$25 PC priced like a textbook, works with old analog TVs(geek.com)
geek.com
$25 PC priced like a textbook, works with old analog TVs
http://www.geek.com/articles/chips/why-a-25-pc-because-its-the-price-of-a-textbook-2011091/
9 comments
Not just an employee, but an associate technical director at Broadcom. Others have found that the Raspberry Pi blog posts and etc are coming from Broadcom addresses. They're doing this on company time.
Earlier I thought this was a good marketing thing. Other companies like TI are doing this to get chips in the hands of hackers and spread some goodwill towards future commercial users of their chips.
But, as others have noted, Broadcom is a lot more standoffish with individuals that want access to sample parts and datasheets. So what is Broadcom gaining here? Inroads into educational markets? Access to open-source code written by tinkerers that they can incorporate into future EVKs and chipsets?
Maybe this odd part # is just a series of chips that have failed speedbinning and are being sold off cheaply?
Earlier I thought this was a good marketing thing. Other companies like TI are doing this to get chips in the hands of hackers and spread some goodwill towards future commercial users of their chips.
But, as others have noted, Broadcom is a lot more standoffish with individuals that want access to sample parts and datasheets. So what is Broadcom gaining here? Inroads into educational markets? Access to open-source code written by tinkerers that they can incorporate into future EVKs and chipsets?
Maybe this odd part # is just a series of chips that have failed speedbinning and are being sold off cheaply?
Would you believe me if I told you we're just nice guys, who used to be kids who couldn't afford computers?
Hi Eben.
Sorry, I don't mean to detract from what you're doing. I think it's great. I'm very very excited for the Raspberry Pi, both personally and to see what it does globally.
I'm mostly just curious why the chip isn't publicly available. That's all. I personally hope to be able to use this chip in other designs.
Sorry, I don't mean to detract from what you're doing. I think it's great. I'm very very excited for the Raspberry Pi, both personally and to see what it does globally.
I'm mostly just curious why the chip isn't publicly available. That's all. I personally hope to be able to use this chip in other designs.
Comparatively few Broadcom chips are available via channel partners. Unfortunately that's just the way our business model works.
Well, if the RP organization is getting them for their boards, why not resell them to hobbyists for cost or a very small margin to fund further research?
"Your business" here refers to Broadcom, when the internet generally thinks you're Raspberry Pi. That's the rub.
"Your business" here refers to Broadcom, when the internet generally thinks you're Raspberry Pi. That's the rub.
Maybe you have to be an old fart... I was here for this last time, but then I remembered that 'last time' was 1981.
This still looks like the most important thing of any kind for three decades to those of us who came out of the cheap home computer wave of the early 80s. (Me, I'm even closer to the Raspberry Pi heritage since I got my CS O-Level in 1987 with an IRC-alike network chat app for BBC LANs.)
So try not to cock it up, eh? :D
This still looks like the most important thing of any kind for three decades to those of us who came out of the cheap home computer wave of the early 80s. (Me, I'm even closer to the Raspberry Pi heritage since I got my CS O-Level in 1987 with an IRC-alike network chat app for BBC LANs.)
So try not to cock it up, eh? :D
I should throttle back my skepticism as well. I understand the intent of the project and I think it's a noble one.
We've already lost an entire generation of potential programmers by not having something like this in the post Apple ][ / BBC Acorn / C64 era. Maybe I'm an old fart by thinking that we don't need a full desktop running at 1080p to make the kids happy, but what do I know anymore.
It's an exciting and ambitious project that only the scale of current SoC systems can achieve. Unfortunately the environment also means licensing of cores and building of these highly complex chips by massive companies like TI and Broadcom. We're all afraid of obsolescence as things accelerate even more, of course, which is probably why we're so hard on Broadcom here.
We've already lost an entire generation of potential programmers by not having something like this in the post Apple ][ / BBC Acorn / C64 era. Maybe I'm an old fart by thinking that we don't need a full desktop running at 1080p to make the kids happy, but what do I know anymore.
It's an exciting and ambitious project that only the scale of current SoC systems can achieve. Unfortunately the environment also means licensing of cores and building of these highly complex chips by massive companies like TI and Broadcom. We're all afraid of obsolescence as things accelerate even more, of course, which is probably why we're so hard on Broadcom here.
Actually I could never afford a C64 nor Apple II. ZX81 and Spectrum where the thing for me.
The obvious guess would be their plan is to limit access to the chip until the pi became the "defacto standard" board, similar to the beagleboard or arduino, but I don't know why they're doing it.
They're selling at cost, so it's not to lock in the profit. Whats the benefit of retaining control? Unless they're also going to bring the board to a consumer product and don't want competition, but that's not really their market.
They're selling at cost, so it's not to lock in the profit. Whats the benefit of retaining control? Unless they're also going to bring the board to a consumer product and don't want competition, but that's not really their market.
When it comes to hobby boards, "Defacto standards" don't mean a thing to chip companies. We might like to think it matters...but Broadcom is selling hundreds of millions of parts a year to companies like Apple. Does 50,000 or even 500,000 Raspberry Pis over it's lifetime mean anything to a company like this?
I would agree with you but clearly it does mean something to them. The Raspberry Pi is getting a chip that is currently not available to the public
As well, as described by Liz in their comments on the Quake 3 post, "Eben works for Broadcom (and they’re giving us some great support – we wouldn’t be able to have got the project this far without their generous help)" http://www.raspberrypi.org/?p=106#comment-1764
Maybe it is only Eben's employment at Broadcom that is helping them get support and the chip sourcing, because otherwise I agree, Broadcom would not care about this.
As well, as described by Liz in their comments on the Quake 3 post, "Eben works for Broadcom (and they’re giving us some great support – we wouldn’t be able to have got the project this far without their generous help)" http://www.raspberrypi.org/?p=106#comment-1764
Maybe it is only Eben's employment at Broadcom that is helping them get support and the chip sourcing, because otherwise I agree, Broadcom would not care about this.
Looking at Broadcom's part numbers, it's not a "current" product but it seems to fit in the same series of numbers as their 3G baseband processors and mobile multimedia processors.
I get the feeling it's a new mobile multimedia processor (judging by the HDMI+ARM+3d graphics supprot) which is being conveniently repurposed.
I reckon it'll be on the market soon enough but don't expect to be able to get anything out of Broadcom unless you want volume. Even Farnell don't carry their parts.
I get the feeling it's a new mobile multimedia processor (judging by the HDMI+ARM+3d graphics supprot) which is being conveniently repurposed.
I reckon it'll be on the market soon enough but don't expect to be able to get anything out of Broadcom unless you want volume. Even Farnell don't carry their parts.
Sounds congruent to what we've experienced in the past.
Even worse is attempting to get customer support from them when you find massive problems in their part but you only ship a few thousand a year...
It just irks me that while the Raspberry Pi in itself is a great product that will be a minor revolution, its impact could be so much greater if this chip was available to all developers.
I guess I should shut my mouth, at least the second product to get the chip is a somewhat philanthropic effort and not another streaming media box.
Even worse is attempting to get customer support from them when you find massive problems in their part but you only ship a few thousand a year...
It just irks me that while the Raspberry Pi in itself is a great product that will be a minor revolution, its impact could be so much greater if this chip was available to all developers.
I guess I should shut my mouth, at least the second product to get the chip is a somewhat philanthropic effort and not another streaming media box.
Sounds like any large vendor :)
I agree with you. I'll put my RMS hat on here, but I'm concerned that it's a 100% proprietary platform for education. The old BBC Micros that we had here in the UK were made out of standard bits and had schematics so you could strap what the hell you liked to them (or modify them). They were replaced with utter proprietary crap from Research Machines and it has been like that ever since.
We need some open hardware as well if you ask me.
I agree with you. I'll put my RMS hat on here, but I'm concerned that it's a 100% proprietary platform for education. The old BBC Micros that we had here in the UK were made out of standard bits and had schematics so you could strap what the hell you liked to them (or modify them). They were replaced with utter proprietary crap from Research Machines and it has been like that ever since.
We need some open hardware as well if you ask me.
With 700MHz ARM11 cpu (Broadcom BCM2835), if they had 1GB of RAM, it would be pretty close to a mainstream device (1GB is about $10 now, though they're using low power ram on the device).
See also: Demo: Raspberry Pi running Quake 3 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2932910 ----- Raspberry Pi - The alpha boards are here http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2880507 ----- Raspberry Pi $25 PC goes into alpha production http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2822255
See also: Demo: Raspberry Pi running Quake 3 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2932910 ----- Raspberry Pi - The alpha boards are here http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2880507 ----- Raspberry Pi $25 PC goes into alpha production http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2822255
$25 for a textbook? If only! I spend $50-$300 per class for engineering textbooks.
Also, the analog port is, I believe, only available on the $35 version of the Raspberry Pi. It also works with HDMI and DVI (the latter through an adapter), so you don't need to go scrounging for an analog TV.
Also, the analog port is, I believe, only available on the $35 version of the Raspberry Pi. It also works with HDMI and DVI (the latter through an adapter), so you don't need to go scrounging for an analog TV.
The $25 textbook reference is based on children at school, not young adults in universities. I don't know about America, but in England $25 is a pretty good estimate for textbooks used by 8-18 year olds.
I think the comparison is supposed to be with high / secondary school textbooks, which are cheaper than university ones. Raspberry Pi is a charity "to promote the study of computer science and related topics, especially at school level" and the device is aimed, in part at least, for use in teaching programming to children.[1]
[1] http://www.raspberrypi.org/?page_id=2
[1] http://www.raspberrypi.org/?page_id=2
If only that were the case... When I was in high school, replacing a lost Calculus textbook would have cost $120.
I suspect $25 for a textbook is more common in non-Western countries, which would likely be a great market for these things as well.
I think both the analog port and the hdmi port are available on both versions (model A and model B, shades of the BBC micro). THe only difference between the 2 is the amount of RAM (128 vs 256) and the IO (1 USB vs 2USB + Ethernet). Be aware that the B's 2 USB + ETHERNET are internally connected to the Broadcom's single USB port though... you're not adding bandwidth, just ports.
In the last few weeks I've tinkered with the idea of doing hardware hacking. This and the plug-computers look like they have an interesting future. Where do you start to learn to hack real hardware? (I can do Arduino stuff, but seems like there is a big jump I don't know how to make.)
what sort of "hack real hardware" do you want to do?
I was going to say something else, but I thought, people should just say their dreams, even if they sound crazy, and maybe they'll find someone who can make it happen. So here goes:
I have a particular dream to open up an Android tablet; get plan9 running on it so I can share my screen, peripherals, files, and programs across a local network; and hack a keyboard onto the back so I can code while standing on the subway. Rough silly mockups here: http://electriceloquence.net/articles/re-imagining-mobile-ha...
I have a particular dream to open up an Android tablet; get plan9 running on it so I can share my screen, peripherals, files, and programs across a local network; and hack a keyboard onto the back so I can code while standing on the subway. Rough silly mockups here: http://electriceloquence.net/articles/re-imagining-mobile-ha...
The keyboard on the back is a terrific idea. Just a nitpick: I'm begging you, if you can, straighten those dammed keys.
http://www.loup-vaillant.fr/articles/better-keyboards
http://www.loup-vaillant.fr/articles/better-keyboards
This is an excellent point. In the process of doing research I came across these ideas. The difficult part is it's easy to find and disassemble split "ergonomic" keyboards with staggered keys. But I can't find a straight keyboard that uses two separate control boards, and I don't think I'm going to be able to make my own control boards anytime soon...
Personally I think this is fantastic.
I wish I could've had something to tinker with when I was younger, without fear of getting in trouble for messing it up.
I don't have kids of my own, but I'll probably buy these for my nieces and nephews, hopefully get them into it young.
I'll likely buy a couple of these for myself, too, to use as media PCs.
I don't have kids of my own, but I'll probably buy these for my nieces and nephews, hopefully get them into it young.
I'll likely buy a couple of these for myself, too, to use as media PCs.
OLPC has a $100 PC, India has a $10 PC, and now these guys have a $25 PC.
What do they all have in common? They all have in common that NONE OF THEM EXIST. Yes, that's right. These projects get announced as if they are factual existing devices, with announcements using verb tenses suggesting they are currently in production and available. But then looking for details we find that no one is sure what the form of the device will be, or what parts will be involved because they are not developed products. That is a deceptive practice. And you know what, people who resort to such deceptive practices aren't the sorts of persons that can manage to deliver the goods.
edit: wow, downvotes, that is awesome. When downvoting, please also respond with a web page where I can purchase OLPC for $100, the India PC for $10, or this one for $25. Thanks.
What do they all have in common? They all have in common that NONE OF THEM EXIST. Yes, that's right. These projects get announced as if they are factual existing devices, with announcements using verb tenses suggesting they are currently in production and available. But then looking for details we find that no one is sure what the form of the device will be, or what parts will be involved because they are not developed products. That is a deceptive practice. And you know what, people who resort to such deceptive practices aren't the sorts of persons that can manage to deliver the goods.
edit: wow, downvotes, that is awesome. When downvoting, please also respond with a web page where I can purchase OLPC for $100, the India PC for $10, or this one for $25. Thanks.
The OLPC XO-1 was designed for third-world markets: the only way you could acquire one in the US (and possibly other countries?) was by paying $200, which both got you one and sponsored one for a third-world child. (My cousins actually have one, so I know they exist.) They stopped this deal a year or two ago, though.
The India PC was never $10 outright, IIRC: it was $10 after some rather massive subsidies.
The Raspberry Pi literally went into alpha production a week ago, and software support is in its very early stages. Expecting to be able to buy it right now is a little silly.
The India PC was never $10 outright, IIRC: it was $10 after some rather massive subsidies.
The Raspberry Pi literally went into alpha production a week ago, and software support is in its very early stages. Expecting to be able to buy it right now is a little silly.
OLPC's Give 1 Get 1 program actually cost each donor US$400, of which $200 paid for a donated laptop and $200 paid for a laptop for the donor. I don't know whether they ever eventually got the price close to $100.
I know this because I own an OLPC XO-1 that I acquired through the G1G1 program. See also http://www.olpcnews.com/countries/usa/olpc_xo_laptop_sale.ht...
I know this because I own an OLPC XO-1 that I acquired through the G1G1 program. See also http://www.olpcnews.com/countries/usa/olpc_xo_laptop_sale.ht...
I have an OLPC XO-1, I used it every week. It is my favorite laptop. I have very good net access with it and use this little gem for my server maintenance needs... cool little thing. If OLPC would do another give-1-get-1, I would pick three.
Now, I want do a little bulk order of Raspberry Pis when they are available and see what I can do with them for my community.
About the downvotes, you COULD buy an OLPC for $200 during the give 1 get 1 phase. I got mine, if you were truly interested in these projects, you would knew that. You're just a flamer...
Now, I want do a little bulk order of Raspberry Pis when they are available and see what I can do with them for my community.
About the downvotes, you COULD buy an OLPC for $200 during the give 1 get 1 phase. I got mine, if you were truly interested in these projects, you would knew that. You're just a flamer...
How is it a flame? The $100 OLPC doesn't exist, the $10 India PC doesn't exist and this $25 PC doesn't exist. You confirm this with your post and then claim I am flaming and downvotes warranted.
If they exist, where are they?
I might as well post about the $75 automobile we have for sale, details on engine and number of wheels not available as we haven't decided, but the one thing we know is it's $75. Completely absurd to be taking such a claim seriously. The product doesn't exist. Pointing to products that cost substantially more doesn't prove anything. I can buy a new ASUS Eee PC 1015PE Seashell with 1GB RAM, a 1.66GHz processor and a 160GB hard drive for $200. That is something that is for sale and being produced by a for-profit company. OPLCs produced for $200 are not evidence that the $100 OPLC exists. The $100 OPLC never existed, nor did the $10 Indian PC, nor does this $25 PC claim.
If they exist, where are they?
I might as well post about the $75 automobile we have for sale, details on engine and number of wheels not available as we haven't decided, but the one thing we know is it's $75. Completely absurd to be taking such a claim seriously. The product doesn't exist. Pointing to products that cost substantially more doesn't prove anything. I can buy a new ASUS Eee PC 1015PE Seashell with 1GB RAM, a 1.66GHz processor and a 160GB hard drive for $200. That is something that is for sale and being produced by a for-profit company. OPLCs produced for $200 are not evidence that the $100 OPLC exists. The $100 OPLC never existed, nor did the $10 Indian PC, nor does this $25 PC claim.
The Raspberry Pi doesn't exist because products take time to develop. However, the progress we have seen indicates that it is on track to be launched in November, exactly when they said it would be.
Fantastic, I look forward to purchasing a complete functioning PC for $25. I hope someone is taking preorders somewhere too.
The flame is in the tone, not in the facts. But the power of tone is such that many readers will flame in the facts themselves. Tone alone can discredit everything you say, to the point where you can't even say "Okay, I'm sorry, but […]" because nobody will read past "but" anyway.
Believe me, I've been nearly kicked out of 2 online communities for my tone. Anyway the fighting burnt me out, so I left.
Believe me, I've been nearly kicked out of 2 online communities for my tone. Anyway the fighting burnt me out, so I left.
How the hell did you type on that thing? I have one and I can _easily_ type on an Acer Aspire One 8.9" netbook, which many people complain about typing on.
I couuldn't come close to touch typing on my XO due to how close together the keys are. I think the feel of the keyboard would have been at least a minor stumbling block even if the key spacing were wider.
Obviously the design must work pretty well for children, so I'm not complaining about its intended use whatsoever, but I have no idea how an adult could reasonably type on it.
I couuldn't come close to touch typing on my XO due to how close together the keys are. I think the feel of the keyboard would have been at least a minor stumbling block even if the key spacing were wider.
Obviously the design must work pretty well for children, so I'm not complaining about its intended use whatsoever, but I have no idea how an adult could reasonably type on it.
As you say, the keyboard was designed for primary school children, who have no trouble with it, and immense trouble with keyboards for adults. You can plug in a cheap USB keyboard, no problem.
The $100 Laptop could have been done, but OLPC and the buyer countries agreed that it was better to add more memory and storage, and use a faster processor. Also, the dollar was falling during the design phase. So the actual production cost came to $188, and the price to governments in quantity 10K was $189. More than 2 million have been sold, delivered, and put into the hands of students all over the world. (Later designs cost less, and we have every confidence in reaching the $100 price point due to the inexorable working of Moore's Law.) You can buy one on eBay for about $150. I own two, which I have named thing1 and thing2.
The $10 PC from India was a publicity stunt, not a PC, and never went into production.
The Raspberry Pi is $25, needing in addition a keyboard, display, external storage, and networking. That should come to about $150-$200. These guys just now announced the first engineering test build, and you complain that they didn't go into production yesterday.
"Please check your facts before posting nonsense to the Internet."--Beable van Polasm, alt.religion.kibology
The $10 PC from India was a publicity stunt, not a PC, and never went into production.
The Raspberry Pi is $25, needing in addition a keyboard, display, external storage, and networking. That should come to about $150-$200. These guys just now announced the first engineering test build, and you complain that they didn't go into production yesterday.
"Please check your facts before posting nonsense to the Internet."--Beable van Polasm, alt.religion.kibology
I suspect you're right in that the $25 is probably just a BOM cost (and an optimistic one at that). Once you actually try to get it built and delivered into someones hands, especially in small batches, I'm sure that $25 could ballon 2-5x easily.
Nope. BOM cost is well under $25. The price includes a healthy component margin, assembly cost (in the UK), assembly margin, test and OTP programming cost. We are professional electrical engineers; we know how to do this stuff (and in any case, it's not rocket science).
Volume assumption is 10K batches. Anyone think I can't sell 10K of these?
Volume assumption is 10K batches. Anyone think I can't sell 10K of these?
I'm personally buying three (one for me, one each for the kids). I manage a team of unix sysadmins, you've got quite a few sales lined up there. 10K should go in about.. 5 minutes?
I wish you the best of luck in the venture. I hope it's very successful.
Regarding the GPU (BCM2763?):
Can you share any more details on the user space situation? Will there be Xorg/Mesa/Gallium support? Will you be relying on Broadcom's driver team for updates, if any, or do you guys have driver source under NDA with which you can support the GPU in future?
This seems to be the biggest concern for many who are looking at the platform. Just trying to gauge what kind of useful lifespan this board will have with regards to keeping an up to date Linux distro running on it. There's going to be a lot of flux and ABI changes ahead in the Linux graphics stack. Some more GPU details on your Wiki would be great if you have them available.
Can you share any more details on the user space situation? Will there be Xorg/Mesa/Gallium support? Will you be relying on Broadcom's driver team for updates, if any, or do you guys have driver source under NDA with which you can support the GPU in future?
This seems to be the biggest concern for many who are looking at the platform. Just trying to gauge what kind of useful lifespan this board will have with regards to keeping an up to date Linux distro running on it. There's going to be a lot of flux and ABI changes ahead in the Linux graphics stack. Some more GPU details on your Wiki would be great if you have them available.
Where do I get $25 textbooks?
The same place you get 50 cent antibiotics and $1 DVDs. If you are in the US, UK, CA, or western europe no need to apply. The publishers have decided you can pay more and will charge you thusly.
Or try to get one of the international students to give you theirs. Makes you laugh internally to know you spent $100s of dollars on engineering textbooks while the internationally student sitting next to you has the same one in paperback and probably paid $10 for it. And that's if their government scholarship doesn't include the book stipend.
Or try to get one of the international students to give you theirs. Makes you laugh internally to know you spent $100s of dollars on engineering textbooks while the internationally student sitting next to you has the same one in paperback and probably paid $10 for it. And that's if their government scholarship doesn't include the book stipend.
Buying international versions was one trick I wish I had learned when I was just starting college. It would have saved me a lot of money over time for the same content.
You used to be able to do so through Amazon but the publishers caught on fairly quickly. I managed to get a bio book that way, my ex-gf bought her organic chemistry books ($$$) this way as well. The next semester they were no longer visible even when searching by ISBN.
At places selling textbooks to schools, not to university students.
Used on amazon.
Won't the second-hand price of this particular book be pushed up by the numbers of people after it for the free Stanford AI class that uses it?
The price drop after the class is over may be higher than the increase.
Tracking price and availability of used books might be interesting to plot against course difficulty ramp up.
Look to the international editions.
These are often shipped from India - quite thin paper but the same content:
http://www.abebooks.com/products/isbn/9780136042594
http://www.abebooks.com/products/isbn/9780136042594
What's to stop some consumer electronics manufacturer from buying Raspberry Pis and building them into a device? I'd actually like to do that myself, but if they're selling the boards at cost, that wouldn't be sustainable.
[deleted]
While the 25$ model certainly costs them, the 35$ one may not. Plus, if they have massive commands, they may be able to invoke some economy of scale.
Can you say vaporware?
Want to build this board yourself? You can't. Try to find information about this Broadcom BCM2835 chip. It only leads back to the Raspberry Pi (and a teardown of the roku 2 media player). Broadcom has not released even a 1-page summary datasheet on this chip. The only specs released are in relation to the Raspberry Pi.
I work for a small tech company that would LOVE to be able to use this chip and as of today it's impossible to even get the datasheet unless you are in "the club" of trusted broadcom customers (or their employee, as one raspberry pi creator is apparently?)
Will this chip ever be sold to the public?