Appsterdam: A Haven for Indie App Makers?(venturebeat.com)
venturebeat.com
Appsterdam: A Haven for Indie App Makers?
http://venturebeat.com/2011/06/27/appsterdam-a-haven-for-indie-developers/
13 comments
well, NL is pretty expensive to live in if you're earning USD; the tax burden is high if you're used to the US (though there's some offset because that tax includes what would be private medical insurance in the US); and people are forever grumbling about how hard it is to find places to live in Amsterdam. So maybe there's a reason for that.
The meeting on 6th July in their event planner is labelled as 'weekly' though that would mean there should be one in a couple days too (?)
The meeting on 6th July in their event planner is labelled as 'weekly' though that would mean there should be one in a couple days too (?)
I lived in The Netherlands (right outside Amsterdam) for 6 years. It is a nice country with a lot to do and see when it wasn't raining. But the Dutch tax the heck out of you on everything. On the flip side you get an 8% holiday bonus mandatory by the government but most companies already compensate this into your salary already.
If you are an entrepreneur I would recommend never to hire a fulltime employee and only hire contractors or be absolutely certain on who you hire. We had such big problems with a few employees and the government would not let us fire them. Our company had to pay them compensation and help find them a new job?!?! We also had another employee that became to stressed with the workload and the Dutch government told us we had to pay his salary until he returns for up to 2 years.
Finally the nail in the coffin for me was the weather. I couldn't take wind and rain for what seemed like months straight and summer lasting for sometimes only 1 month.
I wish Appsterdam success but for me I prefer lower taxes and better climate. Malta or Switzerland anyone?
If you are an entrepreneur I would recommend never to hire a fulltime employee and only hire contractors or be absolutely certain on who you hire. We had such big problems with a few employees and the government would not let us fire them. Our company had to pay them compensation and help find them a new job?!?! We also had another employee that became to stressed with the workload and the Dutch government told us we had to pay his salary until he returns for up to 2 years.
Finally the nail in the coffin for me was the weather. I couldn't take wind and rain for what seemed like months straight and summer lasting for sometimes only 1 month.
I wish Appsterdam success but for me I prefer lower taxes and better climate. Malta or Switzerland anyone?
About taxes: yes, they are high, very. But, if you play your cards right you can get the '30% regeling', which means 30% of your salary is tax free. IIRC you can get it for 4 years, and can be extended to 10.
The tax does NOT include medical insurance. You're supposed to take out your own "zorgverzekering" (i.e. medical insurance) from a private company, although you can get a subsidy to cover the expense ("zorgtoeslag") if you have a low income. What you may be thinking about is AWBZ, a national insurance scheme for which you do indeed pay the premiums along with your taxes and that covers various sorts of long-term care, mostly for the disabled and the mentally ill.
In general, for some reason Americans imagine that European countries always have government-run healthcare, presumably because that's what Britain has. In fact, most European countries have hybrid systems, with insurance provided by private companies or in some cases unions, and heavily regulated and subsidized by the government.
As for taxes: while taxes in NL are indeed extremely high, there are loopholes for foreign high skilled workers ("kennismigranten.") My cynical public choice economist interpretation is that the Dutch government realized that this group of people is more likely to vote with their feet, inducing a different Laffer curve, and as such the taxation rate maximizing public revenue is a bit lower in their case...
As for finding housing: very strict rent control laws depress rents way below market rates, which of course means that demand outstrips supply and some allocation mechanism other than price must be invented. In the Dutch case, most rental property subject to rent control is owned by semi-public nonprofits, and their allocation mechanism is almost universally a waiting list. In the case of Amsterdam, there are many districts for which a 7 year waiting list is not out of the ordinary. While there is a blanket exception from the strictest rent control laws for properties with a monthly rent above about 650 euros, the city of Amsterdam has the additional problem that an even larger share of rental properties is owned by said semi-public nonprofits ("woningcorporaties") than in other cities. As an outsider looking to get a"vrije sector" apartment (i.e. over 650 euros a month and thus exempt from the strictest rent control rules) you're in trouble. Consider living in Amstelveen, which has a lot of "vrije sector" housing because it is historically run by the liberal party, whereas Amsterdam is historically run by the labor party.
In general, for some reason Americans imagine that European countries always have government-run healthcare, presumably because that's what Britain has. In fact, most European countries have hybrid systems, with insurance provided by private companies or in some cases unions, and heavily regulated and subsidized by the government.
As for taxes: while taxes in NL are indeed extremely high, there are loopholes for foreign high skilled workers ("kennismigranten.") My cynical public choice economist interpretation is that the Dutch government realized that this group of people is more likely to vote with their feet, inducing a different Laffer curve, and as such the taxation rate maximizing public revenue is a bit lower in their case...
As for finding housing: very strict rent control laws depress rents way below market rates, which of course means that demand outstrips supply and some allocation mechanism other than price must be invented. In the Dutch case, most rental property subject to rent control is owned by semi-public nonprofits, and their allocation mechanism is almost universally a waiting list. In the case of Amsterdam, there are many districts for which a 7 year waiting list is not out of the ordinary. While there is a blanket exception from the strictest rent control laws for properties with a monthly rent above about 650 euros, the city of Amsterdam has the additional problem that an even larger share of rental properties is owned by said semi-public nonprofits ("woningcorporaties") than in other cities. As an outsider looking to get a"vrije sector" apartment (i.e. over 650 euros a month and thus exempt from the strictest rent control rules) you're in trouble. Consider living in Amstelveen, which has a lot of "vrije sector" housing because it is historically run by the liberal party, whereas Amsterdam is historically run by the labor party.
By the way, don't interpret the above as saying that Amsterdam, or Holland generally, is a horrible place.
Amsterdam is a cosmopolitan, small city -- a combination you won't find many other places. It's a college town, a tourist attraction, and a center of international commerce. The city center and indeed many of the residential neighborhoods are extremely beautiful, at least if you're into brick and trees. You'll find many decently trained people to hire, all of whom speak Dutch and English fluently as well as a bit of German and French. You'll find that official bureaucracy is comparatively efficient and honest. You'll find well maintained, if slightly underprovisioned, highways linking you to the rest of Europe, as well as comfortable, clean trains running to every significant town in the country twice an hour, and a very well designed and operated international airport with a train station in the basement.
Amsterdam is a cosmopolitan, small city -- a combination you won't find many other places. It's a college town, a tourist attraction, and a center of international commerce. The city center and indeed many of the residential neighborhoods are extremely beautiful, at least if you're into brick and trees. You'll find many decently trained people to hire, all of whom speak Dutch and English fluently as well as a bit of German and French. You'll find that official bureaucracy is comparatively efficient and honest. You'll find well maintained, if slightly underprovisioned, highways linking you to the rest of Europe, as well as comfortable, clean trains running to every significant town in the country twice an hour, and a very well designed and operated international airport with a train station in the basement.
I pay $100 a month for insurance and make $150 an hour contracting. I'm guessing that I would lose way more money in taxes by taking free healthcare in the Netherlands.
I doubt that $100 covers everything the Dutch system would. And, if you have/had any kind of illness (current or pre-existing), I sincerely doubt it.
I don't require much medical treatment, but if I did I would pay the first 5k, then insurance would pay 80% up to a max. Well worth it if you're young(ish) and healthy.
I wish there was a list like this for every city.
Ages ago I used to work for Employment Conditions Abroad, they have type of info, but I'm not sure how they sell it now (back then it was about selling CD-ROMs)
http://www.eca-international.com/
http://www.eca-international.com/
We are definitely going to provide all this info, just give us some time. Thank you for the feedback.
I'm pretty surprised that the topic of immigration and work visas hasn't come up in this thread (unless I missed it, if so I appologize).
- I for one am very curious about laws around foreigners coming to Amsterdam to work, securing work visas etc.? - How easy is it for an entrepreneur to move there i.e. no job offer, just moving and looking for contract or to start their own company?
- I for one am very curious about laws around foreigners coming to Amsterdam to work, securing work visas etc.? - How easy is it for an entrepreneur to move there i.e. no job offer, just moving and looking for contract or to start their own company?
> "The conclusion I came to was that Amsterdam was the most livable city in the world."
Before publicly stating that idea I would have waited until I had lived in the place for a few years.
I've been to Amsterdam and about 50 or so other cities in 30 countries(sorry for the humble brag here). I would never come to that conclusion for one reason: the winter weather.
I personally love the Northern California climate and would say San Francisco is the most livable city in the world(I've lived there for 2.5 years). But Amsterdam is a cool place and a great city. I could see how it'd be nice to live there if you don't mind crummy weather in the winter.
Before publicly stating that idea I would have waited until I had lived in the place for a few years.
I've been to Amsterdam and about 50 or so other cities in 30 countries(sorry for the humble brag here). I would never come to that conclusion for one reason: the winter weather.
I personally love the Northern California climate and would say San Francisco is the most livable city in the world(I've lived there for 2.5 years). But Amsterdam is a cool place and a great city. I could see how it'd be nice to live there if you don't mind crummy weather in the winter.
He was here this winter and I can tell you it was pretty cold, so he already experienced it.
From my personal point of view I can tell you that it's bearable. I biked all winter long and I can bear it. That's not the only way to move of course, and a lot of people take public transport during the winter, even though a good percentage still bikes.
Moreover I like much more changing seasons and I'm not really a fan of hot weather. That's why I love the summer here, it's more like a long spring.
Anyway, weather really comes down to personal preferences. I know people here that don't like the weather and others that live with it very well. Here I learned not to care that much about the weather, and it works for me.
From my personal point of view I can tell you that it's bearable. I biked all winter long and I can bear it. That's not the only way to move of course, and a lot of people take public transport during the winter, even though a good percentage still bikes.
Moreover I like much more changing seasons and I'm not really a fan of hot weather. That's why I love the summer here, it's more like a long spring.
Anyway, weather really comes down to personal preferences. I know people here that don't like the weather and others that live with it very well. Here I learned not to care that much about the weather, and it works for me.
> Anyway, weather really comes down to personal preferences.
Exactly. I'm glad there are people like you that enjoy the winters(my family in Boston does too--to a degree). Otherwise everyone would move to places like California and it'd be pretty hard to live!
Exactly. I'm glad there are people like you that enjoy the winters(my family in Boston does too--to a degree). Otherwise everyone would move to places like California and it'd be pretty hard to live!
The guy in the article is using Amsterdam too much as the reason for Appsterdam; in the end the _community_ will make it what it is, whether it's the best city or not won't matter if the community is a success.
That being said Amsterdam has enough of the ingredients to make that happen, and I think it's a wonderful initiative, keep it going!
That being said Amsterdam has enough of the ingredients to make that happen, and I think it's a wonderful initiative, keep it going!
There were some interesting discussions here on hacker news before about alternatives for startups in Europe [1], [2].
I don't quite understand the part about Berlin, though - why not raise a family in Berlin (especially if the alternative is not some rural area but other large cities)? I found the side-stab against Ireland a little weird as well, wouldn't have considered Dublin to be "in the middle of nowhere", or was that about attracting developers to join your startup in Dublin being hard? (Never tried that, could well be the case). The last time I was in Amsterdam 10 years ago I thought it would be a nice place to live, but I feel the same about Ireland and I am living in Berlin right now, so ... )
To put it short: I think all 4 cities are worth taking into account and it depends a lot on your particular situation. Seeing startup funds like this pop up is awesome and I hope more places in Europe will follow :°)
[1] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1565375
[2] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2573513 (link-baity title though)
I don't quite understand the part about Berlin, though - why not raise a family in Berlin (especially if the alternative is not some rural area but other large cities)? I found the side-stab against Ireland a little weird as well, wouldn't have considered Dublin to be "in the middle of nowhere", or was that about attracting developers to join your startup in Dublin being hard? (Never tried that, could well be the case). The last time I was in Amsterdam 10 years ago I thought it would be a nice place to live, but I feel the same about Ireland and I am living in Berlin right now, so ... )
To put it short: I think all 4 cities are worth taking into account and it depends a lot on your particular situation. Seeing startup funds like this pop up is awesome and I hope more places in Europe will follow :°)
[1] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1565375
[2] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2573513 (link-baity title though)
I think the point about Dublin is that it is a bit further away if you are in mainland Europe. It's not that far though, and it is closer to the USA.
I myself had no health insurance and no way of getting health insurance as a self-employed person
I'm self employed. It wasn't that hard to get health insurance. I guess YMMV.
I'm self employed. It wasn't that hard to get health insurance. I guess YMMV.
In NL? You're required by law to have health insurance and the insurance companies are required to give it to you. Assuming you're there legally.
It is interesting that venturebeat stories about Appsterdam are making it to the front page this week.
A few weeks ago, I submitted the original Appsterdam blog post to HN http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2476430
That post was killed within minutes :)
A few weeks ago, I submitted the original Appsterdam blog post to HN http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2476430
That post was killed within minutes :)
What about the language barrier? Is English prominent enough in Amsterdam to easily get through everyday interactions or would you need to learn an entirely new language in order to truly enjoy the city?
Yes, to the point that learning Dutch on the fly is hard because nobody will try to speak it with you when they are so good with English.
If you approach someone in Dutch speaking with a (non-middle eastern) accent, people will switch to English without asking. It's horribly annoying really, learning the language (and thus really picking up the oh so important subtleties in professional and private life) is made really difficult this way.
People often explain it as kindness, but it's really just plain rude laziness: for many Dutch people, speaking slow and clear Dutch requires a lot more energy than upspeed English. Let alone listening to and trying to understand broken Dutch.
People often explain it as kindness, but it's really just plain rude laziness: for many Dutch people, speaking slow and clear Dutch requires a lot more energy than upspeed English. Let alone listening to and trying to understand broken Dutch.
I wouldn't call it rudeness, it's more a habit, you might find it rude, but that is your interpretation. Holland is a really small country that survives by trading with other countries. The countries around it are all much bigger and tend to want to speak their own language (German, French, English) so it has become common that the Dutch person adapts instead of forcing the other person to speak Dutch.
Though funnily enough I will (during the summer) quite often get addressed in German when I enter a shop, at which point I haven't even said anything yet nor do I speak German.
Though funnily enough I will (during the summer) quite often get addressed in German when I enter a shop, at which point I haven't even said anything yet nor do I speak German.
Happens to me always at the Dutch Coast. Somehow I look a bit German.
I'm sorry if you consider it rude, but have you considered the people you're speaking to may have something better to do than to spend their time teaching you Dutch, or alternatively, may just believe you actually want to discuss the subject at hand rather than practice your Dutch?
If you want people to take the time and trouble to speak Dutch, consider asking them, preferably in a context without time constraints.
If you want people to take the time and trouble to speak Dutch, consider asking them, preferably in a context without time constraints.
Well, I've never looked at it that way. Next time I will be more thoughtfull.
yep, the broken-dutch vs clear-english appears to be my experience too - if I'm in the right mood, I'll tease dutch people by speaking full speed english around them when they don't want to speak dutch ;)
I don't really think it's rude. It's sort of the opposite of Japan, where lots of people study English, but are too shy to speak it openly. I'm sure it's more complicated than that in both cases.
Rude? Excuse me? How is it my job as a Dutch person to teach you my language?
edit: oh Skrebbel, I see now it's you and I know you're Dutch. Point still stands though :)
edit: oh Skrebbel, I see now it's you and I know you're Dutch. Point still stands though :)
Typical anecdote in that respect: we have a German and a Greek developer on our team in Amsterdam. They practice Dutch by speaking it to each other, because everyone else will automatically switch to English.
Amsterdam is absolutely english friendly. I have been living here for more than one year and I still don't know dutch. I know people who have been living here for years without learning the local language.
Everybody everywhere speaks english: shops, public transport, you name it. Even children, since the TV shows are in english with subtitles. Movies at the cinema are not dubbed and have subtitles as well.
Everybody everywhere speaks english: shops, public transport, you name it. Even children, since the TV shows are in english with subtitles. Movies at the cinema are not dubbed and have subtitles as well.
As the umpteen other comments say, yes: Amsterdam is extremely English friendly.
That said, outside of Amsterdam, some rudimentary Dutch helps a lot, especially if you're using public transport. Also, even just trying will automatically garner you a little respect with the locals, they're a bit sick of people who don't even try. ;)
That said, outside of Amsterdam, some rudimentary Dutch helps a lot, especially if you're using public transport. Also, even just trying will automatically garner you a little respect with the locals, they're a bit sick of people who don't even try. ;)
You can survive with English in Amsterdam and the Netherlands as well. Children learn english from the age of 9-10, TV programs are typically not dubbed so the odds are that you can have conversations in English with everyone you encounter.
I've never lived in Amsterdam, but I have spent time there as a tourist (and not in the Center, where you expect people to interact with tourists all day long). Everyone spoke excellent English, even older and crustier looking Dutch whose English was obviously rusty.
The only time I needed to use any of the Dutch I had learned before coming was with some immigrants for whom English would be their third language.
The only time I needed to use any of the Dutch I had learned before coming was with some immigrants for whom English would be their third language.
Even if you try to learn dutch, you won't easily find people who want to speak it too you, tbh. (at least that's my experience after a few years)
The only barrier you will encounter if you actually want to settle there is dealing with paperwork. Companies and official authorities will gladly help you in English, but the paperwork is in Dutch. People often seem to forget the implications of that tiny detail when they move here.
I have lived here for one here, I bought a house and opened a one-man company. I don't speak dutch at all.
Paperwork is in dutch, but you get plenty of help everywhere.
Paperwork is in dutch, but you get plenty of help everywhere.
What I've noticed during meetups is that if there is even one non-Dutch speaker in the audience everyone switches to English. Amsterdam is very touristic and I think you won't miss out on anything in Amsterdam without knowing our native language.
Pfff, Appsterdam - I say Apperlin http://twitter.com/#!/fractality/status/85371377254809600
Join the movement to make Berlin the new Sillicon Valley.
Join the movement to make Berlin the new Sillicon Valley.
From the article:
“I became disillusioned with the way the United States was going in general. I myself had no health insurance and no way of getting health insurance as a self-employed person.”
Uh...no way of getting health insurance? How about PAYING for it? I hardly make any money, but I can still afford the $120/month I pay for my health insurance. Even if you go to a country like Europe with socialized healthcare, you are still paying for it if you are making money, via taxes. In fact, you are paying MORE for it since you are paying for your health insurance plus insurance for all of the unemployed. Taxes go over 50 percent of income in many European countries. In other words, there is no such thing as "free" healthcare - someone always pays for it.
“I became disillusioned with the way the United States was going in general. I myself had no health insurance and no way of getting health insurance as a self-employed person.”
Uh...no way of getting health insurance? How about PAYING for it? I hardly make any money, but I can still afford the $120/month I pay for my health insurance. Even if you go to a country like Europe with socialized healthcare, you are still paying for it if you are making money, via taxes. In fact, you are paying MORE for it since you are paying for your health insurance plus insurance for all of the unemployed. Taxes go over 50 percent of income in many European countries. In other words, there is no such thing as "free" healthcare - someone always pays for it.
I am a healthy 24 year old male, no health problems in any way. I was quoted health insurance in an attempt to find it after college, the cheapest plan was $690/month.
[deleted]
You need to look harder.
Look harder? What does that mean? There are what... 6 health insurance providers per state? They all decide you are expensive, sucks to be you....
[deleted]
You seem to think paying for insurance for the unemployed is negative...and it probably is, until you're unemployed yourself. It's not so much about wether you're paying it yourself, or via taxes, but it's about social security. After all, you need help most in times you can't afford it.
now I've made two comments on this thread which make amsterdam sound kinda negative; so now I feel that I have to say that, no no amsterdam is a cool place to live ;)
Like:
- Average cost of living is X
- Developers can earn X-Z salary
- Tax burden for companies is X
- You can find apartments in the range of X-Y at site Z
- X companies joined this initiative and are hiring
- There are weekly meetups at Bar X,Y,Z at time A
- Successful companies in Amsterdam include X,Y,Z they are all hanging out at location A