New third-generation Formula E car is fastest ever electric racer(autocar.co.uk)
autocar.co.uk
New third-generation Formula E car is fastest ever electric racer
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/motorsport-formula-e/new-third-generation-formula-e-car-fastest-ever-electric-racer
10 comments
I don't see how you could convince manufacturers to spend way more money on it, especially in the early days when it's not that popular.
Wouldn't the year over year advancement and chaotic competition make it a little more exciting and thus popular?
Would it make it popular enough that the manufacturers would want to participate in an escalating war of money?
> escalating war of money
You mean like literally any other form of automotive racing?
The advantage here is that all that R&D would push for more powerful, lightweight, efficient EV powertrains instead of going into a dead, and largely "solved", problem of ICEs.
You mean like literally any other form of automotive racing?
The advantage here is that all that R&D would push for more powerful, lightweight, efficient EV powertrains instead of going into a dead, and largely "solved", problem of ICEs.
Then don't participate? I don't understand the crab-bucket mentality of setting limits in that context.
Its a dichotomy: if you were allowed free-reign, you'd get innovation and arguably both sides (price and performance) as people went off-piste for parts.
You'd also get loss of safety margins, and therefore increased risk and insurance costs on the organisers and teams.
And in the end, it would come back to price of tech wins, once driver effects are discounted.
Some cheap parts are surprisingly good. The assumption you only increase cost by mandating but automatically get "the best" might be undermined. What if there was a sudden surge of surplus high-Q magnets, and your home-made motor had significantly higher torque, for less weight, and a novel wheel mounting? Getting that kind of thing rated would be a 5+ year exercise in some cases.
(I don't follow F1 in any form, but I remember a lot of nonsense around the time ground effect skirts first came on the scene, and again with winglets, and complaints about driver safety effects on speed...)
You'd also get loss of safety margins, and therefore increased risk and insurance costs on the organisers and teams.
And in the end, it would come back to price of tech wins, once driver effects are discounted.
Some cheap parts are surprisingly good. The assumption you only increase cost by mandating but automatically get "the best" might be undermined. What if there was a sudden surge of surplus high-Q magnets, and your home-made motor had significantly higher torque, for less weight, and a novel wheel mounting? Getting that kind of thing rated would be a 5+ year exercise in some cases.
(I don't follow F1 in any form, but I remember a lot of nonsense around the time ground effect skirts first came on the scene, and again with winglets, and complaints about driver safety effects on speed...)
Yeah, the problem would be the cost. If F1 ever goes all electric you would see this. I suspect Formula E is the test bed to see how close we are getting to viability with electric cars while preserving the F1 format.
I think there has been a lot of value in FE as a technological driver and from a PR perspective. VW/Audi/Porsche committed to it pretty early on, even after repeating forever that they weren't interested in Formula 1 (which of course changed this year...).
Motorsport is a great way to attract talent and drive innovation, but has always been super risky in terms of straight money in/money out. That's why they say, "You know how to make a small fortune in motorsport? Start out with a large one".
Motorsport is a great way to attract talent and drive innovation, but has always been super risky in terms of straight money in/money out. That's why they say, "You know how to make a small fortune in motorsport? Start out with a large one".
Institute a team spending cap.
>maybe entertaining, clumsy, or wacky would be descriptors of FE
"chaotic" is what I'd call it. Something about the presentation and the way they try so hard to focus on the UI/UX being "electric" and fast-paced means that there's an onslaught of motions on the screen for what's not generally amazing racing to begin with.
"chaotic" is what I'd call it. Something about the presentation and the way they try so hard to focus on the UI/UX being "electric" and fast-paced means that there's an onslaught of motions on the screen for what's not generally amazing racing to begin with.
> "chaotic" is what I'd call it. Something about the presentation and the way they try so hard to focus on the UI/UX being "electric" and fast-paced means that there's an onslaught of motions on the screen for what's not generally amazing racing to begin with.
I occasionally watch highlights of FE from time to time [0] to see how the spectacle side of thing have developed, and whether it's stuff like fan boost or attack zone it all makes it feel like a video game from the 90s. Kind of like F-Zero, to be honest.
I think the technology development in EV and battery tech alone is worth it, and more OEMs should invest if only to retain brand awareness rather than a TV or Internet ad that no one will ever watch, but I agree the racing is... mediocre. I don't think it's just because it's mainly F1 'flunkies' but it's more than the racing itself hasn't really found what it wants to be and is really trying to appeal to those whose only racing exposure is from video games rather than club or grass roots racing as it was for the last century. They're approaching an E-sports business model within motorsports, which is odd but lucrative if they can crack the nut.
By contrast Moto-E is actually an incredibly fun watch; the races are much shorter than the ICE but doesn't have any non-sense so as a result riders can just go flat out with out holding anything back which results in a Super Pole race using bikes with full torque at 0 RPM and it's very close [1]. nd has an entirely separate E-sports division which ultimately makes DORNA have sold out races, COVID notwithstanding, and more viewers than ever.
0: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4beCE_OI7k
1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytbSDFgG8CI
I occasionally watch highlights of FE from time to time [0] to see how the spectacle side of thing have developed, and whether it's stuff like fan boost or attack zone it all makes it feel like a video game from the 90s. Kind of like F-Zero, to be honest.
I think the technology development in EV and battery tech alone is worth it, and more OEMs should invest if only to retain brand awareness rather than a TV or Internet ad that no one will ever watch, but I agree the racing is... mediocre. I don't think it's just because it's mainly F1 'flunkies' but it's more than the racing itself hasn't really found what it wants to be and is really trying to appeal to those whose only racing exposure is from video games rather than club or grass roots racing as it was for the last century. They're approaching an E-sports business model within motorsports, which is odd but lucrative if they can crack the nut.
By contrast Moto-E is actually an incredibly fun watch; the races are much shorter than the ICE but doesn't have any non-sense so as a result riders can just go flat out with out holding anything back which results in a Super Pole race using bikes with full torque at 0 RPM and it's very close [1]. nd has an entirely separate E-sports division which ultimately makes DORNA have sold out races, COVID notwithstanding, and more viewers than ever.
0: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4beCE_OI7k
1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytbSDFgG8CI
Yea, I would love it if FE cut the crap and made it "purer". I think that would help the racing and convince people that it's not a joke. There's no reason the racing can't be good.
How do folks actually watch Formula E races, without a cable subscription? The Formula E Youtube channel only ever posts "highlights" through the season, and then waits to the end of the season to post full races to their channel.
I'm a happy F1TV subscriber, and really enjoyed watching some FE races here and there in the past, but it feels like they're going out of their way to make it difficult or pointless to actively watch full races during the season. Is there an "FETV" type of deal similar to F1TV, or do I just have to give up hope of seeing them before the end of the season?
I'm a happy F1TV subscriber, and really enjoyed watching some FE races here and there in the past, but it feels like they're going out of their way to make it difficult or pointless to actively watch full races during the season. Is there an "FETV" type of deal similar to F1TV, or do I just have to give up hope of seeing them before the end of the season?
In the U.S. you have to watch it live on CBS/CBS Sports which means some sort of cable subscription. Paramount+ doesn't even give you access. Also there is no on demand replay, so you either catch it live or not at all. Outside of the U.S. you can watch it on YouTube but it's blocked state side.
Broadcast rights deals ruining UX yet again..
Broadcast rights deals ruining UX yet again..
The US commentary team is so terrible... It has all the energy of a golf tournament.
I really miss Jack and Dario on the world feed.
I really miss Jack and Dario on the world feed.
> Also there is no on demand replay, so you either catch it live or not at all.
You could record it...
Like we always used to do.
You could record it...
Like we always used to do.
Are DVRs still a thing? I thought they added copy-protection to video outputs (like Apple movies won't play on a non-protected display.)
I have Comcast cable and watch it via an HDHomeRun with a cablecard. Only "premium" channels are encrypted and that's mostly just HBO.
I use the "Channels"[1] software to record programs and save them directly onto my NAS.
[1]:https://getchannels.com
Of course, all cable providers also have their own DVRs. And surprisingly, Tivo still exists. https://www.tivo.com
I use the "Channels"[1] software to record programs and save them directly onto my NAS.
[1]:https://getchannels.com
Of course, all cable providers also have their own DVRs. And surprisingly, Tivo still exists. https://www.tivo.com
In the US I have only watched the first couple of seasons on YouTube. The last season, 7, released the full races at the end of last year; which was nice because there was basically no good way to watch in in the US between s2-s6 even with paying imho.
Depends on your local area and broadcaster (just like F1TV); here in the UK, Channel 4 has it either broadcast live on YouTube, or in their 4 On Demand app. (Or both.)
Torrent
Right before the pandemic hit I was invited to go drive some 1st gen Formula E cars. I really regret passing on that.
(I'm told they can be made much more driveable for non-pros)
(I'm told they can be made much more driveable for non-pros)
Genuinely curious, what did you have in the diary that trumped testing early days FE cars?
I would have ditched most everything to drive an FE car, even work, and I have no driving license / interest in F1 (and am 26+).
I would have ditched most everything to drive an FE car, even work, and I have no driving license / interest in F1 (and am 26+).
nothing, it just seemed like a long trip.
i’m not a great driver but i am good enough that most classes and “experienced” are super tedious…
i’m not a great driver but i am good enough that most classes and “experienced” are super tedious…
"Want to drive the fastest electric race car in the world?"
"I'll have to pass, my friends and I are going to Outback Steakhouse"
"I'll have to pass, my friends and I are going to Outback Steakhouse"
I just wept a little
We watch every single F1 race, qualifying and sometimes practice. I have not been able to develop interest in FE.
Racing is a hobby for us, not just something we watch on TV. Every single one of my kids has gone through at least one SCCA driving course (multiple instructor-led days on track at Willow Springs Streets and Big Willow). We are into it, but FE just doesn’t click for some reason. Neither does NASCAR, BTW. At the risk of offending people, turning left for a million laps is just plain stupid. Sorry.
Racing is a hobby for us, not just something we watch on TV. Every single one of my kids has gone through at least one SCCA driving course (multiple instructor-led days on track at Willow Springs Streets and Big Willow). We are into it, but FE just doesn’t click for some reason. Neither does NASCAR, BTW. At the risk of offending people, turning left for a million laps is just plain stupid. Sorry.
A lot of what you've written resonates with how I used to think.
While I don't find NASCAR very interesting, I no longer think of it as "turning left for a million laps", since track position (i.e. high, middle, low) is actually a subtle, tactical game. Also, as I'm sure you know, "turning", in any racing, is never as simple as just turning the wheel; race drivers also use the brakes and throttle to turn, and there's enormous subtlety in this. The skill in NASCAR (or IndyCar oval racing) is in carefully observing your opponents, and noticing the small mistakes they consistently make, which you can then, skillfully, convert into gaining positions. Having said that, I hate the way American broadcasters cover racing, and the biggest draw of NASCAR is absolutely the spectacular crashes, which I'm not a fan of either. So, it's not for me, but I do respect the drivers.
Having said that, yes, FE has a long way to go before they are reliably producing exciting races. But they recently started racing on the same Monaco circuit layout as F1, and that race is reliably more exciting than F1's Monaco GP. If you watch no other FE races, ever, I'll nevertheless recommend watching the Monaco ePrix (dumb name), if only to see how good a race can be around those streets (something F1 will never demonstrate ever again).
While I don't find NASCAR very interesting, I no longer think of it as "turning left for a million laps", since track position (i.e. high, middle, low) is actually a subtle, tactical game. Also, as I'm sure you know, "turning", in any racing, is never as simple as just turning the wheel; race drivers also use the brakes and throttle to turn, and there's enormous subtlety in this. The skill in NASCAR (or IndyCar oval racing) is in carefully observing your opponents, and noticing the small mistakes they consistently make, which you can then, skillfully, convert into gaining positions. Having said that, I hate the way American broadcasters cover racing, and the biggest draw of NASCAR is absolutely the spectacular crashes, which I'm not a fan of either. So, it's not for me, but I do respect the drivers.
Having said that, yes, FE has a long way to go before they are reliably producing exciting races. But they recently started racing on the same Monaco circuit layout as F1, and that race is reliably more exciting than F1's Monaco GP. If you watch no other FE races, ever, I'll nevertheless recommend watching the Monaco ePrix (dumb name), if only to see how good a race can be around those streets (something F1 will never demonstrate ever again).
I’ll look that up. Thanks.
Having substantial on-track experience I think I understand. For example, I definitely use throttle steer to navigate something like the large sweeper at Big Willow while doing 140 mph. The wheel is not a good input for subtlety at speed.
I don’t want to dump on NASCAR too much. I know there’s challenges and strategy. The culture of watching the races for the crashes is absolutely deplorable. Part of me can’t help but think that NASCAR reinforces the stereotype of the lazy American. Everyone sits around an oval stadium while consuming thousands of calories and watches the “race” for the carnage. I just don’t like it. Then again, I come here from a different culture. I don’t like what Americans call “football” (sorry, it isn’t). I played and I am into both rugby and real football.
That is to say, there might be a cultural element to consider.
Having substantial on-track experience I think I understand. For example, I definitely use throttle steer to navigate something like the large sweeper at Big Willow while doing 140 mph. The wheel is not a good input for subtlety at speed.
I don’t want to dump on NASCAR too much. I know there’s challenges and strategy. The culture of watching the races for the crashes is absolutely deplorable. Part of me can’t help but think that NASCAR reinforces the stereotype of the lazy American. Everyone sits around an oval stadium while consuming thousands of calories and watches the “race” for the carnage. I just don’t like it. Then again, I come here from a different culture. I don’t like what Americans call “football” (sorry, it isn’t). I played and I am into both rugby and real football.
That is to say, there might be a cultural element to consider.
> turning left
Small nitpick, NASCAR also races on road courses. COTA, Watkins Glen, and Sonoma, plus a few others. They just raced the Indianapolis road course the day after Indy cars did. Also next year a street race in Chicago is planned.
Small nitpick, NASCAR also races on road courses. COTA, Watkins Glen, and Sonoma, plus a few others. They just raced the Indianapolis road course the day after Indy cars did. Also next year a street race in Chicago is planned.
I really only enjoy watching IMSA. the formula stuff isnt as interesting for reason I cant articulate well
Don't get me wrong, I like Formula E but "fastest ever electric racer" isn't saying much at this point. These things are still pretty slow compared to F1 which is why I think they rarely show exhibitions of them up against each other.
F1 and F3 have been racing on the very same track at Montecarlo since last year. FE is more or less a Formula 3 car there. Then FE has some silly tracks like London last weekend.
To be fair, F1 on a non oval circuit is much faster than anything else. Check the times of F1 and Indycar at COTA.
To be fair, F1 on a non oval circuit is much faster than anything else. Check the times of F1 and Indycar at COTA.
Going deeper on this comparison because I only just remembered it was a comparison we could make:
In the 2022 Monaco E-Prix (FE), the best qualifying lap time was 89.839s [0].
For the 2022 Monaco Grand Prix (F1), the pole was 71.376s [1]. It's worth noting that this is with slower cars than have recently been the case; the same times last year were > 1 second faster.
The top level Formula 3 series (currently FIA International F3, formerly GP3/European F3) doesn't race at Monaco; the last time a top tier F3 championship did race there was GP3 in 2012 (88.008s) [2]. Note that these are 10-year-old cars; current top-tier F3 cars are ~15% faster [3] (at modern Silverstone, which is the only circuit configuration used both years) than they were in 2012.
While GP3/F3 weren't present, Formula Regional European, a Tier 4 series that races in Formula 3 cars did race there; pole was 89.802s [4]. However, these are a lower tier of driver and team; last year, they were 7% slower at Barcelona [5] than FIA F3.
As such, one could argue that current FIA F3 would be a bit (10%?) faster than Formula E cars at Monaco.
On the other hand, this comparison is not quite fair to the electric cars! The chemically-fueled cars do qualifying with as little fuel as possible (to reduce their weight to the minimum), where electric cars have to take the full weight hit of their total energy store during qualifying. The F1 cars can't come anywhere near their qualifying pace until the very end of the race; in theory, a Formula E car would be capable of a qualifying-paced lap at any point during the race. As such, we should also compare Formula 1 cars' paces at the start of the race. Unfortunately for the comparison this year, the F1 race started off wet; the fastest laps around Lap 3 (after the start had cleared) were ~101s [6]. The 2021 Monaco Grand Prix, which was dry, is an easier example: the fastest laps on lap 3 were about 77s [7] , still substantially faster than the FE cars ever get.
To make the Indycar comparison we need to look all the way back to 2019, since Indycar has scrupulously avoided racing at F1 tracks whenever possible, up to and including conspicuously not marketing the Indianapolis road course to F1 (despite its qualifications and history as an F1 track, and the soaring demand for US-based F1 races). In that event, the fastest qualifying lap was 105.454s [8]. For F1, the pole lap of the 2019 US GP was 93.750 [9]. There is a reason Indycar avoids comparisons.
[0] https://formulaspy.com/formula-e/qualifying-results-2022-mon...
[1] https://www.formula1.com/en/results.html/2022/races/1112/mon...
[2] https://motorsportstats.com/results/gp3-series/2012/monaco/c...
[3] https://www.fiaformula3.com/Results?raceid=1032
[4] https://formularegionaleubyalpine.com/corsa/monaco-2022/
[5] https://formularegionaleubyalpine.com/corsa/barcelona-2021/
[6] https://www.racefans.net/2022/05/29/2022-monaco-grand-prix-i...
[7] https://www.racefans.net/2021/05/23/2021-monaco-grand-prix-i...
[8] https://www.indycar.com/results/ntt-indycar-series/2019/indy...
In the 2022 Monaco E-Prix (FE), the best qualifying lap time was 89.839s [0].
For the 2022 Monaco Grand Prix (F1), the pole was 71.376s [1]. It's worth noting that this is with slower cars than have recently been the case; the same times last year were > 1 second faster.
The top level Formula 3 series (currently FIA International F3, formerly GP3/European F3) doesn't race at Monaco; the last time a top tier F3 championship did race there was GP3 in 2012 (88.008s) [2]. Note that these are 10-year-old cars; current top-tier F3 cars are ~15% faster [3] (at modern Silverstone, which is the only circuit configuration used both years) than they were in 2012.
While GP3/F3 weren't present, Formula Regional European, a Tier 4 series that races in Formula 3 cars did race there; pole was 89.802s [4]. However, these are a lower tier of driver and team; last year, they were 7% slower at Barcelona [5] than FIA F3.
As such, one could argue that current FIA F3 would be a bit (10%?) faster than Formula E cars at Monaco.
On the other hand, this comparison is not quite fair to the electric cars! The chemically-fueled cars do qualifying with as little fuel as possible (to reduce their weight to the minimum), where electric cars have to take the full weight hit of their total energy store during qualifying. The F1 cars can't come anywhere near their qualifying pace until the very end of the race; in theory, a Formula E car would be capable of a qualifying-paced lap at any point during the race. As such, we should also compare Formula 1 cars' paces at the start of the race. Unfortunately for the comparison this year, the F1 race started off wet; the fastest laps around Lap 3 (after the start had cleared) were ~101s [6]. The 2021 Monaco Grand Prix, which was dry, is an easier example: the fastest laps on lap 3 were about 77s [7] , still substantially faster than the FE cars ever get.
To make the Indycar comparison we need to look all the way back to 2019, since Indycar has scrupulously avoided racing at F1 tracks whenever possible, up to and including conspicuously not marketing the Indianapolis road course to F1 (despite its qualifications and history as an F1 track, and the soaring demand for US-based F1 races). In that event, the fastest qualifying lap was 105.454s [8]. For F1, the pole lap of the 2019 US GP was 93.750 [9]. There is a reason Indycar avoids comparisons.
[0] https://formulaspy.com/formula-e/qualifying-results-2022-mon...
[1] https://www.formula1.com/en/results.html/2022/races/1112/mon...
[2] https://motorsportstats.com/results/gp3-series/2012/monaco/c...
[3] https://www.fiaformula3.com/Results?raceid=1032
[4] https://formularegionaleubyalpine.com/corsa/monaco-2022/
[5] https://formularegionaleubyalpine.com/corsa/barcelona-2021/
[6] https://www.racefans.net/2022/05/29/2022-monaco-grand-prix-i...
[7] https://www.racefans.net/2021/05/23/2021-monaco-grand-prix-i...
[8] https://www.indycar.com/results/ntt-indycar-series/2019/indy...
https://m.facebook.com/TheStig/videos/drag-race-formula-e-vs...
And F1 compared to McMurtry Spéirling EV at GoodWood
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_-Q7a0hfp-A
And F1 compared to McMurtry Spéirling EV at GoodWood
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_-Q7a0hfp-A
Its definitely not a speed issue, we can make very fast electric cars and the torque and horsepower delivery is vastly superior to a hydrocarbon engine. The problem is energy density. Petrol stores a lot more energy in a smaller space and weight than a battery currently and that accounts for a large amount of the deficit between them for race distances. Still Formula E is improving and it has a future in a net zero world where as the hydrocarbon super cars of F1 likely do not.
That second link is just insane, the way that thing gets going and maintains speed through the corners is out of this world. I wonder what the disturbance in the air behind the middle of the car is, probably dust but it looks a bit strange for that. Or is it sucking itself to the ground (if so then that makes the run a lot less impressive, F1 outlawed that long ago).
They actually brought back ground effect this year with the newest regulation change. The argument was that if cars relied on ground effect for downforce and less on front and rear wings, cars could have an easier time following the car ahead because the turbulent air becomes less of a factor (due to ground effect not being as susceptible as the front wing to turbulent air) and being able to follow more closely makes for better racing. As a fan, I certainly can't complain. The commentators certainly never miss a chance to remind us how good the new regulations are.
Yes, but that's not using fans, or is it?
Not fans exactly, but the Bernoulli principle, which is sufficient to keep the car sucked to the track if the floor is designed in a specific way [0][1]
[0] https://motorsport-magazine.s3.eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/wp-co...
[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_effect_(cars)
[0] https://motorsport-magazine.s3.eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/wp-co...
[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_effect_(cars)
Yes, but that only works above a minimum speed, fans work all the time so that is why that electric car in the video moves like it is on rails. If that F1 car had had fans it would likely be just as fast, the difference is minimal as it is.
> And F1 compared to McMurtry Spéirling EV at GoodWood
A 23-year old F1 car - for whatever reason, the FIA doesn't let the teams do timed runs at Goodwood anymore.
It'd be neat if they took their car for a test at a track where F1 races.
A 23-year old F1 car - for whatever reason, the FIA doesn't let the teams do timed runs at Goodwood anymore.
It'd be neat if they took their car for a test at a track where F1 races.
Due to FIA regulations you can't assume newer F1 cars are always faster.
Due to recorded lap times on race tracks, you very certainly can. They're not in the same league.
There's always the argument that some obvious engine power restrictions in the rules could be worked around to make any given race car faster (Porsche with the 919 recently showed how spectacular the results of that tinkering can be), but the number of extreme improvements to F1 cars over the last 23 years in every area (aero, tires, brakes, engine, electronics, whatever) is something to contemplate.
There is some very low hanging fruit you could grab involving use of the battery and DRS if you wanted to ignore the rules and make a 2022 F1 car faster over one lap for the purposes of this comparison, so there's also that...
There's always the argument that some obvious engine power restrictions in the rules could be worked around to make any given race car faster (Porsche with the 919 recently showed how spectacular the results of that tinkering can be), but the number of extreme improvements to F1 cars over the last 23 years in every area (aero, tires, brakes, engine, electronics, whatever) is something to contemplate.
There is some very low hanging fruit you could grab involving use of the battery and DRS if you wanted to ignore the rules and make a 2022 F1 car faster over one lap for the purposes of this comparison, so there's also that...
That car got pole at Brazil with a 76.568-second lap. Last year, the pole lap was 67.934 seconds; I think it's safe to say a modern F1 car would be substantially faster at Goodwood too (almost certainly fast enough to make up the difference in lap times.
Volkswagen ID.R on Pike's Peak?
Formula 1 is designed under very very strict, often year specific, rules, from aerodynamics, suspension, to max power capability. I'm not sure it's fair to compare them, since the context is so different. In that video (6:13), they even admit that's the main advantage: the unregulated freedom of the design.
A better comparison would be a Volkswagen ID.R with an ICE compared to an electric Volkswagen ID.R. At this point in the tech, the ICE will almost certainly win.
A better comparison would be a Volkswagen ID.R with an ICE compared to an electric Volkswagen ID.R. At this point in the tech, the ICE will almost certainly win.
I think the ID.R holds the overall record at Pike's Peak, ICE or otherwise.
Yeap, beating the previous record by 16 seconds, 7:57.148 vs 8:13.378 [1]. The previous record holder being a Peugeot 208 [2], with the aerodynamics of a brick, but with 875hp and weighing 325kg less than the ID.R. ID.R has 671hp at ~1200kg.
It's also the second fastest at Nurburgring, behind by 45 seconds, 6:05.336 vs 5:19.546 [3].
It's an incredible car!
1. https://www.thedrive.com/accelerator/21731/volkswagen-i-d-r-...
2. https://www.supercars.net/blog/2013-peugeot-208-t16-pikes-pe...
3. https://www.autoweek.com/news/green-cars/a2140371/volkswagen...
It's also the second fastest at Nurburgring, behind by 45 seconds, 6:05.336 vs 5:19.546 [3].
It's an incredible car!
1. https://www.thedrive.com/accelerator/21731/volkswagen-i-d-r-...
2. https://www.supercars.net/blog/2013-peugeot-208-t16-pikes-pe...
3. https://www.autoweek.com/news/green-cars/a2140371/volkswagen...
haha suck it, internal combustion engine cars.
That car is solidly in the 'blink and you've missed it' category. There is a recording of the record attempt with snippets of comments from people watching in person and it is essentially a multiple minutes long string of expletives.
ICEs are lighter than electric ones, formula 1 will always be faster than anything.
I really have a hard time liking formula e, the lack of engine sound takes away lots of excitement.
I really have a hard time liking formula e, the lack of engine sound takes away lots of excitement.
FWIW the Mugen TT Electric Motorcycles sounds pretty sweet up close:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7-O5c9NM0w&t=120s
Like a small cruise missile powered by a turbofan mounted on two wheels.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7-O5c9NM0w&t=120s
Like a small cruise missile powered by a turbofan mounted on two wheels.
On the contrary, I think it's really amazing to have silent racing cars!
Racecars are only really slowed down by two things.. budget and rules. Every year the cars get faster as teams budgets optimize the rule sets more and more. Often rules are created to slow the cars down, and to limit spending. If you let people spend unlimited money and have totally open rules, very quickly you'd have cars so fast they are completely unsafe on the tracks they are designated to race on.
MotogGP for example has tightened rules basically every few years to lower the gap between the top tier teams and the low budget teams, and to slow the bikes down. Even with that, the bikes top speeds are still rising and talk of unsafe speeds at certain corners grows every year.
If you just allowed 20% larger engine sizes and custom traction control, and variable aero, bike speeds would rise so high people would die every few races instead of every few years.
MotogGP for example has tightened rules basically every few years to lower the gap between the top tier teams and the low budget teams, and to slow the bikes down. Even with that, the bikes top speeds are still rising and talk of unsafe speeds at certain corners grows every year.
If you just allowed 20% larger engine sizes and custom traction control, and variable aero, bike speeds would rise so high people would die every few races instead of every few years.
The other thing that slows them down is the need for a meaty human in the cockpit. A fan car (creating downforce by pulling the car to the ground) can go faster than a human driver could reasonably sustain without passing out in the corners
That would be a heck of a suction to help a car produce several Gs.
'Fan cars' give more traction for sure.. I'm not so sure about pass out levels of traction.
It's definitely possible. This 2001 CART race was cancelled due to concerns about driver safety because of high sustained g-forces. And that was just an open wheel racer like an Indy car.
> There was fear of the possibility that drivers could suffer "grey-outs" or lose consciousness from g-LOC. It is also likely that the high g-loads would have been outside the design limits for the HANS device, which was required for all CART races at oval tracks.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firestone_Firehawk_600
> There was fear of the possibility that drivers could suffer "grey-outs" or lose consciousness from g-LOC. It is also likely that the high g-loads would have been outside the design limits for the HANS device, which was required for all CART races at oval tracks.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firestone_Firehawk_600
The cars already produce 4-5 G when braking and in higher speed corners.
The Silverstone Esses are about 5.2G in a Formula 1 car, and they repeat that experience 50 times on a racing Sunday. I think Copse and Stowe are very intense G-wise as well.
No wonder F1 drivers have necks as big as their head.
No wonder F1 drivers have necks as big as their head.
A fan car works with ground effect. F1 regulations constantly fiddle with the floor to keep ground effect in check.
Seems you got downvoted. No idea why. You are right on. I am pretty sure you could build cars that a human driver couldn’t drive because of acceleration in turns and braking.
I think a good way to do EV racing would be to use batteries with relatively small capacities, but very high power density. (Maybe supercaps?) There'd be a section of the track where the car can recharge without stopping by making physical contact with overhead lines or metal plates embedded in the road or something like that.
The battery would have enough capacity to do maybe a couple laps. So, you could slow down in the "charging section" to fully charge, or you could go faster or pass the slow cars by bypassing the charging section altogether, but then you'd have to budget your energy more carefully and maybe have to spend longer charging next lap.
It'd be interesting to set up a track like this for racing radio-controlled cars.
The battery would have enough capacity to do maybe a couple laps. So, you could slow down in the "charging section" to fully charge, or you could go faster or pass the slow cars by bypassing the charging section altogether, but then you'd have to budget your energy more carefully and maybe have to spend longer charging next lap.
It'd be interesting to set up a track like this for racing radio-controlled cars.
Would kind of be like FZero in this regard. I think this would be interesting. Interested to see where F1 goes with their power spec. I think they could do with more power, but they will probably stick with some kind of hybrid setup for at least the next decade or more.
Supercapacitors have several orders of magnitude less energy density.
What might make more sense is a modular battery.
What might make more sense is a modular battery.
That is true, but they also have several orders of magnitude higher power density. Maybe the battery technology to make this work just doesn't exist -- I'm imagining something that can absorb enough energy in, say, ten seconds or less, to make it around the track a couple times. Lithium ion can store huge amounts of energy, but charge times are slow. Capacitors can charge very quickly, but have very little capacity. I don't know if there's some technology that splits the difference. Lithium Titanate? Solid state batteries?
The comment said power density, and supercapacitors have almost 10x the power density.
The energy density hit is between 1 and 2 orders of magnitude, not several.
You could run a lap on supercapacitors alone. Or make it so most of the power comes from supercaps so that there's a bit more endurance and running low is a bit less harsh.
The energy density hit is between 1 and 2 orders of magnitude, not several.
You could run a lap on supercapacitors alone. Or make it so most of the power comes from supercaps so that there's a bit more endurance and running low is a bit less harsh.
i'd like to see how this would be achieved, putting a rail in the ground would be very expensive and overhead catenary would be hilarious (just imagine a formula 1 car with a pantograph) but equally impractical.
For a track it could be something like a long metal plate embedded in the road that you drive over with a parallel long metal plate suspended above the track; one side is positively charged and the other side is negative.
Since all the cars are basically the same size, the "pantograph" might only stick up a few inches.
A somewhat more complex system might have power and ground rails embedded in slots in the road surface, and there's something on the bottom of the car that drops a conductor into the slots. There's a test of that kind of system being done in Norway or Sweden (I forget which) on a public road.
Since all the cars are basically the same size, the "pantograph" might only stick up a few inches.
A somewhat more complex system might have power and ground rails embedded in slots in the road surface, and there's something on the bottom of the car that drops a conductor into the slots. There's a test of that kind of system being done in Norway or Sweden (I forget which) on a public road.
Weirdly, the article links to all of the competitors _except_ one: Mahindra, the Indian automaker.
For completeness, here's their site: https://www.mahindraracing.com/
For completeness, here's their site: https://www.mahindraracing.com/
Formula E fascinates me by taking cues from video games and translating them into their races: (quoting their web site)
Introduced for the 2018/19 season was ATTACK MODE, which lets every driver pick up an extra hit of power at their own risk. To fire up ATTACK MODE, drivers will need to arm their car, drive off the racing line, and through the Activation Zone. As a reward for taking a slower line through the corner, they’ll be able to collect an extra 30kW of power. Drivers that secure the extra speed, can use it for a few laps when they want to race harder, giving them the edge to keep ahead of the competition.
On top of that, there's FANBOOST - your chance to impact the race. The five drivers who receive the highly-acclaimed FANBOOST – as voted for by you, the fans - are awarded a significant burst of power, which they can deploy in a five-second window during the second half of the race. You can vote to FANBOOST your favourite driver in the week prior to, and leading up to 15 minutes into, each race.
Introduced for the 2018/19 season was ATTACK MODE, which lets every driver pick up an extra hit of power at their own risk. To fire up ATTACK MODE, drivers will need to arm their car, drive off the racing line, and through the Activation Zone. As a reward for taking a slower line through the corner, they’ll be able to collect an extra 30kW of power. Drivers that secure the extra speed, can use it for a few laps when they want to race harder, giving them the edge to keep ahead of the competition.
On top of that, there's FANBOOST - your chance to impact the race. The five drivers who receive the highly-acclaimed FANBOOST – as voted for by you, the fans - are awarded a significant burst of power, which they can deploy in a five-second window during the second half of the race. You can vote to FANBOOST your favourite driver in the week prior to, and leading up to 15 minutes into, each race.
Attack mode I find really interesting, from a racecraft (and yeah, also from a game design) perspective, since it actually presents a choice with real tradeoffs: the driver has to completely sacrifice a corner, choosing to take the longest/slowest line through that corner, in order to gain a temporary boost in engine wattage, which they can strategically deploy later on. Very cool.
Fan boost is... uninteresting. It's bringing elements from game shows, not video games, and rewards the drivers who spend the most time and effort on influencer behavior. This is excusable, I suppose, for the sake of increasing the sport's profile. But it definitely doesn't help make the racing any better or more entertaining for people who are racing fans, rather than fans of a specific driver.
Fan boost is... uninteresting. It's bringing elements from game shows, not video games, and rewards the drivers who spend the most time and effort on influencer behavior. This is excusable, I suppose, for the sake of increasing the sport's profile. But it definitely doesn't help make the racing any better or more entertaining for people who are racing fans, rather than fans of a specific driver.
I’m probably being really negative but that is probably why I’ve never been interested in FE despite being a huge motorsport fan who also weirdly is very anti-car in my daily life. FE just seems so silly and contrived.
The few races I watched were just silly. The tracks were so narrow and had too many 90 degree turns, it was just painful to watch. No flow. Nothing interesting happening.
That's a problem of electric technology not being good enough to have a Formula E race at Spa or Monza that lasts more than a few laps. But I think that's the goal of the series, and they're slowly moving closer and closer to that goal.
I'm not watching yet, but I'm optimistic about its future.
I'm not watching yet, but I'm optimistic about its future.
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They should go all in and make them self driving as well.
There was Roborace [https://roborace.com/] which seemed to be closely aligned with FE once, but seems to have just been a bullshit promotional exercise.
If you think about all the progress that was made during the group B and early formula 1 days and look at the regulations that were in play at the time, it seems like opening up the regulations in Formula E would make a lot of sense.