Bitcoin befuddles US customs agents, thwarting visit by digital currency guru(geekwire.com)
geekwire.com
Bitcoin befuddles US customs agents, thwarting visit by digital currency guru
http://www.geekwire.com/2011/bitcoin-befuddles-customs-agents-thwarting-seattle-visit-digital-currency-guru
12 comments
Option 1 is asking for serious trouble! Prison time even. Never lie to them.
Even if you just intend to visit and and up doing some work you'll get in deep trouble, but if you lie about it from the start it'll be much worse.
And they do sometimes check.
A tourist visa and a work visa are not interchangeable.
Even if you just intend to visit and and up doing some work you'll get in deep trouble, but if you lie about it from the start it'll be much worse.
And they do sometimes check.
A tourist visa and a work visa are not interchangeable.
He was on a visa waiver - if he is British that allows him to do anything you can do on a B1 business visa. In fact the only reason you have to get a B1 visa is because you can't use the visa waiver if you are, say a convicted criminal!
You can work for your outside-the-US employer, you can collaborate with US customers, suppliers, partners, you can train them,you can sell, demonstrate and install products. About the only thing you can't do is work for a US company.
Picture if he was an engineer from Rolls Royce aero engines going to Boeing - everything that engineer might need to do you can do on a visa waiver.
You can work for your outside-the-US employer, you can collaborate with US customers, suppliers, partners, you can train them,you can sell, demonstrate and install products. About the only thing you can't do is work for a US company.
Picture if he was an engineer from Rolls Royce aero engines going to Boeing - everything that engineer might need to do you can do on a visa waiver.
Indeed, but if you're self-employed, then you should either say you're coming from (your own) Foo Corp. in Australia to have business meetings with Bar Corp (in US); or follow GP's advice and say you're on vacation.
Despite your visa waiver, you still have customs forms to fill out and they do ask whether or not you are on business or not.
They're very clear that having a waiver, or even a visa, is not a guarantee of entry into the US and that ultimately it's up to the CBP agents.
This is good advice, but of course it's pretty absurd that anyone has to take these steps to avoid the overly invasive US government.
It is absurd, but I think it's also common sense. I think it's a good assumption that airport security is not going to be that technically knowledgeable.
I wouldn't touch the topic of Bitcoin with a 10 foot pole around strangers, let alone people with the authority to deport me. I still can't explain it to my friends in a way without making it sound suspicious.
I wouldn't touch the topic of Bitcoin with a 10 foot pole around strangers, let alone people with the authority to deport me. I still can't explain it to my friends in a way without making it sound suspicious.
This is pretty much true of clearing customs in any other country. The reason we hear so much about the US is because it's a really big country.
(As an American, I hate crossing the UK border just as much as crossing the US border. What's the point of being in the EU if you aren't going to act like it? :)
(As an American, I hate crossing the UK border just as much as crossing the US border. What's the point of being in the EU if you aren't going to act like it? :)
The EU isn't Schengen, that's why.
But that's pretty much only because of the UK. There are a few countries that are supposed to be in the schengen area but aren't, a few countries that got in because it would have been impractical to keep them out, and the EU countries except the UK and Ireland (who are only out because of the UK).
What is absurd is that whether you can enter or not isn't down to any rule - it's down to the particular low paid moron on the particular desk.
I've been told my visa wasn't valid because there should be a blue copy instead of a red copy (he was wrong - as the INS eventually told me) I have been told that I'm only allowed so many visa waiver visits (wrong), that I can't visit my companies US office under visa waiver (wrong)
It's as if every time an airbus landed at a US airport it was upto the baggage handler to decide if it met FAA requirements
I've been told my visa wasn't valid because there should be a blue copy instead of a red copy (he was wrong - as the INS eventually told me) I have been told that I'm only allowed so many visa waiver visits (wrong), that I can't visit my companies US office under visa waiver (wrong)
It's as if every time an airbus landed at a US airport it was upto the baggage handler to decide if it met FAA requirements
Your account has been hellbanned.
On 3, Bruce Schneier has the following advice, which seems a little more sensible than wiping your devices in all cases:
http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/07/laptop_securit...
http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/07/laptop_securit...
Nothing in the story says he was flagged for deeper interviewing because of his involvement with Bitcoin. He told the agent he was saying for two months on $600 USD and, making an assumption here, no credit cards or anything else to supplement his stay.
How do we know he wasn't flagged under a different rule, such as "$100 a week in the US? Maybe he's taking a temporary job. Let's look further". Border agents hate finding out you've come under a tourist visa when really you've come to work.
How do we know he wasn't flagged under a different rule, such as "$100 a week in the US? Maybe he's taking a temporary job. Let's look further". Border agents hate finding out you've come under a tourist visa when really you've come to work.
I think you're confused about the definition of befuddle.
be·fud·dle
1. To confuse; perplex.
2. To stupefy with or as if with alcoholic drink.
Customs agents didn't flag him for his involvement in bitcoin; they didn't understand what it was and how he could possibly fund his trip with it.
be·fud·dle
1. To confuse; perplex.
2. To stupefy with or as if with alcoholic drink.
Customs agents didn't flag him for his involvement in bitcoin; they didn't understand what it was and how he could possibly fund his trip with it.
Or they didn't believe it was as good as cash, which is kind of a fair assessment. The guy he was going to meet might not have had the cash after all, and without a buyer, the Bitcoins have no intrinsic value. Saying that you have a suitcase full of collectable pins that you intend to trade with a guy for $1500 would probably not get you into the US either.
If you really had pins for trade, you'd have to declare them on the customs form (you'd be importing them), and selling them would likely count as commerce not valid for a tourist visa.
IIRC, he was on a Visa Waiver, so I don't think that applies.
You can only get a visa waiver if you fall within the requirements of a tourist visa, plus additional restrictions. And visa waiver entry still requires that you fill out a customs form.
If you are carrying more than $10,000 worth of securities or cash, you have to declare that. But there's absolutely nothing wrong with owning more than $10,000 worth of securities and liquidating them while you're visiting the US.
Here's the official government documentation on the matter:
http://www.cbp.gov/linkhandler/cgov/newsroom/publications/tr...
"If you receive in the US, currency ... exceeding $10,0000 at one time ... you must file Form 105."
Here's the official government documentation on the matter:
http://www.cbp.gov/linkhandler/cgov/newsroom/publications/tr...
"If you receive in the US, currency ... exceeding $10,0000 at one time ... you must file Form 105."
But everyone entering the United States has to fill out a customs declaration that lists the value of goods being brought into the country.
If you have $9,999 in your wallet and a bank account with $1,000,000,000,000, though, you don't have to mention cash on your customs declaration form.
What if you have US$10,000 in your bitcoin wallet on your laptop? Is that the same as US$10,000 worth of collectable pins in your suitcase, or the same as US$10,000 worth of code/IP on your laptop (which I can't imagine anyone declaring in customs)?
What if the bitcoin wallet isnt on your laptop but in the cloud?
Then it's the same as any other asset you have access to but isn't liquid, so it's not an interesting question when you're talking about how much you can take through customs without declaring it.
The visa waiver can be for tourism or for business. It has two checkboxes. When I visit the US, it's for work meetings, so I check business.
I DO know what bitcoin is, and I don't understand how he could possibly fund his trip with it. Doesn't seem like the top of the list for liquid assets, i.e. what you need when travelling. Part of their job is to make sure you can fund your trip. This guy couldn't, from a variety of reasonable interpretations.
You genuinely don't understand how he could possibly fund his trip with bitcoins?
Or are you exaggerating to make a point?
I think it is conceivable that he could fund his trip by bartering for the majority of his food and/or lodging using bitcoins. That is, it is a possibility that there are people in the United States who will accept bitcoins in return for providing food and/or lodging. And presumably as a "digital currency guru" he would be able to identify those people and effect payment with the agreed upon medium.
He even has a fallback option of cash if there is something he cannot acquire through the use of this bitcoins.
Or are you exaggerating to make a point?
I think it is conceivable that he could fund his trip by bartering for the majority of his food and/or lodging using bitcoins. That is, it is a possibility that there are people in the United States who will accept bitcoins in return for providing food and/or lodging. And presumably as a "digital currency guru" he would be able to identify those people and effect payment with the agreed upon medium.
He even has a fallback option of cash if there is something he cannot acquire through the use of this bitcoins.
Indeed, I exaggerate a bit. But I think @praptak above expresses the issue admirably. It's not a question of possibility so much as one of trust, and it's a customs agent's job to be wary.
There are places where you can sell your bitcoins for worthless pieces of paper with pictures of dead US politician on them.
It's the same process that makes pork bellies exchangeable for bits of German automotive engineering
It's the same process that makes pork bellies exchangeable for bits of German automotive engineering
I had cash in my office ready to exchange for Bitcoin when Nefario was to come to Seattle. It's no different than trading at MtGox.
Please take into account that this is a kind of story that the agents hear all the time. "Really, officer, I've got this cousin who owes me 3 grand and has the cash ready." To them it doesn't matter that the famous(#) Bitcoin is involved here.
(#) Among techies only and even here the discussions about it being a Ponzi scheme are lively.
(#) Among techies only and even here the discussions about it being a Ponzi scheme are lively.
The Visa Waiver program allows "business" travel to the US. I think Nefario's planned activities are allowed:
"Independent research, no salary/income from a US based source, or benefit to US institution."
"Independent research, no salary/income from a US based source, or benefit to US institution."
Indeed. The key to dealing with the US government, in my experience, is telling them what they want to hear. When asked, "how much money do you have access to", just do the BTC to USD conversion in your head and quote that number. They are not going to check your bank balance while you're in line at immigration.
The best part is, you are not even lying.
The best part is, you are not even lying.
I am most concerned about why they made copies of his iPhone and iPad. I'm not going to sit here and pick apart whether they had a "right" to do that -- it has long been abundantly clear that customs Gestapo can arbitrarily assign whatever rights they want to themselves, with full legislative and judicial blessing, in the name of security theater. But why? What did he do that earned this treatment?
This confused me as well. What possible reason could they have had to do that?
"Why not?"
That's probably the right answer, since they have the power to do this. But of course it is disturbing and unacceptable that they would violate someone's personal property with no crime or even a suspected crime having been committed (or even if there had been a crime committed). Unfortunately the only practical way to change this that I see is to wait for the US government to collapse due to its unsustainable financial policies.
I worked out the plan (well, mostly just said "okay") when Nefario suggested coming out to Seattle to try and launch a Bitcoin Incubator.
Knowing him a little (over skype), I'm not surprised things went badly at the border -- he's got a sort of sweet naive / anti-banking system mix in his persona; from what he told me, it was a tough and stressful spot -- interrogation tactics at the end of two+ days of travel..
I'm bummed, though. I was thinking that it would be excellent to have a physical location for bitcoin development in the US as a sort of center of gravity. mckoss was kicking in some office space at StartPad, what wasn't to like?
I'm not clear now what a good plan would be.
Knowing him a little (over skype), I'm not surprised things went badly at the border -- he's got a sort of sweet naive / anti-banking system mix in his persona; from what he told me, it was a tough and stressful spot -- interrogation tactics at the end of two+ days of travel..
I'm bummed, though. I was thinking that it would be excellent to have a physical location for bitcoin development in the US as a sort of center of gravity. mckoss was kicking in some office space at StartPad, what wasn't to like?
I'm not clear now what a good plan would be.
Maybe he can come back with dollars in his pocket this time?
I found the part about them copying data from his phone and iPad more troublesome than the whole bitcoin thing. Why would a self-described "cypherpunk" travel with non-encrypted digital devices, anyway?
I have a deep cynicism of anyone who describes themselves as a cypherpunk..
Having said that: an unencrypted phone/iPad is actually pretty sensible. You keep all the information you actually want to secure on a server safe at home, and have client software on your devices that can only access it after verifying the user (preferably using two-factor authentication, but even a password would be enough for this purpose)
Having said that: an unencrypted phone/iPad is actually pretty sensible. You keep all the information you actually want to secure on a server safe at home, and have client software on your devices that can only access it after verifying the user (preferably using two-factor authentication, but even a password would be enough for this purpose)
Just to be clear, the phone and iPad had been wiped before coming and had just enough information on them to complete the trip, i.e. a map to the startpad.org office, and the needed phone numbers, nothing else.
The U.S. has internet access, so upload everything to the cloud(encrypted) and then sync when you get there, which is what the plan was.
Also having an encrypted device is useless if they can hold you until you open it.
Finally I was talking to someone about this yesterday evening, they had their laptop taken off them for about 10 minutes by the border agents, in that time they installed a rookit on it to track keystrokes.
The U.S. has internet access, so upload everything to the cloud(encrypted) and then sync when you get there, which is what the plan was.
Also having an encrypted device is useless if they can hold you until you open it.
Finally I was talking to someone about this yesterday evening, they had their laptop taken off them for about 10 minutes by the border agents, in that time they installed a rookit on it to track keystrokes.
> ...had their laptop taken off them for about 10 minutes by the border agents, in that time they installed a rookit on it to track keystrokes.
Really? How certain is he that the keylogger was a recent addition? I have a hard time believing that an ordinary border agent is that technically competent, even if he just had to put in a usb device and select a few menu options.
Really? How certain is he that the keylogger was a recent addition? I have a hard time believing that an ordinary border agent is that technically competent, even if he just had to put in a usb device and select a few menu options.
Quite certain.
[deleted]
Immigration would also have been able to demand the password for his bitcoin wallet...
I was in Seattle a month ago for AMD Fusion conference.
Here my dialog with the Immigration Officer:
Re: "Dr. Nefario" - I can't believe he has no credit card.
I.O. - "What's the purpose of you visit?"
me - "I come to the AMD conference"
I.O. - "For how long do you visiting US"?
me - "8 days"
I.O. - "How many days is the conference?"
me - "3 days"
I.O. - "So why do you come for 8 days??"
Re: "Dr. Nefario" - I can't believe he has no credit card.
Here's a word everyone speaking with an immigration officer needs to know: sightseeing.
I wonder if the customs agents also had a problem with him trying to do work in the United States while here under the Visa Waiver Program?
As an Australian citizen who has recently traveled to the US under the Visa waiver program with the sole purpose of working (I was sent to the US by my employer), I can say pretty definitively that they dont have an issue with working as long as you have a return ticket (which they checked out in my case)
Work is definitely not allowed under the VWP, only "tourism and business": http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/without/without_1990.html#...
Maybe a trip when you work on behalf on a foreign employer counts as "business".
Maybe a trip when you work on behalf on a foreign employer counts as "business".
How would this be any different from bringing an equivalent value in "goods"? (whether they are digital or physical)
You would declare the goods you're importing (which brings with it its own set of issues when importing high-value goods). That said, it's unclear when or if bitcoins would be 'imported'. And it's also unclear whether, for example, someone bringing in $5000 worth of gold bullion via a passenger jet would be able to come in via visa waiver (they may classify selling it as a form of work).
Anyway, the visa waiver program is for ordinary tourists. Doing something way out of the ordinary like that is just asking them to deny your visa. At the very least, apply beforehand and explain the situation to the immigration agents.
Anyway, the visa waiver program is for ordinary tourists. Doing something way out of the ordinary like that is just asking them to deny your visa. At the very least, apply beforehand and explain the situation to the immigration agents.
The bitcoin is on a server, and is only "imported" once you download it.
Most goods that might be imported with the intent to trade for cash have more obvious (or, in the case of, say, gold or gemstones, more universally recognized) value.
His blog post itself had already been discussed before here, but it looks like the link is dead.
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2802257
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2802257
Wow! My Bitcoin Weekly interview with Doctor Nefario got mentioned in a news source.
Lucky lucky me!
Lucky lucky me!
[deleted](1)
Not surprising. They employ people with below average intelligence who are convinced that the U.S. is such a brilliant country and every single person they come into contact with is from such a terrible shithole that the only reason they could possibly be "visiting" the U.S. is because they plan to illegally overstay so that they may enjoy a much better life in the greatest country on Earth.
...And that's if you are white.
...And that's if you are white.
If not understanding how bitcoin works is your mark for "below average intelligence", then call me stupid.
Pretty sure you are overgeneralizing there.
Of course I am. But there is still some truth in there. Some CBP officers are friendly... many are not.
Upon entering the U.S. you effectively have no rights whatsoever. Whether or not you're allowed to enter the country is entirely at the discretion of the CBP officer you happen to get, and you have no right to appeal their decision. Run into one who's having a bad day and doesn't like the look of you and you're screwed.
Upon entering the U.S. you effectively have no rights whatsoever. Whether or not you're allowed to enter the country is entirely at the discretion of the CBP officer you happen to get, and you have no right to appeal their decision. Run into one who's having a bad day and doesn't like the look of you and you're screwed.
That's the awesome thing about sovereignty- we get to run background checks and see if someone's been hanging out in Pakistan Frontier Provinces or Yemen lately. If someone looks sketchy, we boot them out.
Coming to an expensive first world country with $600 for 2 weeks is pretty clearly sketchy.
CBPs make wrong decisions sometimes. This wasn't one of those times.
Coming to an expensive first world country with $600 for 2 weeks is pretty clearly sketchy.
CBPs make wrong decisions sometimes. This wasn't one of those times.
[deleted]
>Coming to an expensive first world country with $600 for 2 weeks is pretty clearly sketchy.
Bingo.
Entering the US with $5000 in Bitcoin would be equivalent to crossing the border with $5000 in Somaliland Shillings. They are both currencies that are bought and sold every day, but you can't take either to your neighborhood bank and convert them to USD. They have a very limited -- hell, even zero -- utility outside of circles that deal directly with them.
As such, CBP was rightly suspicious.
Bingo.
Entering the US with $5000 in Bitcoin would be equivalent to crossing the border with $5000 in Somaliland Shillings. They are both currencies that are bought and sold every day, but you can't take either to your neighborhood bank and convert them to USD. They have a very limited -- hell, even zero -- utility outside of circles that deal directly with them.
As such, CBP was rightly suspicious.
The reply of groby_b was wrongly killed.
> we get to run background checks and see if someone's been hanging out in Pakistan Frontier Provinces or Yemen lately.
You are overestimating the competence of the US government.
> If someone looks sketchy, we boot them out.
So dress nice and talk a lot of crap and they let you in.
>CBPs make wrong decisions sometimes. This wasn't one of those times.
Yay for security theater. I am glad someone feels safer.
You are overestimating the competence of the US government.
> If someone looks sketchy, we boot them out.
So dress nice and talk a lot of crap and they let you in.
>CBPs make wrong decisions sometimes. This wasn't one of those times.
Yay for security theater. I am glad someone feels safer.
1) You are there on a holiday. Telling them you are self employed and going to work in an office you are renting there is only asking for trouble. It confuses the hell out of them. You think where you do the work from doesn't matter, they think you need a visa. You lose.
2) If you are going for a conference, print the badge off before your flight and have it with you.
3) Email or upload all your files to dropbox/some server in a TrueCrypt container, and wipe all devices you will be crossing with, including your phone. What do you need them searching through your stuff for? Who knows what they will do with it. It's just asking for it.