Ask HN: Should I give up on FAANG as a low IQ late 30s engineer?
23 comments
Give up on FANG's and pick a B-list company that will pay 85-90% of what a FANG will. Not trying to diminish your goal, but it'll basically meet your goal with less input (higher ROI). Your income will be nearly as good, you'll be able to work on challenging problems, and it's not as hard to get in. You mentioned not much friends/family time, but it's good to have balance, don't put all your energy exclusively into your career.
Also, if you're good enough to score interviews at FANGs, don't diminish yourself. That's more than half the battle.
Spoken as someone who's been rejected by Apple, Microsoft, and Google -- and now I'm making nearly $250k. I don't have a picture-perfect resume but I am damn proud of myself.
Also, if you're good enough to score interviews at FANGs, don't diminish yourself. That's more than half the battle.
Spoken as someone who's been rejected by Apple, Microsoft, and Google -- and now I'm making nearly $250k. I don't have a picture-perfect resume but I am damn proud of myself.
What website did you used to find these good B list companies?
They're publicly traded companies. Sort the S&P 500 or NASDAQ and work your way down by market cap. You could go for pre-IPO companies, but that stock should be valued at $0, so it's less competitive with the FANGs (the liquidity event could pan out, or it could never occur, etc).
My current $LARGE_CO is publicly traded with a single-digit billion market cap.
My current $LARGE_CO is publicly traded with a single-digit billion market cap.
I think you need focused preparation. I have found that intense prep of a few weeks generally gets you comfortable with the basics. Then you have the momentum you need to start building up your skills on the harder questions.
Bitwise operations are not representative of interview questions, neither is formally solving Recurrence Relations (that is more of an academic algorithm class thing, where the focus is on formal proofs of asymptotic complexity). DP questions are rarely asked during screening, but will likely get asked in advanced rounds of interviews.
You do not need to go to a bootcamp for interviews, but you need a focused plan and you need to stick to it for several weeks at the very least. Also make sure to interview promiscuously at your non-target companies before you take a stab at the FAANG-level companies. Interviewing is a skill and gets better with practice.
For System Design interviews, I do not have much to say except that they are used as a gauge of your seniority, particularly if the person doing the interviewing is more experienced than you. It's useful to know some things in this area but it's much more important to be very comfortable in the coding department.
For coding, I suggest this: - Know your Data Structures and be able to implement them: - Linked Lists - Stacks - Queues - Hash Tables - Binary Trees, Binary Search Trees, and Heaps - Tries - Graphs (Adjacency List and Matrix representations) - Libraries for the above in your language (Collections in Java, Containers/STL in C++, for example).
- Do simple problems in these categories and become expert in them: - Linked Lists - Array problems - Binary Trees/Binary Search Trees (These are great for learning recursion) - Backtracking (These are also great for learning recursion) - Sorting - Graphs Problems (search, connected components etc.) - Dynamic Programming
- Focus on techniques, not specific problems (save for the basics above. You should know how to do simple problems in the above categories cold).
This level will prepare you for a good coding interview at any company thats below the FAANG-level. For the FAANGs, you must do harder problems, but should also know how to do them cold. That part is hard and somewhat open-ended. The basics I have mentioned above can be done with around 4-6 weeks of intense prep.
Bitwise operations are not representative of interview questions, neither is formally solving Recurrence Relations (that is more of an academic algorithm class thing, where the focus is on formal proofs of asymptotic complexity). DP questions are rarely asked during screening, but will likely get asked in advanced rounds of interviews.
You do not need to go to a bootcamp for interviews, but you need a focused plan and you need to stick to it for several weeks at the very least. Also make sure to interview promiscuously at your non-target companies before you take a stab at the FAANG-level companies. Interviewing is a skill and gets better with practice.
For System Design interviews, I do not have much to say except that they are used as a gauge of your seniority, particularly if the person doing the interviewing is more experienced than you. It's useful to know some things in this area but it's much more important to be very comfortable in the coding department.
For coding, I suggest this: - Know your Data Structures and be able to implement them: - Linked Lists - Stacks - Queues - Hash Tables - Binary Trees, Binary Search Trees, and Heaps - Tries - Graphs (Adjacency List and Matrix representations) - Libraries for the above in your language (Collections in Java, Containers/STL in C++, for example).
- Do simple problems in these categories and become expert in them: - Linked Lists - Array problems - Binary Trees/Binary Search Trees (These are great for learning recursion) - Backtracking (These are also great for learning recursion) - Sorting - Graphs Problems (search, connected components etc.) - Dynamic Programming
- Focus on techniques, not specific problems (save for the basics above. You should know how to do simple problems in the above categories cold).
This level will prepare you for a good coding interview at any company thats below the FAANG-level. For the FAANGs, you must do harder problems, but should also know how to do them cold. That part is hard and somewhat open-ended. The basics I have mentioned above can be done with around 4-6 weeks of intense prep.
It’s completely pointless to stress over. You can have a lucrative and happy career outside the FAANGs. Your friends will still hang out with you, and your children and grandchildren will still love you.
Keep in mind it might not even be a technical skills issue. These companies are big on “culture fit” and you even need the right political views these days.
Counterpoint: FAANG companies don’t ask about your political views in job interviews. If you’re volunteering them, you’re doing it wrong.
That’s not a FAANG company, but ok. You can write off your contempt for diversity, inclusion, etc. as a political view but it says more about you as a person. You’re likely difficult to work with and won’t treat your coworkers with respect. Why would anyone put up with that?
I think you made a lot of assumptions here which will be most likely wrong about most people.
The whole diversity thing is extremely one-sided and biased and very much undiverse in nature. mrfusion made a very valid point in this context.
The whole diversity thing is extremely one-sided and biased and very much undiverse in nature. mrfusion made a very valid point in this context.
> The whole diversity thing is extremely one-sided and biased and very much undiverse in nature.
Can you elaborate?
Can you elaborate?
Its sole focus is on skin colour or how a person "identifies". Other factors are completely left out, e.g. the rampant ageism in the industry and that's just one factor not the only.
Yeah I can see why you have a hard time hiding your “political views”, as you call them.
Oh, so you were referring to my person?
In that case any further discussion is probably pointless as you seem to resort to personal attacks and at that point you are close to Godwin.
I'd return the compliment though, as you do not seem to have comprehended what point I - or for that matter mrfusion or the mentioned article - was trying to make but you seem to be too entrapped in your ideology.
Fair enough </thread>
If you completely change your response after my reply you of course distort the context once more.
In that case any further discussion is probably pointless as you seem to resort to personal attacks and at that point you are close to Godwin.
I'd return the compliment though, as you do not seem to have comprehended what point I - or for that matter mrfusion or the mentioned article - was trying to make but you seem to be too entrapped in your ideology.
Fair enough </thread>
If you completely change your response after my reply you of course distort the context once more.
So much about "diversity".
//I really need the money and security plus having faang in my resume opens doors, i have seen it in my current organisation where they hired ex faang tech leads and they are considered the best of the best by everyone. These are the only reasons I am willing to put up with this.//
Basically you want Ex-FAANG stamp on your profile. Have you thought through this? Can you try five why questions and get to the bottom of your REAL desire in life? There is youtube Technical Lead where guy cries I am Ex-Facebook, Ex-Google and Ex-Husband etc. Lot of Exs. My point is moon has two sides. One is bright and another is you know. By the way you need start working on writing to clear your mind and bring more critical thinking of your own. Do not follow popular opinion. Even take this comment not on face value. I know how you feel. I struggle same kind of stuff - just mine is related to girls. Any way good luck there.
Basically you want Ex-FAANG stamp on your profile. Have you thought through this? Can you try five why questions and get to the bottom of your REAL desire in life? There is youtube Technical Lead where guy cries I am Ex-Facebook, Ex-Google and Ex-Husband etc. Lot of Exs. My point is moon has two sides. One is bright and another is you know. By the way you need start working on writing to clear your mind and bring more critical thinking of your own. Do not follow popular opinion. Even take this comment not on face value. I know how you feel. I struggle same kind of stuff - just mine is related to girls. Any way good luck there.
Settle for class b company instead with more autonomy and create additional cash flows on the side.
Fuck prestige, man. Get money.
https://wallstreetplayboys.com/watch-the-company-man-give-aw...
Fuck prestige, man. Get money.
https://wallstreetplayboys.com/watch-the-company-man-give-aw...
> i have social anxiety and find it really hard to articulate my thought process as I solve problems in a more instinctual way (i.e does this feel right or not?) I need to look up stuff all the time as my memory is not very good as well.
See if you have ADHD. I know a handful of folks with > 140 IQ who cannot get through an interview (or actual work for that matter) without their meds. Same social-anxiety, intuitive thinking that is difficult to tether to articulation.
See if you have ADHD. I know a handful of folks with > 140 IQ who cannot get through an interview (or actual work for that matter) without their meds. Same social-anxiety, intuitive thinking that is difficult to tether to articulation.
Well, once you get hooked on amphetamines, the addiction actually makes it impossible to do work without taking a dose.
It’s a problem that builds and builds, so don’t be surprised if those people simply have high tolerance to their medication now and are fully dependent.
To your point, speed can help you do Leetcode for sure (it’s speed after all). Is it worth it? Yes, since the money involved is significant. But it is also a drug, and if you get addicted, you will have a life long problem (especially when you need higher and higher dose to get the same effect, and when you’ve forgotten basic discipline and work ethic without the help of the drug). I will not mention the insane side effects around insomnia and paranoia. Dependence will also act as jet fuel to any type of imposter syndrome you have (you will feel vulnerable without it, and question the validity of your success, reality will be a never-ending existential crisis).
But hey, a 40 dollar script could get you a 200k salary, so who is anyone to judge. I just wanted to throw the counter argument out there to the casual uptake of amphetamines.
But I will add(pun?) this, you will be at a disadvantage against those that use this drug to make it in tech (or medical). It’s basically our steroids, and being a clean athlete will be harder.
It’s a problem that builds and builds, so don’t be surprised if those people simply have high tolerance to their medication now and are fully dependent.
To your point, speed can help you do Leetcode for sure (it’s speed after all). Is it worth it? Yes, since the money involved is significant. But it is also a drug, and if you get addicted, you will have a life long problem (especially when you need higher and higher dose to get the same effect, and when you’ve forgotten basic discipline and work ethic without the help of the drug). I will not mention the insane side effects around insomnia and paranoia. Dependence will also act as jet fuel to any type of imposter syndrome you have (you will feel vulnerable without it, and question the validity of your success, reality will be a never-ending existential crisis).
But hey, a 40 dollar script could get you a 200k salary, so who is anyone to judge. I just wanted to throw the counter argument out there to the casual uptake of amphetamines.
But I will add(pun?) this, you will be at a disadvantage against those that use this drug to make it in tech (or medical). It’s basically our steroids, and being a clean athlete will be harder.
I'm pretty sure I did the bootcamp you're thinking of because it was around the same cost.
I'd say it's 100% worth it. I'm also in my late 30's. 4 years ago I failed to pass the phone screen with F and G (and failed 7 out of 8 onsites with other companies) but this time around I passed the hiring committee at G. I ended up declining for a pre-IPO startup though.
I had the same issues as you last time around. I struggled with System Design because I had no clue what the end goal was. It's silly that you're being asked to "design" systems in 45 minutes that have taken teams months or years to build.
The bootcamp really helped me with my anxiety. I ended up doing about 10 mock interviews which really helped calm my nerves during real interviews because I knew what to expect. I think that's where social anxiety comes from - when you don't really know what to expect.
I also used a Space Repetition Software program to help me with memorization.
If you post your email, I can email you if you want to learn more about my experiences with it and answer any specific questions you have.
I'd say it's 100% worth it. I'm also in my late 30's. 4 years ago I failed to pass the phone screen with F and G (and failed 7 out of 8 onsites with other companies) but this time around I passed the hiring committee at G. I ended up declining for a pre-IPO startup though.
I had the same issues as you last time around. I struggled with System Design because I had no clue what the end goal was. It's silly that you're being asked to "design" systems in 45 minutes that have taken teams months or years to build.
The bootcamp really helped me with my anxiety. I ended up doing about 10 mock interviews which really helped calm my nerves during real interviews because I knew what to expect. I think that's where social anxiety comes from - when you don't really know what to expect.
I also used a Space Repetition Software program to help me with memorization.
If you post your email, I can email you if you want to learn more about my experiences with it and answer any specific questions you have.
You're not being asked to design a system in 45 mins. You're being asked to regurgitate Martin Kleppmann's book.
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You're unlikely to get there in a leap. Most people make goals in increments and you self identify as unlikely to get the inferential leap outcome.
That said, I didn't make the bar either and I sought lower entry bar goals to achieve a state of reasonable contentment.
"Aim high" is great, but it has to be tempered with realism. Aim plausibly high. Aim plausible and then seek a goal just beyond.
I do not think you should sink $6k into a boot camp. I think you should seek coding clubs in a more social space and build a network. Find people who are interested in discussing some aspect of the problem surface, and avoid the unpleasant supercilious ones. Keep your job, try to improve in it, and find an increment role to move up in.
Also, IQ is mostly bunkum. Just ignore it. Being neurodiverse is not bunkum. Understanding your own personality is good.
That said, I didn't make the bar either and I sought lower entry bar goals to achieve a state of reasonable contentment.
"Aim high" is great, but it has to be tempered with realism. Aim plausibly high. Aim plausible and then seek a goal just beyond.
I do not think you should sink $6k into a boot camp. I think you should seek coding clubs in a more social space and build a network. Find people who are interested in discussing some aspect of the problem surface, and avoid the unpleasant supercilious ones. Keep your job, try to improve in it, and find an increment role to move up in.
Also, IQ is mostly bunkum. Just ignore it. Being neurodiverse is not bunkum. Understanding your own personality is good.
You're not low iq, friend. You sound pretty intelligent and driven. They're not easy tests and everyone that makes them look easy has done a ton of preparation. People spend 4 years in university to get through + countless nights practicing leetcode to ace those tests.
You're your worst critic by far. Maybe you are expecting too much too soon and panicking that it has not arrived yet. Maybe there is a path to FAANG that looks different then you think. And, I would ask you also, why FAANG, not any other great job?
You're your worst critic by far. Maybe you are expecting too much too soon and panicking that it has not arrived yet. Maybe there is a path to FAANG that looks different then you think. And, I would ask you also, why FAANG, not any other great job?
> Does anyone have any similar stories of old mediocre developers getting to faang? Is there a recommended pathway for people in this situation?
Why do you want to be mediocre and successful at the same time? This is really, really difficult.
A pathway for that would mean to scam, con or hack the admission process/interviewers. And to hack Google/Facebook you need to be smarter than the current engineers. Which would get you admitted.
Why do you want to be mediocre and successful at the same time? This is really, really difficult.
A pathway for that would mean to scam, con or hack the admission process/interviewers. And to hack Google/Facebook you need to be smarter than the current engineers. Which would get you admitted.
Figure out what you're good at and get a job doing that.
It doesn't sound like SWE is the right career for you. There are tons of opportunities for people who are tech-savvy but not hardcore developers. It's a lot more likely that one of those jobs will make you a lot happier and fulfilled.
Maybe you're good at communicating or have domain expertise. You can work in tech sales, product management, tech marketing, etc.
It doesn't sound like SWE is the right career for you. There are tons of opportunities for people who are tech-savvy but not hardcore developers. It's a lot more likely that one of those jobs will make you a lot happier and fulfilled.
Maybe you're good at communicating or have domain expertise. You can work in tech sales, product management, tech marketing, etc.
People have very successful programming careers, without being able to apply dynamic programming to a made up problem which very rarely turns up in real world code.
Being good at writing tests, writing clear code and DDD is far more useful than dp for most companies problems.
Being good at writing tests, writing clear code and DDD is far more useful than dp for most companies problems.
Or just do coding in a place like a bank, where domain knowledge (that you build up over years) is very highly valued, as the problems (requirements) are often hopelessly complicated and anyone who shows signs of understanding them is valuable. The act of coding itself is often almost an afterthought.
Why do you necessarily want to work at a FAANG company? There are plenty of other fine organizations that pay reasonably well and don't have such a high interview bar.
Perhaps you should consider a non-tech company (e.g. retail, healthcare, real estate, hospitality et cetera) that uses technology versus creates technology. The bar will be lower and the pay should be decent but not exceptional.
Perhaps you should consider a non-tech company (e.g. retail, healthcare, real estate, hospitality et cetera) that uses technology versus creates technology. The bar will be lower and the pay should be decent but not exceptional.
Maybe, while having high intelligence is necessary to really understand those problems and how to approach them, a lot of the resources around these interviews seem to involve simply memorizing the solutions to the most common problems.
To be fair, these also seem to be targeted towards entry level positions, I can;t say how that strategy would assist someone trying to get in at another level.
To be fair, these also seem to be targeted towards entry level positions, I can;t say how that strategy would assist someone trying to get in at another level.
You are asked these things no matter you level in FAANG interviews. You need high enough intelligence to understand how to solve these problems if you are shown a solution, but I do not think you need much more intelligence than that to do well in a FAANG interview. It's more about how fluent you are given that you have already done some prep.
I dont have an answer to your question but as there are here people with a lot of knowledge will like to add another question:
How do I learn not to over-engineer solutions?
This is the feedback that I received on a couple of homeworks from some non-FAANG companies.
What can I read or what to learn to have this skill of doing simple solutions?
How do I learn not to over-engineer solutions?
This is the feedback that I received on a couple of homeworks from some non-FAANG companies.
What can I read or what to learn to have this skill of doing simple solutions?
We live in a copy-cat world. Every company uses Leetcode now from my experience. I’m talking down to shitty digital agencies (yep, got Leetcoded for that).
You can’t give up because there is simply no other choice. There is nothing else to do but continue walking through the darkness.
You can’t give up because there is simply no other choice. There is nothing else to do but continue walking through the darkness.
I just copy and paste stuff from stackoverflow and it works for me.
Nothing additional to add here except want to cheer you on. Hang in there for whatever goal or path you visualize and decide to pursue in life. Wishing you well!
If you struggle, it'll be a struggle everyday once you get into one of those corporations.
Listen to yourself.
Listen to yourself.
No. Not really. I suck at all these FAANG interview questions. I think I barely passed my Google interview. And I still got promoted L5->L6 after only 2 years at Google.
I think that 99% of the interview questions are overkill and don't reflect the actual demands of the job, or the metrics by which you'll be measured. If you're a hard worker, a team player, and write decent code, you'll probably be fine once you get your foot in the door.
And yes, having Google on your resume opens doors.
I think that 99% of the interview questions are overkill and don't reflect the actual demands of the job, or the metrics by which you'll be measured. If you're a hard worker, a team player, and write decent code, you'll probably be fine once you get your foot in the door.
And yes, having Google on your resume opens doors.
I agree with the above comment and disagree with posters saying that the OP will struggle in a FANG. (They may indeed struggle, but that is not a certainty ;)
Answering interview questions correctly within a short time frame is the hardest part - actual work is way easier for the most part.
Answering interview questions correctly within a short time frame is the hardest part - actual work is way easier for the most part.
+1 to this. Given what the original poster has said, they are probably going to get ground to bits even if they do get into a FAANG. It requires both raw technical ability and considerable social and political skills to survive because everybody there is jockeying to climb to the next level. A number of the FAANGs are also ruthless about culling people who aren't succeeding, at least until a certain promotion level is reached.
If you want to pass the interview, get an adderall script. You will crush leetcode.
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Success is 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration.
Getting into FAANG is hard age, and IQ aren't related. I know many engineers tried several times (more than 5 times) to get there.
understanding why that is happening is the most efficient way to help yourself to get your dream job. here are some points that you have to consider:
Are you developing in your current job? if not you should quit and work on something that gonna add to you.
Is your current job/experience wild in too many things? Try to deep dive into one area.
Are you in good mental health? be prepared mentally it is tough to handle FAANG interviews and failures.
Are you well prepared for the FAANG interview process? practicing every single stage and showing confidence is important.
Lastly, I found the (5 easy, 3 medium, 2 hard ) approach for each leetcode topic is really helpful.
Getting into FAANG is hard age, and IQ aren't related. I know many engineers tried several times (more than 5 times) to get there.
understanding why that is happening is the most efficient way to help yourself to get your dream job. here are some points that you have to consider:
Are you developing in your current job? if not you should quit and work on something that gonna add to you.
Is your current job/experience wild in too many things? Try to deep dive into one area.
Are you in good mental health? be prepared mentally it is tough to handle FAANG interviews and failures.
Are you well prepared for the FAANG interview process? practicing every single stage and showing confidence is important.
Lastly, I found the (5 easy, 3 medium, 2 hard ) approach for each leetcode topic is really helpful.
I have tried memorising solutions, patterns and grinding problems over and over. I have gone through a few algorithms books (CLRS) but i find the maths and proofs really hard.
Bitwise, Recurrence relations and DP give me nightmares so do maze traversal and flood filling problems, I am astonished people can actually get through these interviews the way FAANG demands nowadays (perfect solution to leetcode HARD on a whiteboard, while explaining your thought process outloud, hints given are counted against you).
This is pure insanity to me, i am slow, my iq is not that high, i have social anxiety and find it really hard to articulate my thought process as I solve problems in a more instinctual way (i.e does this feel right or not?) I need to look up stuff all the time as my memory is not very good as well.
Then there's the system design rounds where they expect you to come up with a quad tree and know every single cache hit, memory and cpu cost by heart.
I am considering joining a bootcamp for interviews but it is 6k and I am not sure if its worth it for me given my limitations.
I really need the money and security plus having faang in my resume opens doors, i have seen it in my current organisation where they hired ex faang tech leads and they are considered the best of the best by everyone. These are the only reasons I am willing to put up with this.
Is it a good idea for me to continue to put effort into this? I only have my full time job but have no friends or family so i have a lot of spare time to put into this.
Does anyone have any similar stories of old mediocre developers getting to faang? Is there a recommended pathway for people in this situation?
Thanks in advance.