Why You Should Move To Berlin(maneeshsethi.com)
maneeshsethi.com
Why You Should Move To Berlin
http://maneeshsethi.com/blog/7-reasons-you-should-move-to-berlin-today/
31 comments
I love Berlin, but please let's cut the hyperbole:
Beautiful nature, lakes, canals, and parks
It's a pretty city, in some parts, but "Europe's greenest city" is just bullshit. And maybe technically there are more canals than in Venice and Amsterdam, but in reality you'll find that you have to walk quite a bit to get from one canal to the next, where in Venice and Amsterdam they are a defining part of the city.
Berlin’s central location makes it easy to travel around Europe
Around Eastern Europe, yes. Travelling to the UK, France, Spain, Italy, or Switzerland is easier from other parts of the continent.
The amazing, delicious döner kebabs
I like kebabs as much as the next guy and it's probably true that you can get the best ones in Berlin, but let's be honest, it's drunk food and often made from questionable ingredients.
That said, there really is lots of awesome food in Berlin in all price categories and from all the cuisines of the world. In fact, eating out in Berlin is such a great experience in general that I'm not sure why kebabs deserve special mention.
Again, I love Berlin and maneesh's other points hold true, I just don't think it needs to be glorified beyond what it is -- a wonderful, amazing city that isn't the most pretty one and isn't really the very best location in Europe in terms of climate and travelling options.
@maneesh: don't take this the wrong way, glad to hear you've had a great time, sounds like a lot of fun!
Beautiful nature, lakes, canals, and parks
It's a pretty city, in some parts, but "Europe's greenest city" is just bullshit. And maybe technically there are more canals than in Venice and Amsterdam, but in reality you'll find that you have to walk quite a bit to get from one canal to the next, where in Venice and Amsterdam they are a defining part of the city.
Berlin’s central location makes it easy to travel around Europe
Around Eastern Europe, yes. Travelling to the UK, France, Spain, Italy, or Switzerland is easier from other parts of the continent.
The amazing, delicious döner kebabs
I like kebabs as much as the next guy and it's probably true that you can get the best ones in Berlin, but let's be honest, it's drunk food and often made from questionable ingredients.
That said, there really is lots of awesome food in Berlin in all price categories and from all the cuisines of the world. In fact, eating out in Berlin is such a great experience in general that I'm not sure why kebabs deserve special mention.
Again, I love Berlin and maneesh's other points hold true, I just don't think it needs to be glorified beyond what it is -- a wonderful, amazing city that isn't the most pretty one and isn't really the very best location in Europe in terms of climate and travelling options.
@maneesh: don't take this the wrong way, glad to hear you've had a great time, sounds like a lot of fun!
I think you've got it wrong.
I live in a 1750 square foot penthouse apartment (two floors, 14' ceilings, hardwood throughout), with easy access to two different subway lines (U8 and the S41/42 ring). I can be anywhere in the inhabited part of the city in under 25 minutes.
I pay $1400/month. That's $9/sqft/year, or $0.80/sqft/month. Did I mention that's including heat?
Berlin is a world-class city. There are several authorized Apple service centers (and they're building an Apple Store right now), Canon service centers, and big box retailers. There are great restaurants and hotels and conference centers and such because it's the federal capital, and all the embassies and consulates are here, this country being the largest economy in the EU.
I defy you to find me another city in the first world where one can live so cheaply, with access to the benefits of a truly world-class city such as Berlin has. It's simply not possible (and indeed, in the trendiest parts of town, rents have gone up 100% in the last 5-7 years).
It won't last, but we've got at least 3-7 years left before it turns into another stuffy expensive boring German city.
I live in a 1750 square foot penthouse apartment (two floors, 14' ceilings, hardwood throughout), with easy access to two different subway lines (U8 and the S41/42 ring). I can be anywhere in the inhabited part of the city in under 25 minutes.
I pay $1400/month. That's $9/sqft/year, or $0.80/sqft/month. Did I mention that's including heat?
Berlin is a world-class city. There are several authorized Apple service centers (and they're building an Apple Store right now), Canon service centers, and big box retailers. There are great restaurants and hotels and conference centers and such because it's the federal capital, and all the embassies and consulates are here, this country being the largest economy in the EU.
I defy you to find me another city in the first world where one can live so cheaply, with access to the benefits of a truly world-class city such as Berlin has. It's simply not possible (and indeed, in the trendiest parts of town, rents have gone up 100% in the last 5-7 years).
It won't last, but we've got at least 3-7 years left before it turns into another stuffy expensive boring German city.
"3-7 years left"
Check the date on this: http://catandgirl.com/?p=1129
I've got a couple grand and weeks for traveling. When and what's good?
Check the date on this: http://catandgirl.com/?p=1129
I've got a couple grand and weeks for traveling. When and what's good?
Yeah, it's been here for the last 8 or 9 years, ever since New York got all cleaned up and destroyed its techno scene.
Examples include Hawtin, Adam X, Function, Plaslaiko, Visionquest, etc - the list goes on.
It truly is an amazing city... and yes, it does move around.
Examples include Hawtin, Adam X, Function, Plaslaiko, Visionquest, etc - the list goes on.
It truly is an amazing city... and yes, it does move around.
Are you an American citizen?
Can you do this if you are?
If I say... just wanted to move to Berlin; how would I do it? How do you get paid? How do the taxes work?
Can you do this if you are?
If I say... just wanted to move to Berlin; how would I do it? How do you get paid? How do the taxes work?
The US is the only country (that I know of) that requires its citizens to pay taxes earned abroad, even if living abroad full-time.
That's one thing to keep in mind - you'll likely be paying the additional taxes.
That's one thing to keep in mind - you'll likely be paying the additional taxes.
[deleted]
They give tax deductions both for a) paying foreign taxes and b) being physically absent from the country.
Read about the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion here: http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/international/article/0,...
Read about the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion here: http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/international/article/0,...
Everywhere else doesn't even make you file and a bill has already been introduced to take away these exemptions (they offensively claim they can "save" money by removing these exemptions).
Also, I believe that there's some setup so that the credit is one-way, or you have to pay the larger of the two. In any case, it usually ends up being that you pay no less in taxes to the US, and then you may get taxed for the foreign country on top of that.
Berlin’s central location makes it easy to travel around Europe
Yup, that would be Frankfurt. A new Berlin airport is being built but the last time I read about it it was quite delayed.
Yup, that would be Frankfurt. A new Berlin airport is being built but the last time I read about it it was quite delayed.
>It's a pretty city, in some parts, but "Europe's greenest city" is just bullshit. And maybe technically there are more canals than in Venice and Amsterdam, but in reality you'll find that you have to walk quite a bit to get from one canal to the next, where in Venice and Amsterdam they are a defining part of the city.
I grew up in Berlin, when the wall was still up (it came down when I was in the 4th grade, and we left the summer after I finished 5th grade). We flew out of the city to spend major holidays with family back in the states, but in the eleven years I lived there, I left the city via ground transportation exactly three times (all for class trips). Despite hardly ever leaving the city, I regularly went on camping trips with the scouts where it felt like I was in the middle of the wilderness. I also regularly went on walks through sections of the Grünewald (forest/parkland) near my home, and could get so far in that city noise would completely disappear. People would get lost in the Grünewald in the winter and wander around for days before either finally stumbling out onto a street, dying of exposure, or being killed by wild boars. I don't know any other city on Earth that contains such large tracts of wildlands inside the city.
As for the canals, they're completely different. They are best enjoyed via river boat cruises, not on walks.
>I like kebabs as much as the next guy and it's probably true that you can get the best ones in Berlin, but let's be honest, it's drunk food and often made from questionable ingredients.
I was way too young to be drinking when I lived in Berlin, but they were still my favorite food. I've been back since, and have consumed them both drunk and sober as an adult, and still think that Berliner Dönners are one of the best foods on Earth. I've been all over the world, and I've never had a Dönner Kebab that stacks up to the ones in Berlin. I've eaten Dönner Kebabs and equivalents (Shwarma, Gyros, etc.) all over the middle east and mediteranean (Turkey, Greece, Israel, Bahrain, Dubai, etc.), places where you would expect the Kebabs to be better, but they're not as good as in Berlin. The only thing that came close were some Shwarma I bought from a Lebanese cafe in Cyprus.
There are some things I don't like about Berlin. The biggest is that the public transportation is dirty, and in some places unsafe at certain hours. When I grew up there, the public transportation was clean and safe (as a grade-schooler, I was allowed to range all over the city with my friends, riding the buses and subways with no adult supervision). When I went back to visit for the first time a few years later, I was shocked at how dirty and poorly-kept they had become.
I grew up in Berlin, when the wall was still up (it came down when I was in the 4th grade, and we left the summer after I finished 5th grade). We flew out of the city to spend major holidays with family back in the states, but in the eleven years I lived there, I left the city via ground transportation exactly three times (all for class trips). Despite hardly ever leaving the city, I regularly went on camping trips with the scouts where it felt like I was in the middle of the wilderness. I also regularly went on walks through sections of the Grünewald (forest/parkland) near my home, and could get so far in that city noise would completely disappear. People would get lost in the Grünewald in the winter and wander around for days before either finally stumbling out onto a street, dying of exposure, or being killed by wild boars. I don't know any other city on Earth that contains such large tracts of wildlands inside the city.
As for the canals, they're completely different. They are best enjoyed via river boat cruises, not on walks.
>I like kebabs as much as the next guy and it's probably true that you can get the best ones in Berlin, but let's be honest, it's drunk food and often made from questionable ingredients.
I was way too young to be drinking when I lived in Berlin, but they were still my favorite food. I've been back since, and have consumed them both drunk and sober as an adult, and still think that Berliner Dönners are one of the best foods on Earth. I've been all over the world, and I've never had a Dönner Kebab that stacks up to the ones in Berlin. I've eaten Dönner Kebabs and equivalents (Shwarma, Gyros, etc.) all over the middle east and mediteranean (Turkey, Greece, Israel, Bahrain, Dubai, etc.), places where you would expect the Kebabs to be better, but they're not as good as in Berlin. The only thing that came close were some Shwarma I bought from a Lebanese cafe in Cyprus.
There are some things I don't like about Berlin. The biggest is that the public transportation is dirty, and in some places unsafe at certain hours. When I grew up there, the public transportation was clean and safe (as a grade-schooler, I was allowed to range all over the city with my friends, riding the buses and subways with no adult supervision). When I went back to visit for the first time a few years later, I was shocked at how dirty and poorly-kept they had become.
100% agreement on the dönner kebabs. The critical mass of Germanized Turks going back a few generations seems to be the key ingredient.
I spent a year in Berlin then came back to the US. Good luck finding a street style dönner in the US.
I spent a year in Berlin then came back to the US. Good luck finding a street style dönner in the US.
Couldn't read the article as the server is overloaded. But I have some thoughts about the headline. This may contain some hyperbole, you have been warned.
I don't understand Berlins appeal. It has one fatal flaw: no industry. In my opinion the great parts of Germany are where the world-famous "Mittelstand" sits. Is that in Berlin? I would argue it's not. Berlin is called "the city of students, the unemployed and cab drivers" by many, and probably not without reason.
Berlin is our hipster-central. However German engineers much prefer the living standards of Bavaria or BW instead of getting their Audi/BMW/Merc torched and their property vandalized. You're not getting lots of these people to move to Berlin. Big (US) IT corps know this, almost all of them have their headquarters in the south.
Now, if you're after 20somethings with no family, low income expectations and you build webapps using $WhateverIsCoolOnHN that targets other 20somethings around the globe - sure, go to Berlin. But then why don't you start wherever you are and get going instead of looking for another excuse that delays your product?
If your business plan even remotely involves selling goods or services to companies, you've chosen the wrong spot of Germany. The same is true for finances, Berlin is constantly broke and banks cling on to their money for obvious reasons.
And if your business plan involves pushing lots of data, you should be in Frankfurt.
I don't understand Berlins appeal. It has one fatal flaw: no industry. In my opinion the great parts of Germany are where the world-famous "Mittelstand" sits. Is that in Berlin? I would argue it's not. Berlin is called "the city of students, the unemployed and cab drivers" by many, and probably not without reason.
Berlin is our hipster-central. However German engineers much prefer the living standards of Bavaria or BW instead of getting their Audi/BMW/Merc torched and their property vandalized. You're not getting lots of these people to move to Berlin. Big (US) IT corps know this, almost all of them have their headquarters in the south.
Now, if you're after 20somethings with no family, low income expectations and you build webapps using $WhateverIsCoolOnHN that targets other 20somethings around the globe - sure, go to Berlin. But then why don't you start wherever you are and get going instead of looking for another excuse that delays your product?
If your business plan even remotely involves selling goods or services to companies, you've chosen the wrong spot of Germany. The same is true for finances, Berlin is constantly broke and banks cling on to their money for obvious reasons.
And if your business plan involves pushing lots of data, you should be in Frankfurt.
I spent a month in Berlin last year with the idea of possibly staying there longer-term. I had a great time there, and I might go back, but it does seem to be a young person's culture. It would be an amazing place to be 20-25.
Try google cache
Well, don't you sound bitter and boring.
I'd guess you're one of the 20somethings he's talking about, right?
As someone who lives in Berlin for more than 4 years, involved in IT, I can definitely says he is 100% right. I would say Munich is the place to if you want do to something in this industry.
As someone who lives in Berlin for more than 4 years, involved in IT, I can definitely says he is 100% right. I would say Munich is the place to if you want do to something in this industry.
Munich, Stuttgart, Hamburg or Hanover. I am a postdoc in CS who is looking to get into industry and my wife is in manufacturing. As much as we wish to go to Berlin, it is very difficult for her to find a relevant job in manufacturing there.
All our German friends have recommended us Stuttgart as the place to be for industry.
All our German friends have recommended us Stuttgart as the place to be for industry.
Funny, most people i talked to and who worked in Munich, find it horrible, mostly the people :P
I always say, if not Berlin (born here, live here, love it) i'd only consider going to Hamburg in Germany.
Overall i think what is most appealing about Berlin is the multicultural and historic (east-west) diversity it has. Berlin certainly is sort of dirty but that's also part of its character.
Also, especially for IT and start ups Berlin is perfect (it doesn't matter to live in the industry heavy south for IT! and the cheap rents are certainly appealing here).
I always say, if not Berlin (born here, live here, love it) i'd only consider going to Hamburg in Germany.
Overall i think what is most appealing about Berlin is the multicultural and historic (east-west) diversity it has. Berlin certainly is sort of dirty but that's also part of its character.
Also, especially for IT and start ups Berlin is perfect (it doesn't matter to live in the industry heavy south for IT! and the cheap rents are certainly appealing here).
I've never heard a German not from Bavaria recommend living in Munich! Among my German friends (both in IT and elsewhere) it has the reputation of being the place for Bavarians, CSU-voting conservatives, and tourists looking for Oktoberfest and lederhosen. I think they're particularly annoyed that Americans' image of what Germany is like is so heavily based on Bavaria, too.
Their recommendation if you want to make a lot of money is to live in southern Baden-Württemberg and commute across the border to Switzerland, or if you want culture, to live in Berlin...
Their recommendation if you want to make a lot of money is to live in southern Baden-Württemberg and commute across the border to Switzerland, or if you want culture, to live in Berlin...
No, I'm in my thirties and have also lived in Berlin, and am also a German citizen. Thanks though
I live near Berlin.
There is much wisdom in this essay on startups written by Paul Graham in 2006:
http://www.paulgraham.com/siliconvalley.html
Quote: "I think you only need two kinds of people to create a technology hub: rich people and nerds. "
Regarding Nerds: There are certainly a lot of nerds in Berlin. Are they elite technology geeks? Maybe. But lots of such nerds are willing to move to Berlin. Check passed.
Regarding Rich people/investors: There are actually relatively few rich people in Berlin. (Berlin is so cheap for a reason: it is a very poor city). So this key success factor is still underrepresented. Check NOT passed.
Just sayin'.
Don't expect too much.
http://www.paulgraham.com/siliconvalley.html
Quote: "I think you only need two kinds of people to create a technology hub: rich people and nerds. "
Regarding Nerds: There are certainly a lot of nerds in Berlin. Are they elite technology geeks? Maybe. But lots of such nerds are willing to move to Berlin. Check passed.
Regarding Rich people/investors: There are actually relatively few rich people in Berlin. (Berlin is so cheap for a reason: it is a very poor city). So this key success factor is still underrepresented. Check NOT passed.
Just sayin'.
Don't expect too much.
I live in Munich and just the opposite is true -- well, sort of. We've got lots of nerds and plenty of money but not much entrepreneurial activity. Too sedentary -- but why?
Good question. I'm a Berliner but am currently "stuck" (long story) in Munich. It's got everything: stuff just works, everything's clean, safe and pretty, lots of money around, and one of the best technical universities in Germany to boot. And yet, and yet, something is missing.
From what little I know, it appears that the more "dynamic" people move to Berlin to entreprendre something, and the less adventurous (dare I say "corporate"-type) ones stay or come here to work for BMW et al. This is regardless of their talent or capability, btw, it's just my subjective impression of personality types.
As for me, I'm torn between my old hometown and Zurich so Munich might be a good compromise even if I get unstuck but we'll see ;-)
From what little I know, it appears that the more "dynamic" people move to Berlin to entreprendre something, and the less adventurous (dare I say "corporate"-type) ones stay or come here to work for BMW et al. This is regardless of their talent or capability, btw, it's just my subjective impression of personality types.
As for me, I'm torn between my old hometown and Zurich so Munich might be a good compromise even if I get unstuck but we'll see ;-)
You are completely right -- and it's really too bad because some combination of the two would be ideal. I wonder if it is easier to start a "startup culture" in Munich or a "get stuff working" culture in Berlin. I guess since I'm also "stuck" in Munich for the moment myself I'd prefer to work on moving things forward in here (hosting hackathons, etc.)
btw, what makes you think Zurich would be better?
btw, what makes you think Zurich would be better?
> what makes you think Zurich would be better?
Zurich is just a personal preference because I studied and lived a long time in Switzerland. If you drew a cultural and demographic vector from Berlin through Munich to Zurich, you'd have a pretty good picture of what Zurich is like. If that sounds like a mixed bag, that's because it is. ;-) Even richer, even better working, but also even stuffier. I love it there but that's because many of my friends are there.
What is true, though, is that Switzerland has a better business culture and regulatory/tax environment. People work quite hard, they are very rational and pragmatic in business matters, and the universities there are, unlike the German ones, truly world class. I'd also wager, although I've not (yet?) tried myself, that it will be easier to raise capital from Swiss investors than from Munich-based ones (and Berlin, as someone already mentioned, doesn't really have serious capital floating around).
It's all a wash though, I'm sure that these generalities have marginal impact on whatever you or I do or decide. At the end of the day, sitting in Munich, you're a productive 4h train ride away from Zurich and a 6h train ride from Berlin.
Zurich is just a personal preference because I studied and lived a long time in Switzerland. If you drew a cultural and demographic vector from Berlin through Munich to Zurich, you'd have a pretty good picture of what Zurich is like. If that sounds like a mixed bag, that's because it is. ;-) Even richer, even better working, but also even stuffier. I love it there but that's because many of my friends are there.
What is true, though, is that Switzerland has a better business culture and regulatory/tax environment. People work quite hard, they are very rational and pragmatic in business matters, and the universities there are, unlike the German ones, truly world class. I'd also wager, although I've not (yet?) tried myself, that it will be easier to raise capital from Swiss investors than from Munich-based ones (and Berlin, as someone already mentioned, doesn't really have serious capital floating around).
It's all a wash though, I'm sure that these generalities have marginal impact on whatever you or I do or decide. At the end of the day, sitting in Munich, you're a productive 4h train ride away from Zurich and a 6h train ride from Berlin.
Simple: because everybody already has a good job. Golden handcuffs...
I used to live in Munich and now I live in Berlin. I still miss Munich. But it is easier to find people trying something new in Berlin.
I used to live in Munich and now I live in Berlin. I still miss Munich. But it is easier to find people trying something new in Berlin.
Maybe bureaucracy?
When I think about starting a company in Germany, the amount of paperwork I'd have to file is the first thing that comes to mind.
When I think about starting a company in Germany, the amount of paperwork I'd have to file is the first thing that comes to mind.
Berlin is an awesome city, I had the chance to spend a week or so there a few years back and it's one of the few places I would consider moving overseas to live.
There is a big difference though between west berlin and the ex-communist east berlin , for one thing expect to pay around twice as much for a beer in west as in east.
The public transport system as well as any municipal services we used whilst there were a model of legendary German efficiency, not to mention cheap as transport is subsidized by the state.
The nightlife is excellent but I certainly advise chatting to the local partygoers (most are friendly enough) as they will know the more cool out of the way places to go.
Beer is also very cheap in east berlin , especially from supermarkets and drinking it on the streets or public transport is not the taboo that it is in the UK and other places.
The general vibe of the nightlife I experienced was quite different to Britain with much more sensibly paced drinking going on throughout the night and a generally social , jovial atmosphere unlike UK Cities which seem to cater increasingly to insular gangs of drunks who go out ingest large amounts of lager so quickly they throw up whilst they go on the hunt for fights or casual back-alley sex.
And those Doner kebabs sure look allot more appetizing than the ones found in takeaways in Britain.
There is a big difference though between west berlin and the ex-communist east berlin , for one thing expect to pay around twice as much for a beer in west as in east.
The public transport system as well as any municipal services we used whilst there were a model of legendary German efficiency, not to mention cheap as transport is subsidized by the state.
The nightlife is excellent but I certainly advise chatting to the local partygoers (most are friendly enough) as they will know the more cool out of the way places to go.
Beer is also very cheap in east berlin , especially from supermarkets and drinking it on the streets or public transport is not the taboo that it is in the UK and other places.
The general vibe of the nightlife I experienced was quite different to Britain with much more sensibly paced drinking going on throughout the night and a generally social , jovial atmosphere unlike UK Cities which seem to cater increasingly to insular gangs of drunks who go out ingest large amounts of lager so quickly they throw up whilst they go on the hunt for fights or casual back-alley sex.
And those Doner kebabs sure look allot more appetizing than the ones found in takeaways in Britain.
I would add that "cheap" usually extends to some parts of the former West, namely Kreuzberg (quite a few startup/tech meetups there), Neukölln, and Wedding (not my personal favourite but definitely cheap), all of those used to be "in the shadow of the wall".
When we had a larger apartment and were trying to find people to rent one of the rooms for a few months, wg-gesucht.de was very useful, though that was a few years ago.
When we had a larger apartment and were trying to find people to rent one of the rooms for a few months, wg-gesucht.de was very useful, though that was a few years ago.
Agreed on all points. I'd also recommend checking out the the Mitwohnzentrale, which was IIRC located near KuDamm. Mitwohnzentrale ("Live-Share Center") derives in spirit from the Mitfahrzentrale ("Ride-Share Center"), and it is basically a semi-formalized arrangement for subletting apartments. When I dropped by during a visit to Berlin years ago, I saw a listing for a nice apartment near KuDamm that rivaled my apartment in [mid-sized Midwest US city] in terms of rent. AirBNB inherits much from the Mitwohnzentrale. http://www.mitwohnzentrale.de/
Germany is the land of tech startups. But not Web technologies. Germany is predominantly engineering based. And the industry is more in the south.
Germany is ideal if you want to work on the latest car assistant systems, on technologies for building the next generation skyscrapers in Dubai and China, or on green technologies. Programming is often a byproduct of those development, but those are interesting fields non the less.
Germany is ideal if you want to work on the latest car assistant systems, on technologies for building the next generation skyscrapers in Dubai and China, or on green technologies. Programming is often a byproduct of those development, but those are interesting fields non the less.
So what cities in Europe are good for software developers? Where are the hubs?
In Stockholm, programmer is the most common profession of all. More common than teachers, nurses etc.
Also, Copenhagen/Malmö is nice.
In Germany: Karlsruhe and München have the best Comp Sci universities. Aachen and Saarbrücken are also top.
Since i live in Karlsruhe and like it, i can tell more about that. The SAP Campus is nearby and there are lots of small SAP consulting/supporting companies around. Karlsruhe is sometimes called the internet-capital of Germany. The biggest german hosting and email provider is here (United Internet with web.de, GMX, 1&1, and more). Startup culture exists, but not that great.
Propaganda: Karlsruhe invented the bicycle (Drais 1817), the car (Benz 1914), radio (Hertz 1887) and recieved the first email in Germany (1984).
Since i live in Karlsruhe and like it, i can tell more about that. The SAP Campus is nearby and there are lots of small SAP consulting/supporting companies around. Karlsruhe is sometimes called the internet-capital of Germany. The biggest german hosting and email provider is here (United Internet with web.de, GMX, 1&1, and more). Startup culture exists, but not that great.
Propaganda: Karlsruhe invented the bicycle (Drais 1817), the car (Benz 1914), radio (Hertz 1887) and recieved the first email in Germany (1984).
In Germany, I think many dev jobs are around Munich. Stuttgart and the surrounds have a lot of industry-related development, while Frankfurt is the finance hub.
In France, Grenoble and Paris are the big hubs as far as I know.
But the question is where do you want to live in an environment. I'd advise you to pick the country first and then the city.
In France, Grenoble and Paris are the big hubs as far as I know.
But the question is where do you want to live in an environment. I'd advise you to pick the country first and then the city.
Amsterdam probably. Check this out: http://venturebeat.com/2011/06/27/appsterdam-a-haven-for-ind...
I'm German myself and I'm always cringing a bit when it comes to German statups. At least in the past most of the 'bigger' ones were copies of already existing ideas and there is always the ones that seem to be afraid of new technology ("we use j2ee, oracle and hibernate").
Could somebody name a few successful Berlin (or German) startups besides soundcloud?
http://www.wooga.com/ (social games, 8th largest on Facebook according to Wikipedia)
http://www.6wunderkinder.com/ is one example.
So far, 6wunderkinder delivered a todo-list app for several platforms. Wunderkit is yet to be delivered, and I just don't see how a free app that is used by some people can be stated as "successful", especially given the fact that the most visible competitors, Things and Omnifocus are premium-priced. Spread: Certainly. Success: Menotreallysure.
At least Things is also from Germany http://culturedcode.com/about/impressum.html
Yes, but cultured code is not presenting themselves as if it were the hottest new startup ( they are btw not in berlin but in stuttgart ), they have just created an awesome app.
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I love Berlin, but I recommend Hamburg over Berlin. Here in Hamburg, we don't have super-cheap housing, but there is one big advantage: Lots of capital. I'm currently working hard on getting more entrepreneurial and startup events going in Hamburg, because every time you talk to people from abroad and mention you're a startup in Germay, they all go "Oh, Berlin?" No, actually, we have several nice cities. Hamburg probably has the highest quality of life (compared to Berlin, Munich and Frankfurt). Berlin is fun if you like the scruffy look and hopping from one thing to the next, Hamburg is better if you want to live and build something sustainable.
And it's only 1:40h from Berlin by train... :)
And it's only 1:40h from Berlin by train... :)
> they all go "Oh, Berlin?" No, actually, we have several nice cities. Hamburg probably has the highest quality of life
your comment reminded about scene from movie I.Q (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0110099/) where very "proper" man, James Moreland is doing the experiment with the mouse. There are two switches the mouse can press: one that gives him food and one that gives him orgazm. The mouse hasn't eaten in three days. Moreland is genuily perplexed how this could possibly be the case ...
your comment reminded about scene from movie I.Q (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0110099/) where very "proper" man, James Moreland is doing the experiment with the mouse. There are two switches the mouse can press: one that gives him food and one that gives him orgazm. The mouse hasn't eaten in three days. Moreland is genuily perplexed how this could possibly be the case ...
Compared to Munich? I assume you've yet to have a good wheat beer in Bavaria ;)
Allow me to commit the obvious faux paus: there's more to beer than weizen or weiss. The only reason i'd regret living in Germany is how hard it is to find a good IPA :(
Ha, there is also more to beer than how much hops you put in it.
Would you say speaking German is a requirement for a Hamburg based startup?
Ja - viele Deutsche sprechen kein English.
Und yes, meine German sind wirklich broken.
Und yes, meine German sind wirklich broken.
I lived and worked in Frankfurt for awhile (I'm American). My experience was different. Though I was fluent in German and worked for a company where German was the language of day to day work, I found very few Germans that didnt speak English (Those that had grown up in the former East Germany were the exception - this was 15 years ago when the fall of the Wall was more recent). I met Americans that had lived there for four or five years working at some of the international companies there that had never learned German. It did not seem to be an impediment.
I think it was meant sarcastically.
You can survive with no German knowledge if your coworkers target group predominantly speaks English. This is not a given, though.
I would say definitely. Maybe not for the inter-industry contacts but for the bureaucracy loved by Germans.
Down for me, Google cache:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:96bt8LH...
I have now lived in Berlin for a couple of months - I like it, even when it is winter :)
I'm self-employed one-man-business, and at first I thought about applying for "real work" so that I would better integrate to the new city. Since then I have changed my mind. There are lots of different technology events, and it is very easy to meet new people. There are numerous co-working spaces, if you don't want to work from home. Freelancing, startups and self-employment are seen as normal career choice (not like in Finland, where I come from).
I have tried to pick up a little german, and I can understand it now a little bit - but it seems that almost everybody speaks fluent english, so it doesn't seem to be necessary.
I'm self-employed one-man-business, and at first I thought about applying for "real work" so that I would better integrate to the new city. Since then I have changed my mind. There are lots of different technology events, and it is very easy to meet new people. There are numerous co-working spaces, if you don't want to work from home. Freelancing, startups and self-employment are seen as normal career choice (not like in Finland, where I come from).
I have tried to pick up a little german, and I can understand it now a little bit - but it seems that almost everybody speaks fluent english, so it doesn't seem to be necessary.
I've found Berlin to be a bit of a cluterfuck. I stay in Kruezburg near the Kotti so this probably skews my perceptions. Everyday there is a battle between pedestrians, bicyclists, and cars. Each group fighting each other.
I agree that almost every traditional German speaks English but a lot of the Turkish decent Germans don't.
I agree that almost every traditional German speaks English but a lot of the Turkish decent Germans don't.
> Everyday there is a battle between pedestrians, bicyclists, and cars.
You better never come to Beijing!
By the way, in Beijing, geeks and rich people are plenty, and entrepreneurship is strong, even if still fragile.
You better never come to Beijing!
By the way, in Beijing, geeks and rich people are plenty, and entrepreneurship is strong, even if still fragile.
I'll preface this with the fact that I love Berlin. I'm a US citizen that has German permanent residence and has been in Germany for 10 years and Berlin for 5. But this post is full of fawning:
1) Incredibly cheap cost of living for a European capital
This is true. Berlin is freakishly cheap.
2) Berlin has an amazing startup culture
No, it doesn't. It's trending positive, but at present Berlin has a mediocre startup culture. It's not even in the same league as the valley and also behind NYC, Boston, London and Tel Aviv (and possibly a few more).
Pop quiz: Can you name 5 large Berlin exits? 5 Berlin angel investors that do more than a couple deals a year? 5 VC firms with offices in Berlin? I can't do any of those off the top of my head. I can actually answer those for several of the mentioned cities that I don't even live in. (Note: I'm not saying that there aren't answers for those that I could find with research, but it should give some sense for the relative magnitudes.)
3) Incredible music scene and nightlife
Also true. Though the clubs listed there are kind of the touriste deluxe. What makes Berlin is the grimy underground places. Also, it's great for some genres, terrible for some (i.e. jazz in Berlin is pretty lame).
What's more important and not mentioned is that Berlin is probably the best city to be in for the arts in general right now in the West. The nightlife is just one outgrowth of that.
4) Beautiful nature, lakes, canals, and parks
Sorry, but Berlin is a pretty ugly city. If you want pretty, go to Prague. London and Paris are also a lot prettier than Berlin. In fact, I could list another dozen cities that are. Also, I know of several cities that claim the "most canals" thing (Hamburg among them). At any rate, does anyone really care how many canals there are? While you can find some pretty spots in Berlin, if this is high on your list of reasons to move to a city, Berlin doesn't score well.
5) The awesome history, abandoned buildings, and street art (and relaxed police)
The anecdote about the police there is ... well, I can say that the author hasn't been at many parties shut down by the police. The usual modus operandi is 2-3 police tell the organizers that they've got half an hour to shut things down or else they're coming back with a bunch of police. They're generally pretty chilled out, except when they're not. In rare cases, usually inexplicably, the riot police get called in and let's just say they're not known for their friendliness.
The abandoned buildings are in large part due to the fact that both people and industry left the city when it was divided. Berlin's peak population was about half a million more than it has now.
6) Berlin’s central location makes it easy to travel around Europe
No, it doesn't. Prague or Warsaw, maybe. But it's quite a ways from the usual tourist fare in western Europe.
7) The amazing, delicious döner kebabs
Bleh. They seem neat because they're new. Let's talk again when you've downed your first 100 of them. They're just junky fast-food. I usually can't finish one anymore without getting nauseous.
Other misnomers from comments:
• Everyone speaks English in Berlin
No, they don't. In fact, I'd be surprised if half do. People over 35 from the east, people without a college education, blue collar workers, etc. usually don't. And quite a few educated folks don't either.
• The cheap parts of Berlin are the old communist parts
Also false. Neukölln is the currently trendy spot, and Kreuzberg was before it. Both are in the former west Berlin. Before that Friedrichshain and Prenzlauerberg were the in spots and they were both in the east.
1) Incredibly cheap cost of living for a European capital
This is true. Berlin is freakishly cheap.
2) Berlin has an amazing startup culture
No, it doesn't. It's trending positive, but at present Berlin has a mediocre startup culture. It's not even in the same league as the valley and also behind NYC, Boston, London and Tel Aviv (and possibly a few more).
Pop quiz: Can you name 5 large Berlin exits? 5 Berlin angel investors that do more than a couple deals a year? 5 VC firms with offices in Berlin? I can't do any of those off the top of my head. I can actually answer those for several of the mentioned cities that I don't even live in. (Note: I'm not saying that there aren't answers for those that I could find with research, but it should give some sense for the relative magnitudes.)
3) Incredible music scene and nightlife
Also true. Though the clubs listed there are kind of the touriste deluxe. What makes Berlin is the grimy underground places. Also, it's great for some genres, terrible for some (i.e. jazz in Berlin is pretty lame).
What's more important and not mentioned is that Berlin is probably the best city to be in for the arts in general right now in the West. The nightlife is just one outgrowth of that.
4) Beautiful nature, lakes, canals, and parks
Sorry, but Berlin is a pretty ugly city. If you want pretty, go to Prague. London and Paris are also a lot prettier than Berlin. In fact, I could list another dozen cities that are. Also, I know of several cities that claim the "most canals" thing (Hamburg among them). At any rate, does anyone really care how many canals there are? While you can find some pretty spots in Berlin, if this is high on your list of reasons to move to a city, Berlin doesn't score well.
5) The awesome history, abandoned buildings, and street art (and relaxed police)
The anecdote about the police there is ... well, I can say that the author hasn't been at many parties shut down by the police. The usual modus operandi is 2-3 police tell the organizers that they've got half an hour to shut things down or else they're coming back with a bunch of police. They're generally pretty chilled out, except when they're not. In rare cases, usually inexplicably, the riot police get called in and let's just say they're not known for their friendliness.
The abandoned buildings are in large part due to the fact that both people and industry left the city when it was divided. Berlin's peak population was about half a million more than it has now.
6) Berlin’s central location makes it easy to travel around Europe
No, it doesn't. Prague or Warsaw, maybe. But it's quite a ways from the usual tourist fare in western Europe.
7) The amazing, delicious döner kebabs
Bleh. They seem neat because they're new. Let's talk again when you've downed your first 100 of them. They're just junky fast-food. I usually can't finish one anymore without getting nauseous.
Other misnomers from comments:
• Everyone speaks English in Berlin
No, they don't. In fact, I'd be surprised if half do. People over 35 from the east, people without a college education, blue collar workers, etc. usually don't. And quite a few educated folks don't either.
• The cheap parts of Berlin are the old communist parts
Also false. Neukölln is the currently trendy spot, and Kreuzberg was before it. Both are in the former west Berlin. Before that Friedrichshain and Prenzlauerberg were the in spots and they were both in the east.
Another long-term expat here (also 10 years, all in Berlin). You nailed every "huh?" moment I had with article.
> No, it doesn't. Prague or Warsaw, maybe. But it's quite a ways from the usual tourist fare in western Europe.
FYI, Lufthansa intends for BBI (upon completion) to function as a major hub, somewhat on par with FRA.
FYI, Lufthansa intends for BBI (upon completion) to function as a major hub, somewhat on par with FRA.
There are junky fast-food döners and there are good döners.
[deleted]
Every single person who moves to berlin ends up mixing minimal techno. It's uncanny.
that is a fact, http://soundcloud.com/maneesh/minimally-nomadic
Not me. I started with Detroit acid and I've never stopped, despite being here for 3.5 years.
I'm tempted to spend a bit of time there next year. I occasionally do some work for some guys not too far away from Berlin so I have something I can justify it with (northern working class roots means I still think of travel as bourgeois frippery). I'd be interested to see any lists of meetups/that kind of thing that happen regularly.
My dad spent some time there in his army days and I remember him telling me that beer was cheaper than a cup of tea from the roadside stops. Glad to hear that's still the case!
My dad spent some time there in his army days and I remember him telling me that beer was cheaper than a cup of tea from the roadside stops. Glad to hear that's still the case!
I cofounded the 4 Hour Workweek meetup, which is still very active in Berlin. Check it out here: http://www.facebook.com/groups/146524318752855/
We actually had Tim Ferriss come and speak to us, it was great.
You can also check out meetup.org, I see a lot of cool Startup Freelancer meetups there.
Lastly, check out Couchsurfing.org, there are AWESOME weekly meetups 3x / week.
We actually had Tim Ferriss come and speak to us, it was great.
You can also check out meetup.org, I see a lot of cool Startup Freelancer meetups there.
Lastly, check out Couchsurfing.org, there are AWESOME weekly meetups 3x / week.
Excellent, thanks. At the risk of sounding like I didn't even attempt to check the obvious, I've tried sites like that before and found almost everything was defunct. If that's not the case here then I'll certainly take a look!
signing up for group
How difficult is it for one to get the proper visas to Germany (EU?). What are the requirements of obtaining a visa? Can I start a business or work for some one on a tourist visa?
Seriously, this should be point #1. Otherwise (as I suspect) this article can be summed up as: "This is a great place to work! Too bad you can't move here, suckas."
The European Union has its shortcomings, but this is the one reason I don't want to see it fail, or Britain to leave.
If I wanted to, tomorrow, I could take my British passport to Berlin, Copenhagen, Warsaw, anywhere on a continent of 500 million people and live and work without the artificial hassles of borders and visas. It opens up so many more opportunities than being stuck in one country, and eventually it's going to be one of the things that gets us out of this boring recession.
If I wanted to, tomorrow, I could take my British passport to Berlin, Copenhagen, Warsaw, anywhere on a continent of 500 million people and live and work without the artificial hassles of borders and visas. It opens up so many more opportunities than being stuck in one country, and eventually it's going to be one of the things that gets us out of this boring recession.
This is the single greatest aspect of the EU. I love the fact that I can travel and work in so many countries without any visa troubles. Just get a ticket and go.
What you are describing is the Schengen Agreement, which predates the EU by quite a few years (1985 vs 1993).
Sadly, out of the few positive things that people associate EU with, even fewer are really to EU's credit.
Sadly, out of the few positive things that people associate EU with, even fewer are really to EU's credit.
Wow, talk about history illiteracy. The EU was founded 1958. The Schengen Agreement is one of the CORE achievements of it (as is the Euro).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_European_Union
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_European_Union
Not so fast there:
"On 1 November 1993, under the third Delors Commission, the Maastricht Treaty became effective, creating the European Union with its pillar system including foreign and home affairs alongside the European Community.[16][17] The 1994 European elections were held resulting in the Socialist group maintaining their position as the largest party in Parliament. The Council proposed Jacques Santer as Commission President but was seen as a second choice candidate, undermining his position. Parliament narrowly approved Santer but his commission gained greater support being approved by 416 votes to 103, Santer had use his new powers under Maastricht to flex greater control over his choice of Commissioners. They took office on 23 January 1995.[18]"
"The Schengen Agreements and the rules adopted under them were, for the EU members of the Agreement, entirely separate from the EU structures until the 1997 Amsterdam Treaty, which incorporated them into the mainstream of European Union law. The borderless zone created by the Schengen Agreements, the Schengen Area, currently consists of 25 European countries, covering a population of over 400 million people and an area of 4,312,099 square kilometers (1,664,911 sq mi).[1]"
"On 1 November 1993, under the third Delors Commission, the Maastricht Treaty became effective, creating the European Union with its pillar system including foreign and home affairs alongside the European Community.[16][17] The 1994 European elections were held resulting in the Socialist group maintaining their position as the largest party in Parliament. The Council proposed Jacques Santer as Commission President but was seen as a second choice candidate, undermining his position. Parliament narrowly approved Santer but his commission gained greater support being approved by 416 votes to 103, Santer had use his new powers under Maastricht to flex greater control over his choice of Commissioners. They took office on 23 January 1995.[18]"
"The Schengen Agreements and the rules adopted under them were, for the EU members of the Agreement, entirely separate from the EU structures until the 1997 Amsterdam Treaty, which incorporated them into the mainstream of European Union law. The borderless zone created by the Schengen Agreements, the Schengen Area, currently consists of 25 European countries, covering a population of over 400 million people and an area of 4,312,099 square kilometers (1,664,911 sq mi).[1]"
Bzzzt! Wrong treaty! Bzzzt! No idea about European integration!
Schengen is about abolishing borders, it is not at all about freedom of movement (i.e. the right to live and work everywhere).
Making freedom of movement possible is one of the central tasks of the European Union. Its most important goal is to create a common market. Freedom of movement of work is obviously an absolutely necessary pre-condition for a common market.
The European Union is wholly responsible for bringing that freedom of movement to EU member states. That's what the 1993 treaty was (mostly) all about!
There is no freedom of movement between all Schengen countries. I'm German and I definitly can't just go live and work in Switzerland (which is not an EU member) – despite Switzerland being a Schengen member.
And yes, it's true: The EU was founded in 1993. But that's not really the right way of looking at it. Before the EU there was the EEC (European Economic Community), founded in 1958. With the 1993 treaty the structure of the EEC was slightly changed, it was given more power and it was renamed to EU. Yes, there were changes but not really radical ones. For all intents and purposes EU and EEC are one and the same.
Schengen is about abolishing borders, it is not at all about freedom of movement (i.e. the right to live and work everywhere).
Making freedom of movement possible is one of the central tasks of the European Union. Its most important goal is to create a common market. Freedom of movement of work is obviously an absolutely necessary pre-condition for a common market.
The European Union is wholly responsible for bringing that freedom of movement to EU member states. That's what the 1993 treaty was (mostly) all about!
There is no freedom of movement between all Schengen countries. I'm German and I definitly can't just go live and work in Switzerland (which is not an EU member) – despite Switzerland being a Schengen member.
And yes, it's true: The EU was founded in 1993. But that's not really the right way of looking at it. Before the EU there was the EEC (European Economic Community), founded in 1958. With the 1993 treaty the structure of the EEC was slightly changed, it was given more power and it was renamed to EU. Yes, there were changes but not really radical ones. For all intents and purposes EU and EEC are one and the same.
[deleted]
Schengen is about abolishing border controls, not freedom of movement. Those are two different things. Only EU citizens enjoy freedom of movement. Making freedom of movement possible is indeed on of the main tasks of the EU.
And yes, the European Economic Community was renamed European Union in 1993, for all intents and purposes those two entities are, however, one and the same. The EEC was founded in 1958.
And yes, the European Economic Community was renamed European Union in 1993, for all intents and purposes those two entities are, however, one and the same. The EEC was founded in 1958.
Certainly not. You are correct in that there is a logical and chronological continuation, but the EEC was an economic entity, as it's name suggests, and was meant to promote economic cooperation and integration.
EU nowadays, on the other hand, is a political entity and picks and promotes its goals accordingly.
EU nowadays, on the other hand, is a political entity and picks and promotes its goals accordingly.
I like how you completely ignored the main point I was making (namely that freedom of movement is an exclusive achievement of the European Union, only available to people living in EU member states, and that Schengen has nothing whatsoever to do with it) and quibbled with my framing of the EU and EEC.
You were incorrect in bringing up Schengen. That is my main point. Try and respond to it. Now to the sidelines.
Yes, the EEC was changed when it was renamed in 1993. Not radically, though. It still is mostly about economics and its main goal is to create a common market. That includes freedom of movement. The famous two pillars that were added in 1993 – namely security and justice – haven’t seen all that much love from EU member states and are for the purpose of this discussion irrelevant.
The EEC was political, the EU is political. Making a distinction there doesn’t make any sense. The European Parliament is much older than the EU. The European Commission is much older than the EU. Those are all political institutions.
Yes, how those elements work together was changed in 1993 but that’s it.
You were incorrect in bringing up Schengen. That is my main point. Try and respond to it. Now to the sidelines.
Yes, the EEC was changed when it was renamed in 1993. Not radically, though. It still is mostly about economics and its main goal is to create a common market. That includes freedom of movement. The famous two pillars that were added in 1993 – namely security and justice – haven’t seen all that much love from EU member states and are for the purpose of this discussion irrelevant.
The EEC was political, the EU is political. Making a distinction there doesn’t make any sense. The European Parliament is much older than the EU. The European Commission is much older than the EU. Those are all political institutions.
Yes, how those elements work together was changed in 1993 but that’s it.
I was referring only to the "buy ticket and go" part, that is free travelling, which was made possible by Schengen. To work you indeed used to need a visa (some EU countries still need that even today btw), you are right there.
The rest of your post is just sad. I think you're trolling, but in case you really don't see the difference between the original integration process (voluntary cooperation of nation states, read up on De Gaulle&co) and the current state of the EU (anything but), that's delusional. I suggest you open an arbitrary newspaper today and see what's happening in Europe.
The rest of your post is just sad. I think you're trolling, but in case you really don't see the difference between the original integration process (voluntary cooperation of nation states, read up on De Gaulle&co) and the current state of the EU (anything but), that's delusional. I suggest you open an arbitrary newspaper today and see what's happening in Europe.
Norway's not a member of the EU but it's still part of Schengen. I bet the right to live in Paris/Berlin/Amsterdam/etc. will remain yours irrespective of what happens to UK EU membership.
Schengen is about border controls, not freedom of movement.
I see. The brits could probably get agreement X that allows norwegians to live in Berlin although they aren't EU citizens.
Could. But it’s not all that simple. The motive behind allowing freedom of movement is to create a common market. Work has to be able to move freely for something to be a common market. The same has to be true for capital and goods. All that isn’t as simple as abolishing customs. Regulations can, for example, create powerful barriers in the market (for example when France and Spain have different and mutually exclusive regulations for mechanical wine harvesters) and a big part of what the EU does (and for what it is often ridiculed) is to harmonize regulation.
It’s possible that freedom of movement could be disadvantageous for one country if a common market isn’t also created and that’s were the complications start, were it’s necessary to have some sort of common political structure (and not just a treaty signed by the respective heads of government) in place.
It’s possible that freedom of movement could be disadvantageous for one country if a common market isn’t also created and that’s were the complications start, were it’s necessary to have some sort of common political structure (and not just a treaty signed by the respective heads of government) in place.
Germany is one of the easiest places to get a resident visa in. Compare it to Italy or Spain or France, and you'll see the difference.
Getting a visa isn't impossible, but you need a good reason. I got a working visa through my university, but many people can get 'artist's visas, which allow them to stay if they are practicing any sort of art (photography, djing, music, whatever). These artist visas are not so difficult to get.
A residence permit is also quite easy. But a working visa can be difficult----you need to be sponsored first.
A residence permit is also quite easy. But a working visa can be difficult----you need to be sponsored first.
Careful with that recommendation. I've got a friend from the eastern part of Europe (if you still consider it part of Europe in the first place). He came to DE on one of those things and is currently fighting an expensive lawsuit to be able to stay.
He is a great artist (musician) and earns more money than I did in DE as a developer, but for some reason he's still supposed to 'go home' now.
Yes, this is a single data point and you should not believe random strangers on the internet.
He is a great artist (musician) and earns more money than I did in DE as a developer, but for some reason he's still supposed to 'go home' now.
Yes, this is a single data point and you should not believe random strangers on the internet.
Why would you not consider it apart of Europe?
I haven't been a university student for some time, but everything you listed in your blog entry seems intriguing. Any idea how difficult it is for programmers with a few years experience + degree to get a visa there? Also, what is the duration on them?
I liked the article, btw!
I liked the article, btw!
programmers need a job to get a visa, and it's not the easiest thing in the world...but it's easier than most places! Check out monster.com even, or try to find startups via HN.
I'm from Canada. In 2002 I went to flensburg on a tourist visa. I met a guy who ran a company and wanted a LAMP developer. I applied for a residence permit which came pretty quickly and then with the job offer in hand I got a work permit for a year. I got the permits renewed once before moving to the UK.
I've been on two several week long trips to Germany and Austria this year and I've absolutely loved it. Unfortunately, my boss isn't willing to transfer me over to Europe. If anyone is hiring, I'm looking pretty much anywhere in Germany, Austria, or Czech. Email in profile. I'm an engineer, but not software (mechanical). Experience working as Linux sysadmin and enjoy Python. Willing to work (relatively) cheap for the right experience.
I'm about to complete my second week in Berlin. I'm doing some Ruby programming with some friends. It's been an exciting experience so far, I'll be around for a couple of months.
Anyone up for some meetups or beers? I'd like to get to know the hacker or gamedev scene here, it would be great.
I haven't had any problems with my half baked English yet. The guys at the döner that don't speak English, can understand half baked sign language pretty well.
Anyone up for some meetups or beers? I'd like to get to know the hacker or gamedev scene here, it would be great.
I haven't had any problems with my half baked English yet. The guys at the döner that don't speak English, can understand half baked sign language pretty well.
I've found St Oberholz bar in Rosenthaler Strasse to be pretty famous for meetups http://g.co/maps/xex87
As no one has written extensively about visas and the OP has glorified Berlin without saying how to legally become a resident and earn money, I'll try to do it (and tell you a nice little story in the process).
Short intro: I have lived in Germany for more than 15 years. I have learned the language and subsequently studied CompSci there, I love so many things about Germany, I have family and friends there, I still follow what's happening there through the media, I have worked there as a developer and consultant.
(All info is for non-EU citizens)
Working with tourist visa is impossible. Legally.
Obtaining the student visa (the same OP had/has) is fairly easy. And you can work with it. But only for an employer (so, no freelancing, no incorporating). And for 19 hrs/week maximum. If you work more, German IRS ("Finanzamt") will contact your employer and you both can get in trouble.
Obtaining other kinds of visas is much harder. You need both the staying visa ("Aufenthaltserlaubnis") from the Immigration Service ("Ausländerbehörde") and the work permit ("Arbeitserlaubnis") from the Employment Center ("Bundesagentur für Arbeit"). If there are no German and EU citizens available for the job, and you have the qualification that is in shortage, and your employer has proven all that to the Immigration Service (process that can take months - it's time and money consuming) and is willing to pay you at least €60.000 a year (which is quite a lot!) then, and only then you can get the work permit. Needless to say, finding an employer who's willing to go through that procedure isn't easy. Caveat: You are quite dependent on that employer afterwards.
More info (in German, try Google translate):http://migration-business.de/2011/09/hochqualifizierte-raus-...
Obtaining visa for incorporating a company is the hardest thing! There are two ways:
1. If you have had staying visa and work permit for more that five years you can apply for permanent residence ("Unbefristete Aufenthaltserlaubnis"). The procedure lasts three to six months and if you are (as German politicians like to say) "integrated" (you speak fluent German, know the country, have German friends, no criminal record, not a terrorist etc.) there is no major thing that'd hinder you to become permanent resident. With permanent residence you can incorporate whatever you want (sole proprietorship, a company).
2. This is a lesser known way: If your staying visa and work permit is "younger" than five years you can write a business plan. Immigration Service will pass it to the local Chamber of Commerce ("Handelskammer") and after the positive review they'll give a green light and Immigration Service will add to your visa that you are allowed to incorporate. That's how it should work. On paper. The real life is different.
As this is a lesser known way, I know only one guy who has tried it. Great credentials: Studied in Germany, flawless German, "integrated" (gosh, I hate that word), very competent. Worked for a year, and didn't want to wait for another four to be allowed to incorporate. Had a great idea. Wrote a great business plan. And went through limbo with it. In order to get to the positive outcome he, preemptively, has contacted and worked with the Chamber of Commerce guy who has worked on his case. That guy would return the business plan every week with new "potential problems" in it. My friend would improve it, send the new version, CoC guy would again find fault with his plan, and the game would start again. And go on for almost eight months.
To cut to the chase, my friend went to a high civil servant ("Oberstadtinspektor") with the local Immigration Service and what the civil servant has told him was revealing. His exact words were: "If I let you stay here, what should I do if, due to you business activity, a German business loses a contract and complains against us." My friend answered that he cannot rule out that such thing won't happen. But in that case, his company will still employ Germans and pay taxes in Germany - German state would still benefit from his venture. Otherwise, if he'd incorporate somewhere else, that scenario could still happen, but he wouldn't employ Germans and pay taxes in Germany. Civil servant answered "I've told you everything I can."
My friend, disappointed, returned to his home country realizing that such way of thinking was also the reason CoC guy behaved the way he behaved (in my friend's words "No German is willing to take responsibility for allowing ANY foreigner to stay in Germany"). He calls himself an "Economic Hitman" (yes, he's John Perkins fan :))): He now owns a tech company that employs 80 people, and uses his knowledge of the German culture, language, businesses to work exclusively with Germany. And to INTENTIONALLY make that scenario happen. And it has happened a few times (that he's aware of): German businesses were not taken, his was. His competitive advantage is, for one reason, the fact that his company is NOT in Germany. In his country labor is cheaper and he pays a lot less taxes than in Germany - giving him leverage over German companies.
The irony: Those (civil servants) who's mission is to to the best for the citizens and the state have failed miserably. And, on the top of that, have proven to have NO CLUE about economy as they do not realize that economy is NOT a zero-sum game.
Short intro: I have lived in Germany for more than 15 years. I have learned the language and subsequently studied CompSci there, I love so many things about Germany, I have family and friends there, I still follow what's happening there through the media, I have worked there as a developer and consultant.
(All info is for non-EU citizens)
Working with tourist visa is impossible. Legally.
Obtaining the student visa (the same OP had/has) is fairly easy. And you can work with it. But only for an employer (so, no freelancing, no incorporating). And for 19 hrs/week maximum. If you work more, German IRS ("Finanzamt") will contact your employer and you both can get in trouble.
Obtaining other kinds of visas is much harder. You need both the staying visa ("Aufenthaltserlaubnis") from the Immigration Service ("Ausländerbehörde") and the work permit ("Arbeitserlaubnis") from the Employment Center ("Bundesagentur für Arbeit"). If there are no German and EU citizens available for the job, and you have the qualification that is in shortage, and your employer has proven all that to the Immigration Service (process that can take months - it's time and money consuming) and is willing to pay you at least €60.000 a year (which is quite a lot!) then, and only then you can get the work permit. Needless to say, finding an employer who's willing to go through that procedure isn't easy. Caveat: You are quite dependent on that employer afterwards.
More info (in German, try Google translate):http://migration-business.de/2011/09/hochqualifizierte-raus-...
Obtaining visa for incorporating a company is the hardest thing! There are two ways:
1. If you have had staying visa and work permit for more that five years you can apply for permanent residence ("Unbefristete Aufenthaltserlaubnis"). The procedure lasts three to six months and if you are (as German politicians like to say) "integrated" (you speak fluent German, know the country, have German friends, no criminal record, not a terrorist etc.) there is no major thing that'd hinder you to become permanent resident. With permanent residence you can incorporate whatever you want (sole proprietorship, a company).
2. This is a lesser known way: If your staying visa and work permit is "younger" than five years you can write a business plan. Immigration Service will pass it to the local Chamber of Commerce ("Handelskammer") and after the positive review they'll give a green light and Immigration Service will add to your visa that you are allowed to incorporate. That's how it should work. On paper. The real life is different.
As this is a lesser known way, I know only one guy who has tried it. Great credentials: Studied in Germany, flawless German, "integrated" (gosh, I hate that word), very competent. Worked for a year, and didn't want to wait for another four to be allowed to incorporate. Had a great idea. Wrote a great business plan. And went through limbo with it. In order to get to the positive outcome he, preemptively, has contacted and worked with the Chamber of Commerce guy who has worked on his case. That guy would return the business plan every week with new "potential problems" in it. My friend would improve it, send the new version, CoC guy would again find fault with his plan, and the game would start again. And go on for almost eight months.
To cut to the chase, my friend went to a high civil servant ("Oberstadtinspektor") with the local Immigration Service and what the civil servant has told him was revealing. His exact words were: "If I let you stay here, what should I do if, due to you business activity, a German business loses a contract and complains against us." My friend answered that he cannot rule out that such thing won't happen. But in that case, his company will still employ Germans and pay taxes in Germany - German state would still benefit from his venture. Otherwise, if he'd incorporate somewhere else, that scenario could still happen, but he wouldn't employ Germans and pay taxes in Germany. Civil servant answered "I've told you everything I can."
My friend, disappointed, returned to his home country realizing that such way of thinking was also the reason CoC guy behaved the way he behaved (in my friend's words "No German is willing to take responsibility for allowing ANY foreigner to stay in Germany"). He calls himself an "Economic Hitman" (yes, he's John Perkins fan :))): He now owns a tech company that employs 80 people, and uses his knowledge of the German culture, language, businesses to work exclusively with Germany. And to INTENTIONALLY make that scenario happen. And it has happened a few times (that he's aware of): German businesses were not taken, his was. His competitive advantage is, for one reason, the fact that his company is NOT in Germany. In his country labor is cheaper and he pays a lot less taxes than in Germany - giving him leverage over German companies.
The irony: Those (civil servants) who's mission is to to the best for the citizens and the state have failed miserably. And, on the top of that, have proven to have NO CLUE about economy as they do not realize that economy is NOT a zero-sum game.
For awhile now I've been pondering the possibility of relocating my family to europe for awhile. How hard is it for someone who can start his own business to come there to found a company? How difficult is it to get a work permit to move to an EU state, if you can find an employer who will hire you?
You can get a work visa (similar to US green card) if you can find a job that pays more then 46000 Euro/Year. That is the typical IT starting salary for companies like SAP or Microsoft Germany - if you are good ;)
I'd love to move to Berlin just for the hacker scene that is there, centered around Chaos Computer Club. The open source / hacking / copyleft scene seems bigger there than other places in Europe, at least from what I felt when I was there for Chaos Communication Conference.
Also the döner.
Also the döner.
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Wow, I had no idea about the cheap housing.
Keep in mind he was living with a host family. If you want to rent an apt, it will cost more. Here's some crowd-sourced numbers on cost of living in Berlin: http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/city_result.jsp?country...
BTW, Berlin's startup scene is amazing---if you can't stomach the costs of San Fran, Berlin is the place to be.
Are there any language issues, or do some of the companies use English at work? While German is certainly a language I'd like to learn at some point in the future, being able to speak English immediately would be a big help.
Also, a slightly unrelated question--I'm a college student in the Bay Area. Would it be practical for me to intern at a company in Europe (say, in Berlin)? Because I would really love that, especially if the company was a startup.
Also, a slightly unrelated question--I'm a college student in the Bay Area. Would it be practical for me to intern at a company in Europe (say, in Berlin)? Because I would really love that, especially if the company was a startup.
My info is 15 years out of date, but at least at that point there were active programs for cultural exchange that placed american students at internships in Germany. Germany has an apprenticeship model (the "praktikum"), so interns flock there from all over the EU. Lots of spots available, so adding some Americans to the mix is easy.
I wish I had more detailed info at my fingertips but try googling or reaching out to the embassy and places like Goethe Institut.
I think this may be the program I was part of but not sure: http://www.cdsintl.org/internshipsabroad/iwagermany.php
Everyone speaks decent english. Some companies might prefer you to speak German in the office, but startup companies and tech companies mostly use English as well.
Which college? I interned as a student from Stanford, and Stanford actually paid for my internship. Internships tend not to pay so much, however, so don't expect too much money. But yes, you can definitely find work there. Are you a coder?
Which college? I interned as a student from Stanford, and Stanford actually paid for my internship. Internships tend not to pay so much, however, so don't expect too much money. But yes, you can definitely find work there. Are you a coder?
I'm currently doing EECS at Berkeley and am definitely a coder. I doubt Berkeley has any similar program, but nothing like that has ever come up--all of my internship talks and the like have been with the companies in question directly, leaving the university completely out of the loop.
Do you mean the internships in Berlin pay less than ones here, or just that internships do not pay too much in general? I think it would be a perfectly good compromise if I got to spend the summer abroad, especially if the cost of living is so much lower than here.
Coincidentally, this wouldn't be my first internship--I spent the summer at a company in San Mateo and now work part-time for a startup in San Francisco. I'm just getting tired of California.
I visited Berlin a couple of summers ago and loved it; I remember a calm city with very friendly people. I could definitely see myself moving to Germany at some point after graduating.
Do you mean the internships in Berlin pay less than ones here, or just that internships do not pay too much in general? I think it would be a perfectly good compromise if I got to spend the summer abroad, especially if the cost of living is so much lower than here.
Coincidentally, this wouldn't be my first internship--I spent the summer at a company in San Mateo and now work part-time for a startup in San Francisco. I'm just getting tired of California.
I visited Berlin a couple of summers ago and loved it; I remember a calm city with very friendly people. I could definitely see myself moving to Germany at some point after graduating.
Hit up any of the companies advertising on http://berlinstartupjobs.com/ - if you are as proficient as it sounds, you should find a company that takes you on and also pays you a salary during your internship. Feel free to contact me if you need pointing into any direction or want a second opinion.
Thanks for the pointer--I'll be sure to look through the jobs posted there.
Go do it then---I was accepted to intern by 2 or 3 companies in a matter of weeks. Just make sure you have something to show them. You might have to settle for an unpaid internship thought, but good luck on finding a job.
Had no problem with English in Berlin. Anyone 35 and under will speak impecable English and when it comes to ordering doner kebabs, all you have to do is point. (Obviously, one should learn German eventually)
Funny story about döner kebabs---if you go to ANY kebab place, they will ask you if you want your kebab 'mit alles' (with everything). The funny thing is that (correct me if I'm wrong german speakers), the correct grammar for this question would actually be 'mit allem', but because every single kebab shop owner says it incorrectly, even the Germans ask with incorrect grammar.
And I always thought "Allem" was a special turkish spice that they sprinkle on top at the end
yes, it's a bit of a joke
Unbelievable how many of you recently moved to Berlin. I've been here for 2 weeks and love it. Rock on!
Sounds great. Anybody hiring?
Amen was looking for a while
https://getamen.com/about
Seriously... get me a crap job in Berlin and i'll move there in 2 weeks
That's great, who's hiring?
a little link won't harm here: http://berlinstartupjobs.com/ also – I'm moving to Berlin in two weeks :-)
I just leave that here (street campaign from Berlin-Kreuzberg): http://streetfiles.org/photos/detail/998929/
Wanna see real Berlin? Here is a party I threw in a subway station a few months ago. This happened about 2-3x per week.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/153216/90days/29%20-%20The%20Morning...
I'm the sexy man doing the thrusting motion halfway through the vid.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/153216/90days/29%20-%20The%20Morning...
I'm the sexy man doing the thrusting motion halfway through the vid.
Awesome! So Real Berlin is:
- Blasting techno while barking English at the locals
- Making fun of big-boned folks enjoying their dinner
- Dancing drunk in broad daylight in oncoming traffic
tsts, tourists...
Toller post =)
It's bad enough to start off the page by begging me to give it my email address (how about no?). But then I start scrolling down and... bingo, black screen and another begging for my email address. Sure, I could track down that little "close" button, but it's easier to close the tab and make a mental note to never look at the site again.