A Look Back at the USSR Computer Industry(hackaday.com)
hackaday.com
A Look Back at the USSR Computer Industry
https://hackaday.com/2022/07/16/a-look-back-at-the-ussr-computer-industry/
11 comments
One of the reasons why they tried ternary was because the magnetic core memory in use at the time had three "natural" physical states: non-magnetized, magnetized clockwise, magnetized counter-clockwise. Binary computers usually used only the latter two, because neutral state was hard to write reliably.
In practice, it didn't work out for ternary, either; Setun would use pairs of cores to represent trits.
In practice, it didn't work out for ternary, either; Setun would use pairs of cores to represent trits.
Sounds cumbersome, do you see any convenience or added efficiency in it?
Sounds cumbersome because you're not used to it.
One of the benefits of being balanced is that it's self-rounding: Just turn any amount of final digits into 0s and you're done. What if you want to express the exact half, decimal 0.5? Well you'll end up with either 1.TTTTT... or 0.11111... so it could round either way. If we were to use this system, shops could no longer manipulate us with prices ending in .99.
Give it a minute to fully grasp the concept and you'll see how intuitive it is.
One of the benefits of being balanced is that it's self-rounding: Just turn any amount of final digits into 0s and you're done. What if you want to express the exact half, decimal 0.5? Well you'll end up with either 1.TTTTT... or 0.11111... so it could round either way. If we were to use this system, shops could no longer manipulate us with prices ending in .99.
Give it a minute to fully grasp the concept and you'll see how intuitive it is.
yes - it's more efficient: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balanced_ternary#In_computer_d...
> According to [Asianometry], in 1986 the Soviet Union had about 10,000 computers. At the same time, the United States had 1.3 million!
That probably also depends on what you define as a computer? I'm not sure if the number for the US includes PCs and home computers (8 bit, 16 bit?), and also in the USSR and in other east bloc states during the eighties there was a flurry of home computer "clones" being built, however mostly only in small numbers - such as this one from my then-home city: https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/TIM-S (list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ZX_Spectrum_clones). But if you were to include these, the number of 10.000 definitely appears too small...
That probably also depends on what you define as a computer? I'm not sure if the number for the US includes PCs and home computers (8 bit, 16 bit?), and also in the USSR and in other east bloc states during the eighties there was a flurry of home computer "clones" being built, however mostly only in small numbers - such as this one from my then-home city: https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/TIM-S (list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ZX_Spectrum_clones). But if you were to include these, the number of 10.000 definitely appears too small...
I don't think the number is too small. These components were super-expensive, not too available and USSR was in a very, very bad shape in the 80s. Note that the Eastern Bloc countries had it better than USSR at that time - better quality of life, better economy, some even produced computer parts locally and were able to hold onto them instead of being forced to send them to the USSR (Bulgaria and Czechoslovakia, for example).
I'd be surprised if there were more than 10k computers in the entire Eastern Bloc in 1986. Even pocket calculators were an expensive luxury item, and people were hacking them to have at least some kind of computer.
I'd be surprised if there were more than 10k computers in the entire Eastern Bloc in 1986. Even pocket calculators were an expensive luxury item, and people were hacking them to have at least some kind of computer.
I don't know the statistics, I was a kid in the GDR in the 1980s. At least in the late 1980s until the end of the GDR we had plenty of 8 bit computers, both GDR made (Z80 CPU clone based KC 85 line [0], or PC 1715 [1] as IBM clone, also see [2] for a full list. The KC line more serious - not so great for gaming, great for work including text processing - and for those purposes more capable than C64) and western made (Commodore up to 16 bit Amiga and also Atari were easily available from private sellers, offers in the respective electronics magazines' sections with private sales offers, albeit at HUGE prices, for an East German salary).
Since I was at school I don't know how many there were in industry, but there were a lot of even TV broadcasts showing how to use locally made IBM PC clones for work stuff. I had no idea how anything worked in the early 1980s, hadn't seen anything, but by the end I think there were quite a lot of them. GDR even produced its own RAM chips, although there were a few jokes because we were quite behind what the rest of the world could make.
No argument that we were significantly behind, by several generations and a huge amount of equipment overall. After reunification there was a gigantic flood of modern electronic equipment for labs and industry, a hundred times more and better than what we had in terms of both sophistication and capabilities. I mean, we had things like oscillographs, but very few - after reunification you order them very cheaply even for private use - and a few generations behind what the new equipment could do. Similar with computers, we still mostly had 8 bit and very few very expensive 16 bit units.
[0] https://www.robotrontechnik.de/index.htm?/html/computer/kc_m...
[1] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/PC_1715
[2] Computers in the GDR https://www.elektromuseum.de/wissen-computer-ddr.html
Since I was at school I don't know how many there were in industry, but there were a lot of even TV broadcasts showing how to use locally made IBM PC clones for work stuff. I had no idea how anything worked in the early 1980s, hadn't seen anything, but by the end I think there were quite a lot of them. GDR even produced its own RAM chips, although there were a few jokes because we were quite behind what the rest of the world could make.
No argument that we were significantly behind, by several generations and a huge amount of equipment overall. After reunification there was a gigantic flood of modern electronic equipment for labs and industry, a hundred times more and better than what we had in terms of both sophistication and capabilities. I mean, we had things like oscillographs, but very few - after reunification you order them very cheaply even for private use - and a few generations behind what the new equipment could do. Similar with computers, we still mostly had 8 bit and very few very expensive 16 bit units.
[0] https://www.robotrontechnik.de/index.htm?/html/computer/kc_m...
[1] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/PC_1715
[2] Computers in the GDR https://www.elektromuseum.de/wissen-computer-ddr.html
The GDR was the most developed of the Eastern Bloc countries, by a large factor. Roughly 2x the GDP per capita of the USSR. The GDR dominated the Eastern Bloc computer industry and were usually ahead of the USSR in terms of IC manufacturing.
I was a Czechoslovak kid, I was 8 years old in 1986.
Western electronics was expensive and rare. Industrial computers (mainframes) existed, but only specialists would come into contact with them.
Local industry tried to produce some clones of Western Sinclairs, Amigas etc., like Didaktik Gama [0]. But 1986 was too early to actually meet those "in the wild" among non-elite people. My first classmate had a Didaktik in 1988. We were all curious about it.
There also were computer fan clubs, where curious young guys would meet around those few computers that they could get access to.
[0] https://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Didaktik_Gama
Western electronics was expensive and rare. Industrial computers (mainframes) existed, but only specialists would come into contact with them.
Local industry tried to produce some clones of Western Sinclairs, Amigas etc., like Didaktik Gama [0]. But 1986 was too early to actually meet those "in the wild" among non-elite people. My first classmate had a Didaktik in 1988. We were all curious about it.
There also were computer fan clubs, where curious young guys would meet around those few computers that they could get access to.
[0] https://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Didaktik_Gama
I was in Prague in 1995. I worked for a little while helping to set up the Terminal Bar. While there there were a few Czech guys using Czech websites.
I remember one of them was some sort of social media on a webpage. They could chat via the webpage.
That was a very early (earliest I had seen) implementation of chat / social media on a website.
Good work Czechs!
I remember one of them was some sort of social media on a webpage. They could chat via the webpage.
That was a very early (earliest I had seen) implementation of chat / social media on a website.
Good work Czechs!
You should go to meet Adam Dingle... he works as a teacher at Charles University. I'm sure he would be very interested to meet you and hear more about these days. He is also quite an interesting software guy. He's a friend... tell him Matt sent you.
There were numerous spectrum clones as well built from local parts. My dad built one himself, actually made a business out of selling these in 87-88. As far as i know there were plenty of them in my small town back in Lithuania.
Bigger machines, PC clones were definitely a rarity.
Bigger machines, PC clones were definitely a rarity.
>Note that the Eastern Bloc countries had it better than USSR at that time
Poland was absolutely not - notice that collapse of communist Poland is what pushed a lot of those "revolutions" over the edge.
Yet even Poland's "educational" computer Elwro 800 Junior [0] was created in 4500 units in 1986.
The first truly widespread "computing device" was Pegasus console - clone of NES. [1]
[0] https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elwro_800_Junior
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pegasus_(console)
Poland was absolutely not - notice that collapse of communist Poland is what pushed a lot of those "revolutions" over the edge.
Yet even Poland's "educational" computer Elwro 800 Junior [0] was created in 4500 units in 1986.
The first truly widespread "computing device" was Pegasus console - clone of NES. [1]
[0] https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elwro_800_Junior
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pegasus_(console)
I was a kid from a small town in '80s Poland (the poorest part of it). The local secondary school had a whole Elwro-equipped classroom.
Many of my friends had 8-bit computers: the first one I encountered in 1986 was a ZX Spectrum, owned by my friend whose father worked in UK. I recall visiting classmates between 1986-89 and playing for hours on their Spectrums, C64s and Ataris (800XL, 65XE). The local community centre had Atari 520ST (or maybe two?) and it was available for the local kids to play with.
I estimate that in '89 my town of 5k had at least 20 computers.
Pegasus arrived in 1991 but many of the 8-bit owners already upgraded to Amigas, which were really common in my area.
Pegasus arrived in 1991 but many of the 8-bit owners already upgraded to Amigas, which were really common in my area.
According to Wikipedia [0], By 1989, there were over 200,000 computers in the country.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_computing_in_the_So...
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_computing_in_the_So...
The USSR produced some 20000 Apple II clones in '88 and '89. In the meantime, Apple had released the IIci, and there were apparently 100,000 internet hosts (almost all of them in the USA) alone by 1989. The gap was enormous.
I have heard from a former military officer in the USSR that this specific example was key to why Perestroika was adopted, and why the USSR fell.
The USSR noticed that the USA was developing personal computers. So had a 5 year plan to clone some of the personal computers. They succeeded. By which time the USA had personal computers in mass production that were 10x as good. The Soviets studied HOW the Americans were doing it, and Perestroika was their response. However the freedoms created by Perestroika destabilized authoritarian rule and, well, everyone knows the result.
The USSR noticed that the USA was developing personal computers. So had a 5 year plan to clone some of the personal computers. They succeeded. By which time the USA had personal computers in mass production that were 10x as good. The Soviets studied HOW the Americans were doing it, and Perestroika was their response. However the freedoms created by Perestroika destabilized authoritarian rule and, well, everyone knows the result.
Huh. Usually it's YouTubers who are the ones who rip off written articles verbatim, reading them as a voice over to generic B-roll video in order to churn out content. This is the first time I've seen a website do the opposite. Shows you how much the web is changing. Still, I hate this stuff. Did the blogger try to verify anything Asianometry said? Where did the YouTuber get his info? He doesn't say and the description of the video has no details.
As expected, the YT comments point out some of the issues of fact in the video.
As expected, the YT comments point out some of the issues of fact in the video.
Hackaday is an aggregator that summarizes and provides links to other interesting projects, videos, and blog posts. They've been doing this for a while now and it works well for their audience
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Depending on the "computer" definition, but without one, 10k seems too small number for the whole Soviet Union. Even brief fact check finds BK-0100 were to be used in all schools since 1984 in addition to Agat PC (Apple II clone) produced since 1983 aimed for schools too.
- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agat_(computer)
- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronika_BK
- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agat_(computer)
- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronika_BK
It is BS. Mid level family could import computer from west. Soviet countries manufactured several 8 bit Atari clones, HP programmable calculators....
I was a teenager in a typical Russian "mid-level family" back then, and there wasn't a single tangible opportunity around to import a computer from the west. Amiga and Commodore were things that I only heard about. An original imported ZX Spectrum was a status symbol -- though the homemade clones were gaining widespread popularity. There were clones of Nintendo systems (Dendy), but I wasn't (and still isn't) aware of any Atari clones. All Atari systems I've seen -- and I've seen plenty in my wild and reckless youth -- were original.
Can you back that with any numbers? Coming from a large soviet city of the era I wouldn't agree with this statement. People that had western computers I knew were usually children of party officials, prosecutors. The situation changed a lot from early '90.
As someone from a middle class soviet family born in early 1980s in a middle-size town the first time I've seen a western computer at home was only after USSR collapse (likely around 1995). It probably was a PC with i486 (or Cyrix clone of i486). During my school years (90s) only two or three my classmates had a computer at home and it were some Z80 clones produced either in the USSR/exUSSR or in the Eastern Block (in 90s PC were already available, but not affordable).
I know some soviet companies were able to procure western computers even in 1980s but for ordinary people it was out of reach until early 1990s or late 1980s at best (at least outside Moscow).
I know some soviet companies were able to procure western computers even in 1980s but for ordinary people it was out of reach until early 1990s or late 1980s at best (at least outside Moscow).
> Mid level family could import computer from west
In USSR mid level families didn't have legal access to imported goods.
In USSR mid level families didn't have legal access to imported goods.
That's a common misconception. The main barrier was that the soviet currency wasn't exchangeable and possession of the types that were (so e.g. USD) was illegal without official permission.
There was a chain of stores in the Soviet Union named Bierozka with western goods you could buy with USD - officially for tourists and workers from abroad.
Of course there was a flourishing currency exchange black market, but it was tolerated because it enabled the citizens to get rid of their foreign currency - something which the state wanted.
There was a chain of stores in the Soviet Union named Bierozka with western goods you could buy with USD - officially for tourists and workers from abroad.
Of course there was a flourishing currency exchange black market, but it was tolerated because it enabled the citizens to get rid of their foreign currency - something which the state wanted.
It's not true. There were official import channels. Not many consumer goods were imported but some were. Secondly, there were shops where travelers (sailors, pilots, etc) could sell the goods they bought abroad. Thirdly, soviet people worked abroad, e.g. building plants, factories, power stations. These people were paid in special kinds of checks and they could buy foreign goods in a network of special shops (Berezka). I know this because friends of my mom worked on building some powerplant in Egypt (I don't remember exactly, but it was Middle East I think) and bought many things with those checks.
The whole USSR existed thanks to free black market that was unoficially allowed (yet somehow controlled) by the state.
My uncle spent time in prison for selling imported goods.
Are we discussing the same USSR?
Are we discussing the same USSR?
That makes him kind of a social hero. My respect to him.
BK wasn't in mass production until 1986, Agat until 1985.
In 1986 very few schools had any computers, that's why USSR started to buy MSX computers - there were a lot of problems with local mass production.
> were to be used
This is the key phrase. The intent was there, but actual deployment in _some_ schools happened much later, in 1990-91.
Edit: emphasis
This is the key phrase. The intent was there, but actual deployment in _some_ schools happened much later, in 1990-91.
Edit: emphasis
Here's a comprehensive PhD thesis on domestic PC production in the Soviet Baltic States 1977-1992, defended in the University of Edinburgh. For the real deal, scroll to page 85, "Historical narratives": https://era.ed.ac.uk/bitstream/handle/1842/16452/Kanger2013....
I think the author is currently affiliated with University of Tartu, Estonia, and possibly also with University of Sussex in the field of technology research.
I think the author is currently affiliated with University of Tartu, Estonia, and possibly also with University of Sussex in the field of technology research.
A couple of awesome ones:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Setun
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kronos_(computer)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Setun
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kronos_(computer)
Weird that Wiki says Exelsior OS is single-user, it's multi-user actually: http://kronos.ru/sites/default/files/kronos_demo.gif
Whenever this comes up I can't help but romanticize about DSSP (forth-like with apparently a unique path). I wish I could read the source code and gather more about it.
The Setun and Ternary Computation. The idea of using toroidal magnetic cores instead of transistors. There's an irreducible romantic beauty and form to these computational amorphous objects.
The Setun and Ternary Computation. The idea of using toroidal magnetic cores instead of transistors. There's an irreducible romantic beauty and form to these computational amorphous objects.
> Why didn’t they have more computers? The story is interesting and you can see it in the video below.
Summary? (Can't watch video now.)
Summary? (Can't watch video now.)
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Socialism / communism.
US computer technology was largely enabled and sustained by public funds. A lot of the research was done with public funding, and a lot of the early computers were bought by the military. Literally the entire computer marker would not have existed had computers not been bought by the military until the 60's
In fact Soviet computer development was quite advanced for a homegrown solution.
In fact Soviet computer development was quite advanced for a homegrown solution.
Socializing the initial risky R&D costs but leaving market mechanisms to iterate is a common pattern in US innovation.
But I think the real difference was the relative wealth of the middle classes in each society, where the west tended to have a much wealthier society that could afford to spend more on early computers.
The video basically outlines a couple of differences (like party leadership betting on the wrong horse a couple of times), but seems to be driving by at the fact that they just had few enough buyers and didn’t iterate as fast as a result, meaning they had trouble with things like nailing down good yields. This snowballed.
But I think the real difference was the relative wealth of the middle classes in each society, where the west tended to have a much wealthier society that could afford to spend more on early computers.
The video basically outlines a couple of differences (like party leadership betting on the wrong horse a couple of times), but seems to be driving by at the fact that they just had few enough buyers and didn’t iterate as fast as a result, meaning they had trouble with things like nailing down good yields. This snowballed.
Yes, Silicon Valley grew out of quite sophisticated WW2 military R&D, so quite similar to USSR actually. I like this talk given at the Computer History Museum about the history of Silicon Valley, which was secret for many years: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTC_RxWN_xo
You can argue USSR lacked followup demand for computing from outside the military, and that this was caused by organizational issues. It’s probably pretty important to also state the relative wealth disparity at the start of the relevant period, from 1940 onwards, say. Russia was basically feudal in 1910, and it would be hard for advancement to catch up to US levels by 1940 no matter the organization of the economy, and then we have to account for the devastation of WW2 which followed (WW2 was expensive for US, but it didn’t lose industrial capacity except via opportunity cost).
I don’t say this as any kind of apologia, but think it makes more sense to compare USSR to less developed countries than US — where it still doesn’t compare favorably in many ways, but it’s far more interesting and debatable.
You can argue USSR lacked followup demand for computing from outside the military, and that this was caused by organizational issues. It’s probably pretty important to also state the relative wealth disparity at the start of the relevant period, from 1940 onwards, say. Russia was basically feudal in 1910, and it would be hard for advancement to catch up to US levels by 1940 no matter the organization of the economy, and then we have to account for the devastation of WW2 which followed (WW2 was expensive for US, but it didn’t lose industrial capacity except via opportunity cost).
I don’t say this as any kind of apologia, but think it makes more sense to compare USSR to less developed countries than US — where it still doesn’t compare favorably in many ways, but it’s far more interesting and debatable.
> Why didn’t they have more computers?
One of the reasons: ideology.
Replacing 50 people team with 5 people team and a computer (less people working less hard) while possible technically wasn't desirable.
One of the reasons: ideology.
Replacing 50 people team with 5 people team and a computer (less people working less hard) while possible technically wasn't desirable.
> One of the reasons: ideology.
No, it was more about bureaucracy. Why an existing organization might want a computer? There were no reasons for managers to want it. They didn't need to run to keep their jobs, they just had jobs. While they managed to do a "plan" they were successful managers. If they did 2% more they were super successful. If they did 50% more they interfered with the central planning and provoked a crisis of overproduction.
To work better then others is a bad idea. You work better, more productive, then next time you'll be forced to keep this productivity, and all around you also will be. And it doesn't mean a pay rise. Just more work. Blue collars figured it pretty easily. In some placed they would use their fists to explain you, that you must not work harder than others. So I'm sure did managers, though probably without using an educational physical punishment, they had other ways. There was no stimulus to do better.
And there is one more thing. If in USSR some organization got a computer, than it would be locked, and you'd need to ask to use it. In writing. And three copies of that. Because you can accidentally break this expensive machine, and your manager doesn't want to be kept responsible for it. It is easier for him to keep it locked. Moreover, it was not your immediate superior who would do it, it would be director of an organization. So you need to hop over several layers of management to get an access to a new shiny tech. And most of these layers are not interested in your bright ideas and they do not like to be hopped over. You need to do what you told to do, and everything else is not your business. Of course central planning with a one big bureaucracy for the whole country means that you might try to hop over the director of your organization, to write a letter to some really high-level bureaucrat, but it was risky, he might just relay your letter to your director, let him to deal with it.
It is not ideology, it is a management problem. Ideology mostly didn't work at '80. It was to keep people happy, but not to make management decisions. The system was built and it replaced ideology. It is like Terry Pratchett's "Small Gods" where omnian church replaced Om and didn't need him. Belief in Om was compulsory, but it was really a decorated belief in the church. Pratchett did a great work of describing this kind of situations.
No, it was more about bureaucracy. Why an existing organization might want a computer? There were no reasons for managers to want it. They didn't need to run to keep their jobs, they just had jobs. While they managed to do a "plan" they were successful managers. If they did 2% more they were super successful. If they did 50% more they interfered with the central planning and provoked a crisis of overproduction.
To work better then others is a bad idea. You work better, more productive, then next time you'll be forced to keep this productivity, and all around you also will be. And it doesn't mean a pay rise. Just more work. Blue collars figured it pretty easily. In some placed they would use their fists to explain you, that you must not work harder than others. So I'm sure did managers, though probably without using an educational physical punishment, they had other ways. There was no stimulus to do better.
And there is one more thing. If in USSR some organization got a computer, than it would be locked, and you'd need to ask to use it. In writing. And three copies of that. Because you can accidentally break this expensive machine, and your manager doesn't want to be kept responsible for it. It is easier for him to keep it locked. Moreover, it was not your immediate superior who would do it, it would be director of an organization. So you need to hop over several layers of management to get an access to a new shiny tech. And most of these layers are not interested in your bright ideas and they do not like to be hopped over. You need to do what you told to do, and everything else is not your business. Of course central planning with a one big bureaucracy for the whole country means that you might try to hop over the director of your organization, to write a letter to some really high-level bureaucrat, but it was risky, he might just relay your letter to your director, let him to deal with it.
It is not ideology, it is a management problem. Ideology mostly didn't work at '80. It was to keep people happy, but not to make management decisions. The system was built and it replaced ideology. It is like Terry Pratchett's "Small Gods" where omnian church replaced Om and didn't need him. Belief in Om was compulsory, but it was really a decorated belief in the church. Pratchett did a great work of describing this kind of situations.
> If in USSR some organization got a computer, than it would be locked, and you'd need to ask to use it. In writing. And three copies of that.
:) That's not how I remember it.
:) That's not how I remember it.
I don't think of ideology as the right way to look at this, Soviet ideology was very much pro progress and pro labor saving devices. But in any organization bosses often don't like to have the number of people under their command reduced. This is just as true in corporations and government departments as it was in the USSR. But in capitalism you have market competition fighting against this tendency, and in democracy you have the opposition party looking for waste to complain about. So while it still happens it doesn't tend to get entirely out of hand the way it did in the USSR.
> But in any organization bosses often don't like to have the number of people under their command reduced.
This accounts for the "flunkies" class of Bullshit Jobs [1]. And I don't think that capitalism is particularly effective in keeping this type of jobs in control as company grows. Because outside of the personal prestige of a manager, there's also the corporate facade. E.g. banks often prefer to keep paying redundant employees rather than laying them off, which would signal that they're having problems.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullshit_Jobs
This accounts for the "flunkies" class of Bullshit Jobs [1]. And I don't think that capitalism is particularly effective in keeping this type of jobs in control as company grows. Because outside of the personal prestige of a manager, there's also the corporate facade. E.g. banks often prefer to keep paying redundant employees rather than laying them off, which would signal that they're having problems.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullshit_Jobs
> Why didn’t they have more computers?
> The USSR was hardly a backward country — they’d launched Sputnik
> It (the computer) performed 250,000 calculations for artillery tables in about 2 and half hours.
> Nearly all the computer usage was in the military and academia.
One common argument ideologically charged people make to counter capitalism advancements is that cell phones were invented in the USSR. That might be the case but I suspect such technology was never intended to be distributed to the common person but for war and propaganda. I'm not a big fan of this kind of incentive.
> The USSR was hardly a backward country — they’d launched Sputnik
> It (the computer) performed 250,000 calculations for artillery tables in about 2 and half hours.
> Nearly all the computer usage was in the military and academia.
One common argument ideologically charged people make to counter capitalism advancements is that cell phones were invented in the USSR. That might be the case but I suspect such technology was never intended to be distributed to the common person but for war and propaganda. I'm not a big fan of this kind of incentive.
USSR was almost destroyed by German invasion in 1941-1945. Because most of the population and almost all the industry resided (and continue to reside) in the western part of Russia/USSR, Germany destroyed immense amount of industry, infrastructure, houses, schools, hospitals. Even after capturing territories, Germany destroyed industrial plants because their plan was to completely eliminate people of Russian nationality and to use the captured lands for agriculture - to feed the Third Reich.
Also, they killed almost 30 million of young productive citizen of USSR.
It was a huge knock which almost no other country ever endured. And it set back the development of USSR.
Also, those comments about war and propaganda are also inaccurate. USA started much more wars than USSR/Russia, and as the result of those wars USA killed at least 20 million of people, destroyed infrastructure and industry, plundered resources, e.g. oil of Iraq and Libya. And haven't built anything.
If you'd really study the history, although I'm pretty sure you won't find any accurate information about USSR in the western history books, you'll learn, for example, how USSR built kindergardens, hospitals, schools and industry in Afghanistan and other countries. Investing the money and labor of Russian people in 3rd world countries. Had ever USA did the same?.. Other than printing another billion of USD and "giving" it to some other country, with 90% disappearing in somebody's pocket in transit.
And don't get me even started on propaganda. Do you believe western society doesn't have propaganda? How comes then that you all have the same opinion about everything? Especially on external politics.
Also, they killed almost 30 million of young productive citizen of USSR.
It was a huge knock which almost no other country ever endured. And it set back the development of USSR.
Also, those comments about war and propaganda are also inaccurate. USA started much more wars than USSR/Russia, and as the result of those wars USA killed at least 20 million of people, destroyed infrastructure and industry, plundered resources, e.g. oil of Iraq and Libya. And haven't built anything.
If you'd really study the history, although I'm pretty sure you won't find any accurate information about USSR in the western history books, you'll learn, for example, how USSR built kindergardens, hospitals, schools and industry in Afghanistan and other countries. Investing the money and labor of Russian people in 3rd world countries. Had ever USA did the same?.. Other than printing another billion of USD and "giving" it to some other country, with 90% disappearing in somebody's pocket in transit.
And don't get me even started on propaganda. Do you believe western society doesn't have propaganda? How comes then that you all have the same opinion about everything? Especially on external politics.
I'm not downsizing the capacity of their industrial and engineering prowess. I'm questioned the incentives. During the 50s the US and USSR promoted national exhibitions about each countries products and technology. The USSR exhibition happened in America and likewise the US exhibition happened in Moscow.
Guess which side was more stunned by the achievements of the other country? The USSR version was all about satellites and factory projects while the US version was a showcase of modern housing utensils. This triggered the famous "Kitchen Debate" between Nixon and Krushev.
In fact Nikita who had tasted Pepsi for the first time during the exhibition liked it so much he ordered tons of syrup. They paid in vodka and then in military ships. This is an interesting story about how Pepsi became one of the largest military forces of the planet for a very brief time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrwMrPIHOIw
So my entire point is yes Soviet tech might have been impressive but the incentives were never to deliver this technology into the hands of common people. All those nice computers were used to stuff like calculate artillery precision.
As for the propaganda part, the USSR suffered from a severe form of NIN illness. If the west can do it then we need to do it too! See Tupolev 144.
Guess which side was more stunned by the achievements of the other country? The USSR version was all about satellites and factory projects while the US version was a showcase of modern housing utensils. This triggered the famous "Kitchen Debate" between Nixon and Krushev.
In fact Nikita who had tasted Pepsi for the first time during the exhibition liked it so much he ordered tons of syrup. They paid in vodka and then in military ships. This is an interesting story about how Pepsi became one of the largest military forces of the planet for a very brief time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrwMrPIHOIw
So my entire point is yes Soviet tech might have been impressive but the incentives were never to deliver this technology into the hands of common people. All those nice computers were used to stuff like calculate artillery precision.
As for the propaganda part, the USSR suffered from a severe form of NIN illness. If the west can do it then we need to do it too! See Tupolev 144.
C'mon, let's be honest. Computing technology in the US for the first couple decades was all about calculating artillery and navigating ships and fighter jets, too.
The initial push to computing tech came from the need for cryptographic and artillery purposes. The true first microprocessor was the Central Air Data Computer in the F-14 fighter jet. The defense industry in many ways led the way on almost all fronts -- super computing, networking (DARPA etc), cryptography, etc. etc.
Initial public and defence investment. Later, private market application. The USSR mostly lacked the latter, though.
The initial push to computing tech came from the need for cryptographic and artillery purposes. The true first microprocessor was the Central Air Data Computer in the F-14 fighter jet. The defense industry in many ways led the way on almost all fronts -- super computing, networking (DARPA etc), cryptography, etc. etc.
Initial public and defence investment. Later, private market application. The USSR mostly lacked the latter, though.
Not really. Business applications were key to computers success in USA.
First really widely used microprocessor had zero connections to the military.
USSR copied OS/360 not because of military's requests, but because it lacked computers for civil applications and lacked software for it. OS/360 was never a military project in USA.
USSR copied OS/360 not because of military's requests, but because it lacked computers for civil applications and lacked software for it. OS/360 was never a military project in USA.
During the 50s the USSR had yet to spend lots of resources to restore the country after the war. USSR also knew very well that even before the WWII ended, US already had plans to destroy it with nuclear weapons.
So we had to invest all the available resources into developing a technology that would protect us from US nuclear strike.
Although I agree that in many (but not all) cases USSR tried to copy western technology and goods, Tu-144 is a bad example as it had flown 2 months before the Concord, so it clearly couldn't be a copy of Concord.
So we had to invest all the available resources into developing a technology that would protect us from US nuclear strike.
Although I agree that in many (but not all) cases USSR tried to copy western technology and goods, Tu-144 is a bad example as it had flown 2 months before the Concord, so it clearly couldn't be a copy of Concord.
USSR wanted world dominance, not peace with USA.
Iran was first target, then Turkey. USSR demanded Libya.
Then Korea happened.
It wasn't about protection of USSR, it was about exporting communism to other countries.
It wasn't about protection of USSR, it was about exporting communism to other countries.
Yes, the USSR and its citizens suffered a lot in WW II. Yes of course that set back USSR technological innovation.
Trying to weigh what state did more damage is not a useful metric. Recognising specific damage _is_ useful.
Here's an example of really bad stuff by the USSR government I'm intimately familiar with. Friends had their relatives deported to Siberia by the USSR. Twice. This happened during both USSR occupations of Latvia, in 1941 (before the nazis arrived) and 1949 (right after they were kicked out). Some of them died. Some people I've met now in their sixties were born in a Siberian gulag in the mid-1950's. They were not alone to suffer. A bit over 2% of Latvia's population was deported.
Does any other injustice somehow make that less wrong? No.
Trying to weigh what state did more damage is not a useful metric. Recognising specific damage _is_ useful.
Here's an example of really bad stuff by the USSR government I'm intimately familiar with. Friends had their relatives deported to Siberia by the USSR. Twice. This happened during both USSR occupations of Latvia, in 1941 (before the nazis arrived) and 1949 (right after they were kicked out). Some of them died. Some people I've met now in their sixties were born in a Siberian gulag in the mid-1950's. They were not alone to suffer. A bit over 2% of Latvia's population was deported.
Does any other injustice somehow make that less wrong? No.
My comment wasn't about justice. It's about that when your country is basically destroyed: nearly all young men killed and the remaining population has their homes destroyed, you have all the industry and agriculture destroyed as well, it's very hard to make excellent consumer goods and personal computers for everyone. First, you need to rebuild the houses for the people, it's a lot of work. Then you need to feed the people. Then you need to restore the industry to give people jobs and prepare for the next inevitable invasion.
And BTW, despite all that, USSR invested a lot in development of those Baltic states like Latvia. Like really a lot. They were swimming in money compared to RSFSR or other republics (maybe only Georgia had the same level of allowance in the USSR). USSR built industry and power plants there, that they later happily sold for scrap after 1991. And closed fine nuclear power plant built for them by the USSR. Now they have no jobs, population is rapidly declining (during the "awful" USSR times it was growing), they have no energy. Good luck to them.
I think it was a mistake to invest so much in those states, one of the reasons for USSR decline. Russian people worked hard to make those Baltic states happy and now they are the most ungrateful nations saying only dirty words about USSR and Russia. Just as Georgia.
It seems the more you give to people, the more ungrateful they become. Just look at British/USA colonies: they still respect the master. E.g. Japan didn't invite Russia this year for the ceremony on the anniversary of US nuclear bombings. But invited USA. We joked: "Why the didn't invite us, but invited USA that bombed them? Because without USA this ceremony wouldn't even exist in the first place".
And BTW, despite all that, USSR invested a lot in development of those Baltic states like Latvia. Like really a lot. They were swimming in money compared to RSFSR or other republics (maybe only Georgia had the same level of allowance in the USSR). USSR built industry and power plants there, that they later happily sold for scrap after 1991. And closed fine nuclear power plant built for them by the USSR. Now they have no jobs, population is rapidly declining (during the "awful" USSR times it was growing), they have no energy. Good luck to them.
I think it was a mistake to invest so much in those states, one of the reasons for USSR decline. Russian people worked hard to make those Baltic states happy and now they are the most ungrateful nations saying only dirty words about USSR and Russia. Just as Georgia.
It seems the more you give to people, the more ungrateful they become. Just look at British/USA colonies: they still respect the master. E.g. Japan didn't invite Russia this year for the ceremony on the anniversary of US nuclear bombings. But invited USA. We joked: "Why the didn't invite us, but invited USA that bombed them? Because without USA this ceremony wouldn't even exist in the first place".
USSR never did anything good for Baltics - it created non-efficient factories and sent a lot of Russians to work there, while prosecuted most of the local pre-war elites.
In late 80s no one in USSR wanted to choose stuff from Latvia over imported goods. When USSR collapsed Latvia got a lot of non-efficient factories with dated equipment and had to close them and also masses of Russian factory workers who where very hostile to new Baltic states.
In late 80s no one in USSR wanted to choose stuff from Latvia over imported goods. When USSR collapsed Latvia got a lot of non-efficient factories with dated equipment and had to close them and also masses of Russian factory workers who where very hostile to new Baltic states.
"Russian people worked hard to make those Baltic states happy and now they are the most ungrateful nations saying only dirty words about USSR and Russia."
Ahem.
Ahem.
I didn't expect to find an actual Tankie here!
I agree, the USSR invested many many helicopters in Afghanistan. Many tanks too! Clearly money well-spent.
I agree, the USSR invested many many helicopters in Afghanistan. Many tanks too! Clearly money well-spent.
USSR built Kabul Polytechnic University and taught teachers that later worked there. It also was building industry where graduates would work.
What did USA did for Afghanistan besides bombing it into stone age and leaving tons of weapons and deceived people behind?
What did USA did for Afghanistan besides bombing it into stone age and leaving tons of weapons and deceived people behind?
That's actually a great example. The Kabul Polytechnic University was defunct when the US showed up in 2001. That's what the USSR left behind in Afghanistan — the Taliban and a stone-age culture. Nothing else except death.
The Kabul Polytechnic University has remained open since 2002 when the US set up a new government.
Will it last? Who knows. But so far, the US has left a stronger positive legacy than the USSR ever managed.
The Kabul Polytechnic University has remained open since 2002 when the US set up a new government.
Will it last? Who knows. But so far, the US has left a stronger positive legacy than the USSR ever managed.
There's a very simple explanation - namely USA had untouched industry with already big investment into computer-related areas by the end of the war, while europe was heavily destroyed, and USSR not only got heavily hit in industry, agriculture and manpower, but also even by 1991 didn't really stop being on a crash build-up program due to Russian Empire being, well, a shithole[1]. The trade war component of Cold War meant that while cooperation (or plain exploitation) in the west made certain stuff more available, that didn't happen to East of the divide, even disregarding issues in how industry was run (which aren't necessarily due to "socialism", but get associated with it).
[1] In Poland, the eastern side of the country is still noticeably less developed, with lower development marking the parts that were in Russian Partition - and that was one of the (on average) best developed regions in Tsardom.
[1] In Poland, the eastern side of the country is still noticeably less developed, with lower development marking the parts that were in Russian Partition - and that was one of the (on average) best developed regions in Tsardom.
People romanticising the idea of communism and USSR probably never lived under such a system or base their opinion on propaganda.
That being said, if teachers found you had a talent for engineering and you weren't from a blacklisted family, your life would be completely owned by the state. You would be brainwashed and manipulated to become the engineer the state wants and then as a reward sent off to a prison city living and working with other engineers for the rest of your life. One mistake, wrong comment about the regime and you would end up in the forest with a bullet in your head. That's why they had some impressive advancements here and there, but in the grand scheme of things USSR was just one big pile of steaming excrement.
That being said, if teachers found you had a talent for engineering and you weren't from a blacklisted family, your life would be completely owned by the state. You would be brainwashed and manipulated to become the engineer the state wants and then as a reward sent off to a prison city living and working with other engineers for the rest of your life. One mistake, wrong comment about the regime and you would end up in the forest with a bullet in your head. That's why they had some impressive advancements here and there, but in the grand scheme of things USSR was just one big pile of steaming excrement.
I think your comment is purely based on propaganda.
The comment is false on so many levels. Maybe be it describes the 30's and Stalinism but nothing like that was from 50's and onward.
It was happening https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed_city#Russia
Closed cities were a thing, but they weren't prisons. And "you would end up in the forest with a bullet in your head" certainly wasn't a thing from the 60s on.
People denigrating USSR/communism are also repeating the same thoughts induced by the very powerful western propaganda. These things that you repeat: "blacklisted family", "owned by the state", "brainwashed and manipulated", "prison city", "forest with a bullet in your head" - all of them didn't exist in the USSR (maybe for a short period of time after the October revolution).
USSR wasn't an ideal society, but you're either inventing imaginary horrors or repeating lies invented by somebody else.
USSR wasn't an ideal society, but you're either inventing imaginary horrors or repeating lies invented by somebody else.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Setun
Instead of the first bit being 1 or 0, the second being 2 or 0, etc you have different scheme where the first bit is 1, 0, or -1 the second is 3, 0, or -3, etc. So 2 would be 3 + (-1).