Ask HN: Is it wrong to negotiate a standard new grad offer?
Hey HN,
I recently completed my internship at a 1000+ employee public tech company. I did great work, had stellar performance reviews (my manager and teammates liked me and had no constructive criticism), and I have years of other internship experience. I know for a fact other interns that did far less work (read: slacked off) got the same new grad offer as me. It’s a very generous offer, but out of principal I feel like I should be entitled to a better one if I can / did provide more value to the company. I tried negotiating and will hear back soon, but I was ultimately told they give new grads the same package as they know we talk offers and they wanted to remain fair. They say that my performance reviews once I’ve joined will determine my raises/promotions, but I’d rather start with a higher base than expect on a potential promotion. Some people have mentioned pay equity to me (I’m an upper class white cis male), and while I understand my privilege got me to where I am, I still worked hard to get here. Am I wrong to expect more?
9 comments
Always negotiate. If you can negotiate the team and project you work on, do so. Where you can make a big difference.
It's wrong to "expect" anything.
It's ok to negotiate, ask and hope for more. It can also be unfair to get the same as others, but still should not make it an "expectation" to get more (maybe others who performed worse had circumstances that affected them you are unfamiliar with?).
It's ok to negotiate, ask and hope for more. It can also be unfair to get the same as others, but still should not make it an "expectation" to get more (maybe others who performed worse had circumstances that affected them you are unfamiliar with?).
Your family background, gender, or ethnicity are irrelevant so don't buy into that BS.
It's never wrong to negotiate but I wouldn't say that people are 'entitled' to anything. You need to show your worth.
Ultimately they may indeed have policies and rigid salary bands and may not be able or willing to do much.
I do agree with you that it is important to get the best initial offer in general.
It's never wrong to negotiate but I wouldn't say that people are 'entitled' to anything. You need to show your worth.
Ultimately they may indeed have policies and rigid salary bands and may not be able or willing to do much.
I do agree with you that it is important to get the best initial offer in general.
They may expect you will still take the offer even if they don't budge, in which case they gain nothing by offering you more.
It may also be that they've run the numbers on whether, on average, they get a better deal overall (from all their new-grad offers) by remaining firm on all offers (even though they might expect to lose some high performers who get better offers elsewhere) vs being flexible on some top percentile of the offers. If you haven't heard of them ever negotiating a new-grad offer, then it may be that they don't.
Of course it may be in their interest to claim not to negotiate, while also finding reasons to justify bending the rules under some circumstances. I'd be less inclined to believe they don't negotiate for later-career hires.
> they give new grads the same package as they know we talk offers and they wanted to remain fair.
I'll add a note that this is effectively "we believe new grads are more likely to exercise their right to engage in protected speech regarding compensation" in case that changes anything about how you view it.
Edit: I don't know whether this makes you feel better or worse, but for what it's worth you're engaged in a high-stakes (for you) game (in the sense of game theory) with a counterparty who feels absolutely no emotion about this. Well, some of the individuals you're dealing with have feelings about it, but as an institution with 1000+ engineers, there is a script and a playbook and every single line you hear about "fair" or whatever is part of the institution's strategy and tactics. You might benefit from thinking of your own strategy and tactics in terms of leverage (do you have any?), rather than appeals to fairness.
It may also be that they've run the numbers on whether, on average, they get a better deal overall (from all their new-grad offers) by remaining firm on all offers (even though they might expect to lose some high performers who get better offers elsewhere) vs being flexible on some top percentile of the offers. If you haven't heard of them ever negotiating a new-grad offer, then it may be that they don't.
Of course it may be in their interest to claim not to negotiate, while also finding reasons to justify bending the rules under some circumstances. I'd be less inclined to believe they don't negotiate for later-career hires.
> they give new grads the same package as they know we talk offers and they wanted to remain fair.
I'll add a note that this is effectively "we believe new grads are more likely to exercise their right to engage in protected speech regarding compensation" in case that changes anything about how you view it.
Edit: I don't know whether this makes you feel better or worse, but for what it's worth you're engaged in a high-stakes (for you) game (in the sense of game theory) with a counterparty who feels absolutely no emotion about this. Well, some of the individuals you're dealing with have feelings about it, but as an institution with 1000+ engineers, there is a script and a playbook and every single line you hear about "fair" or whatever is part of the institution's strategy and tactics. You might benefit from thinking of your own strategy and tactics in terms of leverage (do you have any?), rather than appeals to fairness.
Negotiation is all about leverage and right now you have none.
I’d recommend doing the standard procedure - take the offer as-is, get a year at the company on your resume and then jump ship for a sweet pay increase.
I’d recommend doing the standard procedure - take the offer as-is, get a year at the company on your resume and then jump ship for a sweet pay increase.
It does not hurt to ask, especially at a larger corporation (you may hurt feelings at a smaller company for example). I would leave out any comparison to other interns and focus on how much value you have provided already. However, they may indeed have a policy of hiring new grads at a fixed pay level which prevents them from deviating from their initial offer. I don't think they are being particularly unreasonable though - pay scales don't really deviate much until after the first year.
It really is up to you what you want to do with the offer. You can take it and see how your career advances at your company, or shop around a bit and see if you can get a better opportunity elsewhere. If you feel like you are no longer learning and growing look for a new job at that point!
I worked for a low-paying job out of college but I did have a chance to work on a lot of great projects which did help put me on a good path now, so my advice is as long as you are growing in the right direction, and are recognized as a high achiever, don't worry too much!
It really is up to you what you want to do with the offer. You can take it and see how your career advances at your company, or shop around a bit and see if you can get a better opportunity elsewhere. If you feel like you are no longer learning and growing look for a new job at that point!
I worked for a low-paying job out of college but I did have a chance to work on a lot of great projects which did help put me on a good path now, so my advice is as long as you are growing in the right direction, and are recognized as a high achiever, don't worry too much!
I would start applying to other companies if there is time yet on hand. Your internship experience should help you get a few interviews.
If you can end up with an extra offer or two you can have some sort of leverage. But for the sake of money don’t choose something that you think you may not enjoy if your current offer in hand is an overall good opportunity to lean and grow. As another commentator pointed out you can always switch after a year or two
If you can end up with an extra offer or two you can have some sort of leverage. But for the sake of money don’t choose something that you think you may not enjoy if your current offer in hand is an overall good opportunity to lean and grow. As another commentator pointed out you can always switch after a year or two
Congratulations on your offer.
> Am I wrong to expect more?
It's fine for you to ask for more. But you shouldn't expect more as, from the company's perspective, it's highly unlikely that you're currently that valuable. In fact, it's very unlikely that you're as valuable as the offer you currently have; but they're willing to pay for potential.
Please don't take that as a criticism, it's true for nearly all graduates who are offered places on graduate programmes. The whole point of graddie programmes is to get folk to a point where they are valuable. Usually that's 18 months to 2 years down the track. So it doesn't make a lot of sense to differentiate incoming compensation as they're not paying for your current value.
TBH if the company did think you were currently valuable (as against potentially), they could have always just offered you a position as an experienced employee. That's likely easier to do in practice than mess around with a graddie programme. It's also very unusual in my experience for new graddies, even with internships under their belt. Very few have enough relevant experience to warrant it.
> Am I wrong to expect more?
It's fine for you to ask for more. But you shouldn't expect more as, from the company's perspective, it's highly unlikely that you're currently that valuable. In fact, it's very unlikely that you're as valuable as the offer you currently have; but they're willing to pay for potential.
Please don't take that as a criticism, it's true for nearly all graduates who are offered places on graduate programmes. The whole point of graddie programmes is to get folk to a point where they are valuable. Usually that's 18 months to 2 years down the track. So it doesn't make a lot of sense to differentiate incoming compensation as they're not paying for your current value.
TBH if the company did think you were currently valuable (as against potentially), they could have always just offered you a position as an experienced employee. That's likely easier to do in practice than mess around with a graddie programme. It's also very unusual in my experience for new graddies, even with internships under their belt. Very few have enough relevant experience to warrant it.
Here's my perspective.
If you weren't a recent grad, you'd be able to negotiate easily. In other words, your value has hit the wall of an inflexible policy. It happens.
Long term, this means that your compensation is anchored to this starting package while you remain at this company.
None of this makes things "Bad" but it might change how long it'll be before you doubt or regret accepting the offer.
If you take the offer decide how long you want to give it a fair chance. After that, you'll have more experience on your resume and you can interview again if you want.
If you don't take the offer, you will be able to negotiate with a different company, but you can't predict what offer they'll start with.
If you weren't a recent grad, you'd be able to negotiate easily. In other words, your value has hit the wall of an inflexible policy. It happens.
Long term, this means that your compensation is anchored to this starting package while you remain at this company.
None of this makes things "Bad" but it might change how long it'll be before you doubt or regret accepting the offer.
If you take the offer decide how long you want to give it a fair chance. After that, you'll have more experience on your resume and you can interview again if you want.
If you don't take the offer, you will be able to negotiate with a different company, but you can't predict what offer they'll start with.