Job hunting while day-jobbing (2021)(code.maiamccormick.com)
code.maiamccormick.com
Job hunting while day-jobbing (2021)
https://code.maiamccormick.com/2021/06/27/job-hunting.html
14 comments
Finding a job is not just interviewing. It's a massive time sink. Researching companies, filling out applications and web forms, "quick" phone chats with recruiters who refuse to just dump info over E-mail, re-studying fundamentals, grinding leetcode or other skills prep, doing company take-home tests and "challenges". And then for every 100 applications, you might get interviews at 10 companies, producing 1 offer. It's quite a bit of busy work, and if you have many work deliverables or are booked solid in meetings 8:30 to 6:00, you're not really going to have time to do it. I've always had to take blocks of time off (vacation or unpaid time off) in order to seriously get another job.
I've thought about piloting a temp personal assistant service for software engineers during their job search.
Imagine the following...
- Recruiter outreach is filtered / summarized.
- Recruiter phone screens are scheduled for you, batched together.
- Your assistant pre-screens for basic preferences: remote, salary, company size, role scope/level.
- Interview loops are scheduled for you.
- Receive a packet of spaced repetition exercises (optional), digest of Blind/Glassdoors messages, compensation data from the company/industry/area.
- Negotiation practice, coaching
In my experience, "forwarding this to my assistant for scheduling" is a power move.
Some of above is handled by agency-style recruiting (Cybercoders) but the quality of those leads is on the low end. The high-end recruiting agencies focus on the employer side of the equation. Feels like there's an interesting gap for a service focused on a highly-skilled candidate's side of the equation.
Imagine the following...
- Recruiter outreach is filtered / summarized.
- Recruiter phone screens are scheduled for you, batched together.
- Your assistant pre-screens for basic preferences: remote, salary, company size, role scope/level.
- Interview loops are scheduled for you.
- Receive a packet of spaced repetition exercises (optional), digest of Blind/Glassdoors messages, compensation data from the company/industry/area.
- Negotiation practice, coaching
In my experience, "forwarding this to my assistant for scheduling" is a power move.
Some of above is handled by agency-style recruiting (Cybercoders) but the quality of those leads is on the low end. The high-end recruiting agencies focus on the employer side of the equation. Feels like there's an interesting gap for a service focused on a highly-skilled candidate's side of the equation.
It's a good idea. In show business, this person is your agent. If you can afford someone to do this, it makes sense to offload this tedious work.
A key difference seems to be that in show business you get many more offers. In software you might only switch jobs every few years. So the benefit of saving X hours every time gets amortized to a very low amount.
No, in show business you get lots of offers at a higher level but at a lower level the agent is also in charge of going out and selling you, also at the higher levels if you hear of a role you want you tell your agent, Sy, get me that part.
I know of one guy who was a consultant who had a dedicated agent to handle this stuff for him. Which lots of consultants get their jobs through agencies who match consultants with companies anyway, so it just seemed like a natural jump up to this level for him.
I know of one guy who was a consultant who had a dedicated agent to handle this stuff for him. Which lots of consultants get their jobs through agencies who match consultants with companies anyway, so it just seemed like a natural jump up to this level for him.
On the one hand, this sounds like a fantastic idea.
On the other, I get sort of a bullshit-job vibe on this, in the sense that it would an entirely new type of professional invented just to paper over inefficiencies in an existing system.
Is there a way we could improve recruiting across the industry that would make this sort of specialised PA unnecessary?
(Asking not just hypothetically -- it could help me design sensible recruiting processes.)
On the other, I get sort of a bullshit-job vibe on this, in the sense that it would an entirely new type of professional invented just to paper over inefficiencies in an existing system.
Is there a way we could improve recruiting across the industry that would make this sort of specialised PA unnecessary?
(Asking not just hypothetically -- it could help me design sensible recruiting processes.)
If everyone did this, recruiters would get no advantage over sending an email with the same information, since they wouldn't be able to "persuade" an assistant of anything.
So using assistants would be one way to make using assistants unnecessary.
So using assistants would be one way to make using assistants unnecessary.
I don't get the reasoning, when a recruiter contacts me they tell me we think you would be fantastic for this job, and then they describe the job, sometimes no match, sometimes match. The assistant takes care of this step, should the recruiter that has a bad job be able to convince you to take the meetings even though you are a bad match?
The recruiter with good matches asks for meeting time, salary, you figure it out reply. In this scenario assistant does that. Do you think recruiter is supposed to talk people into meeting at inconvenient times, interviewing for jobs with salaries below what they require? I think none of these things make a difference to the recruiter whether you provide the information or the digital job filtering agent does it.
The recruiter with good matches asks for meeting time, salary, you figure it out reply. In this scenario assistant does that. Do you think recruiter is supposed to talk people into meeting at inconvenient times, interviewing for jobs with salaries below what they require? I think none of these things make a difference to the recruiter whether you provide the information or the digital job filtering agent does it.
It might surprise a lot of us here on HN but there are people who absolutely love this type of work. The trick is finding someone who also has the discipline to record notes and track all of the details.
While nice in some sense - I honestly find this part of the job search the least tedious, least stressful, and least time consuming. Yes, helpful to have done by someone else. Willing to pay a lot of money to have someone else do this? Probably not.
Leetcode and system design prep take up the overwhelming majority of job search time. (Hundreds of hours - months of nights and weekends) Then the interviews themselves come second. I did something close to 200 hours of interviewing for my last job search (including some dozen onsites which were all 5-6+ hours). This is hugely time consuming… spending a half time spamming some websites is hardly that difficult in comparison.
And yes, I had to finally take time off of work to accomplish this. I usually take PTO to do this or just quit my job outright or get severance to help as well. (All the above sometimes)
Leetcode and system design prep take up the overwhelming majority of job search time. (Hundreds of hours - months of nights and weekends) Then the interviews themselves come second. I did something close to 200 hours of interviewing for my last job search (including some dozen onsites which were all 5-6+ hours). This is hugely time consuming… spending a half time spamming some websites is hardly that difficult in comparison.
And yes, I had to finally take time off of work to accomplish this. I usually take PTO to do this or just quit my job outright or get severance to help as well. (All the above sometimes)
I'll second this and add that you're probably sending out fewer but more targeted applications as you progress further in your career.
Eh. Maybe but I still have to interview with dozens of companies because you need competing offers, warm ups to calibrate performance, and so forth.
I don’t expect any less than 10 onsites for any job search regardless of tenure.
I don’t expect any less than 10 onsites for any job search regardless of tenure.
I had good luck reaching directly out to a recruiter working at a VC firm last time I was looking. I'm not sure how this would work without a direct introduction, but presumably one could reach out on linkedin/email. This was great from the perspective of outreach/filtering.
I've worked on a lot of these processes. If you're interested in talking, my Twitter is linked in my HN profile.
Followed, just in case! I probably won't pursue this idea (too many other things going on), so anyone who wants to run with this should try it.
It's a great idea!
This has not been my experience at all. My three most recent job switches (over 5 years) have gone like this:
1. Ex-coworker or recruiter reaches out with an opportunity that sounds interesting.
2. I ask for comp range and make sure it's acceptable (50%+ increase).
3. I go through the interview loop and get an offer
In there have been maybe 3-4 short recruiter calls that went nowhere for fit or comp reasons. In my life, once I got to the tech screen stage I have gotten an offer 6 out of 9 times.
Is this other people's experience as well? Maybe I have just been extraordinarily lucky?
1. Ex-coworker or recruiter reaches out with an opportunity that sounds interesting.
2. I ask for comp range and make sure it's acceptable (50%+ increase).
3. I go through the interview loop and get an offer
In there have been maybe 3-4 short recruiter calls that went nowhere for fit or comp reasons. In my life, once I got to the tech screen stage I have gotten an offer 6 out of 9 times.
Is this other people's experience as well? Maybe I have just been extraordinarily lucky?
This is closer to my experience than your parent, fwiw. Though I have done job searches myself rather than going with inbound outreach from my network.
My recent job search was more like 8 -> 5 -> 3 rather than the 100 -> 10 -> 1 in the parent comment.
My recent job search was more like 8 -> 5 -> 3 rather than the 100 -> 10 -> 1 in the parent comment.
This is my experience also. The only time I had a 100 -> 10 -> 1 type experience was looking for my first job leaving the military. That mostly due to me over applying for jobs.
Same
Step 2 is the key.
Don't take a call just because the recruiter asks for one. They're just trying to extract as much attention from you as possible because they think extracting lots of attention from you is a positive signal and increases their chance of closing the deal.
Ask for comp upfront. Only go forward with those who disclose comp in your desired range. This will eliminate 99% of the wasted time in your job search, if you're not doing it today.
Don't take a call just because the recruiter asks for one. They're just trying to extract as much attention from you as possible because they think extracting lots of attention from you is a positive signal and increases their chance of closing the deal.
Ask for comp upfront. Only go forward with those who disclose comp in your desired range. This will eliminate 99% of the wasted time in your job search, if you're not doing it today.
Three times 50%? So 337.5%+ of your salary pre-first hop? I assure you, the far majority will not just get offers for that, if they can even find a job willing to make such a jump in comp. They'll be looking for those offers themselves. If only for the fact most devs are still in the first 5 years of their career.
Yes, closer to 4x (120k-480k). Admittedly I was originally underpaid even for my market area and the rise of remote work has allowed me to find jobs in higher-paying markets.
Anyway, my main point was that I have found inbound job requests from recruiters or referrals to have a very high success rate.
Anyway, my main point was that I have found inbound job requests from recruiters or referrals to have a very high success rate.
> "quick" phone chats with recruiters who refuse to just dump info over E-mail
This is definitely a pain, 100%. I've read as many as 90-95% of messages some engineers get from recruiters don't include comp at all within the outbound, it's a shame! On top of that, it's many times impossible to understand anything deep about the company, what projects they have going on, information about the team members you'd be working with etc. Recruiting, and job descriptions in general, can do so much more than they do today and actually be an asset to engineers instead of time drains.
This is definitely a pain, 100%. I've read as many as 90-95% of messages some engineers get from recruiters don't include comp at all within the outbound, it's a shame! On top of that, it's many times impossible to understand anything deep about the company, what projects they have going on, information about the team members you'd be working with etc. Recruiting, and job descriptions in general, can do so much more than they do today and actually be an asset to engineers instead of time drains.
I have never had an initial recruiter message contain comp info. Literally 0 out of hundreds. Maybe 10% are willing to provide hard numbers upon request, and about 50% have given me numbers after a 15 minute ~~phone call~~ sales pitch.
Ya the researching companies thing takes so long esp. if you're going for startups. These sites saved me a lot of time: https://topstartups.io/, https://breakoutlist.com/
Also helps to take a few days off here and there to get it all done, even if you're working remote
Also helps to take a few days off here and there to get it all done, even if you're working remote
Sometimes there's also a part before job hunting - preparing your portfolio. Nowadays you get a lot of "show us what you made on GitHub" - which sort of makes sense from employers standpoint because you get to see code quality and ability of someone to think independently. I'm changing the tech stack completely - different language, different type of development (at least from the day job perspective, I had some 2,000h of experience with it on a side project I can't publish yet in the recent 2 years) and I will definitely need to prepare something, otherwise I have almost no relevant experience to show. I suppose it's going to take at least 500h and that's being optimistic. Time is slightly on my side though, as the day job is freelancing, I think I can cap it at 30h/week average and have remaining 30h/week for the portfolio project - which hopefully means I will be ready 5 months from now, but I would not be surprised if it blows up further.
The recruiter calls are the worst waste of time! On top of that, if a recruiting agency sets you up, you're looking at an additional call with each company recruiter and/or hiring manager, before even starting to interview.
On top of that, each individual call/interview takes up some adjacent time to schedule + prep and occupies your headspace until it happens.
On top of that, each individual call/interview takes up some adjacent time to schedule + prep and occupies your headspace until it happens.
I guess I am kind of privileged, but with experience at a "brand name" employer I get interviews at 100% of places I apply to, and offers probably 75% of the time overall. Most of them I have declined though because I've found it hard to increase comp (or there were other red flags).
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If you have some recruiters that you've worked with in the past and cultivated a good relationship with them, then it makes entire experience a lot more streamlined. My last three jobs in the industry all I've done is literally flip a switch on my LinkedIn to "looking for work" and then notified my recruiters. They lined up some interviews - I picked the ones that I liked, finished the interviews and had offers from several companies within a few weeks. No grinding at all.
>producing 1 offer
And then the resulting offer isn't even on par with your current comp.
It's almost as if the entire thing is designed maliciously on purpose.
And then the resulting offer isn't even on par with your current comp.
It's almost as if the entire thing is designed maliciously on purpose.
Depending on diff between your current pay and potential pay, one might be better off quitting and searching for the new job to create best possible outcome.
As I read your comment, I wonder how much the job market parallels the dating market, especially as I read:
> if a recruiter contacted me I would have to weigh all the benefits of the role against the hassle of interviewing, including figuring out how to leave the office discreetly and potentially block off consecutive days.
I wonder if remote working and remote (long-distance) relationships are facing similar challenges—maybe more "serial monogamy" (lower retention), "cheating" (secretly working for a second company or consulting), "polygamy" (openly work for multiple companies at the same time), "open relationships" (allowed to take consulting gigs and side projects on top of one's job), or just "dating" (freelancing instead of being exclusive with one company).
I really wonder how much the technology environment enables or pushes us towards these types of relationships, professional and romantic.
> if a recruiter contacted me I would have to weigh all the benefits of the role against the hassle of interviewing, including figuring out how to leave the office discreetly and potentially block off consecutive days.
I wonder if remote working and remote (long-distance) relationships are facing similar challenges—maybe more "serial monogamy" (lower retention), "cheating" (secretly working for a second company or consulting), "polygamy" (openly work for multiple companies at the same time), "open relationships" (allowed to take consulting gigs and side projects on top of one's job), or just "dating" (freelancing instead of being exclusive with one company).
I really wonder how much the technology environment enables or pushes us towards these types of relationships, professional and romantic.
Interviewing has become so much better. Final rounds used to involve travel so you almost always had to take time off to do it. Today, final rounds are done remotely, and you can split them between days reducing the stress involved for the candidate. No longer do we have to do the stupidest, most idiotic idea invented by anyone ever: Whiteboard programming. Instead, we can use excellent tools like Coderpad which are so much more easier to work with.
When I was an intern at my first company, my term was nearing it's end and I wanted to get another role elsewhere.
I booked a small meeting room during work hours for an interview, but as I was about to enter I noticed my boss was already in there. I guess he didn't check the schedule.
Panicking, I had 2 minutes until the interview and nowhere to take it. I ended up going into the office gym and doing it on a bench while someone was running on a treadmill in the background.
Funny times, I ended up getting the offer too.
I booked a small meeting room during work hours for an interview, but as I was about to enter I noticed my boss was already in there. I guess he didn't check the schedule.
Panicking, I had 2 minutes until the interview and nowhere to take it. I ended up going into the office gym and doing it on a bench while someone was running on a treadmill in the background.
Funny times, I ended up getting the offer too.
As a student there was this programme for summer internships where you'd do 10 min interviews with a bunch of companies. Sounds crazy but honestly good practice.
I fucked one up by being 5 mins late - aka 50% gone. Lesson learnt haha. No I didn't get to the next step with them.
I fucked one up by being 5 mins late - aka 50% gone. Lesson learnt haha. No I didn't get to the next step with them.
When I was a college student I did a few internship phone interviews on a random bench on campus (between classes). However it didn't go that well, lol
Wow, sounds rough!
"I'm really passionate about working for you... and physical fitness" AirPod hits you in the face mid-stride
Hope it wasn't a video interview
You’re crazy. Do not tell a trusted coworker about your intentions. It’s a risk. Shut up and interview. What’s the benefit of telling anyone at your current gig?
I’ve both told bosses and been the boss who has been told by my direct report that they’re interviewing. Not all of those cases ended up in someone changing jobs, but some did. I’ve given relevant advice to my directs who were considering changing roles.
Sometimes someone up and quits without saying anything (and that’s their right), but I think it’s more productive if we can have a real conversation about the situation and maybe we can change something or maybe we can’t.
The very worst that I’ve done knowing someone was looking was not putting them onto a long project that would require substantial personal commitment to accomplish if I knew they were looking. Otherwise, no impact (and even there it made their departure easier on both sides).
Sometimes someone up and quits without saying anything (and that’s their right), but I think it’s more productive if we can have a real conversation about the situation and maybe we can change something or maybe we can’t.
The very worst that I’ve done knowing someone was looking was not putting them onto a long project that would require substantial personal commitment to accomplish if I knew they were looking. Otherwise, no impact (and even there it made their departure easier on both sides).
This is why I told my manager I was going to leave the team; it was time to kick off the vision for and start executing on a new project, and telling my manager I wasn't the right person to own that seemed like the right call. It worked out well, but I was very privileged to have a really good manager.
The problem I have with disclosing this information is that the benefit is all one-sided and the risk is all on the employee.
I think at most I would be extremely vague about declining a project like that.
I think at most I would be extremely vague about declining a project like that.
It benefited me in the short term by allowing me to conduct my job search without having to continually make excuses for things I was doing, and by giving me time to work on leaving my team in good hands it had the long term benefit of leaving me on good terms with my team and manager who may work with me again in the future.
But I see this as very context specific. I was confident that this would work out well in this case, but can easily imagine situations where it would not. I don't mean this as universal advice at all.
But I see this as very context specific. I was confident that this would work out well in this case, but can easily imagine situations where it would not. I don't mean this as universal advice at all.
> Sometimes someone up and quits without saying anything (and that’s their right), but I think it’s more productive if we can have a real conversation about the situation and maybe we can change something or maybe we can’t.
Those conversations should have started way before the person even started looking.
Those conversations should have started way before the person even started looking.
I mean, I agree, but to be fair I had a positive experience once by letting my employer know when I had already started interviewing elsewhere (really just giving them a heads up that I was planning on leaving within the next 6 months) and to my surprise they were more than happy to match the salary and make changes (for example going fully remote) to accomodate me. I'm still there nearly 3 years later.
Really depends on the employer and on how much they want to keep you and how willing you are to stay there.
Really depends on the employer and on how much they want to keep you and how willing you are to stay there.
Yes. Exactly.
How does telling your boss you are interviewing help? What does each party gain? The “very worst you’ve done” is not put someone on a long term project. That is detrimental to your direct report’s career if they decide to stay. No one wins.
Obviously this varies, but if you have a good relationship with your manager, this can be a huge benefit down the line. That person can be part of your professional network, and may possibly reach out to you several years down the line with a new position at the new company they work for. Leaving right after a large project has been assigned to you does have a negative impact on your manager and current team, so it may be beneficial to let them know early.
People change positions fast in this industry, so keeping on good terms with coworkers you respect can be good later when they have moved on and are looking to hire.
People change positions fast in this industry, so keeping on good terms with coworkers you respect can be good later when they have moved on and are looking to hire.
As someone who's had a direct discuss this with me, it put a fire under my ass to apply pressure at higher levels to address to reasons they're looking elsewhere. Pay, responsibility, lack of opportunity for upward mobility. I was able to provide assurances that a raise/promotion was likely during the next evaluation and even openly discussed my professional rating of them (including stratification) when I submitted for end of fiscal year.
The problem I have with this is that all the upsides of having that conversation go to the employer.
I’ve been through too many layoffs as participant and spectator to have any concern for the difficulty of transitions. Here we are encouraging employees to plan out their departure months in advance, but my employer has no problem sending out “if you got this email you aren’t fired” bulk emails. My two week notice is generous in comparison, and I can guarantee that the transition sure won’t be difficult on my end.
And while our EMs are surely nice people, they have no power to enact real change in the majority of organizations. They have no say over budget, headcount, and often their cries about misguided priorities are ignored.
In other words, if your VP and Director are the wrong people there’s no amount of planing or negotiating that’s going to save the situation. On to the next one.
I’ve been through too many layoffs as participant and spectator to have any concern for the difficulty of transitions. Here we are encouraging employees to plan out their departure months in advance, but my employer has no problem sending out “if you got this email you aren’t fired” bulk emails. My two week notice is generous in comparison, and I can guarantee that the transition sure won’t be difficult on my end.
And while our EMs are surely nice people, they have no power to enact real change in the majority of organizations. They have no say over budget, headcount, and often their cries about misguided priorities are ignored.
In other words, if your VP and Director are the wrong people there’s no amount of planing or negotiating that’s going to save the situation. On to the next one.
You might want to help your friends start moving politically, eg you might have a crown prince that you want to line up for your job. Or you might know that your team is going to be taken over by some tyrant, in which case they need some time to jump ship. Or you might want to take people with you wherever you're going, and they should start talking to their families about whether they want to go on that adventure with you.
Also keep in mind people are unlikely to just blurt out that you are out interviewing, especially if they are a trusted person. They might want to tell management that there's a number of people looking to leave and they should do something about it if they want to keep people.
Of course try to weigh the pros and the cons. But don't keep it private unconditionally.
Also keep in mind people are unlikely to just blurt out that you are out interviewing, especially if they are a trusted person. They might want to tell management that there's a number of people looking to leave and they should do something about it if they want to keep people.
Of course try to weigh the pros and the cons. But don't keep it private unconditionally.
> You’re crazy. Do not tell a trusted coworker about your intentions. It’s a risk. Shut up and interview. What’s the benefit of telling anyone at your current gig?
Coworkers? Maybe not. But my manager? Certainly.
Makes his life easier, allows him to plan accordingly and (in at least one case) throw some juicy new project at me that makes me rethink a 20% raise.
Also, there's no need to burn bridges on your way out[1].
[1] My last place, my manager knew about my first interview at a FAANG, he knew about my second interview, and then he knew about the offer they sent.
All-in-all, he knew for about 2 months that there was a possibility of me leaving. We're still good terms right now.
Coworkers? Maybe not. But my manager? Certainly.
Makes his life easier, allows him to plan accordingly and (in at least one case) throw some juicy new project at me that makes me rethink a 20% raise.
Also, there's no need to burn bridges on your way out[1].
[1] My last place, my manager knew about my first interview at a FAANG, he knew about my second interview, and then he knew about the offer they sent.
All-in-all, he knew for about 2 months that there was a possibility of me leaving. We're still good terms right now.
I’m sorry this is just a horrible piece of advice. This only works out for people who have utopian management.
You never know what kind of obligations your manager has to deal with that situation. They might be required to send that info up the chain.
I’m also strongly against the slightest implication that the standard two week notice is burning a bridge. It absolutely isn’t. All it takes is one layoff life experience to see why two weeks notice is more than enough courtesy.
You never know what kind of obligations your manager has to deal with that situation. They might be required to send that info up the chain.
I’m also strongly against the slightest implication that the standard two week notice is burning a bridge. It absolutely isn’t. All it takes is one layoff life experience to see why two weeks notice is more than enough courtesy.
> I’m sorry this is just a horrible piece of advice. This only works out for people who have utopian management.
>
> You never know what kind of obligations your manager has to deal with that situation. They might be required to send that info up the chain.
What you're saying is that it might have a negative result. You're ignoring that it might also have a positive result.
It's a trade-off, with the risk that your manager will take an opportunity to sacrifice you to the organisational gods for his own benefit.
You gotta ask yourself, if your manager is willing to throw you to the wolves, why are you still working there? After all, if they are willing to hurt you for simply job-hunting, there's a lot more they would have done to you over the period of your employment.
OTOH, if they've never done you in before, why are you so sure they'll start now? If they have broke your trust before, then sure, you have evidence to support a secretive approach. But if they have never done it before, then all your evidence points to them not doing it now.
To get to be a manager, they must have demonstrated more networking skills than average. I doubt that they are going to pollute their network just for kicks; all the ones I've worked with mostly attempt to expand their network of contacts, not shrink them!
> You never know what kind of obligations your manager has to deal with that situation.
True, I don't. But my managers in the past, when told that I am looking, never sent the info up the chain, even when I knew that they were obligated to.
I've been working now for 24 years; only once in my career did it come as something of a shock to my manager that I had found a new job.
>
> You never know what kind of obligations your manager has to deal with that situation. They might be required to send that info up the chain.
What you're saying is that it might have a negative result. You're ignoring that it might also have a positive result.
It's a trade-off, with the risk that your manager will take an opportunity to sacrifice you to the organisational gods for his own benefit.
You gotta ask yourself, if your manager is willing to throw you to the wolves, why are you still working there? After all, if they are willing to hurt you for simply job-hunting, there's a lot more they would have done to you over the period of your employment.
OTOH, if they've never done you in before, why are you so sure they'll start now? If they have broke your trust before, then sure, you have evidence to support a secretive approach. But if they have never done it before, then all your evidence points to them not doing it now.
To get to be a manager, they must have demonstrated more networking skills than average. I doubt that they are going to pollute their network just for kicks; all the ones I've worked with mostly attempt to expand their network of contacts, not shrink them!
> You never know what kind of obligations your manager has to deal with that situation.
True, I don't. But my managers in the past, when told that I am looking, never sent the info up the chain, even when I knew that they were obligated to.
I've been working now for 24 years; only once in my career did it come as something of a shock to my manager that I had found a new job.
As you pointed out, I am saying there might be at least a remote chance of a negative result.
More importantly, I can’t really put my finger on any kind of potential positive result for the employee.
In my mind if you “do the math” on that situation, there’s no reason to ever reveal your intentions except in extraordinary scenarios. There’s only downside and slim to no upside.
I think what you describe is kind of like betting on red and black at the roulette table. Sure, you’ll get your money back most of the time, but if you ever hit 0 or 00 you’ve gone bust, and you can never do anything besides get your money back. There’s essentially no reason to bet at all.
Also, keep in mind that so many people work for actively terrible management and can’t just instantly rectify that. Not all management comes into power off of merit like you suggest, many are members of the family business or friends of the director/VP. In that scenario, to answer your “why are you still working there?” question, the answer is “to put food on the table.”
More importantly, I can’t really put my finger on any kind of potential positive result for the employee.
In my mind if you “do the math” on that situation, there’s no reason to ever reveal your intentions except in extraordinary scenarios. There’s only downside and slim to no upside.
I think what you describe is kind of like betting on red and black at the roulette table. Sure, you’ll get your money back most of the time, but if you ever hit 0 or 00 you’ve gone bust, and you can never do anything besides get your money back. There’s essentially no reason to bet at all.
Also, keep in mind that so many people work for actively terrible management and can’t just instantly rectify that. Not all management comes into power off of merit like you suggest, many are members of the family business or friends of the director/VP. In that scenario, to answer your “why are you still working there?” question, the answer is “to put food on the table.”
If the coworker is your friend, why not? It has helped me finding assurance and the coworkers even helped me finding a new job.
Because they could unintentionally leak that info to the wrong people? I dunno I’m not that trusting.
I agree with this and it's what I did when I changed my employers.
If they're your friends, you celebrate getting the job with them. Don't tell them the plans beforehand because that is just opening yourself up for problems. And you do end up looking a bit worse if you keep trying to find new places but not getting anywhere.
(Not to say to distrust your friends; it's just that people chat naturally. secrets never remain secret for long.)
I actually found my new job on stack overflow while i was searching for something while at work. I applied, had a month long interview, and I only told my friends when I was up to the final stages of the interview. but we were a cynical bunch and we were all lamenting to leave, so they enjoyed the idea of the place falling apart after I left.
I also told them a few of my failures earlier in the year, so they knew what i was up to, but they often didn't have specifics that someone else in the company could try and pin me by.
If they're your friends, you celebrate getting the job with them. Don't tell them the plans beforehand because that is just opening yourself up for problems. And you do end up looking a bit worse if you keep trying to find new places but not getting anywhere.
(Not to say to distrust your friends; it's just that people chat naturally. secrets never remain secret for long.)
I actually found my new job on stack overflow while i was searching for something while at work. I applied, had a month long interview, and I only told my friends when I was up to the final stages of the interview. but we were a cynical bunch and we were all lamenting to leave, so they enjoyed the idea of the place falling apart after I left.
I also told them a few of my failures earlier in the year, so they knew what i was up to, but they often didn't have specifics that someone else in the company could try and pin me by.
Nothing to leak. You're totally allowed to interview while employed.
It's not like you're cheating on a partner. You are expected to maximize revenue.
It's not like you're cheating on a partner. You are expected to maximize revenue.
It sounds like you've enjoyed a career working for and with some really amazing people.
Yes the ideal state is having employers who can take attrition on the chin and root for their people on the way out the door, and yes those kinds of employers exist.
The opposite is also real, and acknowledging the former doesn't preclude the latter: I and judging from comments, others have also been in the kinds of shops that will cut someone loose for interviewing even for a second job when the first isn't providing the hours or income they need, and I and I presume others have also given whatever amount of quit-notice and then immediately been walked out the door even after expressing a willingness to stay aboard, finish up $project and help the team transition well once we leave+.
So I can respect the ideal state while acknowledging some people have completely rational trepidation about who they share this kind of status information with.
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[+]even though I personally think quit-notice more often than not, but certainly not always-often is a disservice to the person quitting
Yes the ideal state is having employers who can take attrition on the chin and root for their people on the way out the door, and yes those kinds of employers exist.
The opposite is also real, and acknowledging the former doesn't preclude the latter: I and judging from comments, others have also been in the kinds of shops that will cut someone loose for interviewing even for a second job when the first isn't providing the hours or income they need, and I and I presume others have also given whatever amount of quit-notice and then immediately been walked out the door even after expressing a willingness to stay aboard, finish up $project and help the team transition well once we leave+.
So I can respect the ideal state while acknowledging some people have completely rational trepidation about who they share this kind of status information with.
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[+]even though I personally think quit-notice more often than not, but certainly not always-often is a disservice to the person quitting
Maybe my vision on the subject is somehow coloured by the social safety net and labour legislation in the country i live in ...
I quit: 5 weeks notice.
My "shop cuts me loose" : 10 weeks notice. As a bonus, when they are really upset about my interviewing activities, i get off the hook immediately and get paid for 10 weeks without working for it. What is the risk? Some coworkers hinting to the employer about my leaving?
This position makes no sense unless one or more of the following are true:
1. You lucked your way into a role that you're completely unqualified for
2. Your employer will use this information to expedite the process of termination (that began prior)
Unless you're in big tech, your employer will beg you to stay if you mention interviewing elsewhere. And if do have a name brand on your resume it will magically float to the top of the list.
1. You lucked your way into a role that you're completely unqualified for
2. Your employer will use this information to expedite the process of termination (that began prior)
Unless you're in big tech, your employer will beg you to stay if you mention interviewing elsewhere. And if do have a name brand on your resume it will magically float to the top of the list.
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Ok so they beg you to stay. People are people. They know you’re unhappy and want to leave. Let’s say they try to make it better but you leave anyway. No one wins in this scenario.
What about the scenario where things get better and you stay? That's a win for everyone.
Well then good on them for pulling it off?
Agreed! Not at the same company!
If you really have noone outside of work to talk to && need to then get a therapist, or a dog, or COD warzone buddies
If you really have noone outside of work to talk to && need to then get a therapist, or a dog, or COD warzone buddies
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It's not a secret that you are engaging in employment to maximize revenue. Don't sneak around.
Everyone who is in business should be interviewing (on some side of the table) all of the time.
Everyone who is in business should be interviewing (on some side of the table) all of the time.
I keep seeing this bit of advice being thrown out, but I feel like it just reflect poorly on you if you leave for a new job 6 months after starting the last one. Personally I have always waited a year before starting interviewing for a new place.
I don't think the current market demand allows employers to be too critical of short tenure length. You can always bring out a variation of "I felt like I was underpaid for the previous position" which is probably true if you're already interviewing that quickly after starting.
It's a matter of personal preference. With inflation what it is and salaries what they are, it is a matter of a lot of money right now.
Unless your contract specifies duration, you are entirely within bounds to interview at any time, even after your first week at a new job. Anyone who finds fault with it is viewing you as property, not a vendor.
Unless your contract specifies duration, you are entirely within bounds to interview at any time, even after your first week at a new job. Anyone who finds fault with it is viewing you as property, not a vendor.
I can’t say enough how strongly I disagree with this idea.
This is our one life we have, and we’re supposed to just throw away our time on this earth for companies that are a bad fit, at least a year.
And yet my former employer had no problem laying me off with zero notice.
I’m going to preach against overlooking short tenure candidates as strongly as I can wherever I go. Quality, well-managed companies with top benefits packages don’t have issues with employee turnover.
Only the mismanaged dumpster fires have those issues. In my experience they’re the ones who make the biggest stink about resume tenure during the interview process since their daily reality revolves around that cycle of employees joining, finding out the place is shit, and leaving.
This is our one life we have, and we’re supposed to just throw away our time on this earth for companies that are a bad fit, at least a year.
And yet my former employer had no problem laying me off with zero notice.
I’m going to preach against overlooking short tenure candidates as strongly as I can wherever I go. Quality, well-managed companies with top benefits packages don’t have issues with employee turnover.
Only the mismanaged dumpster fires have those issues. In my experience they’re the ones who make the biggest stink about resume tenure during the interview process since their daily reality revolves around that cycle of employees joining, finding out the place is shit, and leaving.
I totally get the whole "you owe the company nothing" mentality but in my situation, I feel I get paid an extremely high amount for the job I do which is relatively easy web development without much stress. Yet the market is moving so fast that since I started 6 months ago, I probably could squeeze an extra $10k-$40k out of a new position if I moved.
It just doesn't quite sit right with me because the company has really been quite good and I like the people I work with. The extra money also wouldn't really enrich my life all that much. But I feel like I'm doing something wrong by not interviewing every week and trying to squeeze the last drop of wealth out.
It just doesn't quite sit right with me because the company has really been quite good and I like the people I work with. The extra money also wouldn't really enrich my life all that much. But I feel like I'm doing something wrong by not interviewing every week and trying to squeeze the last drop of wealth out.
Who is going to judge you? The current employer that you are leaving anyway? The new employer that is hiring you anyway?
Sure, you don't want to chain together a whole bunch of those. But I see so many resumes that are a string of 1 year + 1 month, and I know they only stayed because of cliff vesting. It's not 1993 anymore.
Sure, you don't want to chain together a whole bunch of those. But I see so many resumes that are a string of 1 year + 1 month, and I know they only stayed because of cliff vesting. It's not 1993 anymore.
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> Take the time to outline answers to the common behavioral questions (“tell me about a conflict you had with a coworker” etc.) and practice talking through them, so you have examples at your fingertips.
This is good advice, but do not try to predict the question in advance, just tell a story you were going to tell anyway. Meaning, you should have 3-5 stories about accomplishments you made or problems you solved, stories you can reel off easily in 1-2min without uhh-ing to remember details, and when they ask a "Tell me about a time when..." question, just pick whichever one comes closest and tell it.
This is good advice, but do not try to predict the question in advance, just tell a story you were going to tell anyway. Meaning, you should have 3-5 stories about accomplishments you made or problems you solved, stories you can reel off easily in 1-2min without uhh-ing to remember details, and when they ask a "Tell me about a time when..." question, just pick whichever one comes closest and tell it.
An hour a week!? The interviews I do are a gauntlet of everything under the sun across the entire spectrum of CS. You are basically cramming for your exit exams all over again AND you have to get soft skills in AND explain your job experience. It's frankly overkill for the majority of jobs
Is this such a difficult skill that needs a dedicated in-depth post? I though this was the norm. I have always interviewed while having a job. In fact I would find it weird and risky to leave your job to focus exclusively on interviewing. Heck, often I have interviewed around with no intention of leaving my job, just to check the market and see if I still have an edge.
Yeah I'm currently job hunting while full-time working and found the implication that this is a difficult and unique scenario to be alarming. I can't quit just to job search because then I'd use up lord knows how much of my emergency savings. Can't collect unemployment if you quit (in my state at least).
I've looped my previous two bosses in on my job hunts. They were natural extensions of my career and personal development. For various reasons (geography, room for promotion, comp) there wasn't room to grow.
I recommend seriously considering telling your boss you are looking. Don't do it if you are at all hesitant, but ideally it fits in with career conversations you're already having.
And it definitely saved me a lot of embarrassment when an interviewer leaked that I was looking to my coworker, who immediately told my boss. That's not supposed to happen, but tech is small and people know each other.
I recommend seriously considering telling your boss you are looking. Don't do it if you are at all hesitant, but ideally it fits in with career conversations you're already having.
And it definitely saved me a lot of embarrassment when an interviewer leaked that I was looking to my coworker, who immediately told my boss. That's not supposed to happen, but tech is small and people know each other.
> I recommend seriously considering telling your boss you are looking
I seriously recommend _against_ this. Except in very particular and situational cases. If you decide to do anyway, be prepared to ramp up your job search, you might need it sooner than you anticipated.
No, you won't immediately get fired because you are looking. Probably.
However, this sets a flag in your manager's head. You are a 'flight risk', so they need to start preparing for your departure, even if it doesn't happen. This has the potential to start all sorts of gears in the larger machinery.
There aren't many upsides of disclosing early in the process, and many potential downsides.
I seriously recommend _against_ this. Except in very particular and situational cases. If you decide to do anyway, be prepared to ramp up your job search, you might need it sooner than you anticipated.
No, you won't immediately get fired because you are looking. Probably.
However, this sets a flag in your manager's head. You are a 'flight risk', so they need to start preparing for your departure, even if it doesn't happen. This has the potential to start all sorts of gears in the larger machinery.
There aren't many upsides of disclosing early in the process, and many potential downsides.
Yes, definitely don't do it if you are just dabbling and aren't sure if you're leaving. I told one of them I was giving my 6 month notice, +/- 3 months.
Even that is a big NO in most cases. Giving a 6 months heads up is a quick way to get a smaller bonus, shit work, shit attitude, maybe even let go early.
Here in Germany many work contracts can be up to one year notice depending on the seniority and business domain, so unless you are so lucky to find a job willing to wait for you that long, many have to give notice without really having an offer and hope for the best.
However the usual notice period is around 4 weeks before each quartal end, miss that, and have to be around yet another quartal, unless HR and the boss agree with letting you going earlier.
However the usual notice period is around 4 weeks before each quartal end, miss that, and have to be around yet another quartal, unless HR and the boss agree with letting you going earlier.
That sounds terrible but aren’t workers generally treated well in Germany? I’ve seen that workers for factories usually have a legally required seat on the board of directors.
But either way, the good thing about “at will” work in the US is giving two weeks is often a courtesy. If I didn’t have respect for my colleague and boss I’d consider giving them even less notice.
But either way, the good thing about “at will” work in the US is giving two weeks is often a courtesy. If I didn’t have respect for my colleague and boss I’d consider giving them even less notice.
Yes, but it also goes both ways, the company is entitled to have enough time to search for a replacement.
I couldn’t do it. I tried but it was too difficult for me to find a balance.
I had to use my paternity leave to find a new job. if that didn’t work out I was going to quit after leave and continue looking full time. I made a lot of sacrifices and thankfully it was worth it in the end. But I realize so many folks can’t make such sacrifices.
I had to use my paternity leave to find a new job. if that didn’t work out I was going to quit after leave and continue looking full time. I made a lot of sacrifices and thankfully it was worth it in the end. But I realize so many folks can’t make such sacrifices.
Did uh, no one get suspicious when you didn't show any baby pictures?
It was harder to interview while employed than while on paternity leave?
I would like to assume having a kid wasn't just a ploy to get paternity leave..
Do many companies ask for birth certificates?
No, it's definitely a ploy to get some time to interview around.
It's a brilliant strategy with some long term side effects.
One possibility could be that their partner picked up some of the parent work so they could interview.
Honestly, this is just a great interview prep post in general, day-job or no.
Yeah, I mean the part of doing this while having a job shouldn’t be rocket science: “I have an appointment” is usually a good enough reason to take some time at the beginning or end of day.
Ehh.. the social norms around this are pretty ingrained. People do feel weird just saying “I have an appointment” for a job interview — even though, like you’re saying, they shouldn’t.
So I think writing like this, which explicitly spells out the ways in which this person “violated” these silly social norms, is good. It can kind of give people permission to do something they already know they should be allowed to do.
So I think writing like this, which explicitly spells out the ways in which this person “violated” these silly social norms, is good. It can kind of give people permission to do something they already know they should be allowed to do.
"Job hunting while day jobbing" is that a thing? For people who have a day job and want to switch, I only see one real alternative: "job hunting after having quit their job". The alternative sounds more stressful to me. How is it any different from doing any personal project, e.g.improving one's house while having a day job?
That said, the article has some good points, like: don't panic, your boss will not notice it so easily, and if so, it is not such a big deal -- you want to leave anyways.
Not everyone has enough savings to live off comfortably while they look for a new job. And even if they did, why would they burn through all of that just to be a bit less stressed while looking for a job? I mean the reduced stress from having a completely free schedule would immediately be cancelled out for me by the stress of being unemployed.
As difficult as it is to juggle a day job and interviews, that's how most employed people switch jobs. And it's particularly stressful in software, as that project is more intensive than just interviews, but also involves technical interview prep.
Certainly, it's a shame that there's no short-term unemployment benefits for those who want to leave a job and commit full-time to finding a new one for a few months, while recovering from burnout or just resting.
Certainly, it's a shame that there's no short-term unemployment benefits for those who want to leave a job and commit full-time to finding a new one for a few months, while recovering from burnout or just resting.
In Belgium, during the notice period, it is allowed to take one day per week off for searching for a new job, while being paid that day by your company. Even when the employee gave their notice! What i mostly do is start the notice period only just after signing the new contract. You're not obliged to tell your old boss you already signed, so you can still take those days off.
For those earlier in their career/without a lot of confidence built up, leaving your job without something lined up can be scary, and it is now the easiest it has ever been to interview on the job so why not keep the paychecks coming in?
Exactly my point. Even with built-up confidence, leaving without a contract in hand feels too scary.
Some folks are doing multiple tech jobs at once and still staying on top of things because some of these positions are really easy.
Just because it wasn’t mentioned in the OP’s “Take a break” part, if you’re in the US and plan to take time off, definitely consider giving notice at a time that will carry your employment into the start of the following month. You’ll usually be able to keep your insurance for the entirety of the month instead of having to potentially go uninsured or pay full price on COBRA.
Note that COBRA can be retroactive. If you're taking time off you don't have to start paying COBRA until you have a medical expense. If you avoid injury during your gap you don't have to pay.
Also, drain your FSA before you leave. You don't have to pay it back.
I wish interviewing wasn’t so involved and instead folks could enter trial periods with employers after some basic behavioral interviews.
Most jobs have probation periods on top of the interviewing, during which time it's way easier to fire an employee for any reason. This might work differently in the US where I guess you can always fire for any reason at any time regardless of probation.
Yes, but in practice, unless business conditions really change or there's a major disconnect between you and the company of some sort, it's a safe assumption that a professional job will mostly set you up for a year or two. An explicit we'll see how things go for the next couple of months before we extend a real offer would set off a lot of alarm bells.
yea this is not a thing at all in USA prbly because jobs are at-will anyways.
Most companies in the US have a probationary period of 90 days. It's easier internally to fire, but yeah, in 49 states, you can be fired for no reason.
That kind of exists in the form of 3 month contract to hire.
I wonder if you could use this strategy to "sell yourself" to the new company. Switch around the wording so it seems like YOU are trying out the employer for 3 months, when in reality, you meant to stay all along.
This is less preferable to me. I'd rather not leave my current job until its almost certain that I will do well at the new one.
~5 hours of interviews and a guaranteed yes/no decision is a lot better than trial periods or probation.
Do people have hard time blocking out their calendar for interviews? For initial recruiter call (15 mins) or tech phone screen (1 hr), I just block that hour on my calendar. For on-site (virtual now), I just take a PTO. Last time around, I used about 7 PTO days for interviews (yes, 7 companies). I got an offer that I was happy with.
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I have a suspicion this is another factor contributing to lower retention rates across the industry. Before the pandemic, if a recruiter contacted me I would have to weigh all the benefits of the role against the hassle of interviewing, including figuring out how to leave the office discreetly and potentially block off consecutive days. Now, it’s trivial for anyone to schedule interviews during hours without meetings.
Effectively, the bar for accepting an interview loop from a candidate’s point-of-view is lower when they are fully remote.
On the flip side, if you’re fully remote and find it difficult to job hunt while working, then that’s a good reason to leave! Your role likely isn’t giving you enough autonomy.