The Go-Nowhere Generation(nytimes.com)
nytimes.com
The Go-Nowhere Generation
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/11/opinion/sunday/the-go-nowhere-generation.html?hp
25 comments
"Because in addition to that $200 for the bus ticket, they'd also need money on hand for first month's rent, security deposit, probably some new furniture and houseware, etc. plus enough saved up to be able to commit to the lease without knowing how much income they'll have... if/once they do manage to line up a job."
These concerns are not unique to the current generation. Pulling up stumps and moving in search of work and prosperity has ALWAYS been risky (hell, I've done it three times so far, once while massively in debt). It's just that now there's a very strong trend towards risk aversion, which makes it that much harder for the entrepreneurial spirit to flourish.
In fact, it's even worse than that; With the internet, it's easier than ever before to find a job before you even decide whether to move or not. And yet more and more people remain complacent in a 13% jobless rate area when 3.3% is available for the taking.
Of course, the good news is that for those who ARE adventurous, there's never been a better time to move and take advantage of the opportunities created by the fear of the majority.
These concerns are not unique to the current generation. Pulling up stumps and moving in search of work and prosperity has ALWAYS been risky (hell, I've done it three times so far, once while massively in debt). It's just that now there's a very strong trend towards risk aversion, which makes it that much harder for the entrepreneurial spirit to flourish.
In fact, it's even worse than that; With the internet, it's easier than ever before to find a job before you even decide whether to move or not. And yet more and more people remain complacent in a 13% jobless rate area when 3.3% is available for the taking.
Of course, the good news is that for those who ARE adventurous, there's never been a better time to move and take advantage of the opportunities created by the fear of the majority.
I like this analysis better! For bonus points, why would this generation be any more risk averse than previous generations?
Managing risk is a learned behaviour, and we've kinda got our recession on... may be they were paying attention. Heck, I couldn't be prouder of these cottonwool wrapped kids. Let's give em a low carb imitation lollypop.
Managing risk is a learned behaviour, and we've kinda got our recession on... may be they were paying attention. Heck, I couldn't be prouder of these cottonwool wrapped kids. Let's give em a low carb imitation lollypop.
North Dakota may have problems housing the itinerant Nevadans once they arrive, too.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/21/us/21ndakota.html
It seems likely that people will move / have moved interstate to take advantage of the job availabilities in ND, but it's not clear from the article why we'd expect unskilled youth to take on this mild inconvenience, as opposed to any other demographic group.
Census data does indicate that interstate migration rates are falling generally (albeit gradually), but isn't that to be expected? I hear this new fangled "Internet" means that the telecommuting cybernautic generation can work from their oxygen-controlled humidicribs, thus saving the burden of investment in loathsome, expensive transport infrastructure.
It seems likely that people will move / have moved interstate to take advantage of the job availabilities in ND, but it's not clear from the article why we'd expect unskilled youth to take on this mild inconvenience, as opposed to any other demographic group.
Census data does indicate that interstate migration rates are falling generally (albeit gradually), but isn't that to be expected? I hear this new fangled "Internet" means that the telecommuting cybernautic generation can work from their oxygen-controlled humidicribs, thus saving the burden of investment in loathsome, expensive transport infrastructure.
What an out of touch dude. I'm not sure he gets that the wealth is being created by our minds instead of our backs. I wonder if he could code anything he used to send or publish that article - or even if he understands even the absolute basics of how that series of tubes works. I doubt it.
If we're renaming generations, perhaps we can rename his the "You've Lead America Off a Cliff And Stiffed Your Children With The Bill." Generation.
Not catchy enough? Here are a few more to try on:
The "You Voted For SOPA" Generation
The "Civil Liberties? Overrated." Generation
The "Hey, I Don't Have To Go Fight That War" Generation
The "I Can't Email, But I Can Reform Washington" Generation
If we're renaming generations, perhaps we can rename his the "You've Lead America Off a Cliff And Stiffed Your Children With The Bill." Generation.
Not catchy enough? Here are a few more to try on:
The "You Voted For SOPA" Generation
The "Civil Liberties? Overrated." Generation
The "Hey, I Don't Have To Go Fight That War" Generation
The "I Can't Email, But I Can Reform Washington" Generation
I think it is important to note that author is speaking in broad, generational terms. The HN community is definitely not representative of Gen-Y. I know many 20 and 30-somethings to whom the internet is a series of tubes.
Though the author might have had an old-fogey tone he does bring some interesting points to light:
1. why do young people in auto-centric cities hold off on getting a car? 2. why are young people not migrating to places where the jobs are? 3. there seem to be a correlation between recession-era kids and entrepreneurism.
I think these are very real issues that merit discussion.
Though the author might have had an old-fogey tone he does bring some interesting points to light:
1. why do young people in auto-centric cities hold off on getting a car? 2. why are young people not migrating to places where the jobs are? 3. there seem to be a correlation between recession-era kids and entrepreneurism.
I think these are very real issues that merit discussion.
On #1, I'd guess one factor is that the car isn't as big a part of teenage social life as it used to be. In much of the U.S., cars were central to high-school social life, with who had cars counting for a considerable amount of social status, and a lot of hanging-out activities (malls, movie theaters, arcades, etc.) requiring cars to get to. It's possible that also had advantageous effects for being able to get to jobs, but teenagers weren't mainly getting their licenses for those reasons. My read is that hanging out at the mall doesn't have the same role in high-school social life of the 2010s as it did in the 1980s.
1 Maybe they don't want to submit to draconian licensing restrictions which have trended politically toward the ridiculous and punitive under the guise of increasing road safety all whilst seniors losing their sense of sight continue to get involved in serious accidents on a regular basis? Not to mention the environmental / financial issues implicit in car ownership.
2. Maybe they don't see a need to migrate to places where physical presence is necessary to undertake these jobs when location independent work is a rising tide? (Thus further negating the entire point of having a car and / or submitting to the prior mentioned procedures from point 1?)
Speaking for myself those are the reasons I don't submit to the whole car culture thing and the reason I don't choose a location to live based on employment / economic factors, but then I'm 32, so I acknowledge I'm not generation Y. It stands to reason though that there are some people in that generation proceeding on the same basis as I am.
Boomers criticising any generation for not wanting to play the game strikes me as utterly hilarious. Especially from a guy with a book titled "Why you need and love the rat race". It's self parody at its finest.
2. Maybe they don't see a need to migrate to places where physical presence is necessary to undertake these jobs when location independent work is a rising tide? (Thus further negating the entire point of having a car and / or submitting to the prior mentioned procedures from point 1?)
Speaking for myself those are the reasons I don't submit to the whole car culture thing and the reason I don't choose a location to live based on employment / economic factors, but then I'm 32, so I acknowledge I'm not generation Y. It stands to reason though that there are some people in that generation proceeding on the same basis as I am.
Boomers criticising any generation for not wanting to play the game strikes me as utterly hilarious. Especially from a guy with a book titled "Why you need and love the rat race". It's self parody at its finest.
“I spoke with a kid from Columbus, Ohio, who dreamed of being a high school teacher. When he found out he’d have to move to Arizona or the Sunbelt, he took a job in a Columbus tire factory.”
Perhaps this is also why working at Foxconn - migrating to a different city just to work long hours and live in dorms, seem so alien and cruel to Americans.
Perhaps this is also why working at Foxconn - migrating to a different city just to work long hours and live in dorms, seem so alien and cruel to Americans.
"And in case you're not convinced, allow me to submit some personal anecdotal evidence."
Totally agreed. I think, however, the author mentions an interesting point, but he fail to deliver it correctly. The documentary "High Anxieties - The Mathematics of Chaos", by David Malone makes a very historical analysis of the point the author is trying to make.
The "Good Luck Paying Off that Student Loan" Generation
"Good Luck Paying Off That Hospital Bill" Generation
Good luck paying off that mortgage generation
I feel this article is flawed with the author only acknowledging one set of possible goals/ values for a person to strive for in life. To myself and many others, having a (government reported) job and a car are not the pot at the end of the rainbow.
Instead, we have been raised in a world decrying the systematic consumption of the environment which, when coupled with highly volatile gas prices, makes using car alternatives an attractive option.
Further, many of us have complex outlooks that assigns value to friends, family, and free time that we may have to surrender if we accepted a cushy North Dakota job (and let's face it, you are reaching when North Dakota is your poster child for opportunity). Not everything is about money.
Sadly, each year I get older, the more I internalize that somebody will always feel the need to write articles bashing the younger generation. All I hope is that I never reach the point where I am the one doing the writing.
Instead, we have been raised in a world decrying the systematic consumption of the environment which, when coupled with highly volatile gas prices, makes using car alternatives an attractive option.
Further, many of us have complex outlooks that assigns value to friends, family, and free time that we may have to surrender if we accepted a cushy North Dakota job (and let's face it, you are reaching when North Dakota is your poster child for opportunity). Not everything is about money.
Sadly, each year I get older, the more I internalize that somebody will always feel the need to write articles bashing the younger generation. All I hope is that I never reach the point where I am the one doing the writing.
Strongly agree, "The Well Adjusted Generation That Realised There Was Alot More To Life Than Money" isn't such a good op-ed title. We may get a generation of happy, socially aware people who make fantastic parents, oh noes!
Based on your comment I assume that you have the means of supporting your "More to life than work" lifestyle? That you're not on the government dole or living in your parent's basement? If my assumptions are correct, then I commend you and I'm envious of your ability to strike a balance.
I don't believe for one second though that the reason Gen Y suffers from a high jobless rate is because they share the same values you do. I believe they're lazy, spoiled and entitled. I have several cousins who are between 16 and 18 and have no jobs, nor have they ever. And it's not because there's no jobs to be had, it's because they don't want to work as a grocery story stock person or a cashier. Those jobs are below their upper middle class upbringing.
And because of Facebook, they don't need jobs. They can hang out with their friends all day online for free. Their parents provide them with food, shelter and clothing - so what more could they ask for? I don't believe this is sustainable though. Our society works because people produce things. We've seen what happens when we trend towards a service based economy rather than a manufacturing based economy. What happens when we transition to a sit on our ass and surf the internet economy?
I don't believe for one second though that the reason Gen Y suffers from a high jobless rate is because they share the same values you do. I believe they're lazy, spoiled and entitled. I have several cousins who are between 16 and 18 and have no jobs, nor have they ever. And it's not because there's no jobs to be had, it's because they don't want to work as a grocery story stock person or a cashier. Those jobs are below their upper middle class upbringing.
And because of Facebook, they don't need jobs. They can hang out with their friends all day online for free. Their parents provide them with food, shelter and clothing - so what more could they ask for? I don't believe this is sustainable though. Our society works because people produce things. We've seen what happens when we trend towards a service based economy rather than a manufacturing based economy. What happens when we transition to a sit on our ass and surf the internet economy?
I like how he goes after Facebook, a company run by a 27 year old Millenial with $3.7B in revenue last year ($1.3B more than the New York Times)
Yea, but does Mark Zuckerberg go anywhere? If not he just proves that author's point! </sarcasm>
This is silly. The vast majority of yesteryear's kids didn't want to go anywhere, either. The Lost Generation were the youth of WW1. The Greatest Generation were the youth of WW2. More young people in the 60's went to Vietnam than have ever joined the Peace Corps. This entire article is essentially whining that we no longer have a draft.
And, ironically, the reason the US no longer has a draft is that his generation went nuts over Vietnam. Everybody knows that it is political suicide to institute a draft.
"Good Luck Finding A Cheap Place To Live" Generation
"I'm Running A Company From My Bedroom" Generation
"I Can Do Basic Cost/Benefit Analysis" Generation
"Have Fun Paying Off that Student Loan" Generation
But in all seriousness, this article is ridiculously pretentious and completely out of touch with reality. I know lots of people, including myself, who want to go travelling. Most of them can't afford it. As many others have pointed out, most of them can't afford it because YOUR generation threw the economic in the toilet.
But in all seriousness, this article is ridiculously pretentious and completely out of touch with reality. I know lots of people, including myself, who want to go travelling. Most of them can't afford it. As many others have pointed out, most of them can't afford it because YOUR generation threw the economic in the toilet.
One thing that really bothered me about Americans when I lived there was how often they just packed up everything and moved into a new house. Not for any good reason, mind you, but just for 'the experience of having a new place to live in'. Coming from a country where there was nothing beyond the city limits for 4 days worth of driving, it was bizarre to me that American folks I knew found themselves restless after 6 months in the new place. I suppose the urban environments of America sort of promote this, though - there is very little you can do in most of America without having transportation, and the 'neighborhood feeling' you get in Europe that makes it so 'nice to walk around' just doesn't exist in the majority of American cities, with their sprawl. Sure, there are exceptions - New York (people rave about New York, but really its just a 'kind of Europe' sort of place), San Francisco, and so on, but given your average American city, its sort of no surprise that people don't really feel 'at home' most of the time.
Is it car culture that drives Americans to move around so much? I tend to think so.
Is it car culture that drives Americans to move around so much? I tend to think so.
I know people that move around from apartment to apartment, but I've never known of anyone that 'house hopped' like that unless they were flipping the houses for a profit. My parents have lived in 3 houses over the course of my lifetime. The one that I mostly grew up in they owned for over 20 years, and I believe that the move into that house was due to the family expanding.
Love to read an article on this topic written from the viewpoint of a young person instead of a 50 year-old who was raised in a period of enormous economic growth. Perhaps some young people are not "slouches", but are actually logical and evaluate pros/cons and decide to put down roots?
And maybe 50-somethings find it easy to forget what little shits they were a few decades ago. Time to sit down for a frank discussion with grandma and grandpa.
They don't have to go somewhere else, tons of work can be done from at home. Hell I'm running a company and working for another with only my mobile phone for internet access. I could go anywhere I wanted but I've a damp corner that I've grown accustomed to.
We're the minority, not the majority. Most people online can't even spell or use grammar correctly. I hardly think any of those people would have the creativity or the gumption to start a business.
According to this article you're doing it wrong and should move to North Dakota.
Right, because North Dakota is a far more enjoyable place for a teenage kid to live than the state that's home to Las Vegas (;
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"“More time on Facebook probably means less time on the road,” he said. That may mean safer roads, but it also means a bumpier, less vibrant economy."
So... the economy is being held back by the lack of teens cruising the main drag?
So... the economy is being held back by the lack of teens cruising the main drag?
While the article is a bit lacking, in my own observations traveling extensively around the globe, I encountered very few Americans, considering their population numbers, wealth, etc. I realise the article is more about interstate travel for work, etc, however it always just really surprised me about how few young American kids were out there bumming it around the world with backpacks on. I met more Israelis out there than North Americans, and they have a population of what, 6 million? Or Australians? Those guys are everywhere.
Well, you can move and shake from the comfort of your home - and that doesn't apply only to virtual/intellectual products. You can easily set up some kind of production in China, with worldwide shipping without even getting out of your house - I find that extremely fascinating.
And young people move quite a lot - in fact, more than the previous generations did. Just not from Nevada to North Dakota - heck, the city of Las Vegas has more people than the whole of North Dakota :-D
And young people move quite a lot - in fact, more than the previous generations did. Just not from Nevada to North Dakota - heck, the city of Las Vegas has more people than the whole of North Dakota :-D
Clincher that was redacted by the editor:
"Get off my lawn!"
"Get off my lawn!"
As an engineer in Europe I'm working less and less outside. Today we can control an industrial plant from our main company using Internet.
We predict problems before they ever arrive using telemetry monitoring and we could fix 95% of the problems with keystrokes.
We predict problems before they ever arrive using telemetry monitoring and we could fix 95% of the problems with keystrokes.
"Perhaps more worrisome, kids who grow up during tough economic times also tend to believe that luck plays a bigger role in their success, which breeds complacency."
This sentence caught my eye. Could the economic climate be reflected in a person's locus of control?
http://wilderdom.com/psychology/loc/LocusOfControlWhatIs.htm...
I agree with many views expressed here by the way and thought the article a tad patronising.
This sentence caught my eye. Could the economic climate be reflected in a person's locus of control?
http://wilderdom.com/psychology/loc/LocusOfControlWhatIs.htm...
I agree with many views expressed here by the way and thought the article a tad patronising.
I've been noticing this on sites like Reddit more and more these days. There is a growing sense that wealth is only generated by luck or corruption. It's extremely dangerous thinking.
It's also not dead wrong which is terribly unfortunate. (this is not to imply that it is dead right either, but ammunition for cynicism definitely isn't good in this instance)
I don't know that it's necessary to leave these days depending on your industry. Anyone just about anywhere can launch a global business on the Internet, I have a 2nd job that I work 100% telecommute, so I can work on vacation if I wanted. With most countries outside of Asia working in more service oriented industries, the only real migration would be those who wish to follow manufacturing.
I'm not sure how every aging generation is suddenly surprised that a previous generation is different in some way.
It seems ridiculous to assume that with all the major changes that have happened over the last 20 years that people wouldn't have different behaviors.
It seems ridiculous to assume that with all the major changes that have happened over the last 20 years that people wouldn't have different behaviors.
the author isn't aware that social revolutions are caused by hunger.
"The Rape and Pillage the Planet For Every Last Drop of Oil" generation
"The Gained the World, Lost their Soul" generation
"The Numbers and Dollars, not Humans and Values" generation
we are "Wish for the best, prepare for the worst" generation
"The Rape and Pillage the Planet For Every Last Drop of Oil" generation
"The Gained the World, Lost their Soul" generation
"The Numbers and Dollars, not Humans and Values" generation
we are "Wish for the best, prepare for the worst" generation
the "wearing pyjama pants to go to school" generation.
the "my pants are so low,I look like I shit my pants" generation.
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I find that a lot of the comments here are missing the point. Sure, Baby Boomers have no moral high ground when it comes to generational criticism. Who cares? I think the OP makes some really interesting points and, for my part, I don't think he's trying to moralize or call people lazy. "Go-nowhere" sounds pejorative, but the fact is that people have less of a use for transportation now, and I think there's an interesting insight there.
As a country, we deeply suck at moving humans around. Europe has actually fast trains and they're actually reasonably priced, unlike Amtrak. If you want great service in Europe, you take Virgin; if you want cheap flights, you take RyanAir. We lose by getting RyanAir service for Virgin/BA prices. We're great at shipping bits, U.S. freight rail is world-class, and we can get almost any fruit in any season, but when it comes to passenger transportation, we essentially stagnated in 1949. Air travel is still expensive and far more unpleasant than it ever was, passenger rail is at the same speed it had in the 1920s, and most of us still rely on the car for commuting. If you want to live in a place where you can actually walk or bike to a city, you'll pay absurdly high prices to live there. This mediocrity in transportation is a deep national morale problem that is exacerbated by the current economic climate (i.e. many people having no fucking money). A result of this is that the world is becoming larger. Much larger.
Moreover, what's left of the job market fills through social connections. "Front door" approaches are officially dead. It's possible to make "weak ties" and acquaintanceships online, and that kind of "networking" is often enough (strength of weak ties) but if you fall into a bad spell (or, say, are female and take a few years off from work to raise children) and need someone to take a chance on you, you're going to want strong ties. With wealth disparities widening and talent geography becoming more unfavorable, people are less inclined to believe they'll easily make strong ties after college; it rarely happens. So people are averse to moving without a strong reason to do so.
Then there is the difference in job markets between continuous (efficient, low-latency) and discrete (illiquid, high-latency) ones. For high-talent jobs and candidates, there are 3 places where the markets are continuous: New York, Silicon Valley, and Boston. That's not to say there aren't great jobs (and great people to hire) in places like Portland or Minneapolis. There are, but there isn't the massive number that makes a market continuous. A lot of talent is coalescing in these 3 areas because living in one of them means that changing jobs doesn't mean that one is likely to be changing cities. What that means is that people who are willing to move for economic reasons, by and large, have ended up in one of those three places (and will stay there).
As a country, we deeply suck at moving humans around. Europe has actually fast trains and they're actually reasonably priced, unlike Amtrak. If you want great service in Europe, you take Virgin; if you want cheap flights, you take RyanAir. We lose by getting RyanAir service for Virgin/BA prices. We're great at shipping bits, U.S. freight rail is world-class, and we can get almost any fruit in any season, but when it comes to passenger transportation, we essentially stagnated in 1949. Air travel is still expensive and far more unpleasant than it ever was, passenger rail is at the same speed it had in the 1920s, and most of us still rely on the car for commuting. If you want to live in a place where you can actually walk or bike to a city, you'll pay absurdly high prices to live there. This mediocrity in transportation is a deep national morale problem that is exacerbated by the current economic climate (i.e. many people having no fucking money). A result of this is that the world is becoming larger. Much larger.
Moreover, what's left of the job market fills through social connections. "Front door" approaches are officially dead. It's possible to make "weak ties" and acquaintanceships online, and that kind of "networking" is often enough (strength of weak ties) but if you fall into a bad spell (or, say, are female and take a few years off from work to raise children) and need someone to take a chance on you, you're going to want strong ties. With wealth disparities widening and talent geography becoming more unfavorable, people are less inclined to believe they'll easily make strong ties after college; it rarely happens. So people are averse to moving without a strong reason to do so.
Then there is the difference in job markets between continuous (efficient, low-latency) and discrete (illiquid, high-latency) ones. For high-talent jobs and candidates, there are 3 places where the markets are continuous: New York, Silicon Valley, and Boston. That's not to say there aren't great jobs (and great people to hire) in places like Portland or Minneapolis. There are, but there isn't the massive number that makes a market continuous. A lot of talent is coalescing in these 3 areas because living in one of them means that changing jobs doesn't mean that one is likely to be changing cities. What that means is that people who are willing to move for economic reasons, by and large, have ended up in one of those three places (and will stay there).
Its the Ferris Bueller Generation.
I couldn't disagree more. How many people are there making Apple and Android apps now? How about the "Connected Generation"
This generational griping ignores the difficulty the current generation of young people face. The country they inherited is not the bountiful one the authors' generation did. I say this as a recently-young person who has moved across the country.
> I say this as a recently-young person who has
> moved across the country.
"For about $200, young Nevadans who face a statewide 13 percent jobless rate can hop a Greyhound bus to North Dakota, where they’ll find a welcome sign and a 3.3 percent rate. Why are young people not crossing borders?"
This is so stupid. Read any story about the ND oil field boom and all they can talk about is these little towns that have quintupled in size, where ND license plates are outnumbered on the streets 25:1.
This is so stupid. Read any story about the ND oil field boom and all they can talk about is these little towns that have quintupled in size, where ND license plates are outnumbered on the streets 25:1.
another flawed article..
Can we suggest that NYTIMES seek better article submissions? Maybe some HN'er?
Can we suggest that NYTIMES seek better article submissions? Maybe some HN'er?
Because in addition to that $200 for the bus ticket, they'd also need money on hand for first month's rent, security deposit, probably some new furniture and houseware, etc. plus enough saved up to be able to commit to the lease without knowing how much income they'll have... if/once they do manage to line up a job.
it takes fewer weeks of work income to buy a car today than in the early 1980s, and inflation-adjusted gasoline prices didn’t get out of line until a few years ago.
"Fewer weeks of work income" only helps if you have work income.
Maybe the authors have gone too long without wondering where next month's rent is going to come from?