheeseburger. You'd be amazed at the kind of "logic" that people can apply in a situation like that. Or when the data that's required to make a rational decision is outside their personal experience. (If every generation had to experiment with living in the swamp -- losing half its population to malaria in the process -- it would be a lot less efficient than a simple taboo against swamp dwelling.)
So, yeah, it's irrational. Sometimes that is a good thing. More often you need to use some applied hypocrisy to keep your taboos aligned with reality. And sometimes it's time to chuck the old taboos and develop some shiny new ones.
In the particular case of 14 year olds and porn DVDs? Technology is moving so fast that the taboos can't keep up. Only a few decades ago it was taboo for fifty-year-olds to rent porn DVDs -- read Eric Schlosser's Reefer Madness for examples. That is changing very, very quickly thanks to the Internet, which has eroded the porn taboo pretty thoroughly. Who cares about DVDs anymore? We've only just woken up to discover that every 14-year-old in America has a free porn machine sitting on his or her desk, and social norms are struggling to catch up with that.
thanks.
Was I the only one to think sex was disgusting and immoral when I was young? (like, 5 years old)
When I was 15 I thought the idea of anyone over 20 doing it was disgusting. :-)
But that's not quite what you meant.
But that's not quite what you meant.
Kids that age say things like "why are they eating each other" or "eeeeew, boy germs/cooties" or things like that.
I think that's common. Most young kids wouldn't want anything to do with sex. In all of those cases, the prohibition on them having anything to do with sex is kinda useless/redundant.
I meant as "the having of sex" not "being aware of / seeing images of sex". I found out about sex at an early age too (thanks, Internet!) and it didn't twist me.
I'm with you on the general demonisation of sex-under-18. But I don't think I'd want my 7yo having sex. Not even with another 7yo. If that were possible.
I'm with you on the general demonisation of sex-under-18. But I don't think I'd want my 7yo having sex. Not even with another 7yo. If that were possible.
He's a very sweet, quiet and introverted guy whom some people think of as a little, uh, inaccessible. But as someone else commented, there's no way of determining cause and effect here. I'm inclined to believe he's just the way he is, and programming had little to do with it.
A story from the same project: we were designing something at a whiteboard and I said, about a sort of messaging sequence: It's like a game of frozen tag... when this thingy gets a message, it has to wait until another thingy comes along and starts it again. He said, "Frozen what?" Frozen tag. You know frozen tag? "No, what's that?" Well, you know what tag is, right? The kids' game called tag? "No. What's tag?"
I had to explain what "tag" was.