“Kids who grew up on smartphones do not know how to do anything on a computer”(reddit.com)
reddit.com
“Kids who grew up on smartphones do not know how to do anything on a computer”
https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/o3k5rt/safari_15_on_mac_os_a_user_interface_mess/
146 comments
The benefits/downsides of the modern user experience. Way back in the day, your odds of successfully using a computer were terribly low, without getting entangled in-depth in the technical details of how the computer worked. Editing text configuration files, wrangling with file systems, memory layouts and protection, hardware drivers, even patching binary executables with hex editors sometimes! All common experiences in the 1980s and 1990s. If you did anything more than run WordPerfect or SimCity (and often even then) it was basically unavoidable that you learned at least a bit about fairly low-level aspects of the machine you were using. Of course the fact that nothing worked well enough you had to do that was frustrating, but it probably also taught some useful skills and intuitions.
This is precisely why "we" know it and neither our parents or children do.
We were forced to do it just to make it work the way we wanted. It was necessary. Hell, even semi-regular routine of formatting [the hard-drive] and reinstalling Windows because it was getting slow; taught a lot of people the simple basics. All of that is lost today.
Factory reset -> input email & password -> sit back while everything reinstalls. What do you learn from that other then to make sure you had a backup of your data.
We were forced to do it just to make it work the way we wanted. It was necessary. Hell, even semi-regular routine of formatting [the hard-drive] and reinstalling Windows because it was getting slow; taught a lot of people the simple basics. All of that is lost today.
Factory reset -> input email & password -> sit back while everything reinstalls. What do you learn from that other then to make sure you had a backup of your data.
Automobiles were very much the same. When they first started coming out, you really had to be a mechanic to own one. Autoshops/garages weren't a thing in the beginning. PCs were the same way. These days there's tons of auto shops and PC repair shops. You don't need to know a single thing about how a car or PC operates, you just take it to a shop when it has problems and have someone else fix it.
If an individual wants to learn, they only need to pop the hood, look inside the machine, and check out tutorials and videos on youtube. Plenty of people grew up with computers and never learned a thing about how they worked, they'd just have someone else who knew about them fix their problems.
We weren't forced to learn about them or had to, we chose to. That choice applies today as much as it did 25 years ago when I had to have my dad fix my computer for me. I just happened to want to learn how he did it and how to do it myself.
If an individual wants to learn, they only need to pop the hood, look inside the machine, and check out tutorials and videos on youtube. Plenty of people grew up with computers and never learned a thing about how they worked, they'd just have someone else who knew about them fix their problems.
We weren't forced to learn about them or had to, we chose to. That choice applies today as much as it did 25 years ago when I had to have my dad fix my computer for me. I just happened to want to learn how he did it and how to do it myself.
Reinstalling windows was domain knowledge on a per PC basis, in my experience.
I had a draft UDMA/66 port on which I wanted my MASTER IDE (for performance), but Windows would not install on anything above UDMA/33. It would run fine once installed, however. The procedure was straight forward, but IDEs didn't announce its presence, instead there were manual MASTER/SLAVE jumpers on the drive themselves that would have to line up with the manually configured BIOS settings. Once Windows was installed, everything had to be physically pulled out, ports and cables changed, jumpers and BIOS checked or configured, enabling UDMA/66 (and thus disabling the 2nd IDE port, but not 3 and 4) and you could start using the OS.
And Windows installation would BSOD with the network card in, so that would have to be added later but before downloading the necessary WaReZ.
I also got into Linux at the very end of the 2.4 line, and vividly recall how everything changed to be more user-friendly with the 2.6 series of kernels.
I had a draft UDMA/66 port on which I wanted my MASTER IDE (for performance), but Windows would not install on anything above UDMA/33. It would run fine once installed, however. The procedure was straight forward, but IDEs didn't announce its presence, instead there were manual MASTER/SLAVE jumpers on the drive themselves that would have to line up with the manually configured BIOS settings. Once Windows was installed, everything had to be physically pulled out, ports and cables changed, jumpers and BIOS checked or configured, enabling UDMA/66 (and thus disabling the 2nd IDE port, but not 3 and 4) and you could start using the OS.
And Windows installation would BSOD with the network card in, so that would have to be added later but before downloading the necessary WaReZ.
I also got into Linux at the very end of the 2.4 line, and vividly recall how everything changed to be more user-friendly with the 2.6 series of kernels.
I think we were at a sweetspot around the 2000s... The windows XP era.
But this is most likely my own familiarity bias?
But this is most likely my own familiarity bias?
I think the sweet spot was people growing up in the time that their early experience spanned the DOS & 8-bit era into the ubiquity of GUIs (say mid-1980s to mid-1990s), which may reflect my own familiarity bias though I was technically a little earlier than that.
I'll second that. Saw some early PC and even wrote a basic Basic program in, must have been math class in the gymnasium (~"high school", class 10-12), but really started using computers at university in 1985 -- first a minicomputer with TTY (and even some printing!) terminals in 1985, then PCs a year or so later. First with a colourful menu system (Press 1 for DisplayWriter, 2 for MINITAB, etc) [1], then Windows 3 a year or so after that.
My son, recently of age, has no fucking idea about anything beneath the GUI. OTOH, my somewhat older stepson is a games and recently "full stack" -- which has something to do with tis newfangled Web thingy, I think -- programmer. (OTGH, fuck knows what he knows of anything beneath Unity and React...)
___
[1]: That is, press a number and then [Enter]. This, I later (after some rudimentary hints on DOS from a classmate) found out, called the batch files 1.BAT, 2.BAT, etc, which in turn set up whatever needed to be set up and then started the respective application.
My son, recently of age, has no fucking idea about anything beneath the GUI. OTOH, my somewhat older stepson is a games and recently "full stack" -- which has something to do with tis newfangled Web thingy, I think -- programmer. (OTGH, fuck knows what he knows of anything beneath Unity and React...)
___
[1]: That is, press a number and then [Enter]. This, I later (after some rudimentary hints on DOS from a classmate) found out, called the batch files 1.BAT, 2.BAT, etc, which in turn set up whatever needed to be set up and then started the respective application.
Determining the sweet spot is a fun thought. I'd argue for the Windows 7 era. General purpose computing is still the norm. The web & apps have almost as many services as now, but with less bloat and less tracking. There's social media but it's not completely dominant. Linux for desktop is beginning to be in good shape. Smartphones are available for those who want them but they're not dominant yet either.
That's my personal one. I'm sure it'll be different for everyone else.
That's my personal one. I'm sure it'll be different for everyone else.
Windows 7 was the first time I installed a Windows OS and didn't have to custom install a bunch of drivers, it was all just done for me.
I doubt most people, with the exception of builders of custom rigs, even know that a driver is a thing.
I doubt most people, with the exception of builders of custom rigs, even know that a driver is a thing.
I worked at a computer helpdesk in college during this time. Cleaning up malware transmitted via email, IE6 and AIM made up the lion's share of my work.
In my experience, students understood computers a LOT better after being told that their term paper is not recoverable from their busted HDD, and that they should be saving their work on the network drive in future.
In my experience, students understood computers a LOT better after being told that their term paper is not recoverable from their busted HDD, and that they should be saving their work on the network drive in future.
I think it was before that to be honest. I grew up in that era and gui mentality was tough to overcome. The cli was a black box for me for years. Once I learned bash I felt like I knew exactly how a computer worked and how a text file could turn into a 3d video game. Before that it was black magic.
GUI computers still lets you do all of that though. The main damage the switch to smartphones has is that they severely limit what you are allowed to do with your computer, you cannot properly tinker with them even if you want to.
[deleted]
> Editing text configuration files, wrangling with file systems, memory layouts and protection, hardware drivers, even patching binary executables with hex editors sometimes!
These are terrible things to have to spend time on. This comment section reads like someone missing having to set dip switches on sound cards so they don't conflict with your printer.
These are terrible things to have to spend time on. This comment section reads like someone missing having to set dip switches on sound cards so they don't conflict with your printer.
> anything more than run WordPerfect or SimCity (and often even then)
Oh for sure, this gave me nostalgia of cracking pirated SimCity ISOs I had downloaded on Kazaa or Limewire or whatever it was that week.
Cracking ISOs with key breakers, patching DLL files, etc... all taught me a lot about how programs worked at a really young age.
Oh for sure, this gave me nostalgia of cracking pirated SimCity ISOs I had downloaded on Kazaa or Limewire or whatever it was that week.
Cracking ISOs with key breakers, patching DLL files, etc... all taught me a lot about how programs worked at a really young age.
Is this any different from any new tech? The first car owners had to know a lot about taking care of that car. When I was young, you were expected to know how to do many regular maintenance tasks on your car and fix the simple things. Today most people couldn't do much of anything on a new car. Same trajectory.
It goes beyond even tech. Home repair especially. The pragmatic knowledge had by my grandparents generation was just astounding to me. My grandpa was so damn smart. He was an engineer for Alcoa working with drafting tables and a slide rule. His brain was just rooted in mathmatics. One time we had a roll of some tar paper for a project and we needed to figure out how many feet we had left on the roll to see if we should buy another roll. He just put a ruler across the diameter, stared at it for a while, stared at the sky with his mouth open for a second, then he had the correct length. Blew my mind when I went home and looked up the formula he worked out correctly in his head in about 30 seconds:
𝐿=𝜋∗(𝑅2−𝑟2)/𝑇
I'd need to pull out a calculator to do anything with pi.
I've been wondering why that is, why this older generation was so much more focused so to speak. It makes sense when you consider the cultural influences surrounding that. My grandpa grew up in the great depression and rebuilt china after the japanese occupation during WWII. It was a matter of survival and pride to focus and improve yourself for your family. My fathers generation, it was popular to ditch class to smoke weed in the woods rather than pay attention in class. My generation, it was popular to be on your phone all day rather than pay attention in class. If all the generations since my grandfathers were as focused as his was on learning things, my word, maybe their now wild predictions on the glorious would be future in the atomic age would have actually materialized.
I'd need to pull out a calculator to do anything with pi.
I've been wondering why that is, why this older generation was so much more focused so to speak. It makes sense when you consider the cultural influences surrounding that. My grandpa grew up in the great depression and rebuilt china after the japanese occupation during WWII. It was a matter of survival and pride to focus and improve yourself for your family. My fathers generation, it was popular to ditch class to smoke weed in the woods rather than pay attention in class. My generation, it was popular to be on your phone all day rather than pay attention in class. If all the generations since my grandfathers were as focused as his was on learning things, my word, maybe their now wild predictions on the glorious would be future in the atomic age would have actually materialized.
Just because this is an older problem doesn't mean it's not a problem.
Yes, people that loved fixing up cars would have complained about "kids these days" not knowing how to fix a car. I was certainly one of those kids.
However seeing this happen with a field I know makes me realize those people complaining about people not knowing how to take care of their cars were right.
And while this is true of "any new tech", it's a relatively recent phenomenon as tech has only been advancing this rapidly in last 100 years or so.
It is a bad thing to be increasingly alienated from the tools you rely on for your day-to-day existence. Of course it's in part because cars and computers have both been increasingly designed by their manufactures to be difficult to take apart and understand. Tools that you don't understand increasingly control you rather than the other way around and I personally think this is a trend worth resisting.
It's good to point out that this is an issue and even better to encourage more people to be curious, and learn how things work. Another example that I'm surprised of is people's homes. I know a shocking number of home owners that cannot fix a single thing in their own home without calling a "professional" (and it's increasingly surprising how many professionals also don't understand what they're doing!) This was extremely evident during the freezing temperatures in Texas where many people didn't know how to shut off the water to their homes.
One of the best parts of the "hacker" mentality is to encourage people to not be scared of their tools and the things they own. While things have gotten more complicated, you can do a large amount of repair and modification on your own for almost everything. It honestly feels very liberating (not to mention saving you a lot of money) to snake a clog 12 ft deep in your drain, replace your car's serpentine belt, restore old hardwood floors, repair broken refrigerators from parts, etc.
Yes, people that loved fixing up cars would have complained about "kids these days" not knowing how to fix a car. I was certainly one of those kids.
However seeing this happen with a field I know makes me realize those people complaining about people not knowing how to take care of their cars were right.
And while this is true of "any new tech", it's a relatively recent phenomenon as tech has only been advancing this rapidly in last 100 years or so.
It is a bad thing to be increasingly alienated from the tools you rely on for your day-to-day existence. Of course it's in part because cars and computers have both been increasingly designed by their manufactures to be difficult to take apart and understand. Tools that you don't understand increasingly control you rather than the other way around and I personally think this is a trend worth resisting.
It's good to point out that this is an issue and even better to encourage more people to be curious, and learn how things work. Another example that I'm surprised of is people's homes. I know a shocking number of home owners that cannot fix a single thing in their own home without calling a "professional" (and it's increasingly surprising how many professionals also don't understand what they're doing!) This was extremely evident during the freezing temperatures in Texas where many people didn't know how to shut off the water to their homes.
One of the best parts of the "hacker" mentality is to encourage people to not be scared of their tools and the things they own. While things have gotten more complicated, you can do a large amount of repair and modification on your own for almost everything. It honestly feels very liberating (not to mention saving you a lot of money) to snake a clog 12 ft deep in your drain, replace your car's serpentine belt, restore old hardwood floors, repair broken refrigerators from parts, etc.
[deleted]
Hi fellow hacker here!
I agree this is what a "hacker" truly means. We should "hack" more and gain back more control.
The term DIY does seem to appear less these days.
I agree this is what a "hacker" truly means. We should "hack" more and gain back more control.
The term DIY does seem to appear less these days.
Yes, it is different. With a car, no matter how modern, you still (used to) command where it drives you. In a smartphone, someone else makes this decision for you. (Or at least someone else limits your options.)
There is obviously a difference between not knowing what a URL is and not being able to read assembly. Both could be seen as "arcane details of computer knowledge" that enhance your autonomy when using a computer, but one is in principle accessible to 95% of the world's population without much effort, the other is a highly specialized technical skill.
There is obviously a difference between not knowing what a URL is and not being able to read assembly. Both could be seen as "arcane details of computer knowledge" that enhance your autonomy when using a computer, but one is in principle accessible to 95% of the world's population without much effort, the other is a highly specialized technical skill.
There's also a weird thing with computers where people are a lot less willing to think a problem through.
If you put someone in an unfamiliar car and ask them to drive it somewhere, the most trouble they're likely to have is if they need to figure out how to turn on the wipers in the dark. The controls may vary but they're close enough that people figure it out.
Put that same person in front of their work computer, but rearrange all the desktop icons and change the color scheme. There's a non-zero chance that they immediately freeze up and act like there's no possible way for them to do anything. They act like human macros, any slight change throws everything off.
If you put someone in an unfamiliar car and ask them to drive it somewhere, the most trouble they're likely to have is if they need to figure out how to turn on the wipers in the dark. The controls may vary but they're close enough that people figure it out.
Put that same person in front of their work computer, but rearrange all the desktop icons and change the color scheme. There's a non-zero chance that they immediately freeze up and act like there's no possible way for them to do anything. They act like human macros, any slight change throws everything off.
I don't think that metaphor works. On roads, other people already limited your options: where you can go, how fast, where you can park, etc.
The issue is, cars used to be all analog. You pull this wire that thing moves. But nowadays cars are more digital than analog.
Not exactly analogous though. They didn't need to know how to fix their cars to get through high school assignments. How the hell did kids turn in essays and whatnot? I doubt they were printing them. Or was literally everything done in Google Docs?
I have a kid in HS and everything is google docs now. She does not know what a file or a directory is.
From my experience most non-IT workers were the same pre cloud.
They just do things by rote and save everything to a single folder or their desktop - its why a lot of office workers hate change to new application or operating system versions, they don't understand how it works they have just memorized a bunch of steps to follow to get a task done.
They just do things by rote and save everything to a single folder or their desktop - its why a lot of office workers hate change to new application or operating system versions, they don't understand how it works they have just memorized a bunch of steps to follow to get a task done.
When Chromebooks came out, Google made schools a major target for those devices. Looks like it worked.
And meanwhile, the 'directory structure' of Google docs remains one of the worst I've seen. Haven't opened a document in 6 months? Good luck finding it without using the search bar.
And meanwhile, the 'directory structure' of Google docs remains one of the worst I've seen. Haven't opened a document in 6 months? Good luck finding it without using the search bar.
Why not? A doc is a file, and GDrive still has directories, or folders. Not everything is a doc, there are sheets, pdfs, pics, among others
Usually when turning in it's either a document already created in google clasroom, so you just click a button and it turns in, or it's found via the list of "recently opened documents."
I don't think she knows the difference between those document types other than she can type into one but not the others. A PDF and a read-only google text document are essentially the same thing as far as she is concerned.
I don't think she knows the difference between those document types other than she can type into one but not the others. A PDF and a read-only google text document are essentially the same thing as far as she is concerned.
Well, except if you took auto shop class during high school :)
Wouldn't it be the other way around?
As cars became more popular for transportation, people stopped learning how to take care of horses.
As cars became more popular for transportation, people stopped learning how to take care of horses.
OP is referring to the improvement in cars over time. Something I just barely remember the tail end of (and I'm not old). Over the 20th century, cars went from something you basically had to be a mechanic to own and drive, to machines where you push a button and steer.
Until modern engines under computer control (1980s) it wasn't guaranteed your car would start when you turned the key. Especially in a cold place like here. Pop the hood, fiddle with the carburetor, fiddle with the fuel ratio, apply a heating pad. Something like that was the morning routine for my father's old pickup truck.
Such unreliability would immediately result in such a vehicle being discarded as defective today, but it was pretty normal back then. I seem to recall far more "sorry I'm late, but the car wouldn't start" even in the 90s than today. Of course, getting rid of the handcrank to start was probably the biggest improvement but that was before my time :)
Until modern engines under computer control (1980s) it wasn't guaranteed your car would start when you turned the key. Especially in a cold place like here. Pop the hood, fiddle with the carburetor, fiddle with the fuel ratio, apply a heating pad. Something like that was the morning routine for my father's old pickup truck.
Such unreliability would immediately result in such a vehicle being discarded as defective today, but it was pretty normal back then. I seem to recall far more "sorry I'm late, but the car wouldn't start" even in the 90s than today. Of course, getting rid of the handcrank to start was probably the biggest improvement but that was before my time :)
The nostalgia for old cars being simple and reliable is baffling, I guess because they were always cantankerous a bigger failure wasn't as jarring, whereas modern cars are like appliances that work reliably all the time until something big happens like a timing belt or transmission fails.
Smartphones are basically computers with training wheels. People who never stop using training wheels do not know how to ride a bike.
This makes me wonder if the older generations with tech careers should feel less pressured by the newer generations as it seems there is actually a huge drop in knowledge - but this may be superficial knowledge that's easily learned?
Does the younger generations actually need to know how a computer or the internet works, and is the pool of knowledge actually growing just not at a comparable rate to the entire population?
I know many of us wether we are programmers, designers or STEM people in general all started tinkering by ourselves or with friends on a computer, in terminals, in Photoshop, with HTML or with games and modding on anything from Commodore 64's to Arduinos today - what is going to happen when kids aren't doing this anymore, or maybe they are but just in new ways?
Does the younger generations actually need to know how a computer or the internet works, and is the pool of knowledge actually growing just not at a comparable rate to the entire population?
I know many of us wether we are programmers, designers or STEM people in general all started tinkering by ourselves or with friends on a computer, in terminals, in Photoshop, with HTML or with games and modding on anything from Commodore 64's to Arduinos today - what is going to happen when kids aren't doing this anymore, or maybe they are but just in new ways?
I have a buddy who teaches technology to young kids.
He complains all the time about how he can't assume that kids know anything fundamental about computers.
Things such as manually saving files go above kids heads since the modern auto-save is so ubiquitous. Kids assume that all monitors are touch screen at first and will poke the screen before touching the KB&M.
File directories might as well be a magical black box. Good luck trying to get anyone to figure out how to print something if the default printer doesn't immediately work.
He wants to help, but is always shocked at how much kids simply do not know any of the primitives of a computer
He complains all the time about how he can't assume that kids know anything fundamental about computers.
Things such as manually saving files go above kids heads since the modern auto-save is so ubiquitous. Kids assume that all monitors are touch screen at first and will poke the screen before touching the KB&M.
File directories might as well be a magical black box. Good luck trying to get anyone to figure out how to print something if the default printer doesn't immediately work.
He wants to help, but is always shocked at how much kids simply do not know any of the primitives of a computer
> Kids assume that all monitors are touch screen at first
That happened to me with my 2 year old at the local library. I spent a few minutes showing him how to use the mouse. Then he touched the screen… and it worked. FML, the computer had a touch screen and a mouse.
That happened to me with my 2 year old at the local library. I spent a few minutes showing him how to use the mouse. Then he touched the screen… and it worked. FML, the computer had a touch screen and a mouse.
"Civilization advances by extending the number of important operations which we can perform without thinking of them."
Alfred North Whitehead
Alfred North Whitehead
I'm sure Alfred North Whitehead wasn't advocating stuff like not teaching the fundamentals of the why and how we can make these abstractions.
> I'm sure Alfred North Whitehead wasn't advocating stuff like not teaching the fundamentals of the why and how we can make these abstractions.
I’m sure he wasn't advocating it so much as recognizing that it was inherently, inevitably, and universally a consequence of progress.
I’m sure he wasn't advocating it so much as recognizing that it was inherently, inevitably, and universally a consequence of progress.
In 2nd-6th grade school in late 80s we had to learn to program (logo) which was great fun.
We had to get a perfect on a 100 question computer test to graduate 6th grade. RAM vs ROM vs Disk drive sort of questions. Not fun. At the time I complained endlessly because I kept getting 97 or so.
Wow did that set me up for success in the future.
This was private Christian grade school. Way ahead on the tech curve compared to most schools.
Wow did that set me up for success in the future.
This was private Christian grade school. Way ahead on the tech curve compared to most schools.
100% is ridiculous.
But perhaps maybe tests like that can get people to stop referring to non-volatile storage as "memory".
But perhaps maybe tests like that can get people to stop referring to non-volatile storage as "memory".
I don't much agree with the RAM = "memory" thing. "Memory" colloquially is for remembering things. RAM and storage are both for the computer to remember things, so it's natural to think they are both memories. It adds to the confusion that there are "memory cards" that employ "flash memory", the same tech that powers SSDs, which is nowadays a primary way of doing storage.
If you think about it, RAM is short term memory, and storage is long term memory, no?
If you think about it, RAM is short term memory, and storage is long term memory, no?
Is that wrong ? Often I see RAM refered as memory with nonvolatile memory being reffered as storage.
Also there are old (ferite core) and new (NVRAM) technologies that are more or less both, further blurring the distinction.
Also there are old (ferite core) and new (NVRAM) technologies that are more or less both, further blurring the distinction.
> Is that wrong ?
Yes.
> Often I see RAM refered as memory with nonvolatile memory being reffered as storage.
That would be the correct nomenclature.
> Also there are old (ferite core) and new (NVRAM) technologies that are more or less both, further blurring the distinction.
The distinction isn't based on how it's built, but the use case and volatility. Memory is volatile and only intended for storing data for actively running programs.
SSDs and NVMe drives are storage, despite them looking like RAM chips, because they are non-volatile. When you remove power, they still have the data. A mobile device's "flash memory", which despite being called "memory", is storage.
Yes.
> Often I see RAM refered as memory with nonvolatile memory being reffered as storage.
That would be the correct nomenclature.
> Also there are old (ferite core) and new (NVRAM) technologies that are more or less both, further blurring the distinction.
The distinction isn't based on how it's built, but the use case and volatility. Memory is volatile and only intended for storing data for actively running programs.
SSDs and NVMe drives are storage, despite them looking like RAM chips, because they are non-volatile. When you remove power, they still have the data. A mobile device's "flash memory", which despite being called "memory", is storage.
Tell IBM in 1955. "Magnetic cores are attractive as memory elements because they are small, fast, and they provide non-volatile storage."[1]
[1] https://patents.google.com/patent/US2778005A/en
[1] https://patents.google.com/patent/US2778005A/en
In my school (3rd world country, but expensive school), we had to draw the flag of our country (stripes, circles) with QBasic in MS-DOS.
This would have been around 1997. I remember complaining because I had an older sibling at the same school, and all they had to do was draw the flag in MS Paint.
This would have been around 1997. I remember complaining because I had an older sibling at the same school, and all they had to do was draw the flag in MS Paint.
I have a friend who teaches classes at a technical college. During the day one of the classes is a programming class for high schoolers. He said that none of the kids knew what a file was when he tried to get them to open or save something.
It’s definitely interesting to contrast my experience with that of my child. My parents were completely illiterate when it came to computers and electronics in general, so I basically taught myself how to take things apart and fix them when they broke, figured out how to get a modem set up to connect to the internet, etc. In some ways my experience with technology was driven by necessity as much as it was by curiosity.
Now the devices that my child uses can’t be easily taken apart and the solution when they break is to get a new one. They don’t have any reason to learn about the software internals, either, because everything “just works” as soon as they power a device on and the internet is always available.
Now the devices that my child uses can’t be easily taken apart and the solution when they break is to get a new one. They don’t have any reason to learn about the software internals, either, because everything “just works” as soon as they power a device on and the internet is always available.
Haha I'm only in my early 30's and I feel like an absolute dinosaur when we have an internet outage and I tell the kids that there was a time when we didn't always have internet access, and even a time when we didn't have internet at all!! It's unfathomable to them.
The same happened with cars. There was a generation before cars, then a generation with cars that needed a lot of maintenance, and now we have cars where it’s not necessary anymore to know how they work.
It's not like cars are dramatically more or less reliable to be fair. It's that they've gotten more complicated to the point where what used to be simple garage fixes anyone could do by following along the haynes manual now require a mechanic to take off the entire front end of the car and hours more labor as a result, and no one has the time, much less the tooling like engine lifts on hand to do that themselves (see most fixes for Audis since the 2000s).
Modern cars are way more reliable than maybe 30 years ago. When I started driving a car with 100000km usually started falling apart. Now you can easily get 200000 and more they also rust way less.
Repairability of modern tech like phones and computers has gone the same way that cars have gone. It used to be pretty easy to open a laptop and even phones but now everything is often glued together.
And I don’t think it’s because they are more complex. I think they are making manufacturing cheaper at the expense of making repair more complex.
Repairability of modern tech like phones and computers has gone the same way that cars have gone. It used to be pretty easy to open a laptop and even phones but now everything is often glued together.
And I don’t think it’s because they are more complex. I think they are making manufacturing cheaper at the expense of making repair more complex.
When did you start driving? Only getting 60k miles doesn't fit my experience driving japanese cars since the 90s. Our family had a 2000 subaru that clocked 350k miles before the engine finally blew up and we scrapped it. My uncle drives old volvos from the 80s since he can wonk on them in his own garage, and he gets numbers like that too. You look up user forums and you will find the same experiences with these decent old cars.
I started in the 80s and my first few cars were from 70s or early 80s. Back then most engines lasted around 100000km and cars rusted pretty badly after 10 years. That has improved enormously since then. Engine management has also become more reliable. Carburetors needed constant maintenance once they got older, so did the ignition systems back then.
The flip side is that anyone who wants to become a programmer has a wealth of learning resources available to them that did not exist for earlier generations.
I had to spend hours scouring forums to piece together information that is available as a youtube video these days.
I had to spend hours scouring forums to piece together information that is available as a youtube video these days.
Not only that, but you have access to cheap powerful home machines with the ability to run virtual machines to tinker on.
In the past a lot of the appeal for hacking was to just get exposure to exotic machines, whereas now you can run the same stuff everyone else does locally.
In the past a lot of the appeal for hacking was to just get exposure to exotic machines, whereas now you can run the same stuff everyone else does locally.
You were lucky to have forums. An older generation had to resort to books and magazines :-)
Nothing beats manually copying hundreds of lines of b&w code from a book and missing some syntax and having no idea why.
Actually, punch cards beat this.
Actually, punch cards beat this.
> Nothing beats manually copying hundreds of lines of b&w code from a book and missing some syntax and having no idea why.
That's why Neil J. Rubenking's and Jim Seymour's stuff in PC Magazine had checksums at the end of each line you typed in. Those were the days.
That's why Neil J. Rubenking's and Jim Seymour's stuff in PC Magazine had checksums at the end of each line you typed in. Those were the days.
I had the worst of both worlds in the late 2000s when I was trying to learn on my own.
There were printed books where the code didn't work. There were also message board posts that described my exact problem. The only response would be from the OP himself, usually a "never mind, figured it out" thing, with no further details given.
There were printed books where the code didn't work. There were also message board posts that described my exact problem. The only response would be from the OP himself, usually a "never mind, figured it out" thing, with no further details given.
You were lucky if you didn't have to learn a whole 'nother language first too, just saying. :-)
The first-order effect of this seems to be a continuous shift towards high-level programming languages. I have a sibling around this age, and the technologically savvy kids seem to gravitate towards Python and Javascript libraries. When you can set up a server online for cheap and with simple installation instructions, these kids can avoid needing to learn a lot about how a computer actually works.
I think there's definitely a loss in some areas of tech, but there's corresponding gains in some other areas. We can see this type of growth with the development of many other technologies as well; how many large farmers do you think could fully care for their plants by hand? How many kids know how to write a letter, or use cursive? How much of a toilet could most people conceivably fix? Low-level knowledge is often "lost" because it's not needed to actually use an advanced technology.
I agree that it will be interesting to see what trajectory this takes. COBOL runs a huge amount of our financial infrastructure, and almost nobody knows how to update/fix it. It'll be fascinating to see what the next COBOL will be.
I think there's definitely a loss in some areas of tech, but there's corresponding gains in some other areas. We can see this type of growth with the development of many other technologies as well; how many large farmers do you think could fully care for their plants by hand? How many kids know how to write a letter, or use cursive? How much of a toilet could most people conceivably fix? Low-level knowledge is often "lost" because it's not needed to actually use an advanced technology.
I agree that it will be interesting to see what trajectory this takes. COBOL runs a huge amount of our financial infrastructure, and almost nobody knows how to update/fix it. It'll be fascinating to see what the next COBOL will be.
> these kids can avoid needing to learn a lot about how a computer actually works
That sounds like progress. Don't worry, plenty of kids will still be interested in how computers work at lower levels.
That sounds like progress. Don't worry, plenty of kids will still be interested in how computers work at lower levels.
Problem is that plenty of those kids will wont have the opportunity to explore that interest since they wont have a computer to access. Even poor homes used to have a computer at home since it was such a useful device, but then they switched to smartphones and having a computer is becoming a class issue again.
For those that are interested, PCs are much more affordable these days.
Older folks have been baskets of knowledge my entire career. You sit down with an old grey beard, you're going to learn something, and hear a great story. But they haven't always been valued to the extent they should.
I don't think this new phenomonom changes things. These kids are still smart, and their knowledge is infiintely practical. But they might not be up to speed how it works under the covers. That takes some expereince, and time. The kids have alot of value, and i'd hire them. But the old guys are still needed to keep the high level stuff functioning while the kids learn.
I don't think this new phenomonom changes things. These kids are still smart, and their knowledge is infiintely practical. But they might not be up to speed how it works under the covers. That takes some expereince, and time. The kids have alot of value, and i'd hire them. But the old guys are still needed to keep the high level stuff functioning while the kids learn.
I feel bad typing this because it’s just anecdotal but I do think the people just ten years younger than me seem far incapable of figuring really simple things out on their own. There’s no problem with asking questions but at least have some due diligence done.
I really struggle getting that point across too because they want to be spoon fed the answer (btw these are folks from top 20 CS schools) or complain that nobody is training them.
I guess that’s what being glued to a phone and social media for hours a day does to people.
Again just my opinion from my personal experience.
I really struggle getting that point across too because they want to be spoon fed the answer (btw these are folks from top 20 CS schools) or complain that nobody is training them.
I guess that’s what being glued to a phone and social media for hours a day does to people.
Again just my opinion from my personal experience.
In some of the discords I'm in for programming as a hobby, I see people who are 10+ years below me that are far more motivated, knowledgeable, and competent that I was at that age (and some moreso than I am now).
I doubt there's any significant differences between the populations.
I doubt there's any significant differences between the populations.
This makes me think of my grandfather, a master mason who worked with thousands of other masons to build large parts of my city.
That skillset is nearly forgotten. Sure there are great instructional youtube videos and instagram masons who are brilliant but the vast talent pool is gone. We struggled to find someone to patch a giant rock wall earlier this year. I understand why people don't want to learn it and haul rocks and bricks everyday but that knowledge base is on it's way out.
That skillset is nearly forgotten. Sure there are great instructional youtube videos and instagram masons who are brilliant but the vast talent pool is gone. We struggled to find someone to patch a giant rock wall earlier this year. I understand why people don't want to learn it and haul rocks and bricks everyday but that knowledge base is on it's way out.
Related, a great thread from simonw: https://twitter.com/simonw/status/1440725351949213700
"This is fascinating: as-of 2017 university instructors have been increasingly encountering students who have absolutely no idea how files and folders on a computer work"
"This is fascinating: as-of 2017 university instructors have been increasingly encountering students who have absolutely no idea how files and folders on a computer work"
Hmm, i originally linked to this comment specifically:
https://old.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/o3k5rt/safari_15_on_...
Not the reddit top post itself - seems the link's had the querystring removed after a while?
Anyways, that's the relevant comment that this thread should link to :)
https://old.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/o3k5rt/safari_15_on_...
Not the reddit top post itself - seems the link's had the querystring removed after a while?
Anyways, that's the relevant comment that this thread should link to :)
It is amazing to me that a generation that grew up with computers is so technologically illiterate. I spend so much time solving technology problems with my kids (between the ages of 12 and 24) since they are clueless. It turns out that using phones, chromebooks, ipads, and a browser in a laptop is not enough to become technically literate. I even tried teaching them things over the years. They have absolutely no interest. They just want to get in there and go to Instagram, Spotify, etc. and don't want to know how any of it works. It is like someone who just wants to drive the car and doesn't want to know how anything under the hood works.
It's so weird that your kids have different interests than you. Are they equally baffled about your lack of interest in their hobbies?
Their hobbies are literally instagram, youtube, and spotify. Any attempt to encourage them to expand their interest beyond these is met with indifference.
Talk to them about what they're watching on youtube or listening to on spotify, those are their interests. The apps are the just conduits. It's like your parents complaining about TV and Nintendo.
You don't have any kids, do you? On youtube they watch people creating minecraft worlds. When I talk to them about why they don't play minecraft themselves they tell me they would rather watch someone else. It so strange. They don't play video games. They watch other people playing video games. On instagram they just look at pictures of other people doing stuff. It's like they are living vicariously through other people's lives (most of which are surely fake) instead of living their own lives.
> You don't have any kids
I do actually.
> they tell me they would rather watch someone else
It sounds like they'd rather watch someone else.
I do actually.
> they tell me they would rather watch someone else
It sounds like they'd rather watch someone else.
After that discussion do you sit down on the couch and watch the football?
I don’t watch sports.
This is so true. I grew up in the GUI era and while I knew how to wonk the control panel better than my parents, the CLI was a black box for me for a long time. I couldn't even fathom how you could just write up some text into a file and that becomes a video game. It's probably so much worse if you've been handed an ipad or a chromebook and that's all you know. You don't even have access to the actual file system.
These days though, the bar has been lowered dramatically. I work with some high schoolers for some research projects occassionally. This one kid must have been raised on ipads and chrome books. The goal was to copy the text output of some software connected to the instrument, paste it into a text document on notepad, and save the file. The kid looked at me like I was speaking french. I had to teach him how to copy and paste with a mouse, and teach him what a text file was.
Are kids taught computer classes anymore or touch typing, like I was? Or are they just handed their school issued chromebook or ipad and its assumed they know how to open the browser to g suite?
All these layers of abstraction make it hard to actually understand whats going on. It's like we've flipped the learning curve from being really hard at the start then easier (like learning CLI tools and programming then it "clicks" when you realize the syntax is similar across most languages and you can pick up anything easily), to really easy at the start and impossible to understand later because we abstracted away what actually happens.
These days though, the bar has been lowered dramatically. I work with some high schoolers for some research projects occassionally. This one kid must have been raised on ipads and chrome books. The goal was to copy the text output of some software connected to the instrument, paste it into a text document on notepad, and save the file. The kid looked at me like I was speaking french. I had to teach him how to copy and paste with a mouse, and teach him what a text file was.
Are kids taught computer classes anymore or touch typing, like I was? Or are they just handed their school issued chromebook or ipad and its assumed they know how to open the browser to g suite?
All these layers of abstraction make it hard to actually understand whats going on. It's like we've flipped the learning curve from being really hard at the start then easier (like learning CLI tools and programming then it "clicks" when you realize the syntax is similar across most languages and you can pick up anything easily), to really easy at the start and impossible to understand later because we abstracted away what actually happens.
Apple's What's A Computer ad from 2017
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pI-iJcC9JUc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pI-iJcC9JUc
That's just Apple marketing though. Since day 1 their messaging would have you believe that "computing" is the domain of fusty old number crunchers, while Apple products are somehow beyond all that.
I appreciate Android more and more because from a design standpoint, it had "desktop" features on day 1. File explorers apps, or being able to choose which app to open a file with. Connect it to a PC and it becomes a USB storage device.
Yet somehow Apple, which required the god-awful iTunes software to do anything sync-related, won the MP3 player battle.
I appreciate Android more and more because from a design standpoint, it had "desktop" features on day 1. File explorers apps, or being able to choose which app to open a file with. Connect it to a PC and it becomes a USB storage device.
Yet somehow Apple, which required the god-awful iTunes software to do anything sync-related, won the MP3 player battle.
I have also found this to be true. Very surprising and, frankly, hilarious. I teach an intro to programming course to grad students, many of them freshly minted undergrads.
I've had to explain the concept of downloading files, file system directory structure and other basics. These are students are at a pretty good school, studying to become data scientists!
The reason is exactly what the author in the link says. They grew up with smart devices, but apparently not desktop/laptop computers.
I've had to explain the concept of downloading files, file system directory structure and other basics. These are students are at a pretty good school, studying to become data scientists!
The reason is exactly what the author in the link says. They grew up with smart devices, but apparently not desktop/laptop computers.
This reveals how the chasm between mobile operating systems (iOS, Android) and "desktop" operating systems (OSX, Windows) are impacting generations. The next generation live nearly their entire lives on smart phones and tablets. I think most almost never use a desktop computer unless they have to. And why should they? These mobile devices can do almost all conventional tasks that one would want out of a desktop computer. You mention that the concept of files is bewildering to them. And this makes sense when you consider the fact that mobile operating systems are "application based" while desktop operating systems are "file based". On a mobile OS, you never have to think about managing files. Everything is managed by the app. On desktops however, the user has more responsibility to properly manage files and have the appropriate application to run them.
It's made worse by the iPhone's hilariously bad support in allowing users to update the URL in the location bar. Try moving your cursor to the very end of the URL, it's an exercise in frustration.
I only recently learned the “long press on the space bar” feature of iOS. It’s still cumbersome to navigate the url but far less so than tapping, which seems intentionally designed to be infuriatingly difficult to navigate.
Kids grow up being consumers of computers, but are never taught how to become general-purpose creators on computers.
It's going to be strange seeing how this plays out. Will the consumer mentality bleed over into power users? Will schools bring back "computer basics" classes?
It's going to be strange seeing how this plays out. Will the consumer mentality bleed over into power users? Will schools bring back "computer basics" classes?
The generation gap is real, and it's rapidly shrinking too. 4 years apart is a completely different generation, at least experience wise.
I can sympathize - it is tough to live in a world that isn't your own, where the default expectations isn't what you know. The same aggravation is played out when a dad realizes his son doesn't know how to make a shed or fix a car, and when your parents don't know how to use a smartphone or not get scammed by nigerian prince schemes.
The world relies so much on established knowledge, and this established knowledge makes it hard for the generations to relate to each other.
I can sympathize - it is tough to live in a world that isn't your own, where the default expectations isn't what you know. The same aggravation is played out when a dad realizes his son doesn't know how to make a shed or fix a car, and when your parents don't know how to use a smartphone or not get scammed by nigerian prince schemes.
The world relies so much on established knowledge, and this established knowledge makes it hard for the generations to relate to each other.
Isn't "not knowing how to type in a URL" what the web was supposed to be like? The URL:s were supposed to be a behind-the-scenes thing; the users were just supposed to navigate hypertext? Instead URL:s ended up front and center, and we got monstrosities like a domain name for a single movie, because that's the only way of making a short-enough-to-remember URL.
Also, not knowing what application to open a PDF with... isn't that what we have tried to turn user interfaces into ever since someone invented the document metaphor?
Also, not knowing what application to open a PDF with... isn't that what we have tried to turn user interfaces into ever since someone invented the document metaphor?
[deleted]
https://old.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/o3k5rt/safari_15_on_...
Link to old.reddit.com so you can experience the old, and far superior IMO, reddit layout if you're not logged in and have that option enabled.
Link to old.reddit.com so you can experience the old, and far superior IMO, reddit layout if you're not logged in and have that option enabled.
[deleted]
More of a failure of the education system. It was part of our curriculum that taught us how to use a computer, what internet is, how to use office (openoffice rather), sending emails, elements of UI, ...etc. This is 1998 I'm talking about - geez that's 23 years ago. I didn't grow up with a computer and this is how I learnt how to use one. This is basic computer literacy and there's nothing wrong in teaching it. (Way more important than programming IMO)
Same with banking, composing a letter, sending money orders - you name it. We had one subject dedicated to this starting 9th grade.
These days because tech is everywhere we seem to assume that we don't have to teach it in a formal way.
Same with banking, composing a letter, sending money orders - you name it. We had one subject dedicated to this starting 9th grade.
These days because tech is everywhere we seem to assume that we don't have to teach it in a formal way.
So typing a URL into a browser is today's opening a terminal to type a command, got it.
I was a teen through the 90s, and had a small consulting/computer sales business in my 20s while it was still common for home PCs to be built from components, which exposed me to a decent cross-section of computer-using society (in IL) at the time. This was the early days for the Pentium class machines and Windows 95 was all the rage.
Back then most adults didn't know how to use a computer either. The moment a terminal was required to get something done, eyes glazed over. If they couldn't simply point and click on something, it wasn't happening.
I was a teen through the 90s, and had a small consulting/computer sales business in my 20s while it was still common for home PCs to be built from components, which exposed me to a decent cross-section of computer-using society (in IL) at the time. This was the early days for the Pentium class machines and Windows 95 was all the rage.
Back then most adults didn't know how to use a computer either. The moment a terminal was required to get something done, eyes glazed over. If they couldn't simply point and click on something, it wasn't happening.
“Kids who grew up with cars do not know how to do anything with a horse.”
“Kids who grew up with automatic transmission don't know how to do anything with stick.”
“Kids who grew up with agriculture don't know how to hunt and gather.”
“Kids who grew up with automatic transmission don't know how to do anything with stick.”
“Kids who grew up with agriculture don't know how to hunt and gather.”
Mouse + keyboard + big screen computers aren't going anywhere anytime soon. When they start to migrate office workers to appstore devices rather than computers then I'd believe you, but todays appstore devices doesn't offer enough to replace computers.
> Mouse + keyboard + big screen computers aren't going anywhere anytime soon.
Yeah, and people still ride and otherwise use horses and hunt and gather, and cars are older than smartphones and agriculture is much older.
The niches shrink, though.
Yeah, and people still ride and otherwise use horses and hunt and gather, and cars are older than smartphones and agriculture is much older.
The niches shrink, though.
The issue is that computers haven't been replaced. iPhones still use files and directories, people just aren't allowed to look at all of them. They're being kept ignorant of how the device they use actually works.
Is this globally true, or somehow worse in Japan (where the author teaches)?
Japanese is worse because of smartphone environment. Most Japanese people use "Flick Input" to input Japanese and Alphabet characters on smartphone, that's totally incompatible to Qwerty. Meanwhile most Japanese people use (and be taught) Qwert Input to input Japanese and Alphabet character on PC. Flick input is really useful, but it's not good to be familiar with Qwerty input on PC.
Add to this, we tend to don't need PC for life (but is needed for office work). Nintendo and Sony is headquartered here (technically SIE is now HQ'd in the US but most people don't know) so PC gaming isn't a huge thing (but now it'S growing). Tax filling isn't needed for normal sararyman. Urban homes are tend to small. Schools are really behind for everything. People tend to not good at English.
Add to this, we tend to don't need PC for life (but is needed for office work). Nintendo and Sony is headquartered here (technically SIE is now HQ'd in the US but most people don't know) so PC gaming isn't a huge thing (but now it'S growing). Tax filling isn't needed for normal sararyman. Urban homes are tend to small. Schools are really behind for everything. People tend to not good at English.
I used to teach computer science first semesters a few years ago and I got tons of emails from people who couldn't manage to boot and/or install the linux distro we gave them on an introductory usb drive. These were intelligent kids with plenty of education and many of them couldn't figure out how to do basic networking or formatting stuff either.
My working class dad who had like 8 years of formal education in his entire life taught himself visual basic in the 90s through magazines and books. Getting emails from students who could theoretically just type stuff into google at 1 am was a genuine shocker to me.
(this is Germany in my case)
My working class dad who had like 8 years of formal education in his entire life taught himself visual basic in the 90s through magazines and books. Getting emails from students who could theoretically just type stuff into google at 1 am was a genuine shocker to me.
(this is Germany in my case)
> I got tons of emails from people who couldn't manage to boot and/or install the linux distro we gave them on an introductory usb drive
This was also true back in 2006 when I took Computer Engineering (in Canada). Installing an OS was never trivial.
This was also true back in 2006 when I took Computer Engineering (in Canada). Installing an OS was never trivial.
I don't think I'd expect people to know how to install linux, or any other operating system for that matter tbh.
It’s the same in Germany and the US from what I can tell. Seems technology has reached the point of “good enough for daily use” the same way cars have reached that point and people don’t need to understand how cars work.
[deleted]
I have a theory about the Japanese and their relationship to the PC, having lived there for a bit in the mid 90s. This comes down to three things:
First, Japan had a mindblowing consumer electronics industry way before we did. There were special purpose devices for everything you could want. They were all user friendly and did not require understanding how the underlying system worked. They didn't need a PC since all their electronic needs were already met and met better.
Second, Japan is basically 99% urban living, as space is at an insane premium, and even when you are in the country the houses are built small due to culture and lack of open space, since if you're not in the city you're probably in the mountains. This means there was no physical place to even put a PC in most Japanese houses the way American houses might have a desk in a corner or even an office.
Third, and probably the most important, phone calls in Japan were always pay by minute, even for local calls. This meant that if you were online with a modem, you were paying the phone bill just sitting there. This meant that if a person even had a modem, the would rarely use the internet. Since America had monthly-billed phones, there was no problem staying up all night on AOL chatrooms, and AOL really was the killer app that pushed PCs into American houses.
IMO this is why the PC revolution that really took off in American homes, and by association a bunch of us who cut our teeth mucking about with bat files so we could play our DOS games and ended up learning useful skills out of necessity never happened in Japan.
First, Japan had a mindblowing consumer electronics industry way before we did. There were special purpose devices for everything you could want. They were all user friendly and did not require understanding how the underlying system worked. They didn't need a PC since all their electronic needs were already met and met better.
Second, Japan is basically 99% urban living, as space is at an insane premium, and even when you are in the country the houses are built small due to culture and lack of open space, since if you're not in the city you're probably in the mountains. This means there was no physical place to even put a PC in most Japanese houses the way American houses might have a desk in a corner or even an office.
Third, and probably the most important, phone calls in Japan were always pay by minute, even for local calls. This meant that if you were online with a modem, you were paying the phone bill just sitting there. This meant that if a person even had a modem, the would rarely use the internet. Since America had monthly-billed phones, there was no problem staying up all night on AOL chatrooms, and AOL really was the killer app that pushed PCs into American houses.
IMO this is why the PC revolution that really took off in American homes, and by association a bunch of us who cut our teeth mucking about with bat files so we could play our DOS games and ended up learning useful skills out of necessity never happened in Japan.
They also skipped PCs and went straight to doing web tasks on cell phones.
I remember going there in 2001 and imode websites were already in heavy use with the people I met, whereas at home they were trying to push WAP but it was too expensive to get traction.
I remember going there in 2001 and imode websites were already in heavy use with the people I met, whereas at home they were trying to push WAP but it was too expensive to get traction.
Fascinating. I wonder if the lack of early internet usage led to their companies falling behind on providing competitive internet services. I'm thinking of otherwise innovative companies like Nintendo and Sony that were very late to the game compared to their Western competitors.
I don't think phone calls makes huge difference for current situation. Flat rate calling plan only for night was available in 90s (but yeah it's for nerds so your point is vaild). ADSL were widely available in about 2001-2006. FTTH is now virtually available everywhere (except some condos with fragile "free" internet).
The timing is huge. There was a period time from the late 80s to I'd say Win98 when computers became affordable, they were useable by laypeople, but they still weren't easy yet. You still had to learn about some of the underlying ideas to do anything useful. By 2001 user-focused OSes had gotten figured out to the point where they mostly worked and people needed to know less and less about the underlying technology.
The key really was that brief time period where hardware had finally become widely available but software was still catching up with the new mass market.
The key really was that brief time period where hardware had finally become widely available but software was still catching up with the new mass market.
Anecdotal: I went back to college for night school, and the classmates in my math course were all around 20 years old. I made a habit of sitting in the front row and taking photos of the whiteboard during each class, which I used to supplement my notes.
Leading up to the final exam, I brought my laptop to class and burned all of those photos onto CD-Rs (for free) for anyone who wanted one.
Anyway, when the students around me noticed that I was using the keyboard to drive this process instead of dragging files around, they were utterly amazed.
Leading up to the final exam, I brought my laptop to class and burned all of those photos onto CD-Rs (for free) for anyone who wanted one.
Anyway, when the students around me noticed that I was using the keyboard to drive this process instead of dragging files around, they were utterly amazed.
I expected they would've been amazed at CD-Rs. Even back when I was in college the practice was to pass a USB stick around the class with notes, PDF of textbook, etc.
Coincidentally I was working at an antivirus company at the time, so if anyone had suggested such a communal USB drive I would definitely have opted out.
This is why I use USB SDCard readers instead. I can write protect the SDCard.
I was in college 8+ years ago and we would use GroupMe. I’ve heard people still use it or what’s app. No need to share any type of media.
Who even owns a disk drive anymore
This is nothing new. Here is post from 2013 saying almost the same thing:
Kids can't use computers... and this is why it should worry you [1]
[1] http://www.coding2learn.org/blog/2013/07/29/kids-cant-use-co...
Kids can't use computers... and this is why it should worry you [1]
[1] http://www.coding2learn.org/blog/2013/07/29/kids-cant-use-co...
I just reread my own blog post and it makes me cringe a little, but nevermind. I was younger and angrier back then.
However my point still stands, that digital literacy is on the decline. Having said that, I've raised four children and two of them are quite comfortable striping a computer down, reinstalling an operating system, using a CLI and SSHing into a remote Linux server to run Minecraft and CSGO.
It's my current job to teach kids how to use computers, and I think we're making some progress.
However my point still stands, that digital literacy is on the decline. Having said that, I've raised four children and two of them are quite comfortable striping a computer down, reinstalling an operating system, using a CLI and SSHing into a remote Linux server to run Minecraft and CSGO.
It's my current job to teach kids how to use computers, and I think we're making some progress.
It's a very good article, solid points, illustrative anecdotes. The tone really fits the topic, as a fellow geek, I have a very similar experience despite being in a completely different life situation.
ironically, they would probably find the command line more straight-forward than Windows desktop.
I highly doubt that. These are people who have essentially never used a keyboard to do anything but type messages. If they can't type in a URL, I doubt they'll be able handle a terminal. All the younger people I know just click icons. Even if they want to move something, they drag-and-drop. No one's heard of cutting or file extensions or knows the layout of a file system. They would understand zero parts of `mv ~/Downloads/photo.jpg ~/Pictures/photo.jpg`.
The only way that would work is if your CLI is just a pipe to an improved version of Google Assistant or Siri that can generously understand natural language.
The only way that would work is if your CLI is just a pipe to an improved version of Google Assistant or Siri that can generously understand natural language.
Yeah you’re probably right about how none of them manually type URLs anymore. Precision in typing is no longer a necessary skill.
If that would be considered an issue, it would be the least worrying thing about smartphone addiction.
Even if you would want your kids to grow up to become developers, there's no reason why they'd have to "learn computers" when they're young.
Even if you would want your kids to grow up to become developers, there's no reason why they'd have to "learn computers" when they're young.
This isn't about individuals but about society. The past decades the number of computer literate adults has massively increased, which is a good thing. But the trend is reversing since the basics you learn when you use a phone isn't nearly as powerful as the basics you learn when using a regular computer.
There isn't much we can do about this trend, it will continue no matter if we want to change it or not. But talking about a trend and what consequences it will have is still interesting.
There isn't much we can do about this trend, it will continue no matter if we want to change it or not. But talking about a trend and what consequences it will have is still interesting.
> There isn't much we can do about this trend...
Sure there is! We can start making an actual organized attempt to teach computer literacy in schools. We've been leaning on "children will learn this stuff on their own" for too long, and the result has been that students from less privileged backgrounds often never learned it -- it's about time we fixed that.
Sure there is! We can start making an actual organized attempt to teach computer literacy in schools. We've been leaning on "children will learn this stuff on their own" for too long, and the result has been that students from less privileged backgrounds often never learned it -- it's about time we fixed that.
You're almost exactly right -- the only thing you're wrong on, IMO, is "students from less privileged backgrounds". Because AFAICS, it's students from more privileged backgrounds too.
All adults learn to use Word, Excel or whatever they may need for work, I'm sure they are not hampered in this by not having used computers when young.
I mean, what's the societal benefit from young people "knowing how to use computers"? It's not like they won't learn when they enter university.
Also, I don't think the claim is even true, where I live kids have to use computers every day in school from around 10 years old.
I mean, what's the societal benefit from young people "knowing how to use computers"? It's not like they won't learn when they enter university.
Also, I don't think the claim is even true, where I live kids have to use computers every day in school from around 10 years old.
Learning something for work isn't the same as having one at home that you can play with growing up. Share of homes with computers is going down if you don't count smartphones. This means that less kids who wants to do things with computers will be able to do it.
> It's not like they won't learn when they enter university.
That is a good point, add "increases the burden for people to enter university" and "increases the divide between those with degrees and without" to the lists of problems this causes. Soon people will probably assume you don't know how to use a computer if you didn't go to college.
> It's not like they won't learn when they enter university.
That is a good point, add "increases the burden for people to enter university" and "increases the divide between those with degrees and without" to the lists of problems this causes. Soon people will probably assume you don't know how to use a computer if you didn't go to college.
> Learning something for work isn't the same as having one at home that you can play with growing up
Before you said we were talking about society. Society doesn't care about people's hobbies.
> That is a good point, add "increases the burden for people to enter university" and "increases the divide between those with degrees and without" to the lists of problems this causes.
Do you have any support at all for these statements? It seems to me that more people than ever have access to computers, at younger ages. When I was at university in the late 90's people didn't bring laptops, now elementary school kids do. And every other boy is addicted to Fortnite.
Before you said we were talking about society. Society doesn't care about people's hobbies.
> That is a good point, add "increases the burden for people to enter university" and "increases the divide between those with degrees and without" to the lists of problems this causes.
Do you have any support at all for these statements? It seems to me that more people than ever have access to computers, at younger ages. When I was at university in the late 90's people didn't bring laptops, now elementary school kids do. And every other boy is addicted to Fortnite.
> Before you said we were talking about society. Society doesn't care about people's hobbies.
Society is built out of people; people are in large part built out of their hobbies as kids. TL;DR: You're wrong.
> It seems to me that more people than ever have access to computers, at younger ages. When I was at university in the late 90's people didn't bring laptops, now elementary school kids do. And every other boy is addicted to Fortnite.
My kid has had a laptop for school work since he started högstadiet (9th year), and is addicted not to Fortnite but, uh, "CS GO" I think (though on another laptop)... And (despite my occasional attempts to impart some knowledge) he knows fuck-all about what we would consider basic computer usage. TL;DR: You're still wrong.
Society is built out of people; people are in large part built out of their hobbies as kids. TL;DR: You're wrong.
> It seems to me that more people than ever have access to computers, at younger ages. When I was at university in the late 90's people didn't bring laptops, now elementary school kids do. And every other boy is addicted to Fortnite.
My kid has had a laptop for school work since he started högstadiet (9th year), and is addicted not to Fortnite but, uh, "CS GO" I think (though on another laptop)... And (despite my occasional attempts to impart some knowledge) he knows fuck-all about what we would consider basic computer usage. TL;DR: You're still wrong.
Sadly one way to look at this might be similar to "the number of people who can drive an automatic transmission and change their own spark plugs is decreasing." Its true, but the underlying tech is changing too, so is it really a problem?
Smartphones doesn't replace computers though, every office worker needs to know how to use a computer since computers has an inherently more powerful UX. Smartphones has simpler UX, but computers has a more powerful UX.
Applications being able to assume that you have a keyboard, mouse and big screen really allows them to create way more powerful interactions while any tool made for a smartphone will be severely hampered by its UI limitations.
Applications being able to assume that you have a keyboard, mouse and big screen really allows them to create way more powerful interactions while any tool made for a smartphone will be severely hampered by its UI limitations.
> every office worker needs to know how to use a computer
Exactly, so more people than ever know how to use computers.
Exactly, so more people than ever know how to use computers.
Not sure if that is a joke or not. But if it isn't I think you greatly underestimate how many knew how to use a computer 10 years ago. Office workers aren't a big enough share to say that more people than ever know how to use a computer.
What category used to have a computer 10 years ago but doesn't now?
10 years ago people used computers for things that they use smartphones for today, like doing banking etc. So the category is everyone who feels they need a smartphone today but doesn't feel they need a computer today.
Assuming this is true. What is the benefit to society or individual of blue collar workers owning computers in order to do online banking?
Seems like a great benefit that they don’t have to deal with all the unnecessary complexity.
Being forced to learn enough computers to log on to your bank doesn’t make you more employable.
Seems like a great benefit that they don’t have to deal with all the unnecessary complexity.
Being forced to learn enough computers to log on to your bank doesn’t make you more employable.
Take a small example. Is Figma replacing photoshop for designers? Is Google Office replacing MSOffice? If these were to fully replace their local counterparts, then they would also obsolete the whole concept of navigating a file system as well.
contrast:
here's a fun interview with Matt Godbolt (of Compiler Explorer https://godbolt.org/ ) where he explains how he first learned to program -- first by typing Basic source code listings for games out of magazines into a ZX-Spectrum, then progressing to writing programs in assembly instructions and then assembling them by hand into machine code to enter into the machine as the ZX-Spectrum didn't come with free assembler.
https://corecursive.com/to-the-assembly/
here's a fun interview with Matt Godbolt (of Compiler Explorer https://godbolt.org/ ) where he explains how he first learned to program -- first by typing Basic source code listings for games out of magazines into a ZX-Spectrum, then progressing to writing programs in assembly instructions and then assembling them by hand into machine code to enter into the machine as the ZX-Spectrum didn't come with free assembler.
https://corecursive.com/to-the-assembly/
You can generalize to life, modern life crossed a line where the safety and comfort started to remove you from reality, skills and wisdom. Free is not good.
ps: it's not a rant, it's a natural side effects of our cultures. The selling point of most things is to simplify actions. Until you have nothing to do or understand. Then people are stuck in their comfort zone, isolated from anything worth thinking about.
ps: it's not a rant, it's a natural side effects of our cultures. The selling point of most things is to simplify actions. Until you have nothing to do or understand. Then people are stuck in their comfort zone, isolated from anything worth thinking about.
Bad news for PC gamers