Parents coordinate trading of chicken pox-laced goods via Facebook(blog.sfgate.com)
blog.sfgate.com
Parents coordinate trading of chicken pox-laced goods via Facebook
http://blog.sfgate.com/sfmoms/2011/11/04/parents-ordering-chicken-pox-lollipops-through-facebook/
34 comments
In the UK and NZ, the vaccine is only given to those at-risk from Chickenpox. Children don't receive it as a matter of policy, and I don't believe adults who've never caught the disease are normally offered it, either.
One of the reasons/theories I've heard for this, is that if you've had Chickenpox, you are at-risk for Shingles -- which is often extremely painful and difficult to overcome. However, if you are regularly exposed to Chickenpox, your immune-system gets "reawakened" to the virus, therefore can more-quickly recognise and fight-off a recurrance, before it becomes Shingles.
One of the easiest ways to aid this exposure is to keep the virus active, but under-control, in the community. This has a useful side-effect of the community also being aware and more-knowledgeable about the disease, too.
Another argument I've heard against the vaccine is that it's simply not possible to get rid of Chickenpox totally -- it's _highly_ infectious, and the infectious stage is before symptoms appear, etc -- but the vaccine gives a false sense of security of protection, perhaps in the same way as everyone thinks they're safe from Smallpox, Hepatitis, Ebola, etc because we worked so hard to get rid of or control it.
One of the reasons/theories I've heard for this, is that if you've had Chickenpox, you are at-risk for Shingles -- which is often extremely painful and difficult to overcome. However, if you are regularly exposed to Chickenpox, your immune-system gets "reawakened" to the virus, therefore can more-quickly recognise and fight-off a recurrance, before it becomes Shingles.
One of the easiest ways to aid this exposure is to keep the virus active, but under-control, in the community. This has a useful side-effect of the community also being aware and more-knowledgeable about the disease, too.
Another argument I've heard against the vaccine is that it's simply not possible to get rid of Chickenpox totally -- it's _highly_ infectious, and the infectious stage is before symptoms appear, etc -- but the vaccine gives a false sense of security of protection, perhaps in the same way as everyone thinks they're safe from Smallpox, Hepatitis, Ebola, etc because we worked so hard to get rid of or control it.
These individuals need to be punished, and if they don't stop, children taken away from them.
Is growing up without one's parents less harmful than getting a common childhood disease from a friend? Who is going to pay to punish the parents and relocate the children?
Is growing up without one's parents less harmful than getting a common childhood disease from a friend? Who is going to pay to punish the parents and relocate the children?
I don't see knowingly exposing ones child to an infectious disease, that could be life threatening (people die from complications from shingles), any different than leaving the child in a hot car in the summer or say beating them. If you read the article this is also happening with mumps, rubella and other infectious diseases.
> Is growing up without one's parents less harmful ...
After a certain point yes. Because being crippled or dead is better than growing up with abusive parents sometimes.
> Is growing up without one's parents less harmful ...
After a certain point yes. Because being crippled or dead is better than growing up with abusive parents sometimes.
This may not be a case of stupidity. It could very well be simple ignorance that a chicken pox vaccine exists. Until I saw this article, I was previously unaware that a vaccine for chicken pox was ever developed.
Same here.
After researching it, in most of Europe, children do not get vaccinated from chicken pox. We have no special higher rate of incidence of the disease either in totality or as adults.
The only time the vaccine is ever given out here is for those at special risk, e.g. adult healthcare workers who are not already immune or those who live around people with compromised immune systems.
Also, ironically, where the chicken pox vaccine is widely used, e.g. in the US (unlike most places in the world), there is no natural external boosting of immunity from being exposed to others with chicken pox, so therefore MORE injections may be needed later.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varicella_vaccine
After researching it, in most of Europe, children do not get vaccinated from chicken pox. We have no special higher rate of incidence of the disease either in totality or as adults.
The only time the vaccine is ever given out here is for those at special risk, e.g. adult healthcare workers who are not already immune or those who live around people with compromised immune systems.
Also, ironically, where the chicken pox vaccine is widely used, e.g. in the US (unlike most places in the world), there is no natural external boosting of immunity from being exposed to others with chicken pox, so therefore MORE injections may be needed later.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varicella_vaccine
I was addressing those referenced in the article who specifically refuse a vaccine after it is suggested to them because "it gives the immune system a workout".
What do you say the relative of someone who had a vaccine and immediately became crippled and couldn't walk because the reaction damaged their inner-ear? Just co-incidence? No p-value with a sample of one? Would you make them take that vaccine? Or let 'em slide on this one? I'm not sure your government regulations would deal with this case.
The immune system is an organ like the muscles, brain and heart. Putting a little stress on these organs is actually good. Just because the autism/vaccine fiasco was fraud doesn't invalidate all concerns. For instance the school system forcing girls to get "anti-cancer" vaccines when there is an effect alternative (i.e. "dont' be a promiscuous"). The parents can make that choice ... or the kid when she becomes a teenager. If polio or small-pox are threats, certainly the good out weighs the bad. But chicken-pox? Not so clear cut. AIDS? Again, don't sleep around and dont jab things in your body and you won't get AIDS.
The immune system is an organ like the muscles, brain and heart. Putting a little stress on these organs is actually good. Just because the autism/vaccine fiasco was fraud doesn't invalidate all concerns. For instance the school system forcing girls to get "anti-cancer" vaccines when there is an effect alternative (i.e. "dont' be a promiscuous"). The parents can make that choice ... or the kid when she becomes a teenager. If polio or small-pox are threats, certainly the good out weighs the bad. But chicken-pox? Not so clear cut. AIDS? Again, don't sleep around and dont jab things in your body and you won't get AIDS.
> The immune system is an organ like the muscles, brain and heart. Putting a little stress on these organs is actually good.
That kind of armchair immunology and microbiology would exactly be prevented by harsher regulations. This analogy and hunch might not just hurt your child, but if your child gets infected, they could infect infants at a doctors office who have not yet gotten their immunizations.
> For instance the school system forcing girls to get "anti-cancer" vaccines when there is an effect alternative (i.e. "dont' be a promiscuous").
OK agree with you there, however there is no easy way to prevent many of these infectious diseases.
That kind of armchair immunology and microbiology would exactly be prevented by harsher regulations. This analogy and hunch might not just hurt your child, but if your child gets infected, they could infect infants at a doctors office who have not yet gotten their immunizations.
> For instance the school system forcing girls to get "anti-cancer" vaccines when there is an effect alternative (i.e. "dont' be a promiscuous").
OK agree with you there, however there is no easy way to prevent many of these infectious diseases.
re no need for a hypothetical aids vaccine (or the cervical cancer one) if you don't "sleep around" or take drugs:
I assume that you've never heard about rape? Or for that matter coming into contact with HIV positive blood in an accident, or any other infection vector?
I assume that you've never heard about rape? Or for that matter coming into contact with HIV positive blood in an accident, or any other infection vector?
Yes. I have heard about "other infection vectors" with AIDS. I'm guessing the double entendre of "jab things into your body" escaped you.
"jab things into your body" is not the only such vector. There is also "having things jabbed into your body" (a subtle but important distinction).
Your post implies that if someone is infected with the HIV virus it's their own fault. This assumption is toxic, and makes people more hesitant to apply resources towards trying to treat and cure people with this disease. It's like telling a person with lung cancer that "It's your own damn fault for smoking" when it is perfectly possible to develop lung cancer without ever having a smoke.
Your post implies that if someone is infected with the HIV virus it's their own fault. This assumption is toxic, and makes people more hesitant to apply resources towards trying to treat and cure people with this disease. It's like telling a person with lung cancer that "It's your own damn fault for smoking" when it is perfectly possible to develop lung cancer without ever having a smoke.
>What do you say the relative of someone who had a vaccine and immediately became crippled and couldn't walk because the reaction damaged their inner-ear?
The same thing you say to the person who got struck by lightning five times. On a societal level, you work with the 99.99999%.
>The immune system is an organ like the muscles, brain and heart. Putting a little stress on these organs is actually good.
Just to verify: you took one bio course as a college underclassman and you think that makes you an immunologist.
The same thing you say to the person who got struck by lightning five times. On a societal level, you work with the 99.99999%.
>The immune system is an organ like the muscles, brain and heart. Putting a little stress on these organs is actually good.
Just to verify: you took one bio course as a college underclassman and you think that makes you an immunologist.
Clarification: I did not take any undergraduate biology courses.
You don't need prestige academic credentials to read about it in the popular press, type in some search terms, and come up with this : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hygiene_hypothesis . There is no checking of your SAT scores or college GPA or anything inorder to do this, so give it a try. They may track you via cookies, but I recommend taking a chance.
You don't need prestige academic credentials to read about it in the popular press, type in some search terms, and come up with this : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hygiene_hypothesis . There is no checking of your SAT scores or college GPA or anything inorder to do this, so give it a try. They may track you via cookies, but I recommend taking a chance.
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I mean, famously the popular press and internet provide a totally infallible account of information.
Here's the scoop. I did take undergraduate biology courses. I studied biochemistry to bachelors and masters degree level, and I can tell you for absolutely nothing that the "popular media's" interpretation of science is pretty frequently bordering irresponsible. The media is there to sell papers.
Your analysis of the need-case for an AIDS (and HPV) vaccine is ignorant and frankly offensive.
Here's the scoop. I did take undergraduate biology courses. I studied biochemistry to bachelors and masters degree level, and I can tell you for absolutely nothing that the "popular media's" interpretation of science is pretty frequently bordering irresponsible. The media is there to sell papers.
Your analysis of the need-case for an AIDS (and HPV) vaccine is ignorant and frankly offensive.
How is preventing aids by not engaging in man on man encounters and shooting illegal drugs ignorant and offensive?
Well, aside from being completely false...
http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/surveillance/basic.htm
http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/surveillance/basic.htm
For starters, blatant homophobia. Risk of AIDS is hardly limited to illegal drug users and gays. Medical professionals and police officers are fairly often exposed to blood (and other bodily fluids), either accidentally or intentionally, in the process of dealing professionally with people at higher than normal risk of carrying AIDS (or other infectious agents).
It's called the hygiene hypothesis, not the vaccine hypothesis. Let's take a look:
>In medicine, the Hygiene Hypothesis states that a lack of early childhood exposure to infectious agents, symbiotic microorganisms (e.g., gut flora or probiotics)
Okay, so if you've had the chicken pox vaccine, your immune system has been exposed to infectious agents -- just inactivated ones! The kind that don't cause shingles. Vaccines do stimulate an immune response, after all.
The article you linked contains precisely one reference to vaccination.
>Th2 immune disorders such as asthma and other allergic diseases are probably related to the hygiene hypothesis. A baby has many Th2 cells, which stimulate the production of antibodies. When not sufficiently stimulated with early life diseases, the immune system will have too many Th2 cells present, leading to a greater risk of Th2 immune disorder. If a child is exposed to infection diseases then the cell defense will be stimulated via Th1 cells causing a reduction of Th2 cells and subsequently a reduction of antibody stimulation by Th2 and therefore a lower risk of developing an allergic disease such as asthma. Unfortunately, vaccination only uses the Th2 mechanism.
Interesting. I wonder if there's some data to back this up?
http://journals.lww.com/pidj/Abstract/2002/06000/Childhood_v...
>There is no association between diphtheria, tetanus and whole cell pertussis vaccine, oral polio vaccine or measles, mumps and rubella vaccine and the risk of asthma. The weak associations for Hib and hepatitis B vaccines seem to be at least partially accounted for by health care utilization or information bias.
This was a study with n > 100000. That's a good study. Apparently vaccines don't cause athsma.
On the other hand, there actually appears to be some hope that vaccines can fight athsma:
http://www.jimmunol.org/content/166/2/959.short
>Vaccination with Allergen-IL-18 Fusion DNA Protects Against, and Reverses Established, Airway Hyperreactivity in a Murine Asthma Model
http://www.jimmunol.org/content/167/7/3792.short
>Active vaccination against IL-5 reduces key pathological events associated with asthma, such as Th2 cytokine production, airways inflammation, and hyperresponsiveness, and thus represents a novel therapeutic approach for the treatment of asthma and other allergic conditions.
"The miracle of modern medicine."
>In medicine, the Hygiene Hypothesis states that a lack of early childhood exposure to infectious agents, symbiotic microorganisms (e.g., gut flora or probiotics)
Okay, so if you've had the chicken pox vaccine, your immune system has been exposed to infectious agents -- just inactivated ones! The kind that don't cause shingles. Vaccines do stimulate an immune response, after all.
The article you linked contains precisely one reference to vaccination.
>Th2 immune disorders such as asthma and other allergic diseases are probably related to the hygiene hypothesis. A baby has many Th2 cells, which stimulate the production of antibodies. When not sufficiently stimulated with early life diseases, the immune system will have too many Th2 cells present, leading to a greater risk of Th2 immune disorder. If a child is exposed to infection diseases then the cell defense will be stimulated via Th1 cells causing a reduction of Th2 cells and subsequently a reduction of antibody stimulation by Th2 and therefore a lower risk of developing an allergic disease such as asthma. Unfortunately, vaccination only uses the Th2 mechanism.
Interesting. I wonder if there's some data to back this up?
http://journals.lww.com/pidj/Abstract/2002/06000/Childhood_v...
>There is no association between diphtheria, tetanus and whole cell pertussis vaccine, oral polio vaccine or measles, mumps and rubella vaccine and the risk of asthma. The weak associations for Hib and hepatitis B vaccines seem to be at least partially accounted for by health care utilization or information bias.
This was a study with n > 100000. That's a good study. Apparently vaccines don't cause athsma.
On the other hand, there actually appears to be some hope that vaccines can fight athsma:
http://www.jimmunol.org/content/166/2/959.short
>Vaccination with Allergen-IL-18 Fusion DNA Protects Against, and Reverses Established, Airway Hyperreactivity in a Murine Asthma Model
http://www.jimmunol.org/content/167/7/3792.short
>Active vaccination against IL-5 reduces key pathological events associated with asthma, such as Th2 cytokine production, airways inflammation, and hyperresponsiveness, and thus represents a novel therapeutic approach for the treatment of asthma and other allergic conditions.
"The miracle of modern medicine."
Excellent points. Much appreciated. My point is that just dealing with the flu, chicken pox, some transient herpesvirae infections, etc by letting the body's defences deal with it without actively vaccinating against them might be the best way to deal with problem. Often the body develops memory cells to defeat later similar infections on it's own. I am not convinced that the notion that we might over-vaccinate has been disproven.
Mailing contagious items: Not cool.
Local "pox party": I have no problem with it.
My ex caught chicken pox from our children around the time he turned 32. Chicken pox in adults is much more serious than in children. I finally dragged him to a doctor against his will after watching his fever go up 0.8 degrees a day every single day until it was over 104F. Above 105 is dangerous. It was on track to hit that mark within the next 24 hours. Years later, he swore it was never really that bad (ie his life was never really in danger). I suspect he partly just didn't remember how bad it was. He wasn't lucid for much of the time. He was left with much worse scars than the kids. He had fantasies he would stay home from work and play computer games, like the kids. For at least a week, he laid on the couch, unable to sit up for long. I had to leave meds in a covered candy dish to get any sleep. His hands were swollen and his palms had spots on them, so he couldn't open his medication bottles.
Local "pox party": I have no problem with it.
My ex caught chicken pox from our children around the time he turned 32. Chicken pox in adults is much more serious than in children. I finally dragged him to a doctor against his will after watching his fever go up 0.8 degrees a day every single day until it was over 104F. Above 105 is dangerous. It was on track to hit that mark within the next 24 hours. Years later, he swore it was never really that bad (ie his life was never really in danger). I suspect he partly just didn't remember how bad it was. He wasn't lucid for much of the time. He was left with much worse scars than the kids. He had fantasies he would stay home from work and play computer games, like the kids. For at least a week, he laid on the couch, unable to sit up for long. I had to leave meds in a covered candy dish to get any sleep. His hands were swollen and his palms had spots on them, so he couldn't open his medication bottles.
s/Not cool/Illegal/
IIRC
And, that would be violation of Federal law. Documented on FB?... No thanks.
My father caught chicken pox as an adult, while travelling. It nearly killed him.
P.S. Looked at the story (duh). Says the same thing. Anyway, I'll leave my personal anecdote FWIW.
IIRC
And, that would be violation of Federal law. Documented on FB?... No thanks.
My father caught chicken pox as an adult, while travelling. It nearly killed him.
P.S. Looked at the story (duh). Says the same thing. Anyway, I'll leave my personal anecdote FWIW.
I imagine it is illegal (someone else already said that here). Law and morality are not the same thing and are fairly often at odds. Historically in the US, slavery was legal at one time in some states. After it was abolished, racism was embodied in the legal code. Plenty of morally high minded people disagreed with those laws.
Whether legal or not, I don't find it acceptable. Similarly, on CF lists, people routinely post announcements that they have leftover medical supplies of some sort and are willing to give it away for free (sometimes on the condition that the recipient cover postage, sometimes not). This is generally viewed as socially acceptable on most CF lists because medical expenses for CF are extremely high and people coping with CF are typically financially devastated by that fact. On the only CF list I own, I announced that this was not an acceptable practice because I think the price of exposure to the germs of another person with CF outweighs the value of the supplies. So I think that's Not Cool either, even in cases where it happens to be legal (and legality of it varies by jurisdiction in this case and probably also depends on exactly what is being offered).
Whether legal or not, I don't find it acceptable. Similarly, on CF lists, people routinely post announcements that they have leftover medical supplies of some sort and are willing to give it away for free (sometimes on the condition that the recipient cover postage, sometimes not). This is generally viewed as socially acceptable on most CF lists because medical expenses for CF are extremely high and people coping with CF are typically financially devastated by that fact. On the only CF list I own, I announced that this was not an acceptable practice because I think the price of exposure to the germs of another person with CF outweighs the value of the supplies. So I think that's Not Cool either, even in cases where it happens to be legal (and legality of it varies by jurisdiction in this case and probably also depends on exactly what is being offered).
Given the way entrenched interests warp and these days even write the laws, I try to keep an independent mindset.
In this case, I have two points:
- If you're going to do something like this, coordinating it on FB is a stupid idea. (Mailing contagious materials without taking defined precautions is seriously frowned upon.)
- Mail is sometimes inspected. Misdelivered. Undeliverable. Damaged. In this case, it is most likely not marked as hazardous. What might one be inflicting upon the unsuspecting handler of such an error condition?
In this case, I have two points:
- If you're going to do something like this, coordinating it on FB is a stupid idea. (Mailing contagious materials without taking defined precautions is seriously frowned upon.)
- Mail is sometimes inspected. Misdelivered. Undeliverable. Damaged. In this case, it is most likely not marked as hazardous. What might one be inflicting upon the unsuspecting handler of such an error condition?
If you're going to do something like this, coordinating it on FB is a stupid idea.
Yes, I totally agree that coordinating something like this on FB (or many other websites) is pretty darn dumb. (Isn't there some Einstein quote about stupidity being infinite or something?)
As for your second point, I was an environmental studies major for a time. I really don't think most people think that far ahead. I hope, if nothing else, this does draw enough national attention to educate people as to how foolish and dangerous it is to mail contagious items. And, oh, breaking federal law by messing with the mail is very serious business. Much more so than many people might realize. Even if they don't get enlightened as to how dumb this is, perhaps they will at least get a clue that this detail is no small matter and can seriously impact their lives. I'm very okay with fear of the law being a deterrent to such activities in cases where "common sense" seems absent.
Yes, I totally agree that coordinating something like this on FB (or many other websites) is pretty darn dumb. (Isn't there some Einstein quote about stupidity being infinite or something?)
As for your second point, I was an environmental studies major for a time. I really don't think most people think that far ahead. I hope, if nothing else, this does draw enough national attention to educate people as to how foolish and dangerous it is to mail contagious items. And, oh, breaking federal law by messing with the mail is very serious business. Much more so than many people might realize. Even if they don't get enlightened as to how dumb this is, perhaps they will at least get a clue that this detail is no small matter and can seriously impact their lives. I'm very okay with fear of the law being a deterrent to such activities in cases where "common sense" seems absent.
I don't really see the hate for these people. You get the chicken pox once. The earlier in life you get it, the less troublesome it is.
I'm not going to argue against vaccinations, but the reality is that we have much more long-term data about having kids play together than the chicken pox vaccine. Both options are probably equally good at this point, and most people have personal experience with the first one and not the second one. Therefore it's not particularly odd to want your kid to get chicken pox naturally.
(I don't buy the argument about "giving the immune system a workout", though.)
I'm not going to argue against vaccinations, but the reality is that we have much more long-term data about having kids play together than the chicken pox vaccine. Both options are probably equally good at this point, and most people have personal experience with the first one and not the second one. Therefore it's not particularly odd to want your kid to get chicken pox naturally.
(I don't buy the argument about "giving the immune system a workout", though.)
Because sending highly infectious biological material through the mail system can be exceptionally hazardous for anyone who may come into contact with it. Adult chickenpox can be lethal.
>You get the chicken pox once.
False.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shingles
False.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shingles
Strictly speaking, it's not the same as Chickenpox, especially in symptoms and effect.
You can believe the unknowns associated with the new chicken pox vaccine aren't worth the well-known and manageable hassle of having the chicken pox, without also believing crazy things about vaccines causing autism or sending infections through the mail.
Exactly.
Inviting around other local kids to interact with each other to overcome the much heavier risks of the adult version of this disease or to go on frequent field trips to farms and rural areas while young so that kids bodies are no strangers to naturally occurring organisms and strengthen their immune system is VERY different from sending around contagions in the mail!
Risking affecting others without them knowing is very much a red line most sensible people would never cross.
Inviting around other local kids to interact with each other to overcome the much heavier risks of the adult version of this disease or to go on frequent field trips to farms and rural areas while young so that kids bodies are no strangers to naturally occurring organisms and strengthen their immune system is VERY different from sending around contagions in the mail!
Risking affecting others without them knowing is very much a red line most sensible people would never cross.
These individuals need to be punished, and if they don't stop, children taken away from them. I don't see this any different than harsh physical abuse.
All those participating in it, should be guilty of child endangerment as well.
In general those refusing to vaccinate their child should be forced to sign a waver form that would make it very easy to fast-track their prosecution for abuse and child endangerment if it can be shown the child has been infected and their life is in danger or has infected others.