IPv4 Transfer Pricing(ipv4marketgroup.com)
ipv4marketgroup.com
IPv4 Transfer Pricing
https://ipv4marketgroup.com/ipv4-pricing/
7 comments
I was involved in the sale of a /8 several years ago.
One thing that surprised me was that it was actually less cost-effective per IP to sell one large block. It made sense after I thought about it: you can count the potential buyers for a /8 on one hand, but there are tens of thousands of companies that would be willing to buy a /24 or two.
But a side effect of this was that we entered into an immediate long-term lease back for certain key ranges. Even though AWS may own 3/8, you probably won’t see anything in the 3.15/16 space advertised for the next 60 years.
Those edge cases might run deeper than you think, and we are certainly expecting them to last for a while.
One thing that surprised me was that it was actually less cost-effective per IP to sell one large block. It made sense after I thought about it: you can count the potential buyers for a /8 on one hand, but there are tens of thousands of companies that would be willing to buy a /24 or two.
But a side effect of this was that we entered into an immediate long-term lease back for certain key ranges. Even though AWS may own 3/8, you probably won’t see anything in the 3.15/16 space advertised for the next 60 years.
Those edge cases might run deeper than you think, and we are certainly expecting them to last for a while.
it looks like that used to be the case... the transfer pricing on the site says its around the same for a /17 or a /24...
> Even though AWS may own 3/8, you probably won’t see anything in the 3.15/16 space advertised for the next 60 years.
Why is that? Did i miss something?
> Even though AWS may own 3/8, you probably won’t see anything in the 3.15/16 space advertised for the next 60 years.
Why is that? Did i miss something?
> Why is that?
That's the long lived edge case – I didn't really go into detail, but what the heck.
AIUI, assigning a new IP address to a mainframe isn't really hard: I'm told by reliable sources it's "just JCL, like everything else".
But assigning an IP address to a machine that's had the same one since the mid-eighties? When it has machines talking to it that don't have the concept of "DNS resolution", running programs whose source code was lost a decade ago? And all those things are the revenue critical systems? That's hard.
Talking with colleagues that have done large IP range sales before, this is pretty much the dominant strategy – your agreement sells all your contiguous space, then you have an immediate lease back provision for carved out space that gives you ~decade(s) of lease time to unwind whatever business processes exist that require those legacy IPs remain around.
That's the long lived edge case – I didn't really go into detail, but what the heck.
AIUI, assigning a new IP address to a mainframe isn't really hard: I'm told by reliable sources it's "just JCL, like everything else".
But assigning an IP address to a machine that's had the same one since the mid-eighties? When it has machines talking to it that don't have the concept of "DNS resolution", running programs whose source code was lost a decade ago? And all those things are the revenue critical systems? That's hard.
Talking with colleagues that have done large IP range sales before, this is pretty much the dominant strategy – your agreement sells all your contiguous space, then you have an immediate lease back provision for carved out space that gives you ~decade(s) of lease time to unwind whatever business processes exist that require those legacy IPs remain around.
Yea, but what exactly was 3.15 used for? Is that public knowledge?
never mind... looks like its owned by Xerox: https://bgp.he.net/net/13.15.0.0/16
That's 13.15. 3.0.0.0/8 was General Electric, now it's AWS: https://bgp.he.net/ip/3.0.0.0#_whois
That subnet had a handful of mainframes that had the same IP address for decades. When we migrated a handful of systems off those mainframes and onto what were then called "minicomputers" (heh!) they ended up in the same subnet.
Those mainframes ran the ERP system for an entire business unit. Every accounting application lived in or talked to a database in that space. Manufacturing information systems that ran assembly lines called into it. The IVR systems talked to systems in that space. Hell, public facing systems called into it (behind a thick layer of indirection :))
Basically, the systems behind that IP space were responsible for ~5 billion in annual revenue, and it was significantly cheaper to lease back those IPs from AWS, do absolutely nothing with them (in AWS), and advertise routes internally for the systems that still remain on those old IPs.
That subnet had a handful of mainframes that had the same IP address for decades. When we migrated a handful of systems off those mainframes and onto what were then called "minicomputers" (heh!) they ended up in the same subnet.
Those mainframes ran the ERP system for an entire business unit. Every accounting application lived in or talked to a database in that space. Manufacturing information systems that ran assembly lines called into it. The IVR systems talked to systems in that space. Hell, public facing systems called into it (behind a thick layer of indirection :))
Basically, the systems behind that IP space were responsible for ~5 billion in annual revenue, and it was significantly cheaper to lease back those IPs from AWS, do absolutely nothing with them (in AWS), and advertise routes internally for the systems that still remain on those old IPs.
The big difference is that IPv4 isn't "expended" like freon. So you never go off the cliff in quite the same way. If one use case leaves IPv4 or we get one notch more serious on NAT, the pressure is relieved for a long time.
We've been "out" of addresses for 2-3 years, and while prices slowly rise, not a whole lot has changed. Of course, ARIN and RIPE had it better than most of the rest of the world.
We've been "out" of addresses for 2-3 years, and while prices slowly rise, not a whole lot has changed. Of course, ARIN and RIPE had it better than most of the rest of the world.
That said an IP range that ends up in block lists for years that can greatly reduce its utility.
What don't people use a $20 converter box from floppy/IDE/whatever to USB?
The Air Force actually does this with avionics.
A lot of the older planes require electronic components that speak a protocol that ran on hardware that is not directly replaceable. Instead, they run "emulator" boxes that are the same physical size as the old components and have the same physical ports but run Linux (or some other modern embedded system) inside.
A lot of the older planes require electronic components that speak a protocol that ran on hardware that is not directly replaceable. Instead, they run "emulator" boxes that are the same physical size as the old components and have the same physical ports but run Linux (or some other modern embedded system) inside.
The data in this post seems behind. https://auctions.ipv4.global/prior-sales shows that the prices have spiked to more than $50 per IP
Having bought (for my employer) and sold (from personal stock to someone other than my employer) this year, I can confirm sales for clean blocks exceed $50/IP. The OP website is out of date
The web page list $50, but with 0 bids.
Many many years ago I owned a /19. Crazy to think what that would be worth now, but also probably way better other investments during the same time period.
The numbers on that site are about $10 lower than I believe is the going rate: https://ipv4.global/blog/recent-ipv4-pricing-trends-may-2022...
IP4 is a limited resource, like property they don’t make it anymore.
What would happen if this became an asset bubble, a strange one since the idea is that it’s on its way out.
What would happen if this became an asset bubble, a strange one since the idea is that it’s on its way out.
There is a market for AS numbers too (filter by ASN)
https://auctions.ipv4.global/
https://auctions.ipv4.global/
RIRs hand out ASNs for free. Why would someone buy one at auction?
Getting a number you like (especially if it's 4-digit) vs random pick by the RIR.
According to their previous sales page, 5-digit ASN's have been selling fairly fast at ~$2,000 level even though as you point out you can get one for just the RIR registration fee (ARIN at least will give you a 6-digit by defualt but 5-digit if you ask when applying).
According to their previous sales page, 5-digit ASN's have been selling fairly fast at ~$2,000 level even though as you point out you can get one for just the RIR registration fee (ARIN at least will give you a 6-digit by defualt but 5-digit if you ask when applying).
Also it used to be the case that having a lower ASN was a decision factor in BGP routing. Having a lower ASN meant you would get more traffic, and therefore more revenue and more profit.
Here's to all happy campers:
I have the feeling I will run my website on IPv4 forever and never add an AAAA record.
I wouldn't be surprised if IPv4 stays around for another 1000 years.
Railroads have been around for over 2000 years and are still going strong. Despite cars and planes.
Postal service has been going on for 4000 years. Since the times of the pharaos! And It's still going strong too. Despite phone, email and whatsapp.
I still use VIM to edit my code, Django for the backend and no framework for the frontend.
HN and Wikipedia still use tables for their layout.
I have the feeling I will run my website on IPv4 forever and never add an AAAA record.
I wouldn't be surprised if IPv4 stays around for another 1000 years.
Railroads have been around for over 2000 years and are still going strong. Despite cars and planes.
Postal service has been going on for 4000 years. Since the times of the pharaos! And It's still going strong too. Despite phone, email and whatsapp.
I still use VIM to edit my code, Django for the backend and no framework for the frontend.
HN and Wikipedia still use tables for their layout.
Counterpoint: railways often get abandoned out of lack of use. Europe no longer has a reasonable network of night trains.
Horses used to be the main mode of transportation for centuries. Now they still exist, but as a tiny niche.
Sending letters by post was a mainstream thing. Now it's only travel cards for a minority who cares.
FreeDOS is still developed. So is BeOS/Haiku. But good luck finding anyone using that on a laptop in a cafe.
I wouldn't be surprised if a few enthusiasts still used IPv4 in legacy software in 1000 years. I would be very surprised if it remained mainstream.
Horses used to be the main mode of transportation for centuries. Now they still exist, but as a tiny niche.
Sending letters by post was a mainstream thing. Now it's only travel cards for a minority who cares.
FreeDOS is still developed. So is BeOS/Haiku. But good luck finding anyone using that on a laptop in a cafe.
I wouldn't be surprised if a few enthusiasts still used IPv4 in legacy software in 1000 years. I would be very surprised if it remained mainstream.
- We had an older unit using freon which was no longer allowed for new units but was grandfathered in for old units
- I asked the HVAC guy if that meant that the prices of old freon had skyrocketed
- He said: "Well, yes, in the short term. Over time, it became cheaper to just buy a new unit rather than buy the stockpiled freon so there was an upper limit on how much that old freon could go for"
I imagine the same will happen with IPv4. There will probably be some edge cases that last a LONG time but most won't.
My favorite example of things lasting a long time are 3.5" diskettes. Apparently they were used in CNC milling machines so they were around long after desktops stopped having disk drives.