The Internet Made Me Sad Today(raganwald.posterous.com)
raganwald.posterous.com
The Internet Made Me Sad Today
http://raganwald.posterous.com/the-internet-made-me-sad-today
185 comments
This reminds me of an episode of South Park:
[http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/154597/find-the-heart]
The kids try to find the "heart of Wallmart" so they can destroy it (being the evil mom-and-pop store demolisher that it is). When they finally locate the mythical Heart of Wallmart, it turns out it just a mirror. In other words, the problem is not Wallmart (or Google, or whatever), it is us.
On another note, games (in general) are not so bad (although the ones they were advertising probably were). Even the games many people might view as mindless (such as your average FPS) are actually deeply embedded with strategy. I actually learned a lot from games - not just strategy or spacial intelligence or hand eye coordination, but many of the same things I would have learned if I picked up a science fiction or fantasy book. Children today are glued to screens, and I think the only cure may be to embrace this and find a better way to use games as educational tools.
[http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/154597/find-the-heart]
The kids try to find the "heart of Wallmart" so they can destroy it (being the evil mom-and-pop store demolisher that it is). When they finally locate the mythical Heart of Wallmart, it turns out it just a mirror. In other words, the problem is not Wallmart (or Google, or whatever), it is us.
On another note, games (in general) are not so bad (although the ones they were advertising probably were). Even the games many people might view as mindless (such as your average FPS) are actually deeply embedded with strategy. I actually learned a lot from games - not just strategy or spacial intelligence or hand eye coordination, but many of the same things I would have learned if I picked up a science fiction or fantasy book. Children today are glued to screens, and I think the only cure may be to embrace this and find a better way to use games as educational tools.
The problem is actually a mutually reinforcing feedback cycle between culture and corporation that gives rise to addictive superstimuli. But I suppose "the problem is us" is an equally useful observation.
'the problem is us' is a useful observation in that clearly humans are vulnerable to addictive stimuli that were not abundant as we evolved.
That vulnerability isn't likely to change soon.
We can however recognize that activities designed to exploit it are harmful.
That vulnerability isn't likely to change soon.
We can however recognize that activities designed to exploit it are harmful.
Get ready to be even more sad, as everyone on Hacker News completely misses the point of your rant.
> Scanning down underneath the diagram, I saw “Play Games on Google+” along with a lot of small text. I kept scanning, thinking that the column of text had something to do with playing games.
Funny, I had the exact opposite reaction. I am so used to skipping over ads with my eyes that I literally didn't even notice there was an ad there; I read the article about dinosaurs, and when I read the above sentence, I had to go back up to the screenshot and verify that there was indeed a Google+ ad there, that I'd totally failed to see.
Funny, I had the exact opposite reaction. I am so used to skipping over ads with my eyes that I literally didn't even notice there was an ad there; I read the article about dinosaurs, and when I read the above sentence, I had to go back up to the screenshot and verify that there was indeed a Google+ ad there, that I'd totally failed to see.
I'm like you in that I skipped over it. However, physorg needs to take some of the heat here because they pick the background, fonts, and colors for the ad insert (not the bolding). So they consciously choose to make their ads look like copy and that is unethical.
I applaud this fantastically succinct point: "Some foods taste good but kill you. Some drugs make you feel good but rot your brain. And some ads lead the curious away from knowledge."
I do think, however, that it's incredibly difficult to construct an entirely machine-learning- and auction-based ad network without these sorts of problems popping up. Especially with presumably low dinosaur-related ad inventory to choose from. (Perhaps dinosaurs -> kids -> games isn't a far leap in terms of correlation?)
Based on physorg's deceptive ad placement, text styling, and terrible anti-aging ad selection for the bottom, I would argue that our collective sadness is better directed at them than at Google.
I do think, however, that it's incredibly difficult to construct an entirely machine-learning- and auction-based ad network without these sorts of problems popping up. Especially with presumably low dinosaur-related ad inventory to choose from. (Perhaps dinosaurs -> kids -> games isn't a far leap in terms of correlation?)
Based on physorg's deceptive ad placement, text styling, and terrible anti-aging ad selection for the bottom, I would argue that our collective sadness is better directed at them than at Google.
Perhaps the 'machine-learning-and-auction-based-ad network' just isn't a good thing. Is this really the end-state for human civilization?
I think it's a good thing in that it's led to the most commercially successful search and ads company in history (which - in large part - does deliver very relevant content, and relatively lower sadness than many competitors). But it's clear there is much room to improve.
That point you're addressing was meant to illustrate one way in which it is difficult to find an ad match that doesn't induce sadness. (As opposed to defend the current approach as the "end-state")
That point you're addressing was meant to illustrate one way in which it is difficult to find an ad match that doesn't induce sadness. (As opposed to defend the current approach as the "end-state")
How about not showing ads in those cases?
I'm no expert, but two things come to mind:
1a) That is sub-optimal for ad publishers. I think in building such a system you have to assume they want to make the most money. And while ANY ad may not make much money, it's certainly not capped at the $0 they can expect from NO ad.
1b) Also: imagine if you implement AdCompanyX's html, and you see nothing. Is it broken? Out of ad inventory? Not yet parsed your page? It's not an impossible problem, but it adds UX complexity.
2) As I said in the original post, It's possible it's actually too far of a leap to go from dinosaurs (to kids?) to games. If this is the case, imagine some sort of fitness function scoring how close the best inventory match is to the content of the page. There's a cutoff under which you show no ad. Dinosaur could likely still be close enough to pass this test. Especially given the relatively little text in this example.
1a) That is sub-optimal for ad publishers. I think in building such a system you have to assume they want to make the most money. And while ANY ad may not make much money, it's certainly not capped at the $0 they can expect from NO ad.
1b) Also: imagine if you implement AdCompanyX's html, and you see nothing. Is it broken? Out of ad inventory? Not yet parsed your page? It's not an impossible problem, but it adds UX complexity.
2) As I said in the original post, It's possible it's actually too far of a leap to go from dinosaurs (to kids?) to games. If this is the case, imagine some sort of fitness function scoring how close the best inventory match is to the content of the page. There's a cutoff under which you show no ad. Dinosaur could likely still be close enough to pass this test. Especially given the relatively little text in this example.
FYI your cutoff idea is what Google actually does. Ad quality is a problem Google works on. The main complaint people have is that Google doesn't do a good enough job of overruling users "for their own good" when those users are consistently actively telling Google what they want to see.
If that were true, why would there be a need for Adblock? Google would just stop showing ads to people who don't like them, or would be showing us all such great stuff that we'd be grateful for them.
All of these seem reasonable, if the only goal is to optimize things for Google and the ad publishers. What about the end user experience?
This viewpoint as raganwald expressed it is too oversimplifying for my tastes.
It's pretty .. well, wrong.. to say that all Google engineers are working on is putting ads on web pages. Similarly it's not true that a whole generation of people are working on ads. Google is working on a tremendous number of things -- as is the rest of this industry. It boggles the mind.
I do; however, agree with the generalization of his point (and it's not a unique or new one) that what the technology industry has produced in the first 10 years of the 21st century is mostly a letdown compared to what got done in the last 10 years of the 20th century.
The first dot-com bubble left us with the worldwide infrastructure that powers the Internet today. What will this social-networking bubble leave us with when it pops?
Hopefully strong AI and the best possible tools for dealing with petabytes of data -- but this is likely just wishful thinking on my part.
It's pretty .. well, wrong.. to say that all Google engineers are working on is putting ads on web pages. Similarly it's not true that a whole generation of people are working on ads. Google is working on a tremendous number of things -- as is the rest of this industry. It boggles the mind.
I do; however, agree with the generalization of his point (and it's not a unique or new one) that what the technology industry has produced in the first 10 years of the 21st century is mostly a letdown compared to what got done in the last 10 years of the 20th century.
The first dot-com bubble left us with the worldwide infrastructure that powers the Internet today. What will this social-networking bubble leave us with when it pops?
Hopefully strong AI and the best possible tools for dealing with petabytes of data -- but this is likely just wishful thinking on my part.
Yeah I think in many cases its all a matter of perspective. You can look at any Google product, analyze it long enough and then understand how it will lead to a stronger advertising business model for them. On the other hand you can look at it and say that is potentially exciting technology for reasons that have nothing to do with advertising.
Probably most of the engineers at Google don't think of themselves as working in advertising and probably shouldn't but Id say almost indisputedly their paycheck is mostly coming from advertising and people clicking on mindless ads.
I think the main problem is how do you solve and build business around interesting problems that don't have the ability to be monetized through click advertising which most of the internet seems to be funded by.
Probably most of the engineers at Google don't think of themselves as working in advertising and probably shouldn't but Id say almost indisputedly their paycheck is mostly coming from advertising and people clicking on mindless ads.
I think the main problem is how do you solve and build business around interesting problems that don't have the ability to be monetized through click advertising which most of the internet seems to be funded by.
I think you don't fully remember how different 2000 is from today.
You're looking at remnant inventory.
Inventory (advertiser speak for "a page view plus a slot available on that page which we could sell an ad against") are a lot like cuts of meat. Some are worth a lot of money. Some are not, and end up getting sold to be turned into fertilizer or paste to infect cows with all matter of diseases.
Things that tend to make inventory worth more money:
1) Better matching algorithms. This is, fundamentally, why Google is rich beyond the dreams of mortal men.
2) For contextual ads, being matched against content which suggests immediate purchasing intent for something which has a high customer LTV, high transaction value, and/or high margins.
3) Failing that, for brand ads, characteristics of the inventory suggest a "desirable" person at the keyboard. Ideally, you're a rich white American, male or female depending on which brand is trying to reach you, and this is one of the very few ads you will see today.
4) Within this particular session, this is the first ad you've seen.
5) You're American, Canadian, British, northern European, gap here German, Japanese, big gap other first world nation, titanic gulf anyone else.
6) The page the ad appearing on is itself of high social esteem such that the ad will have the halo effect.
Inventory which matches the above descriptions can be sold to advertisers using dedicated sales representatives. Everything else is remnant inventory -- literally, that which remains after our ad sales guys had as many steak-and-booze meetings with the marketing execs at Audi as they can possibly have.
Options for remnant inventory are: a) backfill ad channels like AdWords, which makes some remnant inventory almost as valuable as brandable inventory (e.g. if I write a blog post about credit cards and you happen to read it you're very nearly as useful as someone reading a post on the NYT about credit cards), b) house ads, and c) backfill from ad networks, such as Google house ads. (House ads are, e.g., "We couldn't sell a commercial for our TV channel so instead we'll show a commercial for another show on that channel or another business affiliated with ourselves.")
So, why is your page view remnant inventory?
1) Because generic Internet news sites generate a metric truckload of page views.
2) Because your user behavior was, sorry to say, probably not seeing that ad as the first thing you saw today.
3) Because algorithmically you don't look like a rich white American.
4) Because there are very poor transactional options for monetizing someone if all you know about them is "Possibly interested in dinosaurs," so direct response marketers are unlikely to bid on that site.
5) Because physorg.com does not have a sophisticated ad sales operation which routinely has steak dinners with ad buyers at Proctor & Gamble or any other large brand advertisers.
OK, so you're remnant inventory. Why are you seeing Google+ game ads?
1) Because Google has virtually infinite funny-money to buy ads on Google AdSense at low, low prices because they're crappy backfill remnant inventory that costs them CPMs below $1.
2) Because Google thinks promoting Google+ is their overarching strategic priority right now (they're wrong) and ...
3) ... because Google thinks that engagement on social networks is in large degree driven by games (they're right)
Is remnant inventory necessarily a bad thing?
No, because remnant inventory will inevitably be generated by attempting to monetize (with ads) any website which can't afford a direct steak-and-drinks ad sales force who can charge stupid amounts of money to brand advertisers. If you perceive any value at all out of physorg.com, you should be happy that Google is underwriting it out of their massive pile of money that they get out of controlling navigation and advertising on the Internet.
There exist non-advertising methods by which you could subsidize the creation of content which you like. Many of them involve paying non-trivial amounts of money, or praying that your interests happen to align with the interests of someone who is willing to subsidize your own consumption.
Remnant inventory also enables the creation of actual value, though you're not seeing it when you see diet pill scams. For example, almost all of Bingo Card Creator's substantial advertising budget is spent on remnant inventory at 3 to 8 cents a click, and while the websites that $15k+ a year goes to are not ones you'd really love your mother to be spending time on, selling BCC to the teachers who happen to be on them does at least help children learn to read and underwrite my quirky online pursuits like writing excessively long comments.
Remnant inventory is also virtually synonymous with Google, which a multinational advertising company which occasionally produces industrial biproducts of advertising which generate non-trivial amounts of value for almost every human alive.
Inventory (advertiser speak for "a page view plus a slot available on that page which we could sell an ad against") are a lot like cuts of meat. Some are worth a lot of money. Some are not, and end up getting sold to be turned into fertilizer or paste to infect cows with all matter of diseases.
Things that tend to make inventory worth more money:
1) Better matching algorithms. This is, fundamentally, why Google is rich beyond the dreams of mortal men.
2) For contextual ads, being matched against content which suggests immediate purchasing intent for something which has a high customer LTV, high transaction value, and/or high margins.
3) Failing that, for brand ads, characteristics of the inventory suggest a "desirable" person at the keyboard. Ideally, you're a rich white American, male or female depending on which brand is trying to reach you, and this is one of the very few ads you will see today.
4) Within this particular session, this is the first ad you've seen.
5) You're American, Canadian, British, northern European, gap here German, Japanese, big gap other first world nation, titanic gulf anyone else.
6) The page the ad appearing on is itself of high social esteem such that the ad will have the halo effect.
Inventory which matches the above descriptions can be sold to advertisers using dedicated sales representatives. Everything else is remnant inventory -- literally, that which remains after our ad sales guys had as many steak-and-booze meetings with the marketing execs at Audi as they can possibly have.
Options for remnant inventory are: a) backfill ad channels like AdWords, which makes some remnant inventory almost as valuable as brandable inventory (e.g. if I write a blog post about credit cards and you happen to read it you're very nearly as useful as someone reading a post on the NYT about credit cards), b) house ads, and c) backfill from ad networks, such as Google house ads. (House ads are, e.g., "We couldn't sell a commercial for our TV channel so instead we'll show a commercial for another show on that channel or another business affiliated with ourselves.")
So, why is your page view remnant inventory?
1) Because generic Internet news sites generate a metric truckload of page views.
2) Because your user behavior was, sorry to say, probably not seeing that ad as the first thing you saw today.
3) Because algorithmically you don't look like a rich white American.
4) Because there are very poor transactional options for monetizing someone if all you know about them is "Possibly interested in dinosaurs," so direct response marketers are unlikely to bid on that site.
5) Because physorg.com does not have a sophisticated ad sales operation which routinely has steak dinners with ad buyers at Proctor & Gamble or any other large brand advertisers.
OK, so you're remnant inventory. Why are you seeing Google+ game ads?
1) Because Google has virtually infinite funny-money to buy ads on Google AdSense at low, low prices because they're crappy backfill remnant inventory that costs them CPMs below $1.
2) Because Google thinks promoting Google+ is their overarching strategic priority right now (they're wrong) and ...
3) ... because Google thinks that engagement on social networks is in large degree driven by games (they're right)
Is remnant inventory necessarily a bad thing?
No, because remnant inventory will inevitably be generated by attempting to monetize (with ads) any website which can't afford a direct steak-and-drinks ad sales force who can charge stupid amounts of money to brand advertisers. If you perceive any value at all out of physorg.com, you should be happy that Google is underwriting it out of their massive pile of money that they get out of controlling navigation and advertising on the Internet.
There exist non-advertising methods by which you could subsidize the creation of content which you like. Many of them involve paying non-trivial amounts of money, or praying that your interests happen to align with the interests of someone who is willing to subsidize your own consumption.
Remnant inventory also enables the creation of actual value, though you're not seeing it when you see diet pill scams. For example, almost all of Bingo Card Creator's substantial advertising budget is spent on remnant inventory at 3 to 8 cents a click, and while the websites that $15k+ a year goes to are not ones you'd really love your mother to be spending time on, selling BCC to the teachers who happen to be on them does at least help children learn to read and underwrite my quirky online pursuits like writing excessively long comments.
Remnant inventory is also virtually synonymous with Google, which a multinational advertising company which occasionally produces industrial biproducts of advertising which generate non-trivial amounts of value for almost every human alive.
This is very informative and you make many cogent observations. However, you don't even remotely address the point of the article, which, as far as I understand it, is that something is fundamentally wrong if a child wants to learn about dinosaurs and he/she is lured away with addictive games. Even more so if this is considered the pinnacle of our combined capabilities and at the same time a hint of the future into which we are heading.
It's a comment, not a debate. I'm not trying to crush raganwald's constructive and collect many finger snaps from the judges. I'm just trying to explain how Internet advertising works for a community which a) viscerally despises advertising, b) often dreams of working for an advertising company, and c) even if they don't work directly for the ad company will have their careers determined in large part by their ability to form an accurate mental model of how advertising actually works. To the limited extent that I disagree with raganwald about anything, I think that any mental model where "An ad for a BBC documentary about dinosaurs" sounds like a more attractive placement for this pageview than "generic remant inventory" economically is likely flawed. That mental model has not come to grips with the fact that the conversion math would suggest a click on that ad would be worth fractions of a hundredth of a penny to the BBC and cost several orders of magnitude more.
Patrick, your argument is flawless, but you've become a bit of a robot. There must be some reason why they don't put Marlboro ads in a lung cancer clinic or a Ballantine's ad in an alcohol rehab center. Surely they would be perfect choices for the well-defined audience that frequents those places and they would make perfect sense economically, more than whatever else they put on those walls. Someone might even come along and say, hey, as long as it pays for the heating, it's good for everyone, right?
Also, I think you misrepresent Raganwald's point. I don't think he claims that economically a BBC ad would be better than an online game ad, he must be thinking along some other axis, along which it would rank higher.
Also, I think you misrepresent Raganwald's point. I don't think he claims that economically a BBC ad would be better than an online game ad, he must be thinking along some other axis, along which it would rank higher.
Economically one might say that raganwald is observing a negative externality resulting from the deal between Google and the publisher. It doesn't cost either of them anything if they interrupt a child's homework to sell them a game of bejeweled because the advertising pipeline was going to run anyway for that pageview, but in raganwald's view it does cost society.
I agree with raganwald on this. Sure search is immensely valuable, and sure, the things that internet use displaces were worse.
We're better off post-google than pre-google. But can't we improve on this? Is this how it's going to be in 100 years time?
I agree with raganwald on this. Sure search is immensely valuable, and sure, the things that internet use displaces were worse.
We're better off post-google than pre-google. But can't we improve on this? Is this how it's going to be in 100 years time?
He's describing the behavior of a massive real-time international marketplace that's (wild-ass guess) 99% under algorithmic control. I don't see how you could avoid sounding like a robot if you wanted to accurately describe its high-level behavior.
I think you and Patrick are illustrating the philosophical distinction between "is" and "ought".
OC does not misrepresent the point, he does not engage it, (those are distinct). In not engaging it, he provided tremendous value for everyone ITT.
[Thanks, Patrick]
However, if you want someone to bite - I will. Why bother engaging in moralizing if you don't care enough about your values to pay for them? Better yet, how much is your morality worth to you?
"I know that this engine is driven by the money, and the money is in luring people into Google's social thingamajiggy instead of trying to sell someone a book or a course or even a BBC/Discover/National Geographic edutainment special on dinosaurs or natural history.
But you know, the whole point of having values is that sometimes you don't do the most expedient thing or the most profitable thing or the easy thing. That’s what makes them values, you value them more then pecuniarum."
Well, if Raganwald wishes to educate children, why not create a service that serves educational ads instead of selling add slots to the highest bidder? Because it wouldn't be able to compete with Google outside of some tiny niche. Clearly, society as a whole is not willing to pay for this moral value, namely educating children.
It might be tempting to trivialize this by the way of "heartless businessmen" argument, but that would be misrepresenting the point. The point is - in a society where the only over-arching value is money, morality becomes a liability. One could argue that this is an inevitable state of human affairs due to $characteristic_of_human_nature. However, to me this seems to be more of an inevitable consequence of implementation of a universal means of exchange. Not everything boils down to money - true. But most things do. And most things will always be enough for some people. And the rest will ultimately have to follow. That, or find a clever way to monetize their "moral liabilities".
[Thanks, Patrick]
However, if you want someone to bite - I will. Why bother engaging in moralizing if you don't care enough about your values to pay for them? Better yet, how much is your morality worth to you?
"I know that this engine is driven by the money, and the money is in luring people into Google's social thingamajiggy instead of trying to sell someone a book or a course or even a BBC/Discover/National Geographic edutainment special on dinosaurs or natural history.
But you know, the whole point of having values is that sometimes you don't do the most expedient thing or the most profitable thing or the easy thing. That’s what makes them values, you value them more then pecuniarum."
Well, if Raganwald wishes to educate children, why not create a service that serves educational ads instead of selling add slots to the highest bidder? Because it wouldn't be able to compete with Google outside of some tiny niche. Clearly, society as a whole is not willing to pay for this moral value, namely educating children.
It might be tempting to trivialize this by the way of "heartless businessmen" argument, but that would be misrepresenting the point. The point is - in a society where the only over-arching value is money, morality becomes a liability. One could argue that this is an inevitable state of human affairs due to $characteristic_of_human_nature. However, to me this seems to be more of an inevitable consequence of implementation of a universal means of exchange. Not everything boils down to money - true. But most things do. And most things will always be enough for some people. And the rest will ultimately have to follow. That, or find a clever way to monetize their "moral liabilities".
> However, to me this seems to be more of an inevitable consequence of implementation of a universal means of exchange.
Disagree.
Anytime humans get ahold of a metric, they fuck it up and make it mean something it never did intend to mean. But, hey, animals did it, so we don't need to rise above that.
Disagree.
Anytime humans get ahold of a metric, they fuck it up and make it mean something it never did intend to mean. But, hey, animals did it, so we don't need to rise above that.
Patrick is talking about how things work today. You seem to be trying to convince him that they should work differently. (Maybe they should, maybe they shouldn't. I'm not going to comment on that right now.)
You're talking past each other.
You're talking past each other.
I know and I appreciate his explanation, although much of it was not new to me. I was not trying to convince him of anything, just commenting on what I think the original story was about.
The reason there are no marlboro ads in lung cancer clinics is because it would generate massively bad PR, other than that it's a phenomenal idea.
Especially for former smokers who now no longer have any risk factors from smoking. A lung cancer diagnosis is a perfect "smoke 'em if ya gotta em" moment.
Especially for former smokers who now no longer have any risk factors from smoking. A lung cancer diagnosis is a perfect "smoke 'em if ya gotta em" moment.
I don't think anyone disagree with the mechanics Patrick.
It's more whether it's tricking people to click rather than informing them.
Same way I felt tricked when I gave dustin curtis a kudos (vote up on his site) because he triggers it on roll over rather than a click.
I seem to remember you doing something along those lines on that teacher site. and personally I don't mind these things, it's after all just bits and bytes, but I can't help feeling there is a hidden agenda in your post.
Surely you can see that the aim of the site is not reflected in the way they try to make their money.
It's more whether it's tricking people to click rather than informing them.
Same way I felt tricked when I gave dustin curtis a kudos (vote up on his site) because he triggers it on roll over rather than a click.
I seem to remember you doing something along those lines on that teacher site. and personally I don't mind these things, it's after all just bits and bytes, but I can't help feeling there is a hidden agenda in your post.
Surely you can see that the aim of the site is not reflected in the way they try to make their money.
Thanks, very interesting and informative comment on how the ad business works. In my head I'm hearing Frank Zappa sing "I am the slime from the video" and Mick Jagger sing "Satisfaction".
It shouldn't sadden us though. We have to protect our children from this crap, the best way is to not let them see it until they are old enough and then to teach then how to distinguish between information and bullshit from someone selling crap.
We can only go so far in asking others to protect our children and our elders, we have to step up to the plate also.
We still haven't figured out how to turn the tables on this and monetize our attention, it is extremely valuable, more so than we think.
It shouldn't sadden us though. We have to protect our children from this crap, the best way is to not let them see it until they are old enough and then to teach then how to distinguish between information and bullshit from someone selling crap.
We can only go so far in asking others to protect our children and our elders, we have to step up to the plate also.
We still haven't figured out how to turn the tables on this and monetize our attention, it is extremely valuable, more so than we think.
Remnant inventory is also virtually synonymous with Google...
really, how?
...which a multinational advertising company which occasionally produces industrial biproducts of advertising...
what?
...which generate non-trivial amounts of value for almost every human alive.
wat? Do you really believe this?
really, how?
...which a multinational advertising company which occasionally produces industrial biproducts of advertising...
what?
...which generate non-trivial amounts of value for almost every human alive.
wat? Do you really believe this?
really, how?
Advertising is not traditionally sold on a self-service basis. It is traditionally sold via Big Enterprise Sales processes, caricatured above as "steak dinners between advertising sales and ad buyers at big brands." This is enormously big business: ever bus ad, every TV ad, most newspaper ads, etc that you've ever seen was sold this way.
Google is the alternative model for advertising, and (as such) is overwhelmingly remnant inventory: that which we still have to sell after the Enterprise Ad Sales is over with. Google makes 97% of their revenues -- read their annual reports for how many billions of dollars that is -- through a) creation of remnant inventory (primarily on their search engine) and b) monetization of remnant inventory (2/3 on their own properties, 1/3 all over the public Internet).
Do you really believe this?
There is a little bit of exaggeration and understatement for comedic effect -- specifically, the words "biproduct" and "non-trivial." I absolutely believe, in my heart of hearts, that Google is primarily an advertising company which makes excellent use of technology, not a technology company which makes good use of advertising. That is easily the most controversial opinion about our industry that I have. I also think that Google has created more value for more people than probably any other company in history. I respect that you may think differently about either or both of these points.
Advertising is not traditionally sold on a self-service basis. It is traditionally sold via Big Enterprise Sales processes, caricatured above as "steak dinners between advertising sales and ad buyers at big brands." This is enormously big business: ever bus ad, every TV ad, most newspaper ads, etc that you've ever seen was sold this way.
Google is the alternative model for advertising, and (as such) is overwhelmingly remnant inventory: that which we still have to sell after the Enterprise Ad Sales is over with. Google makes 97% of their revenues -- read their annual reports for how many billions of dollars that is -- through a) creation of remnant inventory (primarily on their search engine) and b) monetization of remnant inventory (2/3 on their own properties, 1/3 all over the public Internet).
Do you really believe this?
There is a little bit of exaggeration and understatement for comedic effect -- specifically, the words "biproduct" and "non-trivial." I absolutely believe, in my heart of hearts, that Google is primarily an advertising company which makes excellent use of technology, not a technology company which makes good use of advertising. That is easily the most controversial opinion about our industry that I have. I also think that Google has created more value for more people than probably any other company in history. I respect that you may think differently about either or both of these points.
...Google is primarily an advertising company which makes excellent use of technology, not a technology company which makes good use of advertising.
I absolutely agree with that, and don't really see anything controversial in that statement.
I also think that Google has created more value for more people than probably any other company in history.
If they are in fact an advertising company (which we agree) then the value they have created has been extracted from more people than probably any other company in history.
Advertisers don't create value out of nothing, the value comes from distracting people and devaluing their browsing experience. Even traditional "big enterprise steak dinners" advertising companies have worked this way, selling 30 second TV spots and filling your mailbox with junk. Google is able to extract a lot more value than ever before only because the Internet contains so many users and so much content that they can do it in such tiny units that it pretty much goes unnoticed. (Until it passes someone's personal threshold for annoyance, and they write a blog post about it.)
My personal (selfish) opinion is that it is sad, and that the overabundance of advertising on the Internet has made it a worse-off place for me. My browsing is inefficient, and my search results are less relevant, and my time is ill spent (either scrolling past things I don't want to see, or waiting for pages to load, or actively installing ad blocking software). Yes, I know I'm being selfish. Still, I do see it as a necessary evil, and I don't see how things could be any other way.
I absolutely agree with that, and don't really see anything controversial in that statement.
I also think that Google has created more value for more people than probably any other company in history.
If they are in fact an advertising company (which we agree) then the value they have created has been extracted from more people than probably any other company in history.
Advertisers don't create value out of nothing, the value comes from distracting people and devaluing their browsing experience. Even traditional "big enterprise steak dinners" advertising companies have worked this way, selling 30 second TV spots and filling your mailbox with junk. Google is able to extract a lot more value than ever before only because the Internet contains so many users and so much content that they can do it in such tiny units that it pretty much goes unnoticed. (Until it passes someone's personal threshold for annoyance, and they write a blog post about it.)
My personal (selfish) opinion is that it is sad, and that the overabundance of advertising on the Internet has made it a worse-off place for me. My browsing is inefficient, and my search results are less relevant, and my time is ill spent (either scrolling past things I don't want to see, or waiting for pages to load, or actively installing ad blocking software). Yes, I know I'm being selfish. Still, I do see it as a necessary evil, and I don't see how things could be any other way.
I may be wrong but I think Patrick was referring to the people who can put up a minor website and earn 'lifestyle' living dollars out of it. Google has created this industry with their AdSense for Content system. Prior to this a small player (read small web site) would have no chance of selling advertising space to a 'big name' and conversely a 'big name' would never seek out the small guys (well their ad agency might or might not).
The 'value' creation is the small web site owners. And they filled the money pot for that eco system with remnant advertising dollars.
The 'value' creation is the small web site owners. And they filled the money pot for that eco system with remnant advertising dollars.
The 'value' creation is the small web site owners. And they filled the money pot for that eco system with remnant advertising dollars.
I think it's great that small website owners can use AdSense to monetize what they do, but that really doesn't support the claim that "Google has created more value for more people than probably any other company in history."
I think it's great that small website owners can use AdSense to monetize what they do, but that really doesn't support the claim that "Google has created more value for more people than probably any other company in history."
Your argument, though, doesn't make Patrick's point necessarily false.
Even if Google take more value from people than any other company, they can still provide a portion of that value to n other people, and assuming n is larger than any other company's n, Patrick's point still holds.
</pedant>
Even if Google take more value from people than any other company, they can still provide a portion of that value to n other people, and assuming n is larger than any other company's n, Patrick's point still holds.
</pedant>
Not pedantic, it's the core of the issue.
Also, it is not obvious how much much of Google's ad profit is extraction (via being the monopolistic intermediary running an auction) vs creating genuinely novel introductions between buyers and sellers.
Also, Google's value creation is not just in the money they pay to websites, it is also in their products (search, mail, etc)
Also, it is not obvious how much much of Google's ad profit is extraction (via being the monopolistic intermediary running an auction) vs creating genuinely novel introductions between buyers and sellers.
Also, Google's value creation is not just in the money they pay to websites, it is also in their products (search, mail, etc)
Is that assumption likely to hold?
Not only adsense, but the simple google search engine itself. "A free worldwide massive search engine available to anyone on the internet that works almost instanteneously" is like far out science fiction a few years ago.
They also give people free, massive, email accounts that has allowed many people to communicate, for free, with millions (billions?) of other people.
They also give people free, massive, email accounts that has allowed many people to communicate, for free, with millions (billions?) of other people.
"then the value they have created has been extracted from more people than probably any other company in history."
take a basic economics course. it's not a zero sum game.
take a basic economics course. it's not a zero sum game.
The ad consumers experience an externality to the transaction between google and the publisher. The sum of the game may be negative or positive. Which do you think it is, and why?
Google's ads are the single easiest-to-block set of ads in the history of mankind, online or meatspace. The simple fact that most folks don't bother to block then show that either they aren't too negative, or people are so dumb and lazy that humanity is a lost cause anyway.
Only if you assume that being 'dumb' or 'lazy' is predominantly innate and not shaped by experience or opportunity.
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To your definition of inventory: "a page view plus a slot available on that page which we could sell an ad against", Google does not sell an ad display, they predominantly sell clicks on ads and therefore Google has a key incentive to display ads that get more clicks per display, hence the importance of CTR (click-through-rate) because they will get more revenue for the same page views. I am sure you know that, but I think it's worth mentioning. So I would define inventory as "a page view plus a slot available on that page which Google can use to maximise revenue".
Patrick, thank you for your well-thought-out response. I appreciate your longer posts because you tease out things I hadn't thought of. From now on, I dub you the Dennis Miller of HN (apologies to those who don't get the reference). I think I have to re-read your posts 2-3 times to fully understand them.
"Because physorg.com does not have a sophisticated ad sales operation which routinely has steak dinners with ad buyers at Proctor & Gamble or any other large brand advertisers."
This is an exaggeration of how this process works. Most ad sales for publishers runs through an RFP process that is managed mostly by agencies, not the brands. There are a ton of brands looking spend money in this way, but ultimately you have to have someone that is good at closing, as well as maximizing the value of your inventory.
This person, of course, is very difficult to find for a publisher of any size.
My point however, I wouldn't make the mistake of thinking the online ad sales business is a bunch of modern day Don Draper types... it's much, much less interesting.
This is an exaggeration of how this process works. Most ad sales for publishers runs through an RFP process that is managed mostly by agencies, not the brands. There are a ton of brands looking spend money in this way, but ultimately you have to have someone that is good at closing, as well as maximizing the value of your inventory.
This person, of course, is very difficult to find for a publisher of any size.
My point however, I wouldn't make the mistake of thinking the online ad sales business is a bunch of modern day Don Draper types... it's much, much less interesting.
I like to think of the information I consume online as more than "inventory".
The information is not the inventory, because this particular information is not available for sale in a rivalrous fashion. Your attention is the inventory. (This is sometimes phrased sardonically as "If you're not paying for it, you are the product.")
Exactly. I've made the same comments re being the customer vs. the product regarding Facebook. Except with Facebook, there's a lot more than users' attention on offer to advertisers.
The real question is, would content quality improve if we paid for it directly, instead of indirectly through ads?
The real question is, would content quality improve if we paid for it directly, instead of indirectly through ads?
Another related question: What content would not exist if you had to charge for it and couldn't use ads?
Great overview of how ads work, but the rant is still valid. As the end, the environment around us will end up to be very similar to one described in the movie Idiocracy.
Yeah, but the blame the article's author espouses is misplaced.
It's not Google's fault that people want to play games any more than it's the sun's fault that it's shining outside of my window on days when I need to get real work done.
As usual it's easier to blame icons and officials in situations where really it's the consumers that drive these corporate decisions with their everyday decisions.
Granted, Google is showing self-serving ads that benefit it... but then again, maybe that site the opinion writer was reading is only possible because Google Adwords funds it. That part is a wash to me.
Sure, there's something sad in all this. It's sad that people want to play mindless games, watch sports, watch reality tv, etc. instead of learning and growing 99% of the time (or whatever) when given the choice. I don't really fault entertainers for providing the entertainment, though.
It's not Google's fault that people want to play games any more than it's the sun's fault that it's shining outside of my window on days when I need to get real work done.
As usual it's easier to blame icons and officials in situations where really it's the consumers that drive these corporate decisions with their everyday decisions.
Granted, Google is showing self-serving ads that benefit it... but then again, maybe that site the opinion writer was reading is only possible because Google Adwords funds it. That part is a wash to me.
Sure, there's something sad in all this. It's sad that people want to play mindless games, watch sports, watch reality tv, etc. instead of learning and growing 99% of the time (or whatever) when given the choice. I don't really fault entertainers for providing the entertainment, though.
I don't think the blame is misplaced - raganwald addresses your point in the post, that "whatever people click on is obviously right", and that it's a cop-out.
Yeah, a lot of people will choose a Big Mac over a salad, and a lot of people will scarf down fried chicken before a sandwich - that doesn't make their choices optimal, either for themselves or for society at large.
You're also discounting the enormous effect policy has. We've gone from a nation of chain-smokers to one where I don't have to walk through clouds of smoke to get from A to B, and this has largely been driven not by some phenomenal and accidental change in social norms, but by a concerted effort of government and individuals.
So it's not so much blaming Google, as to say that with Google's money, intelligence, and influence that we can be putting this "remnant inventory" to socially higher causes, rather than try to collect a pittance on it by hawking scams and get-rich-quick schemes.
Yeah, a lot of people will choose a Big Mac over a salad, and a lot of people will scarf down fried chicken before a sandwich - that doesn't make their choices optimal, either for themselves or for society at large.
You're also discounting the enormous effect policy has. We've gone from a nation of chain-smokers to one where I don't have to walk through clouds of smoke to get from A to B, and this has largely been driven not by some phenomenal and accidental change in social norms, but by a concerted effort of government and individuals.
So it's not so much blaming Google, as to say that with Google's money, intelligence, and influence that we can be putting this "remnant inventory" to socially higher causes, rather than try to collect a pittance on it by hawking scams and get-rich-quick schemes.
Yes, government policy has a huge effect, for one it created the nation of chain smokers.
What Google does is monetize the products of our school system, the school system produces mindless consumers incapable of producing on their own. Google connects these dependents of the state to the people who can produce the goods they need to live.
If you want to change what Google promotes simply transform the school system into an education system predicated upon critical and independent thought. By transforming the school system you'll have solved a whole host of social problems, the least of which will be ads hawking get rich quick schemes.
What Google does is monetize the products of our school system, the school system produces mindless consumers incapable of producing on their own. Google connects these dependents of the state to the people who can produce the goods they need to live.
If you want to change what Google promotes simply transform the school system into an education system predicated upon critical and independent thought. By transforming the school system you'll have solved a whole host of social problems, the least of which will be ads hawking get rich quick schemes.
I'm in favor of a lot of ways to fix this problem. What I cannot abide is the whole "people are stupid and want stupid things, I'm just fulfilling their stupid demands" excuse.
What hope does this world have when its best and brightest are content with swindling money out of the ill-informed?
What hope does this world have when its best and brightest are content with swindling money out of the ill-informed?
None, whatsoever. But what alternative do the "best and the brightest" have? After all, in order to keep being "the best and the brightest" they do need to pay rent (and have an occasional steak dinner).
What value is there in educating if one can simply purchase social capital when one needs it?
Exhibit A: http://www.facebook.com/BPTeamUSA
Exhibit B: http://www.altria.com/en/cms/Responsibility/investing-in-com...
What value is there in educating if one can simply purchase social capital when one needs it?
Exhibit A: http://www.facebook.com/BPTeamUSA
Exhibit B: http://www.altria.com/en/cms/Responsibility/investing-in-com...
> "After all, in order to keep being "the best and the brightest" they do need to pay rent (and have an occasional steak dinner)."
Plenty of people pay rent and eat well and aren't complicit in scams and get-rich-quick schemes. Plenty of people have jobs that pay well and don't pander to the lowest common denominator and reinforce ignorance...
Plenty of people pay rent and eat well and aren't complicit in scams and get-rich-quick schemes. Plenty of people have jobs that pay well and don't pander to the lowest common denominator and reinforce ignorance...
If you think I'm advocating pandering to the lowest common denominator and reinforcing ignorance, you are mistaken.
I am pointing out the fact that within a system of social organization which allows "material capital" to be easily convertible to "social capital" this type of behavior will always exist. Moreover, in most cases it will be a superior social/business strategy.
Consider a hypothetical example. Evil Company X can do a "socially harmful" thing Y and make Z dollars or a "socially beneficial" thing W and make V dollars. Well, if Z - [the cost of whitewashing] > V, why not do it?
Furthermore, should the CEO of ECX opt to do V and forego greater profits, investors of X would be well-justified to vote for his removal at the subsequent board meeting. After all, the CEO was not representing THEIR best interests...
I am pointing out the fact that within a system of social organization which allows "material capital" to be easily convertible to "social capital" this type of behavior will always exist. Moreover, in most cases it will be a superior social/business strategy.
Consider a hypothetical example. Evil Company X can do a "socially harmful" thing Y and make Z dollars or a "socially beneficial" thing W and make V dollars. Well, if Z - [the cost of whitewashing] > V, why not do it?
Furthermore, should the CEO of ECX opt to do V and forego greater profits, investors of X would be well-justified to vote for his removal at the subsequent board meeting. After all, the CEO was not representing THEIR best interests...
Interesting question: for younger folks who weren't aware of the Altria name change, does anyone think Altria is not a criminal enterprise?
What does criminal enterprise even mean?
Mostly everyone is a criminal, if you've gotten a city parking ticket you're a criminal.
If you've let your meter run out but didn't get caught it's still criminal. Didn't wear your seatbelt? Criminal.
Were you having a bad day but when you talked to the city clerk you told them it was going well? You're a criminal.
Altria sells a product that is harmful to people's health while providing other benefits, like most other products including car manufactures, coffee shops, etc.
Does Altria break a criminal statute? It's pretty much inevitable that they do.
Would I characterize them as a criminal enterprise? No.
Some people are far more concerned about living life than prolonging death. If you don't like cigarettes don't smoke.
Mostly everyone is a criminal, if you've gotten a city parking ticket you're a criminal.
If you've let your meter run out but didn't get caught it's still criminal. Didn't wear your seatbelt? Criminal.
Were you having a bad day but when you talked to the city clerk you told them it was going well? You're a criminal.
Altria sells a product that is harmful to people's health while providing other benefits, like most other products including car manufactures, coffee shops, etc.
Does Altria break a criminal statute? It's pretty much inevitable that they do.
Would I characterize them as a criminal enterprise? No.
Some people are far more concerned about living life than prolonging death. If you don't like cigarettes don't smoke.
I find this really interesting. The term "ill-informed" is often used as a dramatic simplification for "someone who has different views than I do" or "someone who makes poor choices".
Here: I'm a smoker. Do I know that smoking is terrible for me? Yes, absolutely. Is there any possible way to make a case that I'm "ill-informed" about the effects of tobacco? Not at all. And yet, I live with the fact that, every day, I choose to smoke tobacco. Yes, I'm addicted to it, and yes, I'm going to quit smoking it (because I know it's terrible for me), but... I'm not quitting today :)
Here: I'm a smoker. Do I know that smoking is terrible for me? Yes, absolutely. Is there any possible way to make a case that I'm "ill-informed" about the effects of tobacco? Not at all. And yet, I live with the fact that, every day, I choose to smoke tobacco. Yes, I'm addicted to it, and yes, I'm going to quit smoking it (because I know it's terrible for me), but... I'm not quitting today :)
>It's not Google's fault that people want to play games //
In the same way it's not the drug dealers fault that people [who they actively sought to get addicted] want to buy drugs [in excesses that will most likely see them to an early grave].
In the same way it's not the drug dealers fault that people [who they actively sought to get addicted] want to buy drugs [in excesses that will most likely see them to an early grave].
If you ask me for help with your homework, I could recommend a relevant and informative documentary I happen to know about, or I could tell you to forget your homework and play a game, because I'm getting a commission from the games company.
Clearly you are responsible for taking my advice or not, but am I not also responsible for the choices I offer you?
Clearly you are responsible for taking my advice or not, but am I not also responsible for the choices I offer you?
I dunno. Am I paying you for your advice or are am I getting it for free?
What right or expectation do I have to assume that you're giving me good homework advice?
Are you a friend of mine? Am I relying upon my past experience?
If I'm not paying you, you're not a friend of mine, you're just some marketer paying sites to show your ads... I expect no real value from them.
I almost never click on Google Ads embedded in web pages, so I don't understand the blame game going on. Some suckers do click on them. They pay for free web content. Who am I do bite the hand that feeds us for free?
What right or expectation do I have to assume that you're giving me good homework advice?
Are you a friend of mine? Am I relying upon my past experience?
If I'm not paying you, you're not a friend of mine, you're just some marketer paying sites to show your ads... I expect no real value from them.
I almost never click on Google Ads embedded in web pages, so I don't understand the blame game going on. Some suckers do click on them. They pay for free web content. Who am I do bite the hand that feeds us for free?
It sounds like you live in a world where people only take responsibility for the consequences of their actions if they are paid to do so.
I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean by "take responsibility".
I'm reacting mostly to those two words since they have legal ramifications.
You tell me what you mean by "take responsibility", and I'll tell you whether or not I think that there should be a business or binding legal relationship before someone should be compelled to "take responsibility".
I'm reacting mostly to those two words since they have legal ramifications.
You tell me what you mean by "take responsibility", and I'll tell you whether or not I think that there should be a business or binding legal relationship before someone should be compelled to "take responsibility".
Is there no room in your worldview for values that aren't
imposed by force?
Of course. Quite the contrary, I believe that very few of your worldview values should need to be imposed by force.
That's really a change of subject, though. You said "take responsibility". In our society today, "take responsibility" has connotations, mostly legal. Or the next line of reasoning is if people should "take responsibility", then the government should enforce it with laws and police action.
Yesterday, a married couple emailed me for advice on a condo that they're looking to purchase where I just bought one. I don't know them. I don't owe them anything. I don't even feel any social pressure since it's a vacation area and I likely will never meet or see them. However, I took about 30 minutes to write up a lot of details on what I had experienced in my purchase and gave them my best advice I had.
What I resent is someone telling me that I had some real "responsibility" to do so. I did it because I'm a friendly person and I wanted to. Not because I had someone else's tyrannical view of enforced egalitarianism.
My reasoning all ties back to Google. They have a responsibility to their shareholders. They have a responsibility to keep the contracts that they enter. Their responsibility to their shareholders might include showing useful dinosaur information in their AdWords to someone researching dinosaurs because they want to look clueful. They have no moral responsibility to do so. They have no legal responsibility to do so.
That's why I asked you. What do you mean by "take responsibility"?
That's really a change of subject, though. You said "take responsibility". In our society today, "take responsibility" has connotations, mostly legal. Or the next line of reasoning is if people should "take responsibility", then the government should enforce it with laws and police action.
Yesterday, a married couple emailed me for advice on a condo that they're looking to purchase where I just bought one. I don't know them. I don't owe them anything. I don't even feel any social pressure since it's a vacation area and I likely will never meet or see them. However, I took about 30 minutes to write up a lot of details on what I had experienced in my purchase and gave them my best advice I had.
What I resent is someone telling me that I had some real "responsibility" to do so. I did it because I'm a friendly person and I wanted to. Not because I had someone else's tyrannical view of enforced egalitarianism.
My reasoning all ties back to Google. They have a responsibility to their shareholders. They have a responsibility to keep the contracts that they enter. Their responsibility to their shareholders might include showing useful dinosaur information in their AdWords to someone researching dinosaurs because they want to look clueful. They have no moral responsibility to do so. They have no legal responsibility to do so.
That's why I asked you. What do you mean by "take responsibility"?
Aka the real world.
Google ads stink? Turn on kiosk mode and load wikipedia before letting your kid on the computer. Or just download some quality content and unplug the network cable, which is probably the best idea anyway.
Google ads stink? Turn on kiosk mode and load wikipedia before letting your kid on the computer. Or just download some quality content and unplug the network cable, which is probably the best idea anyway.
Doesn't anyone you know care about anything they aren't paid to care about?
People have been complaining that society will turn into "Idiocracy" (or similar) for generations.
The Roman satirist Jeuvanal complained (in 100 CE) that modern people only cared for "bread and circuses" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bread_and_Circuses
The Roman satirist Jeuvanal complained (in 100 CE) that modern people only cared for "bread and circuses" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bread_and_Circuses
As both your link and the broader scope of European history indicate, Roman society of 100 CE was in fact in the midst of a many-generations-long decline into irrelevance, so this is perhaps an unintentionally apt citation.
Well that depends. Comparing Europe now and 100, 250, 500, 1000, 1500, 2000 years ago makes now appear much better on various metrics: political & military stability, human rights, women's rights, life expantency, death from disease and plague, famine, social equality, the wealth of the lower 50% of the population, gay rights, racism, manual labour, religious toleration, etc. etc.
As tlogan's response notes, the distinction to draw in judging 100CE-era commentary is not between Europe in 100CE and now, but rather between Europe in 100CE and the ensuing decades and centuries, which demonstrated that the naysayers of 100CE Europe were completely justified.
That things then swung back upward again is cold comfort to the ancient Romans and does not demonstrate that things could not swing downward for our civilization.
That things then swung back upward again is cold comfort to the ancient Romans and does not demonstrate that things could not swing downward for our civilization.
The history goes in waves...
The great Roman culture was in generational long decline and eventually replaced by "Dark ages". "Idiocracy" is basically something like "Dark ages".
An important addition to your list of items that makes inventory more valuable:
2B) Purchasing intent for a commodity item where the inventory seller can extract a high percentage of the profit.
Apple isn't going to bid up the price of an ad that erodes their profit too much because, at the end of the day, they're the only source of iPhones.
Your local florist will compete against the guy across the street to buy that add even if nearly all the profit goes away because he can't easily differentiate his product.
2B) Purchasing intent for a commodity item where the inventory seller can extract a high percentage of the profit.
Apple isn't going to bid up the price of an ad that erodes their profit too much because, at the end of the day, they're the only source of iPhones.
Your local florist will compete against the guy across the street to buy that add even if nearly all the profit goes away because he can't easily differentiate his product.
So that's what a page looks like without Adblock. Interesting.
3 months ago I'd say you're mad for sawing the branch you sit on, taking bread away from content providers whose content you consume. I have content sites myself that rely on ads, I believed in this but my internet experience got increasingly frustrating within last year for some reason - Flash popover or whatever you call them which you can't close, disturbing images of old women tearing their skin as in this article, google ads sneaked into content or navigation in hopes of me mistakingly clicking them.
I've tried readability next, clicking "read now" in my chrome extension on every interesting article..but I'm now with Adblock, at least 3 years later than all my techie friends.
I'll silently consume my purified internet now, thanks.
I've tried readability next, clicking "read now" in my chrome extension on every interesting article..but I'm now with Adblock, at least 3 years later than all my techie friends.
I'll silently consume my purified internet now, thanks.
For many of us, our entire career eventually boils down to getting people to click on ads. Sit down and think about your product:
- Are you chasing the hockey stick, making a free product? You're getting paid to create an ad base that will focus on ads.
- Are you a content provider? A blog? You're getting paid for page hits to generate ad revenue.
- Perhaps you're a recommendation engine that makes money on Amazon referrals. Ditto.
- Are you chasing the hockey stick, making a free product? You're getting paid to create an ad base that will focus on ads.
- Are you a content provider? A blog? You're getting paid for page hits to generate ad revenue.
- Perhaps you're a recommendation engine that makes money on Amazon referrals. Ditto.
I'm actually looking forward to the day when micro-transactions become easy and friction-less and we move onto paywalls. I'd love to support sites with content by paying $0.02 per article.
I hate seeing ads, and I hate my websites relying on ads for revenue. My parents have many times clicked on ads accidentally thinking it was the content they want. The last thing I need to is to clear out their laptop from endless toolbars and viruses so I've installed ad blocker on all of our computers.
It's gotten out of control. Even legit websites have started taking on questionable ad inventory. The kind that has a download button and tries to trick you. The kind that looks like thumbnails for the software that you're trying to read about. Or those annoying video ads that play automatically.
I'm actually looking forward to the day when I can say "Goodbye and good riddance, advertising killed itself."
I hate seeing ads, and I hate my websites relying on ads for revenue. My parents have many times clicked on ads accidentally thinking it was the content they want. The last thing I need to is to clear out their laptop from endless toolbars and viruses so I've installed ad blocker on all of our computers.
It's gotten out of control. Even legit websites have started taking on questionable ad inventory. The kind that has a download button and tries to trick you. The kind that looks like thumbnails for the software that you're trying to read about. Or those annoying video ads that play automatically.
I'm actually looking forward to the day when I can say "Goodbye and good riddance, advertising killed itself."
Seriously: like throwing some coins in the guitar box of the musician you hear in the subway whose melody really sets your mood straight for the day!
The webmaster of physorg.com made you sad today.
I don't get mad at Toyota when an inattentive Prius driver nearly sideswipes me in traffic.
I don't get mad at Toyota when an inattentive Prius driver nearly sideswipes me in traffic.
I think that even worse are the fake download buttons served with free software that lead users to adware:
http://jakepoz.com/why_do_google_ads_point_to_adware.html
http://jakepoz.com/why_do_google_ads_point_to_adware.html
I get the authors point, and yes... it is indeed sad that "play games" are the most profitable types of ads. And stupid weight loss ones, and look younger, and hot women in my area.
It might be because those specific industries see the most value in online ads, since they can tie a click to a sale end-to-end and can justify spending $1 to make $1.01.
Large multi-nationals who dominate TV advertising (Beer companies, car companies, restaurants, groceries, consumer products, things you have to go to a store to buy) have a harder time spending that $1 since it's a lot harder to track.
It might be because those specific industries see the most value in online ads, since they can tie a click to a sale end-to-end and can justify spending $1 to make $1.01.
Large multi-nationals who dominate TV advertising (Beer companies, car companies, restaurants, groceries, consumer products, things you have to go to a store to buy) have a harder time spending that $1 since it's a lot harder to track.
It's likely not a profitable ad at all -- that's a google "house" ad for a google product, which means they have nothing paid to show.
Advertising makes me sad. I don't care about how good or bad algorithms are and how well the ads match the context or my personal interests.
If any company tries to sell me something via advertisements, I walk away. It's anti-communication that assumes I'm an idiot.
If any company tries to sell me something via advertisements, I walk away. It's anti-communication that assumes I'm an idiot.
The web is only usable with ad-blocking software.
Many ads are garbage for the soul. You know, the sort that imply that you should have this lifestyle, or need to look a certain way. I respect users too much to subject them to it. I'll probably never become rich, but, at least I have my integrity.
Many ads are garbage for the soul. You know, the sort that imply that you should have this lifestyle, or need to look a certain way. I respect users too much to subject them to it. I'll probably never become rich, but, at least I have my integrity.
Do you remember the days when they had "punch the monkey" ads? This is progress in plain advertising. Also, it's the responsibility of the website owner to be smart. He/she could have spent the effort in finding dinosaur book publishers, but apparently they took the lazy route. As well, the web designer didn't think the ad aspect through -- it's an "oops" on their part. It's not greed, it's poor execution.
I'm surprised no one has mentioned that AdWords can target users and offer them ads based on what they think they might want. They're not always contextual.
Do you like to play games Reg?
Do you like to play games Reg?
This is a very interesting point, thank you. So here’s a thought experiment: I look at this article about dinosaurs, and Google shows me an ad about mountain bike holidays.
Great timing, Spring is looming and I am making plans for Summer (Google knows this from watching my search history or annual credit card spend on travel.) It’s late afternoon, when I historically am distractible (witness reading about dinosaurs during my work day. And I ride quite a bit (easy to figure out when you’re Google).
I might be quite likely to click an ad for Sacred Rides (Free plug for Mike’s business!). But I would still feel sad that at the moment when I was reading something educational, I was lured away to think about something else.
I don’t know if Google can come up with a way to make quadrillions of dollars and to keep me from being sad. Maybe my feelings are simply a cost of doing business, or maybe what I want is impossible. But I think my sadness is independent of the attraction the ad holds for me personally. My issue is with the relationship between the ad and the content.
Great timing, Spring is looming and I am making plans for Summer (Google knows this from watching my search history or annual credit card spend on travel.) It’s late afternoon, when I historically am distractible (witness reading about dinosaurs during my work day. And I ride quite a bit (easy to figure out when you’re Google).
I might be quite likely to click an ad for Sacred Rides (Free plug for Mike’s business!). But I would still feel sad that at the moment when I was reading something educational, I was lured away to think about something else.
I don’t know if Google can come up with a way to make quadrillions of dollars and to keep me from being sad. Maybe my feelings are simply a cost of doing business, or maybe what I want is impossible. But I think my sadness is independent of the attraction the ad holds for me personally. My issue is with the relationship between the ad and the content.
Increasingly, it seems, success requires immunity to distraction. Even as a kid.
http://paulgraham.com/addiction.html
http://paulgraham.com/addiction.html
I don’t know if Google can come up with a way to make quadrillions of dollars and to keep me from being sad. Maybe my feelings are simply a cost of doing business, or maybe what I want is impossible. But I think my sadness is independent of the attraction the ad holds for me personally. My issue is with the relationship between the ad and the content.
I don't think there can be another way. Advertising necessarily extracts value out of your attention, while simultaneously devaluing your browsing/watching/listening/driving/etc experience. Attention is a (mostly) zero-zum game.
If Google could find a way to put subliminal advertising on the web (and those glasses would sure be a pretty badass way to go about it), maybe it wouldn't make you as sad?
I don't think there can be another way. Advertising necessarily extracts value out of your attention, while simultaneously devaluing your browsing/watching/listening/driving/etc experience. Attention is a (mostly) zero-zum game.
If Google could find a way to put subliminal advertising on the web (and those glasses would sure be a pretty badass way to go about it), maybe it wouldn't make you as sad?
> Advertising necessarily extracts value out of your attention, while simultaneously devaluing your browsing/watching/listening/driving/etc experience.
While it it usually, maybe even almost always, does, I don't think advertising is required to be a distraction.
If I'm searching for information on a product, say, a pair of headphones for my wife or a diet for myself, and I see ads for headphones or diet books, then that advertising can be very beneficial.
The problem comes when, like in the article at hand, there's a product or service, totally unrelated to what I'm searching for, that's being injected in my attention stream.
Arguably, Google's incredible financial success is founded on making that information infinitesimally more likely to be useful to the reader compared to, e.g., prime-time television.
While it it usually, maybe even almost always, does, I don't think advertising is required to be a distraction.
If I'm searching for information on a product, say, a pair of headphones for my wife or a diet for myself, and I see ads for headphones or diet books, then that advertising can be very beneficial.
The problem comes when, like in the article at hand, there's a product or service, totally unrelated to what I'm searching for, that's being injected in my attention stream.
Arguably, Google's incredible financial success is founded on making that information infinitesimally more likely to be useful to the reader compared to, e.g., prime-time television.
> Google knows this from watching my search history or annual credit card spend on travel
Your search history, sure, but I don't think that Google can see credit-card spending ….
Your search history, sure, but I don't think that Google can see credit-card spending ….
Maybe google knows that you are personally interested in social games? Or perhaps they're just trying to reach people who are on the internet right now.
Anyway, point is, the page isn't the only signal used for ad targeting; you (and your search history) are another, as is the current time. As well as a variety of other things, I'm sure (I have no direct knowledge of google's ad targeting).
I visited the page myself, and got an ad for the galaxy nexus.
I do agree that the placement of the ad, which makes it look like part of the content, is pretty crummy. As are the ads about e-cigarettes and penny stocks and car insurance.
Anyway, point is, the page isn't the only signal used for ad targeting; you (and your search history) are another, as is the current time. As well as a variety of other things, I'm sure (I have no direct knowledge of google's ad targeting).
I visited the page myself, and got an ad for the galaxy nexus.
I do agree that the placement of the ad, which makes it look like part of the content, is pretty crummy. As are the ads about e-cigarettes and penny stocks and car insurance.
I get a lot of nexus ads, but Google knows I bought one months back so it is wasted inventory...
Why blame google? The problems here are: 1) the publisher has chosen to embed ad tags within editorial content; 2) the editorial content is so worthless that google can only show a house ad.
>the editorial content is so worthless
I think it's important to qualify this statement. Worthless to who? Google's ad bots? Perhaps. There's no obvious ad category that relates to dinosaurs.
But just from the snippet the OP included in his screenshot, it is clear the content is not mindless drivel and is actually worth reading (to some people).
I think it's important to qualify this statement. Worthless to who? Google's ad bots? Perhaps. There's no obvious ad category that relates to dinosaurs.
But just from the snippet the OP included in his screenshot, it is clear the content is not mindless drivel and is actually worth reading (to some people).
The publishers chose that he wants to show ads in combination with that content. Apparently it is worthless to ads. What solution would you propose?
I can't think of many commercial products that would benefit from dinosaur associations, except movies, toys and games...
I can't think of many commercial products that would benefit from dinosaur associations, except movies, toys and games...
"We take a generation of incredibly smart people who have been rigorously trained to deliver amazing code, running on a massive computing engine, and when confronted with a human being trying to learn something, they try to distract him with games."
The same can be said for Wall Street in the past 2 decades. Generations of top graduates have gone not to medicine, not to law, not to real business, but to Wall St. where they create leveraged financial products and led the economy to the 2008-9 Financial Collapse.
The same can be said for Wall Street in the past 2 decades. Generations of top graduates have gone not to medicine, not to law, not to real business, but to Wall St. where they create leveraged financial products and led the economy to the 2008-9 Financial Collapse.
When I see misplaced advertising like this, I just remember that it's not Google's fault; they didn't consciously make the decision that dinosaurs are childish/recreational fantasies that should be associated with gaming. It's the fault of dinosaur's representation today across the entire internet. Google's bots picked up that correlation mechanically, so while it's unfortunate that they propagate stereotypes like this further, it's not the root cause.
I'm very interested in the point made regarding interactive children's education. High schools across the country seem to think that giving students iPads to use as text books is a good idea. I think that if I was in high school and I had an iPad, I'd be surfing the web the entire time I was in class. I'm certain that's what the next generation will be doing if high schools do indeed end up going that route.
And then some entrepreneur will realize this problem, and sell a solution that prevents students from surfing the web while in class.
I never got all the fuss about digitizing education, because it seems like the biggest downside is 'distractions.' Even if there is no way to prevent distractions, are digital textbooks not worth the improvement in costs, accessibility, and breadth (and type) of information?
I never got all the fuss about digitizing education, because it seems like the biggest downside is 'distractions.' Even if there is no way to prevent distractions, are digital textbooks not worth the improvement in costs, accessibility, and breadth (and type) of information?
It's hard to estimate the power of distraction for students. Having interactive textbooks would be really awesome, but what does it matter if kids are just playing Angry Birds instead? Also the cost benefits aren't really all that great. Schools typically reuse textbooks and iPads are very expensive and are more prone to damage.
From my own experience, it seems that Google tests different contextual content from time to time. They have an algorithm that is supposed to automatically adjust and optimize the ads that get the most click throughs. Perhaps gaming related content works well on that site for some weird reason.
The "sad" part, if anything, is that the publisher decided to place the ad there. In my opinion, that is too misleading.
The "sad" part, if anything, is that the publisher decided to place the ad there. In my opinion, that is too misleading.
Someone finally noticed that the Internet replicates the internal chatter of the mind. The web is designed to prey on human weakness, to encourage wilfing through the Internet, and to discourage learning and meditation. If our machines are to help us realize our potential, we must teach our machines to meditate. We must quiet their computations.
The web ism't designed this way - advertising companies make it this way.
Directing this as a criticism of Google (or other advertisers) is a little bit misplaced; the site designer has a lot of control over where ads appear and how they look. Nobody but physorg.com decided that a good place for an ad was right in the middle of their content like that, and they chose the colors, size and style to match as well.
I'm saddened that you think games are a bad thing. While there are certainly crappy games, I think I owe part of the survival of my childhood to computer games, and I rank them as the highest possible form of art and expression. At least they have the potential for it.
Also, making the ad look like the text is the doing of the site owner. There are people who will recommend you do that to increase click rates, but I don't think Google actively promotes that strategy.
The placement of the ad is also by the site owner. For my own site I chose to keep ads to the side bar. Admittedly Google keeps telling me that I could put more ads on my site, but I choose not to.
There is also perhaps an economics problem: perhaps most schools, being funded by public money, have no money for ads. What entities in the education market would spend big bucks on dinosaur ads? How can you make big money with dinosaurs?
Also, making the ad look like the text is the doing of the site owner. There are people who will recommend you do that to increase click rates, but I don't think Google actively promotes that strategy.
The placement of the ad is also by the site owner. For my own site I chose to keep ads to the side bar. Admittedly Google keeps telling me that I could put more ads on my site, but I choose not to.
There is also perhaps an economics problem: perhaps most schools, being funded by public money, have no money for ads. What entities in the education market would spend big bucks on dinosaur ads? How can you make big money with dinosaurs?
"Someone other than Google is involved in deciding that stock market scams and anti-aging scams and auction site scams are the best way to extract value from my curiosity about dinosaurs."
Those clicks are essentially auctioned off so that someone is quite simply the market. The market, when it comes to online advertising, is largely benevolent. Tons of businesses are built on the fact that Google allows those to buy traffic who can benefit from it the most. The overall wealth creation of such a system is massive, far beyond the wealth created for Google.
Lots of people have jobs because a system exists that allows crappy game ads to interrupt your dinosaur article. it sucks (and the physorg site is kinda shitty for formatting it to look like a headline) but overall the system is a great thing.
Those clicks are essentially auctioned off so that someone is quite simply the market. The market, when it comes to online advertising, is largely benevolent. Tons of businesses are built on the fact that Google allows those to buy traffic who can benefit from it the most. The overall wealth creation of such a system is massive, far beyond the wealth created for Google.
Lots of people have jobs because a system exists that allows crappy game ads to interrupt your dinosaur article. it sucks (and the physorg site is kinda shitty for formatting it to look like a headline) but overall the system is a great thing.
For me, this site shows an ad about wine - which makes sense since I work for a company that deals in epicurean goods, with our primary product on our site being wine. Based on my browsing habits, it is an appropriate ad to show to me, from a user analysis point of view. Does it suck that it's not related to the article - perhaps - but that's not what will make the most money. Just because you are reading a single article pertaining to dinosaurs, doesn't mean you have a history of being interested in dinosaurs.
The play games ad could be remnant inventory as others pointed out, it could be based on your usage analysis (do you play a lot of games? or share a computer with someone who does?), or lack there of if you have circumvented ways that Google can snoop on/analyze you.
The play games ad could be remnant inventory as others pointed out, it could be based on your usage analysis (do you play a lot of games? or share a computer with someone who does?), or lack there of if you have circumvented ways that Google can snoop on/analyze you.
The text ad is the only one served on that page by Google, if you go and look at the actual page the rest are served by AdBlade or Tribal Fusion. I feel like it's pretty misleading to complain about those ads as if they all came from the same company.
The article is quite clear on the fact that the other ads need not be coming from Google.
It wasn't the impression I got from reading it, the text leading into the slideshow is:
>Between them, physorg.com and Google value money, and that’s it. > > There’s more on the same page, of course:
Which I felt kind of set the tone that they were Google related.
FWIW, I think that the aging secret, penny stock and money ads are scammy as hell and I think the internet would be better off without the bottom feeding ads that take advantage of people's ignorance or insecurities.
The Google+ ad, while poorly targeted to the content of the page, might actually be targeted towards you (I'm not sure that's possible though). In my case I get text ads for elbow tendonitis, probably because I've done searches for "wrist pain" and I've ended up on medical related websites recently. That and the hints they pass to adsense are:
google_hints = "animals elbow muscles";
The combination of those came up with that ad.
>Between them, physorg.com and Google value money, and that’s it. > > There’s more on the same page, of course:
Which I felt kind of set the tone that they were Google related.
FWIW, I think that the aging secret, penny stock and money ads are scammy as hell and I think the internet would be better off without the bottom feeding ads that take advantage of people's ignorance or insecurities.
The Google+ ad, while poorly targeted to the content of the page, might actually be targeted towards you (I'm not sure that's possible though). In my case I get text ads for elbow tendonitis, probably because I've done searches for "wrist pain" and I've ended up on medical related websites recently. That and the hints they pass to adsense are:
google_hints = "animals elbow muscles";
The combination of those came up with that ad.
Google Adsense provides publishers the option to show ads relevant on a user's browsing history (via tracking cookies) as well as contextual ads. Since Google's goal is to make both the publisher and the advertiser more money, Google will choose to show whatever it has found to be more profitable.
On top of that, if Google does not have ad fill, such as in the case of articles about dinosaurs, it will sometimes advertise its own products (which the publisher will still get paid for) instead of showing a blank spot (as some advertising companies will do.
tl;dr Google shows ads based on a visitors browsing history if it thinks it will make you more money that way.
On top of that, if Google does not have ad fill, such as in the case of articles about dinosaurs, it will sometimes advertise its own products (which the publisher will still get paid for) instead of showing a blank spot (as some advertising companies will do.
tl;dr Google shows ads based on a visitors browsing history if it thinks it will make you more money that way.
Just to note, I subconsciously skipped over the examples in the article as if they were ads -- then wondered what he was talking about for a few seconds afterward. Must be my years of kung foo internet training.
Am I really the only one who started reading this thinking the author was going to discuss the paper's claim that dinosaurs, in popular perception, have a lizardlike/reptilian, splayed stance? I've been a dinosaur nerd for years, and the only times I've heard anything about such a possibility is in discussions of old perceptions of dinosaur posture - in every modern reference (intellectual discussion or pop culture appearance) I've seen, dinosaurs are always portrayed with nothing other than a mammalian stance.
What's the alternative ?
Having content locked behind a pay-wall so even less people can access it ?
Running ads which are more relevant but don't generate enough revenue to make the site viable in the long term ?
Not having the content at all ?
Having content locked behind a pay-wall so even less people can access it ?
Running ads which are more relevant but don't generate enough revenue to make the site viable in the long term ?
Not having the content at all ?
How do you feel about the fact that certain farmers will starve if they can’t grow coca or poppies as a cash crop?
Hmm.. good point. You know this is a problem too in general. So many useless jobs and useless industries, serving little value to society, yet they are needed because they provide a living for so many people.
This is a result of too many humans on Earth. So many people are just not needed on this Earth. So we have to come up with surrogate occupations
This is a result of too many humans on Earth. So many people are just not needed on this Earth. So we have to come up with surrogate occupations
I think the problem may be less with too many humans and may be with the preoccupation of "Everybody must have a job! 9-5, Monday to Friday. No exceptions or you're a failure and the country is failing and it's all our leaders fault."
I mean really, we're heading towards more and more automation. There just aren't going to be as many jobs as there once where. Yes, we might get more programming jobs and management jobs. But not enough to replace the hundreds of jobs replaced by a few robots in a factory.
I mean really, we're heading towards more and more automation. There just aren't going to be as many jobs as there once where. Yes, we might get more programming jobs and management jobs. But not enough to replace the hundreds of jobs replaced by a few robots in a factory.
I'm glad that they can grow crops that mean they're able to afford to feed their families. I'm pretty sure they are as well.
The problem with that analogy is that 90%+ of the farmers are growing coca or poppies today. Without a viable alternative "crop" or payment mechanism on the open web, I think the net effect will be to drive all of the content which advertising is paying for today into walled gardens, like a Physorg "app".
I think the answer he was looking for is: "sad"
are you seriously invoking the war on drugs to support your point?
This post reminded me of Steve Yegge's cat pictures (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKmQW_Nkfk8). In a good way.
So who is the author blaming? He's not blaming the end user (the one that makes those ads worth the most to both google and content sites).
- Is he blaming Google for maximizing ad revenue for the content site?
- Is he blaming the content sites for wanting to maximize their own revenue on page views? (or, perhaps, for being too lazy to sell ads themselves?)
- Is he blaming the people who spend the money to get their scammy ads to show up on these sites?
Based on my reading of the article and raganwald's comment below, my understanding is he's blaming talented employees or entrepreneurs who choose to use their skills to create low-value (in societal terms, not monetary) products and services. And it seems he's not so much blaming as bemoaning.
The post struck a chord with me because I am evaluating several employment offers. The one that gives me the opportunity to work with the coolest technologies and receive the highest compensation would leave me feeling the ickiest at some level (it involves mobile ad analytics).
The post struck a chord with me because I am evaluating several employment offers. The one that gives me the opportunity to work with the coolest technologies and receive the highest compensation would leave me feeling the ickiest at some level (it involves mobile ad analytics).
Without mobile ad analytics, prices are inefficient and therefore ads are biased to the most profitable buyers, not the highest quality.
Do you have any reason to suspect that quality is more profitable?
Do you have any reason to suspect that quality is more profitable?
[deleted]
I recently appointed a legal firm. Today I saw their ad embedded as copy looking for cheap clicks via google content network. Screenshot here
http://portablepixels.com/images/google.png
Seems to me like Google are stooping to new lows. The ad makes me feel like the legal firm I have appointed are selling diet pills and Im minded to terminate my relationship with them. Cheap clicks can be costly.
Seems to me like Google are stooping to new lows. The ad makes me feel like the legal firm I have appointed are selling diet pills and Im minded to terminate my relationship with them. Cheap clicks can be costly.
I've actually had ad companies complain about banners too close too buttons in apps before. They can tell, statistically, when users are clicking something by accident rather than interest. Raganwald's screenshot seems similar to me. The web site designer chose to blend the ad into the text content and Google may not even be happy about it due to the lower quality incoming traffic on the ad.
This is covered by the Tao of Leo:
http://justinmchase.com/2012/02/20/tao-of-leo-3/
"For each 2x improvement in performance we get from Moore’s law, half will be spent on showing better advertisements, and the other half will be spent on emulating legacy platforms."
"For each 2x improvement in performance we get from Moore’s law, half will be spent on showing better advertisements, and the other half will be spent on emulating legacy platforms."
Using Readable (http://readable.tastefulwords.com/) it looks great: http://www.blueatlas.com/images/readable.png
Good job Readable
Full Disclosure: I have no affiliation with Readable.
Good job Readable
Full Disclosure: I have no affiliation with Readable.
The worse thing is that Google lets ads like the "look younger" one buy time. They offer a sample to try for free, but if you don't return it they sign you up for a year's subscription for a $100 a month and you also get charged for the "free" sample. Simple ripoff.
The look and feel of the ad is publisher's responsibility. Can't blame Google for that. Rest, Google gets the blame. Before I get down to that, however, I would be suspicious of the veracity of a publisher who tries to blend the ad and the content so closely.
I get ads on nanotechnology and Siemens. Maybe the Google Ad machine works different for each person. Oddly too, a search for Rick Santorum leads to Republican primary results fist and then ricksantorum.com second, but, then again, this is my work computer ;)
Another day of "5-minute Google Hate Sessions"?
Google leaves webmasters the freedom to customize and place ads however they want. Physorg.com opted for the scumbag strategy of mixing ads and content, so it's 100% their fault.
Plus, the entire waxing lyrical about kids being fed ads for games is simply ignorant: he sees those ads because his advertising profile matches those interests, regardless of the page is looking at in this particular moment. A kid interested in dinosaurs might see ads for plastic dinosaurs or paid trips to natural history museums.
Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised to learn Facebook has resumed his paid mud-slinging campaign, these days people are clutching at the smallest straws just to badmouth Google.
Plus, the entire waxing lyrical about kids being fed ads for games is simply ignorant: he sees those ads because his advertising profile matches those interests, regardless of the page is looking at in this particular moment. A kid interested in dinosaurs might see ads for plastic dinosaurs or paid trips to natural history museums.
Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised to learn Facebook has resumed his paid mud-slinging campaign, these days people are clutching at the smallest straws just to badmouth Google.
Install AdBlock Plus. Solved. Not that big of a deal, huh?
I see that I somehow have made the entirely wrong point. I didn’t say that it’s sad that I have to wade through ads. As it happens, I have this “reader” thingie in Safari, which solves the ad problem and the readability problem in one click or keypress.
The thing I was trying to say that makes me sad is that there is a generation of smart people toiling away with the power of what may be the world’s biggest computing infrastructure, all to put those ads on the page.
I am lamenting the waste of people and resources, not the waste of my time.
The thing I was trying to say that makes me sad is that there is a generation of smart people toiling away with the power of what may be the world’s biggest computing infrastructure, all to put those ads on the page.
I am lamenting the waste of people and resources, not the waste of my time.
It's the tragedy of the commons, writ large. "What's wrong with just showing one gaming ad to a precocious dinosaur-loving kid, she'll be able to concentrate on her studies later. Oh, maybe one more ad, maybe one more, maybe one more..."
I don't know how exactly people got the wrong idea from your article, it's certainly not on you. I definitely understood the extension of the "I see the greatest minds of my generation showing ads" idea from a few months ago. Do you think it's a fad? I hope it is. I'd love to see more people trying their hand at making things worth paying for. It's flip but any more I get this Kanye West lyric stuck in my head reading about startups: "Do anybody make real shit anymore?"
Your point was pretty clear. It would be interesting to see a more diverse and direct and relevant advertising world, exactly like you say, present actual dinosaur book or dvd discount offers or similar.
What we see really is sad, it's advertising "Games". Not a game, not something wonderful, but the general timewasting activity of any game, when it could be specific and direct and relevant.
What we see really is sad, it's advertising "Games". Not a game, not something wonderful, but the general timewasting activity of any game, when it could be specific and direct and relevant.
So.. you're sad because of the Ad industry, when there's A LOT more money in the military industry being thrown away? I mean, if you want to be sad about something, choose your argument subject more carefully..
These aren't mutually exclusive things, and his argument could be extended to the military industry as well. It's just a reflection on his part based on an experience he had.
Yeah, except that I'm fairly sure that a large percentage of web users don't even know their browser might support plugins, let alone that AdBlock exists.
Exactly. And those same users are the most likely to not be able to distinguish a targeted ad from actual content. You can say "this isn't a problem because it doesn't affect me". It's still a deceptive, slimey business practice that effectively tricks a certain percentage of people. But that's what makes a buck.
I'm not necessarily blaming any one company, profit would have inevitably led to this. I just agree with the author that this IS sad.
I'm not necessarily blaming any one company, profit would have inevitably led to this. I just agree with the author that this IS sad.
[deleted]
AHAHAHAHA HE SAID VALUES falls out of chair
Americans don't have those anymore, silly. We have money, and to hell with everything else.
Edit, for those who don't get it: Consider what you do at work and whose benefit you do it for. If you're in the states, your job is to make money for shareholders and/or investors, period. You are not building a product, you are driving inequality. Always keep this in mind in any industry to understand "business decisions" and politics, because it's all the same game; "I want to be better than those people"
This attitude is literally destroying our planet.
Americans don't have those anymore, silly. We have money, and to hell with everything else.
Edit, for those who don't get it: Consider what you do at work and whose benefit you do it for. If you're in the states, your job is to make money for shareholders and/or investors, period. You are not building a product, you are driving inequality. Always keep this in mind in any industry to understand "business decisions" and politics, because it's all the same game; "I want to be better than those people"
This attitude is literally destroying our planet.
I'm all for that mechanism that would distribute a fixed amound say 5 USD amongst the websites I browsed in that month so they could run without ads.
Heh. That's funny. when i go to those sites, i don't even see the ads. That's why I block facebook connect, google plus, and a raft of other sites.
Why doesn't Google offer some across-the-board AdSense subscription-- $10 a month to never see a single "Ads by Google"?
"Nice browser yous gots there... would be a shame if something were to happen to it, eh? Like if some ads was to get put on the pages... 10 bucks a month, me and my boys 'take care of' that for yous". The Google Protection Racket
To elaborate on this great point:
Say google gives you the option to pay $10/mo and not see adsense ads. Say a lot of people love that option and take advantage of it. Ad inventory goes down. Cost of ads goes up. Google looks at the price of an ad it could be showing you and goes, "why am I charging just $10?" Price of not seeing ads goes up, or even becomes its own auction.
This is how you can end up in a protection racket without meaning to.
Say google gives you the option to pay $10/mo and not see adsense ads. Say a lot of people love that option and take advantage of it. Ad inventory goes down. Cost of ads goes up. Google looks at the price of an ad it could be showing you and goes, "why am I charging just $10?" Price of not seeing ads goes up, or even becomes its own auction.
This is how you can end up in a protection racket without meaning to.
What makes it qualitatively different from typical subscription-or-ad-supported services?
I would be a little put off if Google were to sell ads, then turn around and sell the opportunity to never see those ads. Seems wrong, like they're saying to the advertisers "Oh sure, we'll get your great ads out right away, all of our customers will see them!" and then saying to the rest of us, "If you're sick of those annoying ads (which we put up), just pay us and we'll make them go away!"
See also:
AB+
Ghostery
Priv3
RequestPolicy
Noscript
Combine all this and the web is almost useful again.
Combine all this and the web is almost useful again.
Because AdBlock is free?
That sounds a lot like a protection racket to me. "Pay us and you won't have to worry about our Ads.". I don't like the idea of paying someone to NOT do something.
My guess is the value of you seeing the ads is probably worth more to them than whatever you're willing to pay to stop seeing them.
Furthermore, Google often encourages publishers to theme their ads so that they blend into the content.
This is a common theme I see, often with respect to Zynga.
People want things. Some people want things that other people think they shouldn't want (games, drugs, sex, whatever).
Some people get mad (or in this case, sad) when someone provides a thing they think people shouldn't want to people who want it.
People want things. Some people want things that other people think they shouldn't want (games, drugs, sex, whatever).
Some people get mad (or in this case, sad) when someone provides a thing they think people shouldn't want to people who want it.
Or to put it in a word, they have “morals.” And when they talk about it, they are ”moralizing.”
Do people who disagree with you lack morals? Or are their morals wrong?
Moral relativism is an intellectual shield for laziness.
Take a stand for something, especially an idea bigger than yourself. You may be pleasantly surprised at who you become.
Take a stand for something, especially an idea bigger than yourself. You may be pleasantly surprised at who you become.
It could be [n]either.
[deleted]
You echoed me & stole my voice by wavelengths
Nothing wrong with games.
"When you're young, you look at television and think, There's a conspiracy. The networks have conspired to dumb us down. But when you get a little older, you realize that's not true. The networks are in business to give people exactly what they want. That's a far more depressing thought. Conspiracy is optimistic! You can shoot the bastards! We can have a revolution! But the networks are really in business to give people what they want. It's the truth."
http://www.informationliberation.com/?id=36783