Steam Lisp(loper-os.org)
loper-os.org
Steam Lisp
http://www.loper-os.org/?p=388
16 comments
The dominant themes are bilious and scornful attacks on other's work, or lamentations about the sad state of software today. He claims to be producing a Lisp-based operating system. Curious to see his progress, I checked the source repository, to find that it only contains a README indignantly protesting the the treatment he's received from others.
Funny -- I wrote something more polite but similar to this in 2010 about another post of his: http://jseliger.com/2010/09/30/computers-and-network-effects... .
Funny -- I wrote something more polite but similar to this in 2010 about another post of his: http://jseliger.com/2010/09/30/computers-and-network-effects... .
All innovators are unconventional.
That is a conditional statement, not a biconditional. Which is why for every single successful innovator, we can often find thousands of nutcases, inventing floating shoes, helmet mounted rifles, and Forth (just kidding, mostly). Therefore, an unconventional person should be especially careful that they do not find themselves on the wrong side of the thin line between genius and insanity.
That is a conditional statement, not a biconditional. Which is why for every single successful innovator, we can often find thousands of nutcases, inventing floating shoes, helmet mounted rifles, and Forth (just kidding, mostly). Therefore, an unconventional person should be especially careful that they do not find themselves on the wrong side of the thin line between genius and insanity.
Forth is number 1 on my list of greatest languages -- and I've been coding Lisp full time for years. If you want to have your mind blown, take a look at what Moore has done recently with Color Forth. It's tricky to piece together the story from bits on the internet, but the resulting language is enlightened in a way no other languages can claim.
This ties in well with ( http://www.yosefk.com/blog/my-history-with-forth-stack-machi... )
"What can be said of this? If, in order to 'really' enter a programming culture, I need to both 'be solving a significant real problem in the real world' and exercising 'the freedom to change the language, the compiler, the OS or even the hardware design', then there are very few options for entering this culture indeed. The requirement for 'real world work' is almost by definition incompatible with 'the freedom to change the language, the compiler, the OS and the hardware design'."
"What can be said of this? If, in order to 'really' enter a programming culture, I need to both 'be solving a significant real problem in the real world' and exercising 'the freedom to change the language, the compiler, the OS or even the hardware design', then there are very few options for entering this culture indeed. The requirement for 'real world work' is almost by definition incompatible with 'the freedom to change the language, the compiler, the OS and the hardware design'."
Only part way through that article you linked to, but it is fascinating. The part that includes Moore's rant against local variables crystallized an idea that had been bubbling around in my subconscious for some time. Very often the only reason I find I am writing a local variable is to make an expression with several sub-parts easier to see the sub-expression values in gdb. This wouldn't be quite so necessary if the debugger had a syntax for saying "list the sub expressions of this statement" and for saying "print sub-expression #N". For instance, with the debugger stopped just before a line like x = foo(bar(a,b), blat(c,d)); "list subs" -> "0: bar(a,b), 0.1: a, 0.2: b, 1: blat(c,d), 1.1: c, 2.1: d." then just typing something like sub0 would print the value of bar(a,b)."
Of course lacking such a facility I just end up scattering extra locals even though I end up feeling like the output is rather archaic. a = ...; b = ...; c = f(a,b);
Of course lacking such a facility I just end up scattering extra locals even though I end up feeling like the output is rather archaic. a = ...; b = ...; c = f(a,b);
> All innovators are unconventional.
The real problem is that it's hard to distinguish "best" practices from conventional practices. Innovators are necessarily unconventional, but the ones we care about are also necessarily demonstrably good (in some sense). So there is this claim from the innovator side that "unconventional" is not a valid argument.
This claim only makes sense in the presence of an "unconventional" judgment -- i.e. that this creative work is necessarily deficient simply because it is unconventional.
Now, of course, no critic would put it so bluntly. But I think it illustrates the underlying dynamic.
The real problem is that it's hard to distinguish "best" practices from conventional practices. Innovators are necessarily unconventional, but the ones we care about are also necessarily demonstrably good (in some sense). So there is this claim from the innovator side that "unconventional" is not a valid argument.
This claim only makes sense in the presence of an "unconventional" judgment -- i.e. that this creative work is necessarily deficient simply because it is unconventional.
Now, of course, no critic would put it so bluntly. But I think it illustrates the underlying dynamic.
It is also a tautology.
Yeah, another post praising the greatness of Lisp without any backup in actual evidence. Dude, you'd be infinitely more convincing having actually produced something great with Lisp or at least showing how its unique features can be used for this purpose. "Lisp is great, but the masses just don't get it" doesn't cut it.
I missed the "Lisp is great, but the masses just don't get it" bit so thanks for the interpretation. Isn't a short blog comment (take it or leave it) enough for you? The author's got to produce a thesis with full supporting documentation on a point you suppose he's making? This is straw dog stuff. I wonder why it gets you hot under the collar?
Out of curiosity, what kind of evidence would you accept?
The concept of the personal GUI workstation, the object-oriented database, and many other things you take for granted were introduced on Lisp Machines. Does this fact convince you of anything?
The concept of the personal GUI workstation, the object-oriented database, and many other things you take for granted were introduced on Lisp Machines. Does this fact convince you of anything?
A video of a replica of a Newcomen steam engine, together with the braindead, repetitive job of the operator: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyLXEK5YwUY
Imagine doing that all day long, every day.
And here's a version which has been automated with some strings: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ca0Ea_oPto8 and apparently got its inventor immediately fired.
Imagine doing that all day long, every day.
And here's a version which has been automated with some strings: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ca0Ea_oPto8 and apparently got its inventor immediately fired.
[deleted]
cranky, pissed off, lisp, hacker. right or wrong, cool.
Personally, for all the problems and terrible design decisions that we're all living with, I find a whole lot of what fellow programmers do amazing and inspirational. A lot of the stuff they produce with so-called broken and unproductive tools are amazing products that provide a lot of productivity and enjoyment for a wide range of people. I've also found that almost any sufficiently popular language or environment has its share of brilliant, original thinkers trying to build new tools to make things easier and better for others. These are people who should be thanked and celebrated for their contributions.
I looked further into the author's blog posts. The dominant themes are bilious and scornful attacks on other's work, or lamentations about the sad state of software today. He claims to be producing a Lisp-based operating system. Curious to see his progress, I checked the source repository, to find that it only contains a README indignantly protesting the the treatment he's received from others.
This guy's combination of arrogance, scorn, and complete lack of demonstrated competence makes him oddly fascinating. I wonder what kind of social factors in our industry produce people like this, and how we can work to counteract them.