Ask HN: Is Traditional College Education Obsolete in the Tech Industry?
9 comments
Technology is not as fast paced as headlines make people think. For web applications, XHR (XMLHttpRequest) came from Microsoft in ~1998 and has essentially been used ad nauseam to do all sorts of dynamically rendering parts of HTML pages for 25 years. Its much cheaper/better than building client side software that has to be deployed and patched across a bunch of OSes. Sure there are patterns and frameworks, etc. that have come (and gone) for the web but the core fundamentals for building a web app are mostly unchanged. What about AI/ML? Companies 20+ years ago built out search engines, I see this as an evolution of that, indexing web content/text and providing more context driven outputs.
Some employers value degrees, some don't. Having a degree opens doors or rather you don't get HR/profiling to slam doors in your face because you didn't check the box.
My path was CS before Google was a household name (mid 90's). CS was just barely spun off of Math departments. I picked CS because I liked computer games and building PC's and doing stuff with computers was (and still is) fun. I found the CS program beneficial, establishing a core knowledge of how computers work and what happens when you run programs.
I'd say if you're in it for a career (aka a lifetime), get a degree. If you're in it as a stepping stone or changing careers or see the salaries and are chasing money, go to a bootcamp or equivalent to get up to speed to be proficient.
Some employers value degrees, some don't. Having a degree opens doors or rather you don't get HR/profiling to slam doors in your face because you didn't check the box.
My path was CS before Google was a household name (mid 90's). CS was just barely spun off of Math departments. I picked CS because I liked computer games and building PC's and doing stuff with computers was (and still is) fun. I found the CS program beneficial, establishing a core knowledge of how computers work and what happens when you run programs.
I'd say if you're in it for a career (aka a lifetime), get a degree. If you're in it as a stepping stone or changing careers or see the salaries and are chasing money, go to a bootcamp or equivalent to get up to speed to be proficient.
Not at all, the existence of alternative paths doesn't make the main path (degree -> first job) obsolete.
1 - No idea as I've not kept up with what traditional higher education programs are teaching! Graduates keep being hireable though.
2 - Not American and I don't subscribe to the only point of higher education being to prepare you for work so yes I think it still has lots of value. The cost in the US is very high though!
3 - I want someone to show to me that they can do the job they are applying for. Having a higher education degree is potentially one part of that signal but not the only one. The company I work for right now says: We have intentionally removed academic qualifications from all our job specs. We welcome applicants of all ages, genders, work histories and academic qualifications who can demonstrate the requirements below. Our work environment is welcoming and open. We value diverse perspectives and backgrounds, and work hard to make sure everyone in the company has a voice.
4 - Higher education is in part self-directed so I think the advancement of online and alternative resources just makes that better and students experience richer if they take advantage of it. They're complementary basically.
5 - I did a degree directly relating to my job field (Computer Games Technology) and the best things I got from it were a community of like-minded people, lots of networking opportunities and some fun projects to inspire me. I was largely self-taught beforehand, my secondary education I tailored towards making games so found most of the academic work things I already knew peppered with interesting insights and some new stuff later on.
2 - Not American and I don't subscribe to the only point of higher education being to prepare you for work so yes I think it still has lots of value. The cost in the US is very high though!
3 - I want someone to show to me that they can do the job they are applying for. Having a higher education degree is potentially one part of that signal but not the only one. The company I work for right now says: We have intentionally removed academic qualifications from all our job specs. We welcome applicants of all ages, genders, work histories and academic qualifications who can demonstrate the requirements below. Our work environment is welcoming and open. We value diverse perspectives and backgrounds, and work hard to make sure everyone in the company has a voice.
4 - Higher education is in part self-directed so I think the advancement of online and alternative resources just makes that better and students experience richer if they take advantage of it. They're complementary basically.
5 - I did a degree directly relating to my job field (Computer Games Technology) and the best things I got from it were a community of like-minded people, lots of networking opportunities and some fun projects to inspire me. I was largely self-taught beforehand, my secondary education I tailored towards making games so found most of the academic work things I already knew peppered with interesting insights and some new stuff later on.
>How well do you think traditional college programs are keeping up with the fast-paced evolution of technology?
On the whole, technology is evolving a lot more slowly than it used to. For example, programming in 1980 was a lot more different to programming in 1990 than programming in 2024 is to programming in 2014. These days it's just about feasible to use a ten year old desktop as a dev machine, which would have been pretty much unthinkable in the 80s, 90s or 2000s. So I don't think college education is going to have some kind of new problem of keeping up with the evolution of technology. That problem has already peaked (in tech at least).
On the whole, technology is evolving a lot more slowly than it used to. For example, programming in 1980 was a lot more different to programming in 1990 than programming in 2024 is to programming in 2014. These days it's just about feasible to use a ten year old desktop as a dev machine, which would have been pretty much unthinkable in the 80s, 90s or 2000s. So I don't think college education is going to have some kind of new problem of keeping up with the evolution of technology. That problem has already peaked (in tech at least).
1. They've taken to offering those bootcamps or at least hosting those types of training themselves. As far as the traditional university rigor goes, they still teach data structures and PLC the same way that they always have, but I don't necessarily think that is a bad thing. There is value in knowing those concepts even though most 9-5 SWE don't need or care about them. There is also benefit in working and struggling with a cohort: in traditional universities many students often share classes with one another (at least the majors classes) so you can make life-long relationships.
2. It depends. If the goal is to be employed as a "normie" SWE, then no. If the goal is to work in a STEM field, then maybe. If the goal is to be an academic or researcher, then yes.
3. I can easily name a dozen or more very excellent engineers that either never went to traditional university or had degrees in other fields. When I hire I'm looking as much for drive, motivation, personality, and levelheadedness as I am for knowledge, and academic credentialism is a second tier (or lower) consideration.
4. Probably answering along the same lines as #2. People and markets will find the highest value.
5. Worked in a university system for a total of a decade - about 15 years ago - including a two year stint at a prestigious engineering/science/compsci school in the southeast. I'm sure things have changed but as with all super large bodies it probably hasn't been much. I also still have friends that work in those places and we talk frequently about the state of things (usually by complaining about it). I took advantage of the paid tuition while I was there, working as a desktop tech and taking classes as night. During that ten years I became so frustrated with the way things were run - it was mentally and emotionally draining. It was also fraught with abuse, mismanagement, scandal, and there was no career path (there were only COLA raises no matter how well you performed or what certifications/degrees you got). As much as I loved the university the administrative side of things have ruined it. And all that was before this new wave of distaste and distrust with universities.
2. It depends. If the goal is to be employed as a "normie" SWE, then no. If the goal is to work in a STEM field, then maybe. If the goal is to be an academic or researcher, then yes.
3. I can easily name a dozen or more very excellent engineers that either never went to traditional university or had degrees in other fields. When I hire I'm looking as much for drive, motivation, personality, and levelheadedness as I am for knowledge, and academic credentialism is a second tier (or lower) consideration.
4. Probably answering along the same lines as #2. People and markets will find the highest value.
5. Worked in a university system for a total of a decade - about 15 years ago - including a two year stint at a prestigious engineering/science/compsci school in the southeast. I'm sure things have changed but as with all super large bodies it probably hasn't been much. I also still have friends that work in those places and we talk frequently about the state of things (usually by complaining about it). I took advantage of the paid tuition while I was there, working as a desktop tech and taking classes as night. During that ten years I became so frustrated with the way things were run - it was mentally and emotionally draining. It was also fraught with abuse, mismanagement, scandal, and there was no career path (there were only COLA raises no matter how well you performed or what certifications/degrees you got). As much as I loved the university the administrative side of things have ruined it. And all that was before this new wave of distaste and distrust with universities.
Knowledge and skill-wise, it's obsolete for the vast majority of jobs that exist, but in reality, it will be a struggle to get hired without a degree, not just because of the status marker that is a degree, but primarily because industries are increasingly getting into bed with colleges: modern hiring pipelines now begin in college, with unpaid internships being an almost necessary entrypoint for a variety of industries and roles.
Modern students who someday want a job are effectively paying (college tuition) for the privilege of working for free (unpaid internships) just to have the chance to one day get a paid position with industry incumbents. Typically, an apprentice is paid for their work, but rebranded as an internship, suddenly students have no problem paying to work instead of getting paid to work.
It's especially spurious given the scope creep of a lot of these apprentice-internships. Students are so desperate and indoctrinated that they'll acquiesce to such a poor deal. Companies learned of this desperation and are taking advantage of it, getting free work while the student pays for the opportunity.
What company wouldn't take advantage of that deal?
Modern students who someday want a job are effectively paying (college tuition) for the privilege of working for free (unpaid internships) just to have the chance to one day get a paid position with industry incumbents. Typically, an apprentice is paid for their work, but rebranded as an internship, suddenly students have no problem paying to work instead of getting paid to work.
It's especially spurious given the scope creep of a lot of these apprentice-internships. Students are so desperate and indoctrinated that they'll acquiesce to such a poor deal. Companies learned of this desperation and are taking advantage of it, getting free work while the student pays for the opportunity.
What company wouldn't take advantage of that deal?
Students in my lab are having disability on basic computer literary such as explain what CPU GPU HDD do in a pc, read the error message and do google-fu, etc. And yes they are CS students. Only 10% of them can comprehend the idea of for loop after 4 years of formal training. Imagine that a guy stand in front of you say he is a master chef from some chef school but don't know shit about his cooking gears.
Seriously just go read some CompTIA A+ books then anyone can be more usable than 90% of CS grad population.
Seriously just go read some CompTIA A+ books then anyone can be more usable than 90% of CS grad population.
A degree is simply a piece of paper that will open certain doors, but there is no guarantee it will get you through them. You can still open lots of other doors without it but some will remain closed or be difficult to open. Those are doors you might not want to go through anyways.
I don't have a degree and it has not hindered my 10+ year career. However, certain immigration related things I'd like to do are difficult if not impossible without it, but I'll admit that is highly specific to me.
I don't have a degree and it has not hindered my 10+ year career. However, certain immigration related things I'd like to do are difficult if not impossible without it, but I'll admit that is highly specific to me.
1. CS programs tend to focus on fundamentals that are building blocks for many things in the industry, even with a fast-pace of change (or more often high level of churn) so "keeping up" is probably better left to specialized programs or bootcamps to teach very specific technology rather than academic/foundational principles. However it'd probably serve CS tracks well to introduce something like a CompTIA A+ course as a 101 class since a lot of the tracks are predicated on students knowing the basics of a computer, which is increasingly less common as the post-PC era kids are becoming college aged.
2. It depends. There aren't really any shortcuts to becoming a well-versed or competent engineer. Being self-taught still requires putting in as many hours (or probably much, much more) than going through a traditional 4yr CS program and that probably is a much more difficult path in almost every case.
3. I don't know how much weight is put on this in general, but my experience is that not having a degree results in a lot of applications being discarded immediately. I personally don't care about someone's background as long as they know what they are doing or are capable learners.
4. I think this is kind of flipping in the opposite direction in the last handful of years. There was a sweet spot in the 2010s where self-teaching using online resources was very doable and it wasn't terribly hard to find high quality content- but with the rise of CV-boosting blogspam that just rewrites the "Getting Started" page of a popular framework (a large chunk of Medium) and AI-generated content being pumped to the top of web search results it is becoming very difficult to find high-quality, accurate content to base learning off of and I think returning to books or forms of learning provided by traditional ed will become more common as there is some curation and signals for quality.
5. My background is self-taught through being generally interested in computers and just learning anything I could through using Linux/FOSS tools/engaging with various communities adjacent to those interests. College wasn't accessible to me for cost reasons, so I got a job as a tech support rep after high school to get a foot in the door of a software company and climbed through QA to software engineer, to infrastructure, devops and whatever else in-between. I think college is still the best path for most people because self-learning either requires insane amounts of discipline or an unusually deep interest in computers and tech for its own sake (not just as a means to an end of a job). I also think the tech industry has matured a lot and the era of getting hired by being self-taught with some demonstrable skills is over just due to the sheer volume of job seekers in the industry and a degree being the minimum gate used when evaluating new hires.
2. It depends. There aren't really any shortcuts to becoming a well-versed or competent engineer. Being self-taught still requires putting in as many hours (or probably much, much more) than going through a traditional 4yr CS program and that probably is a much more difficult path in almost every case.
3. I don't know how much weight is put on this in general, but my experience is that not having a degree results in a lot of applications being discarded immediately. I personally don't care about someone's background as long as they know what they are doing or are capable learners.
4. I think this is kind of flipping in the opposite direction in the last handful of years. There was a sweet spot in the 2010s where self-teaching using online resources was very doable and it wasn't terribly hard to find high quality content- but with the rise of CV-boosting blogspam that just rewrites the "Getting Started" page of a popular framework (a large chunk of Medium) and AI-generated content being pumped to the top of web search results it is becoming very difficult to find high-quality, accurate content to base learning off of and I think returning to books or forms of learning provided by traditional ed will become more common as there is some curation and signals for quality.
5. My background is self-taught through being generally interested in computers and just learning anything I could through using Linux/FOSS tools/engaging with various communities adjacent to those interests. College wasn't accessible to me for cost reasons, so I got a job as a tech support rep after high school to get a foot in the door of a software company and climbed through QA to software engineer, to infrastructure, devops and whatever else in-between. I think college is still the best path for most people because self-learning either requires insane amounts of discipline or an unusually deep interest in computers and tech for its own sake (not just as a means to an end of a job). I also think the tech industry has matured a lot and the era of getting hired by being self-taught with some demonstrable skills is over just due to the sheer volume of job seekers in the industry and a degree being the minimum gate used when evaluating new hires.
Knowledge can be acquired in a number of ways now. online courses, bootcamps, self-learning, etc.
1. How well do you think traditional college programs are keeping up with the fast-paced evolution of technology? 2. Given the high costs of college education, do you believe the investment is still justified by the value it provides, especially in the tech industry? 3. How much weight do employers in tech currently place on formal education versus practical experience and self-taught skills? 4. With the continual advancement of online and alternative educational resources, what do you foresee for the future of traditional college education in our field? 5. If you're comfortable sharing, what was your path like? Did you find your college education beneficial in your tech career, or did you take a different route?
I'm keen to hear a variety of perspectives, especially from those who have navigated different paths in the tech industry.
Full disclaimer: I work in tech but also teach post-graduate level for AI/ML.