CNN Reports Diaspora's Ilya Zhitomirskiy Committed Suicide(money.cnn.com)
money.cnn.com
CNN Reports Diaspora's Ilya Zhitomirskiy Committed Suicide
http://money.cnn.com/2011/11/14/technology/diaspora_cofounder_died/
19 comments
So I just feel terrible frankly that I mistakenly turned down interacting with him. Would have we had some conversation that would have changed his opinion on things? Given him some new hope?
This is a very human reaction, but please don't let yourself get hung up on this line of thinking. Heroic intervention is something we tend to overestimate. What you can do is to be there for the people you know well. When someone's hurting, be generous with your time; be someone they can turn to. If you ever think someone's at risk, know what to look for and know where to turn.
This is a very human reaction, but please don't let yourself get hung up on this line of thinking. Heroic intervention is something we tend to overestimate. What you can do is to be there for the people you know well. When someone's hurting, be generous with your time; be someone they can turn to. If you ever think someone's at risk, know what to look for and know where to turn.
Please take mortenjorck's advice to heart. There's very likely nothing you could have done that could have stopped this.
Remember that people's emotions are not trivial problems that you can solve if you just spend enough time working on them. The tech culture is particularly toxic, in my opinion, for people suffering from depression. Depression is not something you can sit down and hammer out a solution to over a weekend. It grabs hold of people and doesn't let go. It takes years of professional help (from people who actually understand human emotions and psychology) and the will to get better.
Please don't think about this too hard, because you can get caught up in all of the "If only I'd have called him" thoughts.
If you feel guilty, then talk to someone who understands how to deal with these kinds of events. Even a single visit to a psychologist can do a lot to break this feedback loop of guilt. Talking to someone who knows how to listen about real feelings of guilt or depression is the best thing you can do in your position.
Remember that people's emotions are not trivial problems that you can solve if you just spend enough time working on them. The tech culture is particularly toxic, in my opinion, for people suffering from depression. Depression is not something you can sit down and hammer out a solution to over a weekend. It grabs hold of people and doesn't let go. It takes years of professional help (from people who actually understand human emotions and psychology) and the will to get better.
Please don't think about this too hard, because you can get caught up in all of the "If only I'd have called him" thoughts.
If you feel guilty, then talk to someone who understands how to deal with these kinds of events. Even a single visit to a psychologist can do a lot to break this feedback loop of guilt. Talking to someone who knows how to listen about real feelings of guilt or depression is the best thing you can do in your position.
I've written this note in another topic on this tragic event, my apologies for the repost, but I think it's important that taboo subjects like depression are discussed. Even if this turns out to not be depression in this particular case, it certainly is extremely common amongst people in tech (sitting in front of your screen, alone, for a long time really doesn't help). It helped me a lot, personally, to reach out and see just how many people went through something similar and I hope that what I wrote might in turn help out others. So here goes the repost:
--- --- --- ---
I wrote about depression a while ago - http://sk.or.at/elou9l - maybe you will find words that help you in my post.
Always remember: You only fail in things that you do, not in who you are.
--- --- --- ---
I wrote about depression a while ago - http://sk.or.at/elou9l - maybe you will find words that help you in my post.
Always remember: You only fail in things that you do, not in who you are.
Hey skorat,
Thank you for writing that blog post. The worse part of depression has definitely been the lack of productivity. Just saying no to doing a lot of things and doing the remaining things in small chunks seems to work the best.
Thanks again for sharing!
Thank you for writing that blog post. The worse part of depression has definitely been the lack of productivity. Just saying no to doing a lot of things and doing the remaining things in small chunks seems to work the best.
Thanks again for sharing!
It's actually skore, but I see where you got confused ;-)
And I obviously agree - Depression often means feeling overwhelmed by responsibility. Being better at managing it really does help.
And I obviously agree - Depression often means feeling overwhelmed by responsibility. Being better at managing it really does help.
Well said, sometimes a community's harsh criticisms will be brutal to startup founders. But life is not just about making it to the top, just enjoy the journey.
I'm in deep agreement here. Gregory Bateson put it well, many years ago, writing to someone who wondered whether she/he had a role in a friend's suicide:
Complete, in your imagination, this scenario:
Your friend has achieved her suicide and arrived at the Pearly Gates, where she is challenged by St. Peter, who notes that she has come too soon. She says that it was all --------------- 's fault.
There are many ways of completing the scenario, but one way or another, your friend has to demonstrate that she had no free will but you had. I suggest either that you both had free will or that neither of you had.
http://pages.citebite.com/d1u1k9v8e9gfq
Complete, in your imagination, this scenario:
Your friend has achieved her suicide and arrived at the Pearly Gates, where she is challenged by St. Peter, who notes that she has come too soon. She says that it was all --------------- 's fault.
There are many ways of completing the scenario, but one way or another, your friend has to demonstrate that she had no free will but you had. I suggest either that you both had free will or that neither of you had.
http://pages.citebite.com/d1u1k9v8e9gfq
that's very well put. there certainly are people who cause others to commit suicide (such as an abusive spouse or parent), but they are precisely the sort of people who wouldn't feel any guilt over the suicide anyway.
I disagree, suicide is selected into the genome to get useless parts to self destruct. Like how skin cells have to shift around to service the whole. He was reaching out to everywhere he could looking for validation and found none. Mixed with a stiff upper lip and a lack of desire to show weakness is a recipe for a feedback loop of perceived irrelevance. When all around you use actions to indicate that you are a burden, not an asset. Freeing up resources is good for the hive. he loved the collective, too much.
Your no's were part of the feedback loop, you couldnt have known the magnitude of what was happening, but your actions are part of his decision. Healing from this will take honesty, you can delude others but not yourself.
You are a part of it, but it wasn't your responsibility.
Your no's were part of the feedback loop, you couldnt have known the magnitude of what was happening, but your actions are part of his decision. Healing from this will take honesty, you can delude others but not yourself.
You are a part of it, but it wasn't your responsibility.
Ugh, do not listen to opinions like this.
You show a fundamental ignorance of human psychology and the effects of depression on an otherwise healthy mind.
You show a fundamental ignorance of human psychology and the effects of depression on an otherwise healthy mind.
He also shows a fundamental ignorance of evolutionary pressures, and basically makes up a story that fits his prejudices. There is, of course, much precedent for this in human history; for example, to demonstrate how black people were racially inferior.
It's a fundamentally anti-scientific thing to do.
It's a fundamentally anti-scientific thing to do.
Any genes that encode suicide would be selected against so quickly they would not make a dent in evolutionary history.
There are selective pressures on societies, but they are utterly and completely dwarfed by the individual selective pressures. Whenever there is any sort of conflict between societal selection and individual selection, evolution will not give the former any say.
The reason is that it takes many many generations for any genetic makeup to actually destroy societies as a whole, and it is an extremely rare event. Genetic selection based on individual success happens all the time.
There are selective pressures on societies, but they are utterly and completely dwarfed by the individual selective pressures. Whenever there is any sort of conflict between societal selection and individual selection, evolution will not give the former any say.
The reason is that it takes many many generations for any genetic makeup to actually destroy societies as a whole, and it is an extremely rare event. Genetic selection based on individual success happens all the time.
Suicidal genes wouldn't be selected against if they conferred some greater advantage. See the sickle cell anemia gene for an example of something that's tremendously deadly yet evolutionarily favored in some circumstances.
Or if the genes were expressed after the age of bearing offspring passed...
That would do it too. It seems unlikely that this would be the case in humans, since suicide affects so many young people, but it's at least theoretically possible.
I suspect that the genetic components of suicide are side effects from the various genes that help make us smart.
I suspect that the genetic components of suicide are side effects from the various genes that help make us smart.
Sure, but that advantage must be one of the individual, not of society.
Genes are selfish -- they help society only insofar as it helps the individual. They will never choose society's benefit over the individual's.
Genes are selfish -- they help society only insofar as it helps the individual. They will never choose society's benefit over the individual's.
The benefit doesn't have to be to the suicidal individual, though.
One copy of the sickle cell gene confers a tremendous advantage: great resistance to malaria. Two copies of the gene kills the unfortunate person fairly quickly in the absence of modern medicine. There's no advantage to suffering from sickle cell disease, but there's enough of an advantage to other people that the gene persisted and even flourished in some populations.
Suicide could be similar. There are probably a bunch of genes which coordinate to work on our brains, and are generally advantageous. I speculate that in certain combinations, these genes contribute mental illnesses, including depression and tendency toward suicide. This doesn't get selected out, because those genes in other combinations are still highly advantageous.
One copy of the sickle cell gene confers a tremendous advantage: great resistance to malaria. Two copies of the gene kills the unfortunate person fairly quickly in the absence of modern medicine. There's no advantage to suffering from sickle cell disease, but there's enough of an advantage to other people that the gene persisted and even flourished in some populations.
Suicide could be similar. There are probably a bunch of genes which coordinate to work on our brains, and are generally advantageous. I speculate that in certain combinations, these genes contribute mental illnesses, including depression and tendency toward suicide. This doesn't get selected out, because those genes in other combinations are still highly advantageous.
Yes, indeed, the gene may be detrimental under certain conditions to the individual (e.g: two copies of same gene), if it helps the individual in the average case.
There are many nuances that my statements in previous comments gloss over and which make them incorrect.
My point is that "societal selection" of genes is rare and virtually completely insignificant.
There are many nuances that my statements in previous comments gloss over and which make them incorrect.
My point is that "societal selection" of genes is rare and virtually completely insignificant.
I have the guts to agree with this. He did NOT have responsibility but his words do have an effect..
Do our words have an effect on others? I think most intelligent ppl would say yes, even if the effect is small. I mean, you can't have your cake and eat it too... so the parent is absolutely right.
When you are depressed, small things that may seem trivial like not answering a phone call, responding to an email, etc becomes a big deal as they pile up.. little by little, depressed people lose faith in both humanity, and themselves. It's very easy and convenient to say we don't have time, and very very very easy to say "talk to me when you're in trouble", but extremely hard to actually walk the walk in our busy, occupied lives
Do our words have an effect on others? I think most intelligent ppl would say yes, even if the effect is small. I mean, you can't have your cake and eat it too... so the parent is absolutely right.
When you are depressed, small things that may seem trivial like not answering a phone call, responding to an email, etc becomes a big deal as they pile up.. little by little, depressed people lose faith in both humanity, and themselves. It's very easy and convenient to say we don't have time, and very very very easy to say "talk to me when you're in trouble", but extremely hard to actually walk the walk in our busy, occupied lives
I'd like to see some references or research to back up your comment. As it stands, I down-voted you, as I don't think you are adding valuable content: I would happily reverse my down-vote if you can produce even a small amount of evidence for this, that can be further discussed and critiqued.
There's no evidence supporting his claims, however, it's my opinion that there's no evidence supporting the current hypotheses in the psychology of depression either.
There's too little skepticism surrounding psychology, no mathematical model that can make predictions and the scientific method is not employed.
I take his post simply as a hypothesis based on an opinion and nothing else. Expressing skepticism to the hypothesis is healthy, and justified, but not expressing skepticism to the current state of affairs is not healthy and unjustified.
I feel there's no need to downvote the guy for simply stating a non mainstream opinion. So far, opinions is all what we have in the field anyway.
There's too little skepticism surrounding psychology, no mathematical model that can make predictions and the scientific method is not employed.
I take his post simply as a hypothesis based on an opinion and nothing else. Expressing skepticism to the hypothesis is healthy, and justified, but not expressing skepticism to the current state of affairs is not healthy and unjustified.
I feel there's no need to downvote the guy for simply stating a non mainstream opinion. So far, opinions is all what we have in the field anyway.
Militant atheists often claim that religion, in the hands of the simple minded, is very dangerous. Thanks for providing an example on how this isn't unique to religion.
I know this is an open forum but these threads are getting hard to read. Copycat suicides are a real phenomenon and some responses, however genuine and well intentioned, can make them more likely to occur.
Department of Health Recommendations for Covering Suicide. Do not apportion blame. Do not give simple reasons. Do not glorify.
Read more here:
http://www.who.int/mental_health/prevention/suicide/resource...
http://www.scribd.com/doc/126241/WHO-Media-Guide-for-Suicide...
Department of Health Recommendations for Covering Suicide. Do not apportion blame. Do not give simple reasons. Do not glorify.
Read more here:
http://www.who.int/mental_health/prevention/suicide/resource...
http://www.scribd.com/doc/126241/WHO-Media-Guide-for-Suicide...
Please, if suicide has crossed your mind, please, please, please find help. I had a fraternity brother commit suicide and you have no idea how much you'll be missed.
Help is out there and it is free.
http://www.suicidepreventionlifeline.org/
Help is out there and it is free.
http://www.suicidepreventionlifeline.org/
so, we create hell on earth for other people and when these people decide to leave the hell, we caringly, with all the good emotions in in the voice, say "please don't do it". You must be kidding.
How about just looking around and honestly answering simple question - whose hell today i'm part of ? One don't need to be an active or the most painful part, being just a part, a silent brick in the wall, is enough. And may be, if one has enough brains and courage, to refuse to be the part of the hell, just for one person, just for one day.
And, yes, two decades ago during student years, 3 persons i personally knew very well made the decision, and i respect it. They made the biggest decision in their life, and i'd not disrespect it with "what if"s or "they should have reach for the help" or with any other trash like this...
How about just looking around and honestly answering simple question - whose hell today i'm part of ? One don't need to be an active or the most painful part, being just a part, a silent brick in the wall, is enough. And may be, if one has enough brains and courage, to refuse to be the part of the hell, just for one person, just for one day.
And, yes, two decades ago during student years, 3 persons i personally knew very well made the decision, and i respect it. They made the biggest decision in their life, and i'd not disrespect it with "what if"s or "they should have reach for the help" or with any other trash like this...
Get out of here with that. Maybe there are circumstances, in times of horrible war or famine or terminal illness, where suicide is the necessary step to end suffering. Maybe that's hell; I wouldn't know. I hope not to.
But I know depression. Depression feels like hell, but it's not. It's a treatable disease. Killing yourself to escape depression is like killing yourself to escape pneumonia instead of going to the hospital.
You should not respect that decision. You should help that person to get better.
But I know depression. Depression feels like hell, but it's not. It's a treatable disease. Killing yourself to escape depression is like killing yourself to escape pneumonia instead of going to the hospital.
You should not respect that decision. You should help that person to get better.
what depression has to do with it? this is exactly kind of disrespect i was talking about. To immediately declare the person to be psychologically ill just because of our deepest fear of what may happen if we accept that ending your own life may be a rational well-thought off decision. It is easy to blame the person's imaginary illness instead of accepting responsibility that human society normally creates conditions when such a decision can be a rational well-thought off one.
No.
People like you, who think that mental illness which is every bit as real as a broken arm is "imaginary" just because you can't see anything wrong, are one of the very worst parts of human society. You are part of the reason, probably the main reason, life is so hard for the mentally ill.
I really shouldn't have to explain this to you, as a great deal has been written on the subject in the past several decades. I beg of you, as a sometime depression sufferer, please go read up on this. Your ignorance hurts humanity.
If you are not ignorant, but simply unwilling to educate yourself, then please take your insane ideology back to the Dark Ages where it belongs.
People like you, who think that mental illness which is every bit as real as a broken arm is "imaginary" just because you can't see anything wrong, are one of the very worst parts of human society. You are part of the reason, probably the main reason, life is so hard for the mentally ill.
I really shouldn't have to explain this to you, as a great deal has been written on the subject in the past several decades. I beg of you, as a sometime depression sufferer, please go read up on this. Your ignorance hurts humanity.
If you are not ignorant, but simply unwilling to educate yourself, then please take your insane ideology back to the Dark Ages where it belongs.
>People like you, who think that mental illness which is every bit as real as a broken arm is "imaginary"
sorry, man, you've just produced non sequtuir as i never said that mental illnesses are "imaginary".
I said that the statement - "if suicide then necessarily mental illness" - is false in my view. Such statement being false doesn't necessarily means that mental illnesses are imaginary nor that some suicides are result of real mental illnesses.
sorry, man, you've just produced non sequtuir as i never said that mental illnesses are "imaginary".
I said that the statement - "if suicide then necessarily mental illness" - is false in my view. Such statement being false doesn't necessarily means that mental illnesses are imaginary nor that some suicides are result of real mental illnesses.
You have started this discussion on the argument that "we create hell on earth for other people" which is about as unfounded as Cushman jumping to the conclusion that it was depression that caused this suicide, before the facts are in.
As it stands, you both have about the same amount of rationality in your argument while Cushman certainly has the numbers on his side - Mental Illness certainly is the leading cause of suicide:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide#Risk_factors
"Clinical studies have shown that underlying mental disorders are present in 87% to 98% of suicides"
So I think Cushman is right - there is no use for your argument in this discussion and all that stands is a misunderstanding about your choice of words on "imaginary" (which I understood the same way that Cushman did - you clearly didn't choose your words wisely there and were bound to be misunderstood).
As it stands, you both have about the same amount of rationality in your argument while Cushman certainly has the numbers on his side - Mental Illness certainly is the leading cause of suicide:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide#Risk_factors
"Clinical studies have shown that underlying mental disorders are present in 87% to 98% of suicides"
So I think Cushman is right - there is no use for your argument in this discussion and all that stands is a misunderstanding about your choice of words on "imaginary" (which I understood the same way that Cushman did - you clearly didn't choose your words wisely there and were bound to be misunderstood).
> certainly has the numbers on his side
That statistic presents a somewhat circular logic, with drug abuse (mainly alcohol) and mood disorders (depression: uni-/bi-polar) making up the bulk of the 'mental disorders' figure (FTA). Since feelings of worthlessness and suicidal thoughts are used to diagnose depressive disorders in the first place and since drug abuse is acknowledged to often be a form of self-medication for undiagnosed depression, blaming 'mental disorders' clearly begs the question in a large number of cases.
The literature shows that environmental factors play a major role in causing and aggravating these illnesses and behaviours. I believe this is the point that VladRussian was making and it's not so easily dismissed with 'numbers'. Likewise, the very large proportion of suicides which come after a clinical diagnosis (and presumably some kind of treatment) doesn't inspire much faith in the 'just go and get yourself sorted out' line of advice.
I find it disturbing that in a discussion on this topic, someone advocating being kinder to people in general, and perhaps certain people in particular, would be subjected to the kind of insults that Cushman has used.
That statistic presents a somewhat circular logic, with drug abuse (mainly alcohol) and mood disorders (depression: uni-/bi-polar) making up the bulk of the 'mental disorders' figure (FTA). Since feelings of worthlessness and suicidal thoughts are used to diagnose depressive disorders in the first place and since drug abuse is acknowledged to often be a form of self-medication for undiagnosed depression, blaming 'mental disorders' clearly begs the question in a large number of cases.
The literature shows that environmental factors play a major role in causing and aggravating these illnesses and behaviours. I believe this is the point that VladRussian was making and it's not so easily dismissed with 'numbers'. Likewise, the very large proportion of suicides which come after a clinical diagnosis (and presumably some kind of treatment) doesn't inspire much faith in the 'just go and get yourself sorted out' line of advice.
I find it disturbing that in a discussion on this topic, someone advocating being kinder to people in general, and perhaps certain people in particular, would be subjected to the kind of insults that Cushman has used.
I would say that both sides of the argument that VladRussian started have a point but equally lack civility: viggity simply linked to a suicide prevention site and VladRussian lashed out how somebody dare to ask for suicidal people to seek help when it's society at fault. Cushman took offense and implied that depression is the culprit here. Cue further misunderstanding about the wording of "imaginary".
I think both sides are projecting their own view a little too hard on this.
Environmental factors surely are a factor in this and I was 'quoting numbers' because VladRussian was a little to quick to dismiss mental illness. Again - since we all don't know the details in this particular case, this is an abstract discussion about suicide. In an abstract discussion, you either make a case and discuss it, or you discuss one that another person has made. VladRussian simply picked a fight and Cushman bought into it.
Also, re: circular logic. I don't think it is circular - Suicidal thoughts may be a symptom of depression, but that's not the same as saying they are a cause of depression. I know you don't say that either, but that's what would make it circular. (Also: saying it's 'somewhat circular' is a cop-out - it either is, or isn't circular.) I further don't think mental disorders really are "blamed" for suicide, they are simply accepted as a very common pathway in medical studies.
I think both sides are projecting their own view a little too hard on this.
Environmental factors surely are a factor in this and I was 'quoting numbers' because VladRussian was a little to quick to dismiss mental illness. Again - since we all don't know the details in this particular case, this is an abstract discussion about suicide. In an abstract discussion, you either make a case and discuss it, or you discuss one that another person has made. VladRussian simply picked a fight and Cushman bought into it.
Also, re: circular logic. I don't think it is circular - Suicidal thoughts may be a symptom of depression, but that's not the same as saying they are a cause of depression. I know you don't say that either, but that's what would make it circular. (Also: saying it's 'somewhat circular' is a cop-out - it either is, or isn't circular.) I further don't think mental disorders really are "blamed" for suicide, they are simply accepted as a very common pathway in medical studies.
To say that a suicide was caused by depression and that we knew the person was depressed because they claimed to be suicidal is circular. I qualified the term because there are other components to that statistic which it would be wrong to discount. (I don't believe anyone in this subthread has done that.)
No, that is simply not logical and nobody is arguing it. Again - a claim to have suicidal thoughts is a factor in diagnosing depression. Acting on those thoughts leads to actual suicide. That does not imply that suicidal thoughts were the reason why somebody became depressed.
Here is what would be a perfectly circular argument:
Somebody commits suicide. Society looks for a reason of that suicide. They figure out that the person was depressed. But why was he depressed? Turns out, he was suicidal.
But that's not what is being argued:
Somebody is depressed. So much depressed, that the person has suicidal thoughts. The person commits suicide. Society correctly assesses that his depression was the main cause in committing suicide. This is apparent, because it was in depression that suicidal thoughts appeared.
Here is what would be a perfectly circular argument:
Somebody commits suicide. Society looks for a reason of that suicide. They figure out that the person was depressed. But why was he depressed? Turns out, he was suicidal.
But that's not what is being argued:
Somebody is depressed. So much depressed, that the person has suicidal thoughts. The person commits suicide. Society correctly assesses that his depression was the main cause in committing suicide. This is apparent, because it was in depression that suicidal thoughts appeared.
> human society normally creates conditions when such a decision can be a rational well-thought off one.
So you are dismissing the idea that Ilya was depressed. Yet, claim that there was terrible suffering and hell going on. Ok, I don't know what was happening in this life, but I will just guess that it is highly unlikely that famine, torture, physical, sexual or moral abuse was taking place, at least the kind were most people would agree that suicide was an obvious rational choice.
There is nothing shameful, imaginary, or about depression. Just like there is nothing shameful or imaginary about getting the flu.
So you are dismissing the idea that Ilya was depressed. Yet, claim that there was terrible suffering and hell going on. Ok, I don't know what was happening in this life, but I will just guess that it is highly unlikely that famine, torture, physical, sexual or moral abuse was taking place, at least the kind were most people would agree that suicide was an obvious rational choice.
There is nothing shameful, imaginary, or about depression. Just like there is nothing shameful or imaginary about getting the flu.
>So you are dismissing the idea that Ilya was depressed.
no, i'm dismissing the idea that suicide necessarily means a mental illness.
no, i'm dismissing the idea that suicide necessarily means a mental illness.
I'd say it pretty clearly does. If it were a rational decision with no mental illness involved, the person could realize they can just pull a real world "why_". Just disappear, go somewhere else, be someone else and start over where no one knows you. You're going to lose everyone and everything you know anyway, why do you need to actually kill yourself as well (and doing so isn't risk free)?
If the person is rational then problems can only be one of two kinds: situational (e.g. my life sucks because I owe more money than I stand to earn in 3 lifetimes) and health-related. The rational stance to the first kind would be to do as I suggest above. Obviously, in the second case escaping won't change anything so suicide could be a rational choice.
If the person is rational then problems can only be one of two kinds: situational (e.g. my life sucks because I owe more money than I stand to earn in 3 lifetimes) and health-related. The rational stance to the first kind would be to do as I suggest above. Obviously, in the second case escaping won't change anything so suicide could be a rational choice.
sounds like until a person thinks the way you prescribe as the "rational" one, the person is deemed mentally ill.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1341504/pdf/bmjc...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1341504/pdf/bmjc...
If you can give details about those 3 and their reasons, perhaps you have a slight chance of convincing others that people have valid reasons for suicide other than depression. But EVERY case I've ever heard/seen (and maybe my sample is too small to be reflective of reality) points to depression as the leading and possibly only cause. There may have been root causes of that depression that were hell on earth, but the "but for" test still says depression was the direct cause of suicide in every case I've ever seen/read about/etc.
While I don't know any personally, I know people who know others who had living hell (eg. rape by father, impregnated, abortion). Those people got support, were able to fight back, and regained their lives. What made them different from others was the depression factor, and it's easy to conclude that the support others gave to help them stand up again prevented depression from taking hold.
You're making a very difficult-to-believe claim (for me for sure, and probably for others, given your downvotes) that depression had no factors in those 3 suicides, and an additional difficult-to-believe claim that it's not reasonable to conclude that depression is a leading factor in suicide in general.
Some details would be appreciated if you're going to make such difficult-to-believe claims.
edit: And if you would make the clarification again that you never claimed that depression wasn't a leading cause, just that it's not necessarily a factor, I don't see how that's a profitable statement. People have to make decisions and judgments all the time with incomplete information. Until the picture is 100% known here, it is logical to conclude what the numbers say: depression was a factor, if not the leading factor.
While I don't know any personally, I know people who know others who had living hell (eg. rape by father, impregnated, abortion). Those people got support, were able to fight back, and regained their lives. What made them different from others was the depression factor, and it's easy to conclude that the support others gave to help them stand up again prevented depression from taking hold.
You're making a very difficult-to-believe claim (for me for sure, and probably for others, given your downvotes) that depression had no factors in those 3 suicides, and an additional difficult-to-believe claim that it's not reasonable to conclude that depression is a leading factor in suicide in general.
Some details would be appreciated if you're going to make such difficult-to-believe claims.
edit: And if you would make the clarification again that you never claimed that depression wasn't a leading cause, just that it's not necessarily a factor, I don't see how that's a profitable statement. People have to make decisions and judgments all the time with incomplete information. Until the picture is 100% known here, it is logical to conclude what the numbers say: depression was a factor, if not the leading factor.
I say that "depression" along with "mental illness" are cop-out concepts used to shift the burden off society and onto the individual, by placing blame on some nebulous, bullshit entity.
I believe that the "root causes" of depression are what actually deserve any attention, and they are a combination of genes, society, environment and psychology that has been ingrained by these factors. Depression is like smoke from a fire, and we're currently treating it by installing fans to blow the smoke away.
This has been supported by research psychology about what makes a fulfilling life: a sense of autonomy, mastery, and relatedness. I guarantee you that someone missing even one of these will be "depressed." What do we say then? We don't think about how the environment he's living in is not encouraging these things, and we don't think about specific actions he can take to improve these factors.
No, we just say "Depression!" and tell him to go the therapist. Most people in modern society have eaten this psychiatry bullshit whole and as a consequence are more fit to tend houseplants than to maintain even the shallowest of friends.
So NO, what made the people who went through living hell different wasn't the fucking fake concept that is "depression", it was the SUPPORT.
I say we don't ever talk about depression. The very existence of the word "depression" pushes real societal and individual shortcomings and responsibility off the table.
We talk about what's going right and what's going wrong in the person's life, and if we don't have good advice on how to fix the things that are wrong, at least stop trying to grandstand and signal your social status with some useless platitudes and endlessly repeated refrains about the benefits of therapy and medication.
I believe that the "root causes" of depression are what actually deserve any attention, and they are a combination of genes, society, environment and psychology that has been ingrained by these factors. Depression is like smoke from a fire, and we're currently treating it by installing fans to blow the smoke away.
This has been supported by research psychology about what makes a fulfilling life: a sense of autonomy, mastery, and relatedness. I guarantee you that someone missing even one of these will be "depressed." What do we say then? We don't think about how the environment he's living in is not encouraging these things, and we don't think about specific actions he can take to improve these factors.
No, we just say "Depression!" and tell him to go the therapist. Most people in modern society have eaten this psychiatry bullshit whole and as a consequence are more fit to tend houseplants than to maintain even the shallowest of friends.
So NO, what made the people who went through living hell different wasn't the fucking fake concept that is "depression", it was the SUPPORT.
I say we don't ever talk about depression. The very existence of the word "depression" pushes real societal and individual shortcomings and responsibility off the table.
We talk about what's going right and what's going wrong in the person's life, and if we don't have good advice on how to fix the things that are wrong, at least stop trying to grandstand and signal your social status with some useless platitudes and endlessly repeated refrains about the benefits of therapy and medication.
I think that's unfair. I agree with what you're saying, but not your conclusion. Depression is probably only a symptom of deeper issues, but people who truly care don't use the word as a cop-out to not help someone. If anything, it's a very useful indicator that someone needs help, and for this reason, we shouldn't throw away the word. Rather, we should demonstrate more willingness to care and dive deep into the messy bits, which I think a lot of people unfortunately don't wish to do because they're too busy with their own things.
It seems your reaction is also a not so uncommon. I think it is just a coping strategy. Anger and dismissal is common in such situations.
of course it is a coping strategy. The adaptive nature of our brain means that we're always in the "coping strategy" to the previous experiences. Not analysing and not being affected by previous exprience wouldn't be a sign of a healthy brain.
I completely agree with your general sentiment. I think everyone who is downvoting you has installed in themselves a despicable world-view: that professional psychiatric support along with medication is a necessary part of having a fulfilling life, for those of us who were unlucky enough to go through hell on earth. It's not getting real results in the real world, or having fulfilling relationships, no, these people are sub-human because of their mental illness, they have to sign up to see a _therapist_. As for all of you disagreers: No, don't support these people, or question how your actions day-to-day might affect the well-being of others! Fully buy into the notion of man as sociopathically selfish and live it to the hilt, as you were well trained to do by school (and startup culture).
Internet criticism can be very hurtful. A simple way to prevent further startup suicides is that when you see someone being heavily criticized, or when you see a startup that is being criticized a lot, send them an email supporting them and offering to listen to their side of the story. Even if the people are not suicidal, it can help them through a difficult time and motivate them to continue to do good stuff.
The reality of the situation right now in the startup world is that when people hear you are making x amount/month, you get 500 emails, but when the tables turn and you are suddenly on the receiving end of heavy criticism, you get zero emails.
The reality of the situation right now in the startup world is that when people hear you are making x amount/month, you get 500 emails, but when the tables turn and you are suddenly on the receiving end of heavy criticism, you get zero emails.
Is it just speculation that his suicide relates to his work life?
(And not, say, girl/health/money problems...)
(And not, say, girl/health/money problems...)
money problems would definitely fall under work life for startups.
Girl/health problems might fall as well, since the work/life balance is so crappy
Girl/health problems might fall as well, since the work/life balance is so crappy
A little bit of a derailment from what this threat "ought to be" about, but...
The reality of the situation right now in the startup world is that when people hear you are making x amount/month, you get 500 emails, but when the tables turn and you are suddenly on the receiving end of heavy criticism, you get zero emails.
Is this a serious observation? It is my experience that literally nobody cares how much money you're making. Your popularity as a "startup celebrity" is entirely associated with how cool your project is perceived to be, and who is backing it. There are legions of founders making plenty of money on perceived-to-be-boring projects that nobody cares about.
The reality of the situation right now in the startup world is that when people hear you are making x amount/month, you get 500 emails, but when the tables turn and you are suddenly on the receiving end of heavy criticism, you get zero emails.
Is this a serious observation? It is my experience that literally nobody cares how much money you're making. Your popularity as a "startup celebrity" is entirely associated with how cool your project is perceived to be, and who is backing it. There are legions of founders making plenty of money on perceived-to-be-boring projects that nobody cares about.
Criticism is one thing, but a threat seems a bit much!
I hope Ilya is at peace. I'd like to speak to anyone who might feel, now or in the future, as desperate as Ilya must have.
Please consider this: by nature our own pain and suffering strikes us as intensely personal and private, but the truth is the experience is universal. For different reasons, at different times in our lives, we all get served heaping helpings of grief, desperation, regret, shame, disappointment - sometimes all at once. And, in the case of people with depression, sometimes for no discernible reason.
The most crushing aspect of depression and its cohorts is the false perception that your pain is so diabolically personal that it cannot be shared or understood, to say nothing of being addressed or overcome.
tl;dr you're never alone, in fact more people love and respect you than you know - try to never forget that.
Please consider this: by nature our own pain and suffering strikes us as intensely personal and private, but the truth is the experience is universal. For different reasons, at different times in our lives, we all get served heaping helpings of grief, desperation, regret, shame, disappointment - sometimes all at once. And, in the case of people with depression, sometimes for no discernible reason.
The most crushing aspect of depression and its cohorts is the false perception that your pain is so diabolically personal that it cannot be shared or understood, to say nothing of being addressed or overcome.
tl;dr you're never alone, in fact more people love and respect you than you know - try to never forget that.
I've been reading comments on Hacker News since this happened, and I have to say, you people sure have a funny definition of "failure".
https://joindiaspora.com/tags/NewHere – New users every one or two minutes.
https://github.com/diaspora/diaspora/commits/ – Multiple commits, sometimes dozens, every day, many from volunteers.
Would that I were fortunate enough to "fail" this well.
Attributing Ilya's suicide to "failure" is, to my eyes, condescending, and I wish you all would stop it.
https://joindiaspora.com/tags/NewHere – New users every one or two minutes.
https://github.com/diaspora/diaspora/commits/ – Multiple commits, sometimes dozens, every day, many from volunteers.
Would that I were fortunate enough to "fail" this well.
Attributing Ilya's suicide to "failure" is, to my eyes, condescending, and I wish you all would stop it.
When did you see the users and commits? did you account for the possibility that This is due to the (unfortunate) publicity disphora got after Zhitomirskiy passed away? i say wait a couple of weeks an then try again.
Diaspora commit: "Image for Ilya" https://github.com/diaspora/diaspora/commit/0c33791069010869...
One of the key things in dealing with failure really is not to worry too much about what the world thinks about you or your failure. Not to succumb to peer pressure. The society is ruthless in criticism towards people who take risks and fail. They are sort of used up as examples for other people.
I have relatives, two of whom died out of extreme stress and tension(Heart attack and Cancer) because they took loans beyond their means, were unable to repay it back and put a huge burden on their dependents. This is one example of taking risks which people really can't sustain. None of which is needed.
Although you must not worry about the world, at the same time you must not take unnecessary financial risks beyond your means. Because we are people and we go through emotions, and sometimes for things beyond our control we are responsible not just for our lives but for many other people around us. And when we take huge risks, we put both ourselves and people around us under that risk. Now when we can't deal with that risk and we fail, things go worse very quickly and we commit suicide or die out of a disease(fallout of stress).
Nothing is more important than health, and being happy. Take calculated risks. And if you fail, forget about it and start over.
Don't do things which put you in these situations at the first place. And if you are in that situation, seek help and deal with it with it patiently.
I have relatives, two of whom died out of extreme stress and tension(Heart attack and Cancer) because they took loans beyond their means, were unable to repay it back and put a huge burden on their dependents. This is one example of taking risks which people really can't sustain. None of which is needed.
Although you must not worry about the world, at the same time you must not take unnecessary financial risks beyond your means. Because we are people and we go through emotions, and sometimes for things beyond our control we are responsible not just for our lives but for many other people around us. And when we take huge risks, we put both ourselves and people around us under that risk. Now when we can't deal with that risk and we fail, things go worse very quickly and we commit suicide or die out of a disease(fallout of stress).
Nothing is more important than health, and being happy. Take calculated risks. And if you fail, forget about it and start over.
Don't do things which put you in these situations at the first place. And if you are in that situation, seek help and deal with it with it patiently.
It is so important to realize where you stand in life. I'm sure many of us would have loved to be in place of Ilya; In news all over at the age of 21. Perhaps he did not realize this. A great loss.
"Where you stand" and being in the news tend not to mean much to suicidal people. I deeply sympathize with all involved, Ilya included.
Agreed. The Internet can be a harsh mistress. "In the news" can also mean "reading 1000's of mean-spirited comments."
Not to comment on this specific case, but I really wish people didn't feel the need to listen to the kind of feedback you get from the general internet. It's such a waste of time and emotional energy.
Listen to the people you respect, ignore the rest. And if you do want to interact with the community, for heaven's sake, don't respond to the assholes. They're just background noise.
Listen to the people you respect, ignore the rest. And if you do want to interact with the community, for heaven's sake, don't respond to the assholes. They're just background noise.
Yeah that's easy to say and it really should be practiced but we all want and crave validation. The web can be incredibly harsh and ignorant (just take a look at a few of the comments here that got downvoteed to hell, which they deserved by the way) but when you get that validation from total strangers there's nothing like it! It's a rush, it's addictive, and it feels so much better than the hate.
I would say, if anything, you should do your best to filter out the total assholes but not disregard all negative feedback. There's a difference between "I hate x software because I'm a FOSS fanatic and your company sucks and destroys the earth", which is pretty harsh and "fuck you, you're queer" which is just safe to ignore.
I would say, if anything, you should do your best to filter out the total assholes but not disregard all negative feedback. There's a difference between "I hate x software because I'm a FOSS fanatic and your company sucks and destroys the earth", which is pretty harsh and "fuck you, you're queer" which is just safe to ignore.
Example: Justin Bieber hate. Those people make Internet look like a massive hate machine.
At least Bieber acknowledges that there's people who don't like him.
At least Bieber acknowledges that there's people who don't like him.
Sometimes suicide is driven by analytically looking at your life and deciding it really is awful... but a huge amount of the time it is a psychological problem of depression, which isn't going to be instantly cured by thinking "I'm in the news", or even "I have great friends/family".
The facts are the facts, but one's "analysis" is always based on opinion. When you suffer from depression, that opinion is always biased towards the negative, and it's nearly impossible to get out of the vicious cycle, especially if your serotonin receptors or secretors are malfunctioning.
Worse, you simply accept that opinion as established, cold, hard fact, which means that in your own mind it won't ever change (the world will always be a shithole. I'll always be a loser, Anything I try to do to fix things is futile because everything's so horrible, etc).
"Great friends/family" just means more people to disappoint or fail in some way. "In the news" just means a bigger humiliation once you inevitably screw everything up and piss everyone off and let everyone down.
Essentially, anything good in your life receives a negative spin, and anything bad gets amplified in your warped opinion. And that only leads to more despair, lower opinion, more despair, etc until it feels like the only logical choice is to off yourself. After all, you'd be doing the world a favor if you ceased to exist. All those people you wouldn't be there to hurt or let down. All the outrage you won't cause. It's a net gain, really.
Does that sound fucked up? It is, but for the depressed, that IS their reality.
Worse, you simply accept that opinion as established, cold, hard fact, which means that in your own mind it won't ever change (the world will always be a shithole. I'll always be a loser, Anything I try to do to fix things is futile because everything's so horrible, etc).
"Great friends/family" just means more people to disappoint or fail in some way. "In the news" just means a bigger humiliation once you inevitably screw everything up and piss everyone off and let everyone down.
Essentially, anything good in your life receives a negative spin, and anything bad gets amplified in your warped opinion. And that only leads to more despair, lower opinion, more despair, etc until it feels like the only logical choice is to off yourself. After all, you'd be doing the world a favor if you ceased to exist. All those people you wouldn't be there to hurt or let down. All the outrage you won't cause. It's a net gain, really.
Does that sound fucked up? It is, but for the depressed, that IS their reality.
When you're depressed, fame, money, opportunities can be all the more depressing because they don't help you feel better.
Unless you've been well-off, famous, respected, you can't understand just how big a gulf there can be between what people see when they look at you, and what you feel inside.
The bigger the gulf, the worse it feels.
Unless you've been well-off, famous, respected, you can't understand just how big a gulf there can be between what people see when they look at you, and what you feel inside.
The bigger the gulf, the worse it feels.
So, I made a fair amount of money off my last job (the company's stock plummeted, they repriced all the options, the price recovered), and I ended up with a six-figure retirement account at age 26.
I'm certainly fortunate and it makes my life a bit less stressful, but it doesn't keep me warm at night. It doesn't care about whether or not I had a good day at work. I can't have an intellectually stimulating conversation with it. And that's just a little bit of money. Fame would be even worse.
I'm certainly fortunate and it makes my life a bit less stressful, but it doesn't keep me warm at night. It doesn't care about whether or not I had a good day at work. I can't have an intellectually stimulating conversation with it. And that's just a little bit of money. Fame would be even worse.
Couldn't have put it better myself.
You could even cut it to "you can't understand just how big a gulf there can be between what people see when they look at you, and what you feel inside."
You could even cut it to "you can't understand just how big a gulf there can be between what people see when they look at you, and what you feel inside."
This is really sad news. It's ironic that in Silicon Valley, a place that embraces failure, someone has misconstrued something and taken it too personally. I hope Ilya has found peace.
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I find it appalling that much of his notability is the fact he committed suicide.
Given the sensitive nature of this conversation, how is downvoting suivix's comment justified?
Interesting, he went to the same high school as Kobe Bryant.
Failure precedes success ... Ilya was too young to know he was almost there. RIP shooting star.
It seems that Ilya left behind a detailed suicide note.
http://oobly.com/?p=530/
I spoke to a person who was there when his mother called to check on him. Tragic.
http://oobly.com/?p=530/
I spoke to a person who was there when his mother called to check on him. Tragic.
This is false.
Do you have any evidence of this?
yes, i was one of his three roommates who found his body, and the only one who read the note before the police took it as evidence. it was short, and simply said "thank you to everyone who was kind to me, this decision is purely my own".
my heart goes out to you and all of his family and friends
Why
My source was there, in the house, in that bedroom.
as one of the three people who found his body and the only one to read the note before it was taken as evidence, please do not spread rumors like this. i don't doubt that you have the best intentions, and may think you have the facts straight, but the note was short and simple: "thank you to everyone who was kind to me, this decision is purely my own".
EDIT: i just realized you are the author of the blog you linked to. PLEASE take that post down. it is inaccurate in every possible way.
EDIT: i just realized you are the author of the blog you linked to. PLEASE take that post down. it is inaccurate in every possible way.
Hi 21echoes,
I am sorry for your loss. I have deleted everything that I heard from my source.
I am sorry for your loss. I have deleted everything that I heard from my source.
You don't have any contact information listed in your profile and I don't want to get into it in a public discussion but there was no long, detailed suicide note.
Hi Shalmanese, I do have my contact info listed here => http://oobly.com/contact/
In respect for Ilya and those close to him, I have deleted everything that I heard from my source. Sorry for your loss.
In respect for Ilya and those close to him, I have deleted everything that I heard from my source. Sorry for your loss.
what a waste, at 21 and with Diaspora on his resume, he could have gone on to work at Google or Facebook, making $100K-$200K/yr. The skillset was there.
Sure it's not as much as owning the next Facebook...but it's plenty of money to live a comfortable life...and nothing was stopping him from trying again in a few years.
Sure it's not as much as owning the next Facebook...but it's plenty of money to live a comfortable life...and nothing was stopping him from trying again in a few years.
I think you completely misunderstand Ilya. He emphatically did not want to work at Facebook for $100-$200K/year.
Not everyone gets to be a dotcom millionaire...plenty of people have to work for a living. And with his skillset, at least he didn't have to settle for a $20K/yr job flipping burgers.
You're still missing the point. Making millions was obviously not his driving desire. You simply don't build Open Source software if your primary motivation is to make a lot of money.
I think you're still missing the point by focusing on how much he would be earning a year. He may have been perfectly happy with $20k a year making Diaspora- it certainly seems like money was of little concern in his career choices.
He didn't mean he wouldn't want to work at Facebook for 200k because it wouldn't be enough money. He wouldn't want to work there because he was working on replacing Facebook with something more open and morally better.
I think a lot of entrepreneurs would consider it a failure to have to work for facebook or google for a living. It has very little to do with money.
indeed. as an employee, you have a price. you have expectations. as an entrepreneur you have a dream. some entrepreneurs sell out and relinquish their dream. maybe they find a new one. others will never sell out, as a matter of principle. they are uncompromising in that regard.
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I can't say I ever had the impression that profit was a core aim of the Diaspora project; rather it seemed an attempt to create a Free Software social networking platform along the lines of GNU/ Linux.
As you mentioned above, there's really no way for a bunch of near-total strangers to know what led to his suicide, since most of us knew of him only through his internet activity rather than as personal friends or family members. Simplistic cause-and-effect analyses are usually inadequate or outright misleading where suicide is concerned.
As you mentioned above, there's really no way for a bunch of near-total strangers to know what led to his suicide, since most of us knew of him only through his internet activity rather than as personal friends or family members. Simplistic cause-and-effect analyses are usually inadequate or outright misleading where suicide is concerned.
the point is that at 21 and with his skillset, he had quite a comfortable life waiting ahead of him, one that would have been better than 99% of people out there.
I don't care what other things happened in his life, at 21, there is absolutely no valid reason to kill yourself.
I don't care what other things happened in his life, at 21, there is absolutely no valid reason to kill yourself.
to quote David Foster Wallace, “The so-called ‘psychotically depressed’ person who tries to kill herself doesn’t do so out of quote ‘hopelessness’ or any abstract conviction that life’s assets and debits do not square. And surely not because death seems suddenly appealing. The person in whom Its invisible agony reaches a certain unendurable level will kill herself the same way a trapped person will eventually jump from the window of a burning high-rise. Make no mistake about people who leap from burning windows. Their terror of falling from a great height is still just as great as it would be for you or me standing speculatively at the same window just checking out the view; i.e. the fear of falling remains a constant. The variable here is the other terror, the fire’s flames: when the flames get close enough, falling to death becomes the slightly less terrible of two terrors. It’s not desiring the fall; it’s terror of the flames. And yet nobody down on the sidewalk, looking up and yelling ‘Don’t!’ and ‘Hang on!’, can understand the jump. Not really. You’d have to have personally been trapped and felt flames to really understand a terror way beyond falling.”
I agree that there is never a "valid" reason to kill yourself. But don't act like he was so greedy that being internet famous and intelligent wasn't enough for him. Depression hits all kinds of people, and it is simply not something that is affected in a reasonable way by success or failure.
I agree that there is never a "valid" reason to kill yourself. But don't act like he was so greedy that being internet famous and intelligent wasn't enough for him. Depression hits all kinds of people, and it is simply not something that is affected in a reasonable way by success or failure.
As someone who's been there and back, this is an amazing analogy that captures depression extremely well. Thanks for sharing.
Appropriate given that the author also suffered depression and unfortunately took his own life.
Well of course, but who said suicide in these instances is ever a rational act? Mental illness is funny like that.
Having money and a 'comfortable life' from a purely material point of view doesn't exactly imply being happy.
Money can buy an awful lot of things, but not everything.
Money can buy an awful lot of things, but not everything.
You're making the mistake of thinking that wealth is correlated with suicides. In fact, the countries with the highest per-capita suicide rates tend to in Northern and Eastern Europe.
I can't explain why. I think the people there are more melancholy by nature. They also have some of the highest IQs in the world, so maybe there is a correlation there.
Sorry for the tangent, RIP Ilya.
I can't explain why. I think the people there are more melancholy by nature. They also have some of the highest IQs in the world, so maybe there is a correlation there.
Sorry for the tangent, RIP Ilya.
anyone knows how to delete a comment that has replies?
A question, I do not mean to be dramatic. But, is there some type of out-reach program for start-up founders to prevent this sort of thing? Let us admit that founding or working in a start-up is extremely stress-full compared to other work or professional activities.
I know each one of us has a circle of friends that they have cultivated to provide unconditional support so that when they need that its there. But even when you do that you might hit obstacles that even overwhelm that.
I know each one of us has a circle of friends that they have cultivated to provide unconditional support so that when they need that its there. But even when you do that you might hit obstacles that even overwhelm that.
Something along the line of Nuçi's Space, in Athens, GA which provides these types of services for musicians: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuçis_Space
I know each one of us has a circle of friends that they have cultivated to provide unconditional support so that when they need that its there.
This is a fairly strange assumption. Not everyone makes friends easily.
This is a fairly strange assumption. Not everyone makes friends easily.
Especially in early startups where one works alone quite a lot of the time. Very different than getting a job at a company.
Yes, very true. I'm one of those you're talking about. I'm a lone founder, coder, sales team, accountant... I do it all. Alone. And it gets very very depressing even when you're kicking ass and taking names it can get depressing. I have little to no social life, my girlfriend couldn't handle my new lifestyle and left me and no amount of success is enough. It's draining. I'm not antisocial. I'm attractive, outgoing, and well liked but the job becomes you and there are sacrifices. I'm even on the board of a charity organization but that interaction isn't enough (everyone else is much older than me on that board).
So you're right, man. Even when things are looking up it can sneak up on you. I can only imagine what this poor guy went through. He set out to raise $10,000 and exceeded it by far in under 2 weeks, gets thrown into the startup spotlight, the pressure gets intense, and all the while he probably had the mindset of someone doing something much smaller. Not to assume what his thoughts were but it seems like he was just trying to something small and cool and it grew far larger than anyone had anticipated so fast that wasn't enough time to adjust and them that depression snuck in there and now he's gone.
It's so sad. I wonder if the lightning fast growth of Diaspora had anything to do with it. I wonder what effect being in the spotlight can have on someone unprepared for it.
So you're right, man. Even when things are looking up it can sneak up on you. I can only imagine what this poor guy went through. He set out to raise $10,000 and exceeded it by far in under 2 weeks, gets thrown into the startup spotlight, the pressure gets intense, and all the while he probably had the mindset of someone doing something much smaller. Not to assume what his thoughts were but it seems like he was just trying to something small and cool and it grew far larger than anyone had anticipated so fast that wasn't enough time to adjust and them that depression snuck in there and now he's gone.
It's so sad. I wonder if the lightning fast growth of Diaspora had anything to do with it. I wonder what effect being in the spotlight can have on someone unprepared for it.
I sympathize with you. I work on my own 99% of the time and it's a very tough experience. It's the sacrifice one makes for 'the dream'
I'm sometimes jealous of the stories about Mark Zuckerberg and Kevin Rose because at least they had a girlfriend to stick around while they were going through the motions. Loneliness is a killer and I don't think friends/family could possibly understand how difficult it is. Even when you describe it they just shake their heads
I also agree with your assessment as it's something I've reiterated. I think it's possible that if Diaspora never got as much media coverage (and built up expectations), this wouldn't have happened. It may have exploded when it was in beta (or not), but the potential disappointment wouldn't have been as large. It's easy to step back and redefine success but in his shoes, I could imagine myself having very grand visions of what Diaspora could be (as also fostered by the coverage) and being crushed when it's not realized.
I'm sometimes jealous of the stories about Mark Zuckerberg and Kevin Rose because at least they had a girlfriend to stick around while they were going through the motions. Loneliness is a killer and I don't think friends/family could possibly understand how difficult it is. Even when you describe it they just shake their heads
I also agree with your assessment as it's something I've reiterated. I think it's possible that if Diaspora never got as much media coverage (and built up expectations), this wouldn't have happened. It may have exploded when it was in beta (or not), but the potential disappointment wouldn't have been as large. It's easy to step back and redefine success but in his shoes, I could imagine myself having very grand visions of what Diaspora could be (as also fostered by the coverage) and being crushed when it's not realized.
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I didn't know Ilya well, but I did know him. I wish I had known that he was in a bad situation personally that led to this. I wish I could have helped. My last trip to SF in September was really busy and I didn't get to hang out with him. He even offerred me his couch to crash on, but I didn't take him up on the offer.
We meant to do some pair programming back in July, but things got busy and I didn't followup on the invitation. He invited me to an awesome party in April, but I didn't end up going as I'd needed to fly from Ohio there, but I can't help wishing that I'd done it anyway.
So I just feel terrible frankly that I mistakenly turned down interacting with him. Would have we had some conversation that would have changed his opinion on things? Given him some new hope?
Clearly, I know this isn't anyone's fault, but in retrospect its hard not to wish that anyone was able to do more.
I suppose the only thing to do in the future is to always prioritize time with people as the #1 thing. In retrospect, nothing else I could have been doing was more important.