Awful Recruiters(awfulrecruiters.com)
awfulrecruiters.com
Awful Recruiters
http://awfulrecruiters.com/
34 comments
> ... when someone called because they wanted to get me a job
She overestimates the bad recruiters. Recruiters have been known to advertise non-existent positions so they can build up their folios. They have been known to alter resumes to make it look like the candidate is a fit when they aren't. They have been known to lie about candidates. They have been known to try to make the candidates do all the work. They have been known to take jobs posted by companies that do want recruiters involved and then repost them (it makes them look better having these jobs on their books).
My biggest grievance is them having put in zero effort to check if I am a match for the company or the company for me, despite the means to do so being readily available. ie they are wasting the time of everyone involved.
More personal context http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3661261
She overestimates the bad recruiters. Recruiters have been known to advertise non-existent positions so they can build up their folios. They have been known to alter resumes to make it look like the candidate is a fit when they aren't. They have been known to lie about candidates. They have been known to try to make the candidates do all the work. They have been known to take jobs posted by companies that do want recruiters involved and then repost them (it makes them look better having these jobs on their books).
My biggest grievance is them having put in zero effort to check if I am a match for the company or the company for me, despite the means to do so being readily available. ie they are wasting the time of everyone involved.
More personal context http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3661261
The awful recruiter is nowhere near as unethical as the awful hiring manager. I know folks who were asked by the prospective "hiring manager" at companies like Cisco (for a contract gig) to basically show how they'd do the first 3 months of the job.
Some replied with a load of work that they figure would put them ahead of the other candidates. All they got for their efforts was the sound of crickets on the other end... turns out the "hiring manager" was really just trolling for the candidates ideas and work output.
Some replied with a load of work that they figure would put them ahead of the other candidates. All they got for their efforts was the sound of crickets on the other end... turns out the "hiring manager" was really just trolling for the candidates ideas and work output.
Thanks for the comment. I noticed Modis on your list. Do you recall how they earned the spot? I've worked for them (granted, years ago) with no problem. I've had very few bad experiences - never had my resume submitted without approval, or had my resume edited. I do check out a recruiter before working for them and maybe my internal warning system works. Often I try to work for companies that offer insurance, which is a hurdle that fly-by-night shops can't clear.
Protip: If a recruiter ever uses the term "DIRECT CLIENT" in an email, they are ignored, especially if it's in all caps. That seems to be a great filter for getting rid of bad recruiters. I'm not even sure why so many places use it.
Protip: If a recruiter ever uses the term "DIRECT CLIENT" in an email, they are ignored, especially if it's in all caps. That seems to be a great filter for getting rid of bad recruiters. I'm not even sure why so many places use it.
> I noticed Modis on your list. Do you recall how they earned the spot?
They were added in February or March 2011. I don't record specifics as to why, but they all follow the same pattern - a useless content free email where it is obvious they have made no attempt to see if I am good match or the company is, despite the ease with which they could do that. The messages are usually almost indistinguishable from spam. They have to be pretty egregiously bad that I never want to hear from the recruiter ever again under any circumstances!
See also http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3677709
They were added in February or March 2011. I don't record specifics as to why, but they all follow the same pattern - a useless content free email where it is obvious they have made no attempt to see if I am good match or the company is, despite the ease with which they could do that. The messages are usually almost indistinguishable from spam. They have to be pretty egregiously bad that I never want to hear from the recruiter ever again under any circumstances!
See also http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3677709
I agree, some recruiters are borderline scam artists so you can't just take it at face value that they have a job to offer and are interested in you, there can be more to it than that
I've had recruiters submit me for positions I haven't approved (CrossCreek). Oh, yeah, repeatedly. And after I'd talked to them about it. Repeatedly.
I've had them email me en mass for an opportunity (varite.com).
Indian boiler-room VOIP indecipherable accents too numerous to mention (too numerous to mention).
Grossly mis-fit pitches (wrong state, country, skillset).
Recruiters who repeatedly call and leave messages (I expressly state my contact preferences, and have a pretty clear statement on my voicemail regarding same).
Others in my spam list:
aditi.com alphasolutionsinc.com andiamo-group.com artechinfo.co aurionpro.com greythorn-mail.com idexcel.com infobiagrouppanels.com infobiagroups.com kidawa.com mindlance.com myinfobiapanels.com omnikron.com panzersolutions.com streetdirectory.me tscti.com
And I've worked with a handful of folks who are sincere, genuine, and turn up good leads. Best bet is of course personal contacts.
I've had them email me en mass for an opportunity (varite.com).
Indian boiler-room VOIP indecipherable accents too numerous to mention (too numerous to mention).
Grossly mis-fit pitches (wrong state, country, skillset).
Recruiters who repeatedly call and leave messages (I expressly state my contact preferences, and have a pretty clear statement on my voicemail regarding same).
Others in my spam list:
aditi.com alphasolutionsinc.com andiamo-group.com artechinfo.co aurionpro.com greythorn-mail.com idexcel.com infobiagrouppanels.com infobiagroups.com kidawa.com mindlance.com myinfobiapanels.com omnikron.com panzersolutions.com streetdirectory.me tscti.com
And I've worked with a handful of folks who are sincere, genuine, and turn up good leads. Best bet is of course personal contacts.
If you're a consultant, you'll interface with recruiters a lot. I did. Of course your wife is ~right, it's a sound argument... BUT no job, however many opportunities are on your doorstep are any measure of security. eg - life preserver.
I can see not complaining about recruiters in general, but some are just really awful, e.g. soliciting for positions where the candidate is obviously not suitable, and just wasting everybody's time. When there's no chance that you'd get the position in the first place, they're not doing you any favors.
I'm going to take issue with one of the companies on his list, Riviera Partners. I worked with this company for several months last summer (Hey Matt!) and, in my dealings with them, they were utterly professional. I hate recruiters in general, but the guys at Riviera were the definite exception.
First, their list of clients were very top-notch. I did a number of phone screens and on-site interviews with companies I was introduced to via them. Never found exactly what I was looking for, but met lots of cool people and companies.
Matt was my main contact after I asked to only deal with one of their people. Was always professional and helpful. I've had good interactions with some of their other employees too.
First, their list of clients were very top-notch. I did a number of phone screens and on-site interviews with companies I was introduced to via them. Never found exactly what I was looking for, but met lots of cool people and companies.
Matt was my main contact after I asked to only deal with one of their people. Was always professional and helpful. I've had good interactions with some of their other employees too.
I posted my experience with them elsewhere here (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3678767) but it was basically the exact opposite of your's - extremely unprofessional the whole way.
Sucks you had an unpleasant interaction with them. I worked with them quite a bit and never got that. I did stupidly take an interview from a recruiter called Jivaronic or something. That was pretty bad.
Seconded. They helped connect me with top notch interviews over a two month period and were extremely professional and personable. Quite a few of the startups they represent are A-list. I would recommend them to any high caliber engineer.
Until someone changes the payment model for 3rd party recruiters especially, I'll always cheer lists like this on. No matter what a recruiter may tell you, they'll never have your interest at heart if there's a commission to be made. The incentives are wrong for you, wrong for companies too.
There's another list here:
http://www.rogerbinns.com/blocked_recruiters.txt
http://www.rogerbinns.com/blocked_recruiters.txt
Hello again :-) That is my site and list. Here is the context about how the list arose and why I block those recruiters:
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3661261
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3661261
Looking at that list, the thing that occurred to me is how one bad individual can harm the reputation of an otherwise OK firm. The OP obviously had bad anecdotal experiences with every firm on that list. Also anecdotal is the fact that there are recruiters worth talking to one or two of those firms (I've talked to them.) I don't know if my experience makes that firm good or bad - but I also don't know if the OP's experience makes any of those firms good or bad.
What I have done with my "awful" anecdotes was email back the abusive recruiter, and track down the person's boss (usually there's somebody on the web site whose email address you can at least derive.) In the email I say I'm going to start filtering all messages from their domain to deleted items. If the person doesn't respond, the boss usually does, and more often than not the experience is positive - and if not, I'll follow through and send 'em to the trash. It has worked for me.
What I have done with my "awful" anecdotes was email back the abusive recruiter, and track down the person's boss (usually there's somebody on the web site whose email address you can at least derive.) In the email I say I'm going to start filtering all messages from their domain to deleted items. If the person doesn't respond, the boss usually does, and more often than not the experience is positive - and if not, I'll follow through and send 'em to the trash. It has worked for me.
> ... one bad individual can harm the reputation of an otherwise OK firm
If the recruitment firm is unable to make good hiring decisions for itself in its own industry on a topic it knows about, then why should they be trusted for other firms and candidates?
If the recruitment firm is unable to make good hiring decisions for itself in its own industry on a topic it knows about, then why should they be trusted for other firms and candidates?
That's one possibility.
When you've got a firm which continues to establish contact when you've made very clear you do NOT want further contact, or follows really sketchy practices (again: unsolicited submissions -- having two agencies submit you for a position pretty much kills any possibility of the deal) is NOT OK and really should be called out.
When you've got a firm which continues to establish contact when you've made very clear you do NOT want further contact, or follows really sketchy practices (again: unsolicited submissions -- having two agencies submit you for a position pretty much kills any possibility of the deal) is NOT OK and really should be called out.
A week or two ago I got a LinkedIn friend request from a recruiter who used the message to tell me about how I should get in touch with him.
He clearly used the friend request mechanism to skirt around the LinkedIn rules about having to pay to send recruiter mails. I can't imagine how else he would try to cut corners or sell people out to save himself a buck.
He clearly used the friend request mechanism to skirt around the LinkedIn rules about having to pay to send recruiter mails. I can't imagine how else he would try to cut corners or sell people out to save himself a buck.
Wouldn't it be easier to produce a list of good recruiters?
It would be a short list - and you need the list of bad domains to do email filtering.
ugh, yeah the jobspringpartners one I saw in there.. I actually met with them at their office once as I was in town from out of state for another interview so figured why not (I didn't know much about them and figured I should squeeze an extra interview in even if it was going to be a dud)... it was definitely a weird experience, they had me meet with this one girl first, then they send me out in the waiting room to have five different people each come out to meet with me individually and they each asked basically the same stupid questions... and these were really basic questions that were all answered on my resume. Its just odd that companies like this can stay in business. There was no succession of meeting with different levels of managers, etc, they were all just basic recruiters (salespeople), its as if they were either so inept at communicating that they couldn't share information among one another (or take the time to actually read my resume) or that they were so ultra competitive that they couldn't trust one employee to meet with me, they had to add go directly to the source.
I was contacted by a recruiter from Riviera Partners recently. Stupidly, I thought that it might be beneficial to respond to them.
After not receiving a call from him at our scheduled time, I emailed him. He responded three days later telling me that he had called in sick the day he was supposed to call me and asked for my availability in the next few days. I gave him my availability, and never heard back until he just called me out of the blue. It was fine that time, but would have been very annoying if my availability had changed.
We talked for a bit and he said that he wanted to get me in touch with a startup company that he thought had a position that would be a good fit for me - same deal, I gave him my times and received no confirmation until the company called me one afternoon.
A little bit into the phone call it became apparent that he had told them I was open to permanent positions despite me making it very clear to him I was only looking for internships.
Great.
After not receiving a call from him at our scheduled time, I emailed him. He responded three days later telling me that he had called in sick the day he was supposed to call me and asked for my availability in the next few days. I gave him my availability, and never heard back until he just called me out of the blue. It was fine that time, but would have been very annoying if my availability had changed.
We talked for a bit and he said that he wanted to get me in touch with a startup company that he thought had a position that would be a good fit for me - same deal, I gave him my times and received no confirmation until the company called me one afternoon.
A little bit into the phone call it became apparent that he had told them I was open to permanent positions despite me making it very clear to him I was only looking for internships.
Great.
A terrible recruiter from flex-associates.com found me on linkedin, I came "highly recommended", from a super secret sauce. Next day they tried it on with my junior. Same person, same conversation tactic, same lack of knowledge about the industries I work in and the systems I work with and develop for.
I happen to work for one of the firms that is listed in this post. It is so funny how people like to talk smack when they are anon. I think that is ironic that is I were to rate Soffes on his track record, he'd get a C+ maybe...hasn't held a job for more than a year and even when he worked for himself, he lasted less than 2 years...I am not saying that there aren't some Awful recruiters on this list, but obvious Sam has a axe to grind, because that are obvious some well respected firms on the list. I will be sure to add Sam Soffes to our internal list of AwfulCandidates!
Sounds like this person has put himself up on some/many job sites and is wondering why every recruiter on the planet is sending him referrals. Besides, if a particular company sends you a bunch spam, it's usually a 1-3 click process to add them to your spam filter.
As for the list he provided, I don't agree with the top entry. I got a great referral from WorkBridgeAssociates, and our company has found several good people through them as well. (Note: I do not work for or get any kind of recompense from them.)
As for the list he provided, I don't agree with the top entry. I got a great referral from WorkBridgeAssociates, and our company has found several good people through them as well. (Note: I do not work for or get any kind of recompense from them.)
Or, you could easily figure out who this person is and then realize they are quite good and that is why they are getting contacted all the time...?
Yes, that is certainly a possibility. And if they are that good, then they'd definitely have set up a spam filter and not have complained so loudly, so publicly. I don't really care too much either way about it. It seems to be too much huffing and puffing over a trivial issue.
I got my current job from LinkedIn, so it's not all crap from there. A lot of it is, though, so I would understand if a person wasn't patient enough...
I was surprised to see LinkedIn on the list. LinkedIn is _so_ much more than a job exchange. Everything from its Answers (which is often very good, if you scrape off the people who -- for reasons I cannot fathom -- answer 50 questions a day) to its Groups (varying quality, but worth it for the good ones) to just plain old "where's she working now...?" gossip.
I once had a job that depressed the hell out of me. I had thought the company would be good because the job ad said they'd never, ever lost an engineer in more than 10 years of operation.
2 months after I'd left, the same job ad was on the recruiter's website.
2 months after I'd left, the same job ad was on the recruiter's website.
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Don't know if the author is reading, but would be nice if the main domain list was sorted.
Have dealt with a few of those mentioned and agree, and was going to forward the site to our internal recruiter to make sure don't use them. :)
Have dealt with a few of those mentioned and agree, and was going to forward the site to our internal recruiter to make sure don't use them. :)
Add Techlink to the list. Not only do their recruiters lie about the positions they are looking to fill but they get the hiring managers to lie about the positions as well.
Ok. But thebackplane.com is not a "3rd party recruiter" .. they're not even a recruiter. :)
I really wanted to read user-submitted emails they've received from recruiters.
FWIW, I started a tumblr like this and abandoned it due to lack of interest:
http://yousuckatrecruiting.com/
http://yousuckatrecruiting.com/
A couple of friends and I got this idea a few years ago. We've accumulated over 340 companies their recruiters who are less than desirable. Inflated salaries lead the pack of the tactics used. Posting misleading information about the job description and benefits follow closely.
Wouldn't mind some VC-$ to launch.
From experience - most of the job boards are junk, including the ones on that site.
Wouldn't mind some VC-$ to launch.
From experience - most of the job boards are junk, including the ones on that site.
The problem with things like this is who is going to pay for it? Its a rather small market (software developers).. I'm not sure its a viable business model but more of an idea for an open source project
Friendly suggestion ... alphabetize the lists.
Nice list. I was surprised how none of the ones who email me are on it, so I'm assuming recruiters are mostly by area.
One question, though: why are you archiving these in GMail instead of trashing them? If you trash them, you still have 30 days to correct your mistake, and no recruiter email is worthwhile after 30 days anyway.
One question, though: why are you archiving these in GMail instead of trashing them? If you trash them, you still have 30 days to correct your mistake, and no recruiter email is worthwhile after 30 days anyway.
> All third-party recruiters are awful and need to find a real profession.
Wow, I'm not the biggest recruiter fan but this makes the site pretty hard to take seriously.
Wow, I'm not the biggest recruiter fan but this makes the site pretty hard to take seriously.
You can add cybercoders to that list.
They are annoying. In my personal experience, this is the only firm whose recruiters don't even bother reading your resume as opposed to just making sure it was key words.
I second this. I receive emails from them on a weekly basis for jobs that are outside my main skill set.
I'm glad they have my google voice number..it's much easier to block people.
I'm glad they have my google voice number..it's much easier to block people.
It would be great to see an example of the bad recruiter e-mails received from each domain. I think this would give the list some more authority.
I had the same initial reaction, but upon visiting a few of the domains the caliber of the companies became apparent.
Aren't they pretty much all the same? :)
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There's a disclaimer to this effect, but just to reiterate: there are real companies on this list. Good and Lumos Labs are two that I recognize off the bat.
We recruit directly. Our ads are clearly marked at top and bottom with 'We do not use, and never have used, a recruitment agency. Please do not contact us if you are a recruitment agent'
Despite this, we receive multiple calls a day from agencies.
Exasperating!
Despite this, we receive multiple calls a day from agencies.
Exasperating!
I've seen that as well. There are two things going on. One is that agencies will add the jobs to their books. It makes them look better - "hey look at all these cool jobs we are recruiting for".
The second is that they can claim to have introduced a candidate to you and can try to sue. Often a company will just roll over especially if it turns out to be a good candidate.
Remember that the good recruiters will be successful meeting the needs of their clients (employers & candidates). Bad ones won't so they will spread themselves far and wide until they get a bite.
The second is that they can claim to have introduced a candidate to you and can try to sue. Often a company will just roll over especially if it turns out to be a good candidate.
Remember that the good recruiters will be successful meeting the needs of their clients (employers & candidates). Bad ones won't so they will spread themselves far and wide until they get a bite.
> The second is that they can claim to have introduced a candidate to you and can try to sue. Often a company will just roll over especially if it turns out to be a good candidate.
If they have no recruitment contract, how does this hold water? They're suing because you (allegedly) used some unsolicited advice they gave you?
If they have no recruitment contract, how does this hold water? They're suing because you (allegedly) used some unsolicited advice they gave you?
> They're suing because you (allegedly) used some unsolicited advice they gave you?
You seem to be confusing the American legal system with justice and it being free to innocent parties!
The recruiter will claim they sent the candidate details and represented the candidate and now you owe them. If you don't they will take you to court. It will cost the innocent company a fair bit of cash to defend even though they are in the right. So faced with a bill from a scummy recruiter for $10,000 or potential legal costs (not to mention time) of $25,000 they end up picking the former.
The same kind of crap goes on with domain names where squatters will set their price a little below that of following the legal route to get your domain. You either pay them in order to get the domain right now, or you spend several months and even more in legal fees in order to get it via the ICANN rules.
You seem to be confusing the American legal system with justice and it being free to innocent parties!
The recruiter will claim they sent the candidate details and represented the candidate and now you owe them. If you don't they will take you to court. It will cost the innocent company a fair bit of cash to defend even though they are in the right. So faced with a bill from a scummy recruiter for $10,000 or potential legal costs (not to mention time) of $25,000 they end up picking the former.
The same kind of crap goes on with domain names where squatters will set their price a little below that of following the legal route to get your domain. You either pay them in order to get the domain right now, or you spend several months and even more in legal fees in order to get it via the ICANN rules.
"The second is that they can claim to have introduced a candidate to you and can try to sue. Often a company will just roll over especially if it turns out to be a good candidate."
It depends on the market. I have known companies to say outright that due to the conflict, they wouldn't touch the candidate for 6 months or more.
It depends on the market. I have known companies to say outright that due to the conflict, they wouldn't touch the candidate for 6 months or more.
I've been an internal recruiter for NASA, Google, Facebook and Scribd and I have had at least 100 external recruiters contact me and I always say no, and our site itself makes this very clear. Most will followup a few weeks later and ask again. head desk
I'd love to see a RateMyProfessor-style site for recruiters. Among other things, it might provide some reward for the few who try to behave well towards developers and employers.
I agree. I think the great recruiters should be rewarded as they are few and far-between, and the terrible ones should be outed. It'd be nice to turn the tables and evaluate their qualifications just as they do ours.
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I expected this to be a Coding Horror for bad recruiters. Now that would be interesting :)
I complained to my wife after the third call in a row and she explained to me that I should never be upset when someone called because they wanted to get me a job. She had endured a lot of unemployment in her family and a call from a recruiter was a cause for celebration, not complaint. From that point on, I've never complained about a call or email from a recruiter.
2002 and 2003 were some lean years for software jobs and those calls became few and far between. Now the phone is ringing again, and I don't even have my resume posted anywhere. Still, I won't complain and I haven't blocked emails from any recruiter.
I actually go out of my way to respond to recruiters that seem halfway decent or better. A couple have expressed grateful surprise and I've made new connections that may work out in the future. The awful ones aren't blocked (at least none have been so awful to merit blocking so far), but I don't respond to them either. I just keep the channel open in case times do get lean once again.
The third-party recruiter model may indeed be broken, and, with a few exceptions, isn't a fit for the startup world. It does however seem to work well enough for nearly every BigCo in existence and should I work for a BigCo on contract once again, I'll likely work through a third-party recruiter.