Of Booze and Brogrammers(databasesoup.com)
databasesoup.com
Of Booze and Brogrammers
http://www.databasesoup.com/2012/04/of-booze-and-brogrammers.html
14 comments
The other piece to that is in most cases these events are the only time some groups of friends or strong acquaintances have the opportunity to hang out and bond face to face. confer. I would argue that is human nature to want to celebrate with friends who you only see on rare occasion and drinking tends to be the most easily and socially acceptable way of doing so. In many cases it is at these events that many times acquaintances become stronger relationships through just hanging out as people post conference.
Almost exactly what I was going to say. I have a team of employees that work in San Francisco. I work from home in Annapolis, MD, on the opposite side of the country.
I don't see them often enough and while I certainly love my co-workers, I try to pack as much face time in whenever I'm on their side of the country as I'm able.
If I'm there for a conference, it's because I want to learn, or be enriched by whatever the conference is offering -- but I can bet that for certain I'll be hanging out late with the peeps I don't get to see enough as well.
I don't see them often enough and while I certainly love my co-workers, I try to pack as much face time in whenever I'm on their side of the country as I'm able.
If I'm there for a conference, it's because I want to learn, or be enriched by whatever the conference is offering -- but I can bet that for certain I'll be hanging out late with the peeps I don't get to see enough as well.
It's America's (crappy) solution to our relatively low number of vacation days.
This would suggest that you'd find less conference participation in places with more generous vacation policies, like Western Europe or Australia. Anecdotally I haven't seen any evidence that that is true, although it might be.
This would suggest that you'd find less conference participation in places with more generous vacation policies, like Western Europe or Australia. Anecdotally I haven't seen any evidence that that is true, although it might be.
What I have heard from various people is that conference attendees in the US tend to be much more focused on socializing, whereas in Europe most people will attend the sessions and then go home. But shorter travel distances may also be a factor.
On a related note: alcohol laws may also make a big difference. Europeans have pretty much grown out of the "awesome, I can drink legally now" phase by the time they hit 25, Americans in that age group tend to have a slightly immature alcohol culture.
On a related note: alcohol laws may also make a big difference. Europeans have pretty much grown out of the "awesome, I can drink legally now" phase by the time they hit 25, Americans in that age group tend to have a slightly immature alcohol culture.
I think this is a major part of it. In Europe many kids are drinking like crazy when they're 15. By the time they're 21, binging and going nuts is sort of passe. Underage drinking is also not seen in the same way as it is in the US. The attitude is more "it's better not to drink when you're a kid" rather than "kids drinking is the root of all evil".
I think there is a much more mature view of alcohol consumption. On the other hand, many Europeans seem to have a much more hard-line view on drugs (even marijuana).
But when you consider the history of the US, it is not surprising. We are still less than 100 years away from Prohibition.
I think there is a much more mature view of alcohol consumption. On the other hand, many Europeans seem to have a much more hard-line view on drugs (even marijuana).
But when you consider the history of the US, it is not surprising. We are still less than 100 years away from Prohibition.
Oh please. You haven't seen salesmen meetups. Or doctor parties sponsored by pharmacy. Conference is an euphemism for getting wasted for free.
It might also suggest that conferences in those places might be a bit more technology-oriented and less like spring break in Maui.
I agree with this guy to an extent. Drinking doesn't bother me, but I don't like "parties." High density socializing and musical/similar entertainment isn't for me (introvert), so it's great when events have something more focused and event related to attend (as well as the party, of course) rather than go watch TV in the hotel room (which, admittedly, I enjoy ;-))
At some events (especially smaller ones), "parties" can seem to be at the expense of things like BoFs (as he mentions), lightning talks, hackathons, etc, and when you have so much talent all in one place, it seems a shame to waste opportunities for it to come together productively.
Some of my best conference moments have been sitting around with 10-20 people in hotel lobbies talking or in empty conference rooms coding. The worst have been crammed into a bar and having to shout at strangers. As the author suggests, let the partiers party, but give some space to the squares too ;-)
At some events (especially smaller ones), "parties" can seem to be at the expense of things like BoFs (as he mentions), lightning talks, hackathons, etc, and when you have so much talent all in one place, it seems a shame to waste opportunities for it to come together productively.
Some of my best conference moments have been sitting around with 10-20 people in hotel lobbies talking or in empty conference rooms coding. The worst have been crammed into a bar and having to shout at strangers. As the author suggests, let the partiers party, but give some space to the squares too ;-)
I like beer (though in moderation, because these days it does not always like me back) and I do not tend to be an introvert at conferences, and I would love to meet each and every one of you over beer, but I socialize by conversing, not by standing around smiling and nodding and asking for things to be repeated because I can't hear a damn thing. I can't sort out conversation at the ambient sound level of many bars. (It may be partly physiological; I have friends who have far more difficulty than I, though their hearing, like mine, is fine to first order.) And most clubs are an order of magnitude louder than a bar.
And so, I concur: All my happiest conference memories are about hotel lobbies. If you want to run a good conference, give those of us who enjoy conversation the option of dropping by a 24-by-7 lobby. (Drupalcon actually tends to do this; they call it the "hacker lounge". Just another thing to like about the Drupal folks.)
And so, I concur: All my happiest conference memories are about hotel lobbies. If you want to run a good conference, give those of us who enjoy conversation the option of dropping by a 24-by-7 lobby. (Drupalcon actually tends to do this; they call it the "hacker lounge". Just another thing to like about the Drupal folks.)
This sounds like Auditory Processing Disorder[1], a very common condition. The problem isn't your hearing, rather it's how your brain processes sounds. One effect it has is dulling your ability to focus in on one particular conversation if there's a lot of background noise.
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auditory_processing_disorder
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auditory_processing_disorder
Yeah, my thinking is that either I have a condition on that spectrum (if so, it doesn't rise to a very serious level; I mix live audio as a hobby and don't have problems with that, and my hearing seems to be generally good)… or in fact I am perfectly neurotypical and it's the design of bars and parties that is broken. ;)
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Afterparties have been great to me. I've made a lot of good connections and had a lot of doors opened for me that couldn't have happened during a lightning talk. Talking over drinks really makes it easier to speak confidently about oneself.
Absolutely yes. I love talking to interesting people over drinks. Love it. However, when they insist on playing music so loud that you can't hear each other, that option goes away. And almost always they insist on playing the latest vapid pop. The play music by 17 year olds for 40 year olds? Why? So we can pretend we're still kids? Fuck that.
Give me quality liquor, music a bulk of the people actually like, played low enough that no one has to yell. Then fill the room with passionate thinkers. Heaven.
Give me quality liquor, music a bulk of the people actually like, played low enough that no one has to yell. Then fill the room with passionate thinkers. Heaven.
play music by 17 year olds for 40 year olds? Why? So we can pretend we're still kids?
Better than playing music from the early to mid 90s... ;)
Better than playing music from the early to mid 90s... ;)
In my experience drinking hasn't been conducive to being a good programming/problem solver. I don't have the mental stamina to finish a program when I'm hungover.
Agreed. I find even a beer or two throws me off. However, when I need to write emails or some more social, less technical thing, a couple beers makes me way more productive. I think because I tend to waffle on verbiage and think things like, "no, that sounds condescending and I don't mean it to be, backspace" I find a little alcohol brings the "fuck it, send" threshold close enough to be productive at something I'm kind of bad at sober.
Such is the wonderment of lowered inhibitions.
"Drinking Alcohol May Significantly Enhance Problem Solving Skills" http://medicaldaily.com/news/20120411/9496/alcohol-solving-s...
"Drinking Alcohol May Significantly Enhance Problem Solving Skills" http://medicaldaily.com/news/20120411/9496/alcohol-solving-s...
Reminds me of this talk about creativity by John Cleese[1]. The tl;dw is creativity is about getting into an open, uninhibited state of mind where new or risky ideas flow freely. Then getting into a closed, more focused state that allows you to implement the idea without getting distracted. Being able to switch between the two modes is key to creative problem solving.
I guess for me, alcohol promotes the open mode, but pretty completely wrecks the closed mode.
[1] https://twitter.com/#!/Renessa47/status/190802692245950464
I guess for me, alcohol promotes the open mode, but pretty completely wrecks the closed mode.
[1] https://twitter.com/#!/Renessa47/status/190802692245950464
Hungover yeah not good, but I find a beer or two can give you a different perspective on something that's exactly what you need sometimes. Like how you solve problems in your sleep or in the shower, sometimes just saying 'screw it' and doing something sloppily gives you the clarity needed for the real answer
For tricky problems I liked to take a 10 min walk to the pub a pint and a couple of games of pinball (thinking over the problem whilst doing so)
Ballmer's peak has nothing to do with "the morning after." For me it's after 2-3 drinks but after 4 it's probably gone.
FWIW, we had tremendous success at Madison Ruby: rooftop party with live DJs (two of which were attendees, the other was Dosh). Alcohol available, good music, and the open air made it possible to converse.
LobbyCon is the best action for data ...it's all about the hallways. I will say that lots of folks know each other online so meeting face 2 face is a fun time to bond and party rather than info gathering which conferences are not good for anyway (due to the real time web)
-john furrier palo alto
-john furrier palo alto
As far as I can tell, there are no more of these kinds of parties at conferences than there were 10 years ago.
Excluding academic conferences, I don't think programmers drink and more or less than other professionals at conferences.
Excluding academic conferences, I don't think programmers drink and more or less than other professionals at conferences.
I agree. In fact, I would argue that open source developer conferences actually have fewer drunken revels than more conventional industry trade shows (which, in my experience, also have more issues with exclusion and sexual harassment). However, that doesn't mean that we can't still try for a better balance.
I'm not sure why that's relevant. Should we not try to improve things just because it's 'always been like this'?
It is relevant because of the assertion that it's partially due to 25 year olds and brogrammers. Neither are true.
Also it has not been established that changing things would be an improvement.
Also it has not been established that changing things would be an improvement.
Combine the best of both worlds and host a giant rave with solder stations and lots of whiteboards.
Use an ambisonic rig and have tunable quiet spots for all the half-deaf rocket scientists.
Use an ambisonic rig and have tunable quiet spots for all the half-deaf rocket scientists.
I burned myself soldering drunkenly at DEFCON. Not recommended.
Could have an entire floor of danger that requires a breath test on the door to check that you are below, say, 35 µg of alcohol. Make the conference last a fortnight and there is then plenty of time for people to sober up for accessing certain areas containing heavy engineering.
I would pay lots of money to see this.
Would you pay lots of money to help set it up in the first place?
I'd certainly consider it.
I wonder if something like this could be organised through github and kickstarter as a sort of open source crowd funded festival for geeks.
Could even be completely ambitious and plan to have it internationalised from the start with video conferencing devices of various scales and other assorted comms stuff connecting different venues around the world, then it's a lot easier to raise money globally.
Could even be completely ambitious and plan to have it internationalised from the start with video conferencing devices of various scales and other assorted comms stuff connecting different venues around the world, then it's a lot easier to raise money globally.
And then sync events by projecting live streaming video of the different locations that are running the event? That would be cool!
I'm too busy to actually organise anything, but should you (or anyone else) do anything with this, I'd love to hear about it, so feel free to email me (email in my profile).
I'm too busy to actually organise anything, but should you (or anyone else) do anything with this, I'd love to hear about it, so feel free to email me (email in my profile).
> Excluding academic conferences, I don't think programmers drink and more or less than other professionals at conferences.
As an academic, I'm curious in which direction you're implying academic conferences deviate. :)
As an academic, I'm curious in which direction you're implying academic conferences deviate. :)
I have no idea, thats why I exclude them. I don't have experience in that circle or knowledge of friends experience that I can use as a basis to speculate.
yes and no. I attended OSCON[1] in 2005 and 2006 and, like the linked post, I remember a strong focus on BOF sessions and tech-related activities after the main day sessions were over, with a small amount of partying towards the end. Product specific conferences (Oracle, MS etc.) were always more party and less talk, but the audience was very different - I suspect that was the status quo wherever salespeople and corporate folks outnumbered technical people by any margin.
It may be a side effect of the increased popularity of the dev/OSS/startup industry as a whole over the last few years, but I've certainly seen (purely anecdotal, I know) a decrease in productivity and an increase in hangovers & 'remember when bob fell in the fountain' stories the next day...
[1] european. not US.
It may be a side effect of the increased popularity of the dev/OSS/startup industry as a whole over the last few years, but I've certainly seen (purely anecdotal, I know) a decrease in productivity and an increase in hangovers & 'remember when bob fell in the fountain' stories the next day...
[1] european. not US.
I think the award for that is probably jointly shared by doctors, journalists and sci-fi authors, with an honorary mention for stock market traders.
[edit] The team representing the traders were in an early lead, but they all got disqualified after testing positive for cocaine. The doctors and authors should have been disqualified as well, but the doctors all said they had a sore leg and none of the substances in the authors' blood showed up on any known test. As far as anybody can tell, the journalists were just drunk, but no-one really knows what happened to them in the end, although there are some unconfirmed reports of one being eaten by a leopard.
[edit] The team representing the traders were in an early lead, but they all got disqualified after testing positive for cocaine. The doctors and authors should have been disqualified as well, but the doctors all said they had a sore leg and none of the substances in the authors' blood showed up on any known test. As far as anybody can tell, the journalists were just drunk, but no-one really knows what happened to them in the end, although there are some unconfirmed reports of one being eaten by a leopard.
It sounds like the biggest complaint here is more or less sound volume (i.e., loud ass music --> I can't talk to people). I share this sentiment with bars. Quiet to moderate volume bars > loud "hip" bars any day.
I don't usually have a very good time at the conference after parties but there have been a few exceptions.
The best time I've ever had at a conference was at TechEd New Orleans. It was fantastic just to buddy around with the same people making the programming languages and tools that I love. I made a ton of connections and some conversations even turned into opportunities down the road.
I'm an introvert by nature, but exhausting as it is, it really pays to put yourself out there.
Another example was at PDC. They had a big party with arcade games and VR simulators. Sure, there was beer, but tons of folks were throwing down on some Street Fighter as well. If you don't like partying, and you don't like video games are there any social activities that you enjoy at all?
The best time I've ever had at a conference was at TechEd New Orleans. It was fantastic just to buddy around with the same people making the programming languages and tools that I love. I made a ton of connections and some conversations even turned into opportunities down the road.
I'm an introvert by nature, but exhausting as it is, it really pays to put yourself out there.
Another example was at PDC. They had a big party with arcade games and VR simulators. Sure, there was beer, but tons of folks were throwing down on some Street Fighter as well. If you don't like partying, and you don't like video games are there any social activities that you enjoy at all?
I'm one of those programmers who likes drinking and yelling about JavaScript in noisy bars after a conference. I'm friends with both types of programmers as well, and enjoy sober conversations about JavaScript (again, usually yelling).
There's opportunity here to start another movement at conferences like how the unconf stuff popped up at the larger ones. Why not start a 'ModerateConf' unafterparty at these things? Have hacking spaces, name tags, light music and a small bar. All the 'brogrammers' (how I hate that term!) will go to the other places and do their shots of absinthe.
If you don't like 'parties' that's fine, but there's nothing fundamentally wrong with them.
There's opportunity here to start another movement at conferences like how the unconf stuff popped up at the larger ones. Why not start a 'ModerateConf' unafterparty at these things? Have hacking spaces, name tags, light music and a small bar. All the 'brogrammers' (how I hate that term!) will go to the other places and do their shots of absinthe.
If you don't like 'parties' that's fine, but there's nothing fundamentally wrong with them.
"The Brogrammers are desperately trying to prove to themselves that, while they may be programmers, they're not geeks."
Nope, we're trying to show people that being geek, doesn't mean being socially awkward.
Nope, we're trying to show people that being geek, doesn't mean being socially awkward.
If you need four shots of Jaeger to start a conversation, that's the definition of socially awkward.
>we're
So you're classifying yourself as a Brogrammer, or you're saying that people going to parties aren't Brogrammers--they're just socially aware geeks?
Geeks are awkward b/c by definition we are obsessive, and our passions tend towards topics that non-geeks don't understand.
It can be tough for some people, but once you're aware that you can't speek geek to a non-geek, the social awkwardness goes away (or at least fades a little).
So you're classifying yourself as a Brogrammer, or you're saying that people going to parties aren't Brogrammers--they're just socially aware geeks?
Geeks are awkward b/c by definition we are obsessive, and our passions tend towards topics that non-geeks don't understand.
It can be tough for some people, but once you're aware that you can't speek geek to a non-geek, the social awkwardness goes away (or at least fades a little).
Met any members of CAMRA have we :-) CAMRA is the Campaign for Real ale aka beer geeks
"...while they may be programmers, they're not geeks. Drunken parties are part of this self-deception."
So, all programmers are geeks?
So, all programmers are geeks?
I would say very nearly all programmers fit the popular definition of geek just by being programmers. If someone you don't know finds out you're a programmer, they're probably going to classify you as a geek. I think our culture has moved beyond that being automatically negative, however.
If you find yourself in a peer group who still stigmatizes being a geek, just wait until you're a few years older and money becomes the primary status symbol.
"Brogrammers" often try very hard to distance themselves from "geeks" by adopting non-geek hobbies, but still tend to approach them with geek-like obsession. Someone who obsesses over cars, or sports, or beer is still a geek--just a different kind of geek.
I'm sure you've met plenty of fantasy football geeks, car geeks, and beer geeks who would emphatically reject the geek label.
If you find yourself in a peer group who still stigmatizes being a geek, just wait until you're a few years older and money becomes the primary status symbol.
"Brogrammers" often try very hard to distance themselves from "geeks" by adopting non-geek hobbies, but still tend to approach them with geek-like obsession. Someone who obsesses over cars, or sports, or beer is still a geek--just a different kind of geek.
I'm sure you've met plenty of fantasy football geeks, car geeks, and beer geeks who would emphatically reject the geek label.
That's a whole 'nother long discussion. One kerfuffle at a time please!
I don't get it, I went to every Microsoft Professional Developers Conference from 1995-2005 and I never saw any partying (well, there was that one visit to Universal Studios that was pretty cool). I missed out!
Almost 10 years ago work sent me to TechEd 2002 EMEA in Barcelona. I remember a party with Cirque du soleil (or a similar) troupe, and a Ballmer-like break dancer. Everyone was driven over to the event at one of the former Olympic venues. There was booze and loud music but it a fairly good event even if you weren't drinking.
Can anyone explain what BOF stands for?
Birds of a Feather. They're informal, ad-hoc meetings centered on a specific topic. Like if the topic of "unit testing" (for example) comes up a lot, someone might propose a BOF on unit testing and anyone interested can show up and ask questions, run a demo, etc.
You'll also see them called "open spaces".
PyCon has some great ones although they were a little disappointing this year. A combination of the hotel layout and placement of the openspace proposal (sign up) board was not great.
PyCon has some great ones although they were a little disappointing this year. A combination of the hotel layout and placement of the openspace proposal (sign up) board was not great.
I agree. The BOFs were often VERY hard to find, plus they were what felt like a 10-minute walk from the hotel lobby. I tried locating a few that I was interested in but didn't have much success.
PyCon 2012 was my first geek conference and left me a little disappointed.
PyCon 2012 was my first geek conference and left me a little disappointed.
Please post more about why you feel this way. I know that Jesse Noller and some of the other organisers would be interested in feedback from first time attendees.
[deleted]
Binge drinking is an unhealthy pattern of behavior. It causes damage to those who partake.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binge_drinking#Cause
"I forget my problems (41%)"
41% only tracks the number of people who admit this to themselves. If there is a systematic problem of alcohol abuse and uncontrolled excess, we have to ask what is so horrible in the life of a programmer that so many of them would prefer to forget themselves entirely?
Of course I don't really know if there is a legitimate binge drinking problem, or if people are just loud and drunk. I'm not usually at these conferences.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binge_drinking#Cause
"I forget my problems (41%)"
41% only tracks the number of people who admit this to themselves. If there is a systematic problem of alcohol abuse and uncontrolled excess, we have to ask what is so horrible in the life of a programmer that so many of them would prefer to forget themselves entirely?
Of course I don't really know if there is a legitimate binge drinking problem, or if people are just loud and drunk. I'm not usually at these conferences.
It is also fun sometimes. And it happens in every business, not just tech
"Don't invite Yehuda Katz to your user group! He takes everything too seriously!"
"Don't have parties at your confs! You're not being serious enough!"
I sometimes skip the parties at confs, but I sometimes go, and I've been to a few which were great. I think attempting to come up with some kind of Canonical Seriousness Level for all developer gatherings is doomed anyway. This is a matter of personal taste.
All you can do as a conf organizer is decide what kind of conf you want to run, and make sure people know before they buy their tickets. Or, if you're running a very large conf, set up loud options and quiet options.
There's also a flaw in his argument here, one which I hope is not significant:
"It's easier for overworked conference organizers to arrange a party than other evening activities which actually require planning."
On its own, this sentence is so dementedly off-target that it initially made me wonder what other wildly inaccurate assumptions he might be making. However, later in the blog post, it turns out that he might mean it's easier because all you do is hand it off to some company who wants to organize the party for you.
Of course, not doing anything is easier than doing something. Can't argue with that. However, if he really thinks parties require no planning, he either has no experience throwing parties, or the parties he throws are not good.
"Don't have parties at your confs! You're not being serious enough!"
I sometimes skip the parties at confs, but I sometimes go, and I've been to a few which were great. I think attempting to come up with some kind of Canonical Seriousness Level for all developer gatherings is doomed anyway. This is a matter of personal taste.
All you can do as a conf organizer is decide what kind of conf you want to run, and make sure people know before they buy their tickets. Or, if you're running a very large conf, set up loud options and quiet options.
There's also a flaw in his argument here, one which I hope is not significant:
"It's easier for overworked conference organizers to arrange a party than other evening activities which actually require planning."
On its own, this sentence is so dementedly off-target that it initially made me wonder what other wildly inaccurate assumptions he might be making. However, later in the blog post, it turns out that he might mean it's easier because all you do is hand it off to some company who wants to organize the party for you.
Of course, not doing anything is easier than doing something. Can't argue with that. However, if he really thinks parties require no planning, he either has no experience throwing parties, or the parties he throws are not good.
Giles,
I've planned quite a few parties. In fact, I used to plan them professionally for the San Francisco Opera, and that's about as high-maintenance as a party gets. I've also helped organize a dozen open source conferences.
My point is not that planning parties is easy, but rather that planning a boring party (i.e. hotel ballroom or bar, bad DJ and some free booze) is easier than planning alternative activities. Scheduling BOFs, game nights, or the kind of party at LinuxCon are all significantly more work than that.
And, in my experience, the majority of parties at confs are, in fact, bad parties which require little planning.
I've planned quite a few parties. In fact, I used to plan them professionally for the San Francisco Opera, and that's about as high-maintenance as a party gets. I've also helped organize a dozen open source conferences.
My point is not that planning parties is easy, but rather that planning a boring party (i.e. hotel ballroom or bar, bad DJ and some free booze) is easier than planning alternative activities. Scheduling BOFs, game nights, or the kind of party at LinuxCon are all significantly more work than that.
And, in my experience, the majority of parties at confs are, in fact, bad parties which require little planning.
Frankly, the most of the "parties" at most conferences _aren't_ good. Mostly, "party" just means an open bar and, if you're lucky, some light nibbles, either in the exhibit hall of the conference center or in a tacky hotel restaurant.
I propose the Bowkett Constant, the ideal canonical seriousness level for all developer gatherings.
[deleted]
It's a seemingly legitimate way for companies to give their employees a perk. Sure, some people are actually there to learn things for work purposes, but the vast majority are simply happy to have a few days off work to relax (and maybe learn a bit) on the company dime. It's America's (crappy) solution to our relatively low number of vacation days.
It shouldn't be any surprise that people drink and party a lot at conferences. People tend to do those things while on vacation.