Ask HN: Say 'no' to a person who wants you to build their bad startup idea?
As a CS grad, I'm approached on a daily basis by friends/referrals of friends to talk about their 'idea'. Most often, the idea sucks or isn't well thought out or isn't interesting to me. I was wondering how others in the HN community deal with situations like these? What's a good way to tell someone 'no' without hurting their feelings?
22 comments
"That sounds pretty cool. I'm not really looking for new projects right now because I want to spend my time on the ones I've got going already, but if you want, I can send you a list of programming resources* you might find useful."
If they respond with "But don't you like my idea?" or "You mean you don't want to help me?" respond with something like "I haven't done enough research to know if the idea is good or not, and it's really hard to predict how the market is going to go, especially in technology. I think it'd be awesome if you built this thing... I just can't offer much more than moral support, high-fives, and maybe a little bit of advice. If you really want someone to build this, try hiring a freelancer on ODesk... I just can't make the time right now."
Don't worry about whether the idea sucks; very few ideas survive through the full development of the product, and very few of these people will follow-through.
If they keep pushing, end the conversation with "Look, you're my friend, but I'd much rather we stay friends than become business partners." or "Look: I'm choosing to spend my time on my projects. This doesn't mean I don't like you, or that I dislike the idea; it just means that I'm not the guy to build it for you. I'll gladly point you to resources, or show you where to go to hire a programmer, but this is your project, and you should be the one to build it."
*Obviously, you'd have to compile a list like this, but that should be relatively easy to do.
If they respond with "But don't you like my idea?" or "You mean you don't want to help me?" respond with something like "I haven't done enough research to know if the idea is good or not, and it's really hard to predict how the market is going to go, especially in technology. I think it'd be awesome if you built this thing... I just can't offer much more than moral support, high-fives, and maybe a little bit of advice. If you really want someone to build this, try hiring a freelancer on ODesk... I just can't make the time right now."
Don't worry about whether the idea sucks; very few ideas survive through the full development of the product, and very few of these people will follow-through.
If they keep pushing, end the conversation with "Look, you're my friend, but I'd much rather we stay friends than become business partners." or "Look: I'm choosing to spend my time on my projects. This doesn't mean I don't like you, or that I dislike the idea; it just means that I'm not the guy to build it for you. I'll gladly point you to resources, or show you where to go to hire a programmer, but this is your project, and you should be the one to build it."
*Obviously, you'd have to compile a list like this, but that should be relatively easy to do.
Once they tell you their idea quote them a price to build it. They may try and convince you that they'll cut you in or take care of you when it's a big success, tell them you aren't in a position right now to be able to do that. Finding out they don't get free labor should end the conversation pretty quick and you don't have to burst their bubble.
It is dangerous to give price to build based on a verbal description accompanied by much arm waving.
I've been burnt. Had Mr Ideas say go ahead, actually made some small progress payments, kept changing his mind, etc. Eventually the wheels fell of the project and he sued for loss of income ! The gall of it all. His argument was that had I delivered on the verbal contract, his idea would have generated the fantastical revenue which he now missed out on and I was to make him square.
So I use a variant of this method. When people rave on about their great idea, I tell them that it "is interesting" and given a sufficiently detailed specification I will quote on what it would cost to build. Doesn't mean that I will build it. So far nobody has come back with a sufficiently detailed spec.
I've been burnt. Had Mr Ideas say go ahead, actually made some small progress payments, kept changing his mind, etc. Eventually the wheels fell of the project and he sued for loss of income ! The gall of it all. His argument was that had I delivered on the verbal contract, his idea would have generated the fantastical revenue which he now missed out on and I was to make him square.
So I use a variant of this method. When people rave on about their great idea, I tell them that it "is interesting" and given a sufficiently detailed specification I will quote on what it would cost to build. Doesn't mean that I will build it. So far nobody has come back with a sufficiently detailed spec.
I always quote time and materials with a "based on what you have shown me I think it will be X amount of time", I never say Y amount of dollars, just X time. I then tell them that any change or any lack of clarity will result in the number going up or them deciding to remove the feature to stay in X. Keeps you out of the "we agreed to the project for Y amount and I did not get the project and he got Y" disagreements.
Sounds like a great idea! When you mention "time" are you referring to billable time or elapsed time? Also do you discuss a specific rate or a range of rates? I've tried your approach and ended up with clients doing a time x rate calculation and then ended up back in the Y amount debate.
Man that sucks! I'm sorry. Appreciate you sharing.
edit: sucks that you got sued. Want to make sure that it doesn't sound like I think your response sucks :p
Thanks for your support. Yeah, it was an experience to learn from. Turned out Ok ... see my reply to jbigelow76 on how it turned out.
Sorry to hear that man. Your advice is definitely more practical. The grief of getting sued would be bad enough, I hope the guy lost.
Thanks for your support. Well it was check mate. The client was on track to bankruptcy and was hoping to screw me to solve his problem. I had a quiet chat with his lawyers and enlightened them to the fact that he wasn't in a position to pay his legal fees. So ... guess what? ... they declined him as a client.
The problem is the news is riddles with simple idea apps that where developed in a week or two and where parleyed into a success. The problem is those are the fringe cases, it's like winning the lottery for most other apps it is a huge amount of work to get it right and not just be shoveling more junkware onto the market.
That being said, and given the fact that I restore vehicles as a hobby, I generally approach it from a car analogy because it seems that everyone understand a computer to car analogy. I simply tell them, do you realize that your idea will entail more work than a frame-off restoration of a car back to original mint condition. That literally in less time, I could totally disassemble a car, it's motor and body, remove all of it's rust, weld what needs to be welded, sand it all, paint it, rebuild the axles, the transmission, the engine install them, install all the wring and electronics and reupholster the interior etc. etc.
I then go on to explain that if they have not done any planning other than an idea, it is like doing all that without having a manual that tells me what the head bolts should be torqued to, what the original color code of the body paint was, etc. I do this in a polite way, but they end up getting the gravity of the situation.
Then I will tell them I love to restore cars, if you go out and buy a really exotic car, I would love to come over at night and give you a hand on it, because it would be interesting to me. Applications are like that. I have to be really excited about the idea to want to put that much free time into a project. If we are around it, I usually point to my 69 Bronco and say I have over 1000 hours in that truck. It is my pride and joy, I was really excited about that project. The magnitude of what they asks sets in at that point.
Most importantly though, I try to do so from a perspective of educating them and not berating them. I think this whole problem arises from a lack of understanding of what or better put how much they are asking for. I think it stems from the fact that software, in their experience, makes doing things easier and faster, but making software has little to do with the experience of using software, it is actually inverse the more automated and helpful a piece of software is the more work that went into making it seem like it almost reads your mind.
That being said, and given the fact that I restore vehicles as a hobby, I generally approach it from a car analogy because it seems that everyone understand a computer to car analogy. I simply tell them, do you realize that your idea will entail more work than a frame-off restoration of a car back to original mint condition. That literally in less time, I could totally disassemble a car, it's motor and body, remove all of it's rust, weld what needs to be welded, sand it all, paint it, rebuild the axles, the transmission, the engine install them, install all the wring and electronics and reupholster the interior etc. etc.
I then go on to explain that if they have not done any planning other than an idea, it is like doing all that without having a manual that tells me what the head bolts should be torqued to, what the original color code of the body paint was, etc. I do this in a polite way, but they end up getting the gravity of the situation.
Then I will tell them I love to restore cars, if you go out and buy a really exotic car, I would love to come over at night and give you a hand on it, because it would be interesting to me. Applications are like that. I have to be really excited about the idea to want to put that much free time into a project. If we are around it, I usually point to my 69 Bronco and say I have over 1000 hours in that truck. It is my pride and joy, I was really excited about that project. The magnitude of what they asks sets in at that point.
Most importantly though, I try to do so from a perspective of educating them and not berating them. I think this whole problem arises from a lack of understanding of what or better put how much they are asking for. I think it stems from the fact that software, in their experience, makes doing things easier and faster, but making software has little to do with the experience of using software, it is actually inverse the more automated and helpful a piece of software is the more work that went into making it seem like it almost reads your mind.
Most of the time those simple idea apps weren't even successes. They got major press attention for a week, but afterwards they have no revenue to show for it.
If these are people you genuinely care about, it is worth the time investment to educate them why the idea isn't practical or useful. Keep in mind that they often do not have nearly the same insight into what it takes to really build a product or a business.
For a lot of other people (where you dont want to invest the time debating/educating them), you can offer to let them retain equity and work on it at contract rates. If you have the spare time and use for the cash, you can give them a slight discount (vs. market) and everyone wins.
For a lot of other people (where you dont want to invest the time debating/educating them), you can offer to let them retain equity and work on it at contract rates. If you have the spare time and use for the cash, you can give them a slight discount (vs. market) and everyone wins.
(where you dont want to invest the time debating/educating them)
As a note and please don't construe this as a critique because it is valid to not want to spend time educating people, some times we are just to busy and these things can come from everywhere. But for me personally, I feel like it is my duty to the rest of you guys to educate them. I don't do it for them only, I do it for, me, them the next developer they cross paths with, educating them helps them as well as the next developer and could possible end up enriching both peoples life if they get it right.
As a note and please don't construe this as a critique because it is valid to not want to spend time educating people, some times we are just to busy and these things can come from everywhere. But for me personally, I feel like it is my duty to the rest of you guys to educate them. I don't do it for them only, I do it for, me, them the next developer they cross paths with, educating them helps them as well as the next developer and could possible end up enriching both peoples life if they get it right.
That's great advice. Gotta love ways in which everybody wins. How has your experience with it been?
Personally, I think you should tell anyone with a bad idea that asks you to build their product that their idea isn't good. As a teenager who struggled for the first eight to nine months to find a worthy problem to solve after deciding to dabble in entrepreneurship, I think your friends or referrals will benefit from blunt advice. Also, if someone comes to you without willing to pay money for development or contract work, then I have a feeling they aren't too serious about the project, or haven't done any validation of the market.
Is this something you do when you hear a bad idea? Aren't you worried that your relationship with these people will be affected by your honest response that might hurt their ego?
Usually when I hear a bad idea, I'll ask someone if he or she has done any market validation or talked to any potential customers. If the person says they have not done so, I usually suggest that the person go talk to different people right away. That is my gentle way of telling someone an idea idea isn't too good, as he or she will usually find out after talking to the target market that the original idea wasn't a solution to any problem. That being said, the first time I ever cold-emailed a programmer and Skyped with him asking for feedback on my idea, he told me it was awful and guided me through the process of determining if an idea has "legs". What I learned from him has proved to be invaluable.
There really are two things you are mentioning here, so I'll treat them separately (even if most of the times, both are relevant).
1) I think the idea sucks:
Stay honest, but polite. I try to explain why I believe the idea is not, in its current form, good enough. I stay as scientific as possible in this explanation, by giving concrete examples, scenarios and cases where it wouldn't work. At the same time, I provide some advice in terms of what I think there are opportunities for the idea (if any) and almost always finish with a motivational message about not giving up. After all, it's not because I think it's not a good idea that it is not... and who am I to crush people's dreams.
2) You're not interested in the idea:
A lot of us have busy lives, and that's a fact. There are many things you would like to do, try, and experience but at some point there are choices to be made and priorities to establish. When I'm not interested I explain that there's a lot on my plate already, and that I wouldn't be able to keep up with it. So instead of saying yes, out of excitement, and disappointing later, I'd rather politely decline upfront for everyone's best interest :)
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Bottom line, there is no need to lie or invent excuses, but 'explain' it in a way people understand, and they shouldn't get hurt.
1) I think the idea sucks:
Stay honest, but polite. I try to explain why I believe the idea is not, in its current form, good enough. I stay as scientific as possible in this explanation, by giving concrete examples, scenarios and cases where it wouldn't work. At the same time, I provide some advice in terms of what I think there are opportunities for the idea (if any) and almost always finish with a motivational message about not giving up. After all, it's not because I think it's not a good idea that it is not... and who am I to crush people's dreams.
2) You're not interested in the idea:
A lot of us have busy lives, and that's a fact. There are many things you would like to do, try, and experience but at some point there are choices to be made and priorities to establish. When I'm not interested I explain that there's a lot on my plate already, and that I wouldn't be able to keep up with it. So instead of saying yes, out of excitement, and disappointing later, I'd rather politely decline upfront for everyone's best interest :)
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Bottom line, there is no need to lie or invent excuses, but 'explain' it in a way people understand, and they shouldn't get hurt.
One approach I use is to say that although the 'idea' is good/interesting/brilliant I am not passionate enough about the project to be able to give it my all.
On a related note, I think of the worthiness of ideas based on whether they are interesting enough to get me to work on them in my spare time even if it were for free.
On a related note, I think of the worthiness of ideas based on whether they are interesting enough to get me to work on them in my spare time even if it were for free.
I've used that one before. I'm afraid to use it too much though because I don't want to turn off people who want to talk to me about good ideas.
It's even worse if you actually work on these ideas. I've done it before and I won't ever do it again.
What ends up happening is that you start working on it and the "ideas person" doesn't have any time invested in it and gets bored when it's not finished within a short amount of time. If they do decide to move on, you can't do anything with it unless you want to either give them a percentage or go through a lawsuit.
I worked on a project for 6 months only to have the ideas guy tell me that he would rather focus on things that are making him money now, like computer tech support (this was back in 2003). His business went under a year or so later.
I get approached a couple of times a month like this and I usually end up telling them that I am working on my own projects and I don't want to lose focus. It's never been a problem.
What ends up happening is that you start working on it and the "ideas person" doesn't have any time invested in it and gets bored when it's not finished within a short amount of time. If they do decide to move on, you can't do anything with it unless you want to either give them a percentage or go through a lawsuit.
I worked on a project for 6 months only to have the ideas guy tell me that he would rather focus on things that are making him money now, like computer tech support (this was back in 2003). His business went under a year or so later.
I get approached a couple of times a month like this and I usually end up telling them that I am working on my own projects and I don't want to lose focus. It's never been a problem.
Instead of saying "no" to their idea, try to say "yes" to something else. Ask yourself, what could they do that would prove it's a good idea? For example, maybe they could line up a customer who would pay for it, or an investors would would pay to have it developed. Then you can suggest they take this additional action.