Deep underwater, submariners are likely unaware of pandemic(latimes.com)
latimes.com
Deep underwater, submariners are likely unaware of pandemic
https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2020-03-30/blissful-ignorance-submariners-likely-unaware-of-pandemic
15 comments
> I don’t think 100% news saturation is good for us either.
I agree. In Italy basically all the news are just about the coronavirus and nothing else, plus a lot of sensationalism ("we're all gonna die" style), and the Big Brother style press conference every day with the reports of daily numbers of cases, deaths, and recoveries.
It's so aggravating and anxiety inducing that I only check a news roundup in the morning and I shut myself away from any other news sources. Not ideal, but at this point it's the only way to make sure I'm not consumed by the constant stream of bad news.
I agree. In Italy basically all the news are just about the coronavirus and nothing else, plus a lot of sensationalism ("we're all gonna die" style), and the Big Brother style press conference every day with the reports of daily numbers of cases, deaths, and recoveries.
It's so aggravating and anxiety inducing that I only check a news roundup in the morning and I shut myself away from any other news sources. Not ideal, but at this point it's the only way to make sure I'm not consumed by the constant stream of bad news.
> It's so aggravating and anxiety inducing that I only check a news roundup in the morning and I shut myself away from any other news sources. Not ideal, but at this point it's the only way to make sure I'm not consumed by the constant stream of bad news.
I have attempted to stay away from news media since around 2018. Around last November, I decided to make a complete cut and stop consuming anything "news related" from secondary sources like podcasts, reddit comment threads etc. I expected that I'd live in ignorance, but I'd gain some peace of mind.
This change has had a far greater impact on me than what I had originally assumed. First surprise is that I still find out everything that's going on in the world that's relevant to me or people I care about. Second, I feel like I turned sober for the first time in years - I've had soo much creativity and mental energy that bloomed out of nowhere within a few days after I stopped punishing my thought process with news from the world.
There are a few things I have discovered in the past few months. First, if you put in effort to find very high quality information about an event that you hear about, you will usually find something from primary sources that are orders of magnitude better than anything that's published on popular media. Second, there really aren't that many new things happening in the world all the time - 30 mins of effort a week is usually sufficient to be on top of everything going on.
There are a ton of people who will convince you that it's your moral duty to follow news as closely as possible. It's totally not worth it.
I have attempted to stay away from news media since around 2018. Around last November, I decided to make a complete cut and stop consuming anything "news related" from secondary sources like podcasts, reddit comment threads etc. I expected that I'd live in ignorance, but I'd gain some peace of mind.
This change has had a far greater impact on me than what I had originally assumed. First surprise is that I still find out everything that's going on in the world that's relevant to me or people I care about. Second, I feel like I turned sober for the first time in years - I've had soo much creativity and mental energy that bloomed out of nowhere within a few days after I stopped punishing my thought process with news from the world.
There are a few things I have discovered in the past few months. First, if you put in effort to find very high quality information about an event that you hear about, you will usually find something from primary sources that are orders of magnitude better than anything that's published on popular media. Second, there really aren't that many new things happening in the world all the time - 30 mins of effort a week is usually sufficient to be on top of everything going on.
There are a ton of people who will convince you that it's your moral duty to follow news as closely as possible. It's totally not worth it.
This has been my mode of operation for the last couple of years, untill the virus started impacting Australia. Now restrictions etc are changing so quickly that you pretty much need to keep up to date. Got to say it's not doing my mental health any favours.
One thing that has suprised me is the lack of any non-virus news that is around. The virus and it's fallout can't be the only thing happening in the world at the moment! The only non-virus related news I've seen over the last couple of weeks is a couple of local court cases and North Korea firing something into the ocean. Oh and we had a local government election here in Queensland which got about an inch of coverage.
This tells me that most of the normal news we get fed is pretty much non-essential filler.
One thing that has suprised me is the lack of any non-virus news that is around. The virus and it's fallout can't be the only thing happening in the world at the moment! The only non-virus related news I've seen over the last couple of weeks is a couple of local court cases and North Korea firing something into the ocean. Oh and we had a local government election here in Queensland which got about an inch of coverage.
This tells me that most of the normal news we get fed is pretty much non-essential filler.
This. I’ve been doing the same for over 10 years. No news papers, and TV, and it’s been wonderful.
I’ve regressed a bit with news subreddits under 30 minutes a day, and will read links from friends, but I’ve found that it’s mostly propaganda.
> There are a ton of people who will convince you that it's your moral duty to follow news as closely as possible. It's totally not worth it.
Most “news” is either PR or propaganda. So is “your duty” to keep consuming it.
Side note: I buy all the Australian newspapers during the Christmas holiday and force myself to go through it, and it’s always a reminder how it’s all a waste of time.
I’ve regressed a bit with news subreddits under 30 minutes a day, and will read links from friends, but I’ve found that it’s mostly propaganda.
> There are a ton of people who will convince you that it's your moral duty to follow news as closely as possible. It's totally not worth it.
Most “news” is either PR or propaganda. So is “your duty” to keep consuming it.
Side note: I buy all the Australian newspapers during the Christmas holiday and force myself to go through it, and it’s always a reminder how it’s all a waste of time.
> stop consuming anything "news related" from secondary sources like podcasts, reddit comment threads etc
And yet you're commenting here, in a news-related comment thread?
And yet you're commenting here, in a news-related comment thread?
I find it interesting that you lumped Reddit with Indie podcasts.
Based on my experience, Reddit is incredibly toxic with a lot of low quality content. You just need a glimpse of /r/worldnews to get a feel for this.
That being said, there are some excellent indie podcasts out there though.
I've just stopped following COVID-19 news entirely, and leave it to family and friends to unavoidably inform me of the latest stats they feel compelled to share. So I learn enough through osmosis without having to read how 911 is overwhelmed in NYC and see pictures of hospitals flooded with people.
There's a limit to well I can self-isolate, and I'm sure I'm already taking every possible precaution. Being more anxious will accomplish nothing.
There's a limit to well I can self-isolate, and I'm sure I'm already taking every possible precaution. Being more anxious will accomplish nothing.
Another option might be to read Wikipedia’s “Current events” page for pandemics situation in your country. It’s relatively concise, factual and up to date.
It’s useful also for non-pandemic times.
It’s useful also for non-pandemic times.
Similar situation in Germany with regards to the news, I believe.
I wish we'd talk more about the effects of the media's reporting style on psychological health. Do we really need headlines and reports about individual deaths every day, live tickers, and an unending amount of notifications and newsletters regarding the same?
For people with anxiety disorders it can be total hell right now (talking from experience), and it's much less because of the virus itself than the reporting.
I wish we'd talk more about the effects of the media's reporting style on psychological health. Do we really need headlines and reports about individual deaths every day, live tickers, and an unending amount of notifications and newsletters regarding the same?
For people with anxiety disorders it can be total hell right now (talking from experience), and it's much less because of the virus itself than the reporting.
It's the perfect case for the news media. Literally every day you can publish breaking news "Cases +X! Deaths +Y!" and it gives you a hit of anxiety so you keep checking and checking.
Same in France. I do not usually watch news but now my family insists on doing so, as if there were any surprising news.
Today I refused to switch on the tv and somehow nothing spectacular happened. I hope we are done with this news nonsense.
Radio is a bit better.
All the best for Italy, we were supposed to be in a week on vacation near Genua :(
We are closely watching you and hope your downtrend is real. All the best, ciao!
Today I refused to switch on the tv and somehow nothing spectacular happened. I hope we are done with this news nonsense.
Radio is a bit better.
All the best for Italy, we were supposed to be in a week on vacation near Genua :(
We are closely watching you and hope your downtrend is real. All the best, ciao!
> We are closely watching you and hope your downtrend is real. All the best, ciao!
Thanks for the kind words. I actually did not even hear about a down trend ...
One point I want to add to what I wrote before: this stream of news can also be detrimental to interpersonal relationships during a long quarantine.
Long-term confinement can already strain some relationships, the news can make things even worse. Another point to avoid talking about it among family members.
Thanks for the kind words. I actually did not even hear about a down trend ...
One point I want to add to what I wrote before: this stream of news can also be detrimental to interpersonal relationships during a long quarantine.
Long-term confinement can already strain some relationships, the news can make things even worse. Another point to avoid talking about it among family members.
I am actually surprised at how well this quarantine is going on for us.
The children are teenagers and they have enough work from school to keep them busy. They also have me handy, so we talk about their work quite often.
They also help with the house more than usual.
If it was not for the food which is a pain in the bottom to get, and the fact that one cannot do sport outside (biking for instance) it would not be bad at all for us (I am talking about our specific case)
It is true that we do not discuss the pandemy itself too much (as there is not much to discuss)
The children are teenagers and they have enough work from school to keep them busy. They also have me handy, so we talk about their work quite often.
They also help with the house more than usual.
If it was not for the food which is a pain in the bottom to get, and the fact that one cannot do sport outside (biking for instance) it would not be bad at all for us (I am talking about our specific case)
It is true that we do not discuss the pandemy itself too much (as there is not much to discuss)
Your description reminded me of the British WW1 postcards [1] where, if you were admitted to hospital the messages allowed were "hope to be discharged soon" and "am going on well".
[1] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:BRITISH_FIELD_SERVIC...
[1] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:BRITISH_FIELD_SERVIC...
Well, you were allowed to cross that out.
> there’s nothing about this pandemic that’s remotely useful to you
I've been a little overloaded by metric in tech for the past several years to the point that I sometimes call out metrics getting added as unactionable. There's a cult of metric collection because we can, not because there's anything meaningful there.
I've been a little overloaded by metric in tech for the past several years to the point that I sometimes call out metrics getting added as unactionable. There's a cult of metric collection because we can, not because there's anything meaningful there.
> there’s nothing about this pandemic that’s remotely useful to you
Surely it's a planning consideration for the commanders? I think they get world news so that they can inform their decision if they need to decide for example where they go if they can't contact London.
Surely it's a planning consideration for the commanders? I think they get world news so that they can inform their decision if they need to decide for example where they go if they can't contact London.
The rather quaint processes used by the Royal Navy apparently include checking whether BBC Radio 4 is transmitting:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letters_of_last_resort
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letters_of_last_resort
I guess keeping broadcasting Radio 4 no matter what has very significant priority in Her Majesty's Government's crisis plans. You can use Radio 4 to reach the whole country if needed, with I guess just a few generators.
Just for anyone wondering why Radio 4 in particular - it’s the only BBC station we have on Longwave (198? kHz), so you get over-the-horizon service from a single tower. (which is why carries the shipping forecast, and why it’s of particular interest to submarines in the Atlantic too).
So using it as a “sign of civilization” (one of multiple) sounds quaint, but with a perfectly logical reason behind it.
So using it as a “sign of civilization” (one of multiple) sounds quaint, but with a perfectly logical reason behind it.
Are BBC Radio 4 transmissions cryptographically signed? How do you know whether it's the real BBC radio 4 and not something that the enemy's spoofing?
They could be cryptographically signed as the BBC Radio 4 LW carrier is phase modulated with a datastream that can be used for remotely controlling electrical equipment [0].
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_teleswitch
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_teleswitch
You can't spoof Radio 4. There are too many tells. The news readers are rarely changed and you know their voices. Those voices are also very English and you can't take English schooling and BBC training overnight. Plus the airwaves. To take out 198 longwave and substitute something else is not so easy.
Except that the British succeeded in doing such spoofing in WWII.[1]
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspidistra_(transmitter)
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspidistra_(transmitter)
That's talking about spoofing someone reading out numbers. You just need a German speaker for that.
The person you're replying to is talking about the impossibility of faking a day of idiomatic BBC Radio 4 broadcasting, and I'm inclined to agree that the individual personalities and programmes are so incredibly ingrained in most British minds and the details are so subtle that you'd have no chance of being convincing.
The person you're replying to is talking about the impossibility of faking a day of idiomatic BBC Radio 4 broadcasting, and I'm inclined to agree that the individual personalities and programmes are so incredibly ingrained in most British minds and the details are so subtle that you'd have no chance of being convincing.
Sefton Delmer, who was behind that, went much further. Listen to this old BBC radio show about it. [1] Start at 30:55 for the intrusion operation. They did replace German radio stations in-place as they shut down due to air raid warnings.
[1] https://ia800108.us.archive.org/9/items/OperationAspidistra/...
[1] https://ia800108.us.archive.org/9/items/OperationAspidistra/...
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I am sure deepfakes for radio is even easier to achieve than other media. Not only is it audio-only, but it is also low fidelity audio.
The funny thing is that The Archers is extremely likely to go off the air in the very near future (they can't record any at the moment and they only have a couple of weeks in the can). Since the availability of The Archers is the key sign of life for the UK we better all pray that the Boomer on duty changes shift soon! (or this whole radio 4 thing is utter bollocks)
Why aren't they recording at home? My understanding was the many of the characters record individually anyway. At least the child actors definitely did, so it must be possible to act and edit together this way. I think cartoons all record individually.
You only need a half-decent microphone.
You could do it on a bad microphone if you wanted!
The Archers is a timeless part of the background noise in many family kitchens in the UK. Seems a shame not to fight through this little piece of calm for normal families in this time of crisis.
You only need a half-decent microphone.
You could do it on a bad microphone if you wanted!
The Archers is a timeless part of the background noise in many family kitchens in the UK. Seems a shame not to fight through this little piece of calm for normal families in this time of crisis.
They're building out home recording capacity right now, and will be recording from home (on a slightly reduced schedule) shortly: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-52084510
"amongst other checks"
If BBC4 goes down, but you're still able to call London on a satellite phone, you don't go nuking Russia. If you have a half dozen different signs of nuclear war and BBC4 is down, it's a point in the "well shit" direction.
If BBC4 goes down, but you're still able to call London on a satellite phone, you don't go nuking Russia. If you have a half dozen different signs of nuclear war and BBC4 is down, it's a point in the "well shit" direction.
That's it - they don't depend on the BBC. It's more a troubleshooting step. If the light in the kitchen doesn't work, but the one in the living room does, there's something wrong with the kitchen light. If everything's off, there's something wrong with your electricity.
So if Northwood goes silent, but the cricket is uninterupted, there's probably something wrong with Northwood. If everything's gone, there's probably something wrong with your radio. But if Northwood's gone, the BBC's gone, but VOA is still up .. you start wondering if something's wrong with the UK.
(For example. I'm not privy to anything the rest of us aren't. But it's clear that it's an item on a checklist that happens to have some novelty value, rather than being our "systema perimetr".)
So if Northwood goes silent, but the cricket is uninterupted, there's probably something wrong with Northwood. If everything's gone, there's probably something wrong with your radio. But if Northwood's gone, the BBC's gone, but VOA is still up .. you start wondering if something's wrong with the UK.
(For example. I'm not privy to anything the rest of us aren't. But it's clear that it's an item on a checklist that happens to have some novelty value, rather than being our "systema perimetr".)
The article notes that the commanders are likely aware.
How? The ULW comms network was decommissioned years ago! How would they know?!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communication_with_submarines
Radio and satellite comms on the periscopes, among other things.
Radio and satellite comms on the periscopes, among other things.
Satellites, and surfacing to periscope depth (or enough to otherwise deploy an antenna) at predetermined, randomized and secret intervals?
The satellites don't have to know when the subs are going to come to antenna depth to receive messages. They just broadcast them continuously, and subs receive them when they decide to.
An always broadcasting satellite may give away position.
People know where satellites are anyway - you can literally see them in the sky. You can't hide them!
Obviously tracking an individual satellite would not provide you with any information, so I'm not sure why anyone would expect my comment to mean that.
The major countries all have thousands of merchant vessels traveling in every major shipping lane all over the world. My thinking is navies would be worried about these ships being equipped with sensors that analyze satellite signals looking for what could be intended for submarine communication. Eaves droppers wouldn't even need to break the encryption of the signal, they'd only need to be aware of a signal is being broadcast to only a specific region of the the ocean and that bears other attributes associated with military communication.
The major countries all have thousands of merchant vessels traveling in every major shipping lane all over the world. My thinking is navies would be worried about these ships being equipped with sensors that analyze satellite signals looking for what could be intended for submarine communication. Eaves droppers wouldn't even need to break the encryption of the signal, they'd only need to be aware of a signal is being broadcast to only a specific region of the the ocean and that bears other attributes associated with military communication.
Simple solution: Don't broadcast to a specific region of the ocean. (HQ may not even know exactly where the sub is, so this is probably necessary anyways.)
Or simplest solution: don't broadcast to them at all. Which was the point I was making as to the likely reason they don't do it.
Broadcasting over a larger area reduces the ability of an adversary to infer location from the signal, but increases the likelihood of intercept. That alone might not be terribly useful, but it can be combined with other bits of information and form a more complete picture. For example, if you know when and where the sub was last docked, fleet movements, regional events that are of military interest, and you have a signal with a message you suspect was intended for them, then that's enough bits of information to be useful.
There are trade-offs. If you're required to minimize the the likelihood of discovery at all costs, then it makes sense to never even attempt communication while underway.
Broadcasting over a larger area reduces the ability of an adversary to infer location from the signal, but increases the likelihood of intercept. That alone might not be terribly useful, but it can be combined with other bits of information and form a more complete picture. For example, if you know when and where the sub was last docked, fleet movements, regional events that are of military interest, and you have a signal with a message you suspect was intended for them, then that's enough bits of information to be useful.
There are trade-offs. If you're required to minimize the the likelihood of discovery at all costs, then it makes sense to never even attempt communication while underway.
> you have a signal with a message you suspect was intended for them
That would require you to be able to decrypt the encrypted signal that the satellite is broadcasting. Which you can't.
All these third party observers see is a bunch of digital noise continuously being broadcast by the satellites. They have no way of telling digital noise destined for a particular sub from the rest of the digital noise. So the signals convey no useful information to them.
That would require you to be able to decrypt the encrypted signal that the satellite is broadcasting. Which you can't.
All these third party observers see is a bunch of digital noise continuously being broadcast by the satellites. They have no way of telling digital noise destined for a particular sub from the rest of the digital noise. So the signals convey no useful information to them.
It's common knowledge that we communicate with submarines.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communication_with_submarines
The article confirms this:
> Salles said the situation now will be toughest for any crews that leave harbor in the weeks ahead, because they’ll know they are leaving loved ones in the midst of the pandemic and, possibly, still living in lockdown. The French government has already extended its stay-home orders once, to April 15, and said it could do so again.
> Salles said he believes those crews will get regular coronavirus updates, but won’t be told of any family deaths until they are returning to the l’Ile Longue submarine base, near Brest in Brittany.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communication_with_submarines
The article confirms this:
> Salles said the situation now will be toughest for any crews that leave harbor in the weeks ahead, because they’ll know they are leaving loved ones in the midst of the pandemic and, possibly, still living in lockdown. The French government has already extended its stay-home orders once, to April 15, and said it could do so again.
> Salles said he believes those crews will get regular coronavirus updates, but won’t be told of any family deaths until they are returning to the l’Ile Longue submarine base, near Brest in Brittany.
Of the satellite, not the sub, and that's not an issue.
Risky - home base would have to know, and you know what The Hell's Angels say about secrets...
For no particular reason, I'm imagining a secret code one could use to conceal news that would normally get filtered. Something more subtle than "There's totally NOT a global pandemic right now. Grandma is totally NOT dead. Wink wink."
I’d guess people wouldn’t want this news. At least in the abstract, the policy isn’t absurd.
The test for Huntington’s (a genetic disease that is 100% fatal and usually starts in your 30s or 40s) might be a good analogue. You’d think everyone would want to know (50% chance if one your parents has it). But IIRC, less than 50% get the test.
The test for Huntington’s (a genetic disease that is 100% fatal and usually starts in your 30s or 40s) might be a good analogue. You’d think everyone would want to know (50% chance if one your parents has it). But IIRC, less than 50% get the test.
Surely not allowing any bad news would backfire? If I knew that all bad news was being redacted it'd make me worry about whether or not there was bad news I just wasn't being told about constantly.
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You could always turn off the TV.
Reminder that the nuclear ballistic missile submarines were built for - and continue to be operated for - a war of total annhiliation. Assuming they were submerged when the first strike missiles launched, there would be a period of under an hour before they struck their targets. During that time, the ground based second strike might be launched by the United States, but France and the UK have no ground based nuclear launch capability. Operational depth is usually below radio depth, so there would be no contact until surfacing again, at which point the submarine commanders would have to face the knowledge that most people they ever knew were probably dead and their cities destroyed. They would then have to open their sealed orders and decide if they wanted to carry out another mass murder of civilians as a reprisal, find someone to surrender to, or simply turn the gun on themselves.
To be fair, the subs are not 100% isolated when submerged. I don't know the protocol or time interval between communications, bur there are two systems that at least the US uses to maintain command of then nuclear subs. One is the TACAMO ELF system [1], which transmits radio signals capable of reception at some depth below sea water [1]. A second is the Navy EHF Satellite Support System (NESP) [2] in which a small satellite dish mounted on the periscope is used. I can only speculate on what the operating orders are should a sub not receive communications from one of those after some period of time.
[1]. https://fas.org/man/dod-101/navy/docs/scmp/part07.htm
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/the-deadliest-air...
[2]. https://www.public.navy.mil/subfor/underseawarfaremagazine/I...
[1]. https://fas.org/man/dod-101/navy/docs/scmp/part07.htm
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/the-deadliest-air...
[2]. https://www.public.navy.mil/subfor/underseawarfaremagazine/I...
The UK famously has a formal system for this: the letters of last resort.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letters_of_last_resort
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letters_of_last_resort
> To be fair, the subs are not 100% isolated when submerged.
Obviously - they wouldn't be any use if you couldn't tell them to fire their missiles while they were submerged, would they?
Obviously - they wouldn't be any use if you couldn't tell them to fire their missiles while they were submerged, would they?
the subs don't need to be ready to retaliate immediately to be an effective deterrent. part of the strategic value of nuclear-armed subs is that the opponent can't destroy all of your launching capabilities in a first strike, even if they think they've located all your land-based sites.
real-time communication with subs is probably only necessary to rapidly coordinate a first strike, or to specifically order them not to fire in an ambiguous situation.
real-time communication with subs is probably only necessary to rapidly coordinate a first strike, or to specifically order them not to fire in an ambiguous situation.
In the United States, at least, ballistic missile submarines that never receive an authenticated launch order will not launch their missiles. It's meant to be technologically impossible.
Perhaps someone with more knowledge knows if it's possible to give an authenticated order along the lines of "if you don't hear back from us in an hour, launch all your missiles." I've never heard of such a thing but there are at least two former submariners here on hn, so...
Perhaps someone with more knowledge knows if it's possible to give an authenticated order along the lines of "if you don't hear back from us in an hour, launch all your missiles." I've never heard of such a thing but there are at least two former submariners here on hn, so...
> the subs don't need to be ready to retaliate immediately to be an effective deterrent
They do in the US system! If you don't retaliate immediately then you're dead, and so you can't send the order to fire, so you can't retaliate at all.
In the UK system you don't need to retaliate immediately as authority to fire is delegated to the commander - no magic codes like in the US.
They do in the US system! If you don't retaliate immediately then you're dead, and so you can't send the order to fire, so you can't retaliate at all.
In the UK system you don't need to retaliate immediately as authority to fire is delegated to the commander - no magic codes like in the US.
Some communication is possible...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communication_with_submarine...
The VLF section above that one is also relevant.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communication_with_submarine...
The VLF section above that one is also relevant.
Former US Navy submariner here. This article seems... overblown.
Now I was on fast-attack submarines (versus ballistic missile boats), but we regularly got email roughly every day when at sea. During certain operations, we would even regularly get an abridged NYTimes PDF news summary sent to us. And my grandmother died when I was underway on deployment - I got notified immediately. (Though obviously wasn't able to travel back.)
One important thing is that the IT admins on the boat had various scripts they'd run against all the email sent/received to help ensure that classified information didn't leak out, or troubling information (I think like family deaths?) leak in. But it never felt invasive.
Maybe the French Navy operates very differently than the American Navy, but... I call BS on this article.
Now I was on fast-attack submarines (versus ballistic missile boats), but we regularly got email roughly every day when at sea. During certain operations, we would even regularly get an abridged NYTimes PDF news summary sent to us. And my grandmother died when I was underway on deployment - I got notified immediately. (Though obviously wasn't able to travel back.)
One important thing is that the IT admins on the boat had various scripts they'd run against all the email sent/received to help ensure that classified information didn't leak out, or troubling information (I think like family deaths?) leak in. But it never felt invasive.
Maybe the French Navy operates very differently than the American Navy, but... I call BS on this article.
From what I've heard from people in the French navy, the submariners aboard the ballistic missile boats are nearly fully isolated from the rest of the world, as described in the article. But the French attack subs might be like you describe.
Key point - the variation only applies when a ballistic missile submarine is "on patrol". Which is definitely not the same period of time as when they're out at sea.
When a ballistic missile submarine is NOT on patrol they operate just like a fast-attack submarine.
When a ballistic missile submarine is NOT on patrol they operate just like a fast-attack submarine.
The French ballistic submarines do work as described (but the attack submarines don't).
Nobody inside but the captain and the second in command know where they are.
Source : was in the French navy 2005-2007. I got to see them leave and enter through the straight near Brest. They do it surfaced as apparently the nuclear drive is hot enough to be detectable in the straight, so there is no point on doing it underwater. Take this last tidbit with a grain of salt because the sailor that told me was not a submariner himself.
Nobody inside but the captain and the second in command know where they are.
Source : was in the French navy 2005-2007. I got to see them leave and enter through the straight near Brest. They do it surfaced as apparently the nuclear drive is hot enough to be detectable in the straight, so there is no point on doing it underwater. Take this last tidbit with a grain of salt because the sailor that told me was not a submariner himself.
Couple things - they're surfaced in the straight near Brest not because of the reactor, but because it's too shallow to operate. For example, US East-coast submarines have to transit for hours on the surface to get to the dive point because of the continental shelf. On the US West coast (Hawaii, San Diego), they can pretty much dive shortly after leaving port.
More people than the Commanding Officer and Executive Officer would know their position, though. Whoever is the French equivalent of Officer of the Deck and the on-duty navigator would need to know their position. But yeah, there are times/situations where the position of the boat is MUCH more closely held - and that may be all the time on French ballistic missile submarines.
More people than the Commanding Officer and Executive Officer would know their position, though. Whoever is the French equivalent of Officer of the Deck and the on-duty navigator would need to know their position. But yeah, there are times/situations where the position of the boat is MUCH more closely held - and that may be all the time on French ballistic missile submarines.
Interesting related note about Brest (which I bet you know, but throwing it in for the benefit of the thread): in WW2, once our anti-submarine capability got up to speed, transiting the continental shelf to or from Brest was one of the most dangerous times for a u-boat. Diesel subs were really only mobile on the surface, and were easily spotted from the air. Over the shallow continental shelf there wasn’t enough depth to escape once spotted.
>More people than the Commanding Officer and Executive Officer would know their position, though. Whoever is the French equivalent of Officer of the Deck and the on-duty navigator would need to know their position
Was gonna say, how the fuck does your navigator work without knowing where he is?
Was gonna say, how the fuck does your navigator work without knowing where he is?
I think it’s more attack boats operating very differently to bombers. Attack boats essentially operate like surface ships with tactical advantages. Bombers operate like minuteman silos with mechanical complications.
Ballistic submarines operate entirely different than fast attack submarines. The article is consistent from my understanding of how UK and Russian ballistic submarines operate.
My experience was the total opposite of yours, as a former fast attack submariner. Don't know if things have gotten more strict or more lax, but my experience is now about 5 years outdated.
Things that didn't happen in "my reality" include the Ferguson race riots, San Bernadino shooting, the shooting at the heavy metal concert in France (?), the Mediterranean immigration crisis, and Trump becoming the Republican front runner. We were on pre-deployment work ups and then deployment. We were lucky to get a batch of sports scores.
I guess it depends on the mission and the command's digression.
Things that didn't happen in "my reality" include the Ferguson race riots, San Bernadino shooting, the shooting at the heavy metal concert in France (?), the Mediterranean immigration crisis, and Trump becoming the Republican front runner. We were on pre-deployment work ups and then deployment. We were lucky to get a batch of sports scores.
I guess it depends on the mission and the command's digression.
Oh, yeah, that's a good point. My experience is also fairly old, but I vaguely remember picking up enough info during port visits, occasional NYTimes digests (when we had bandwidth to grab them), etc. that I didn't feel really out of touch. But given how much news happens every damn day lately, sailors definitely aren't getting that.
When I was a kid and would go off on boy scout camping trips of 1–2 weeks, I always imagined returning from the trips to discover some big important thing had happened while we were cut off from civilization. It never had. It'll be strange coming to the surface from this mission.
-I have found that the news cycle (for anything but the largest of events) is so short that several times when I've worked offshore, something happened back home - some celebrity died, some place burned down &c - but by the time I get back home, it is old news. Hence I am blissfully unaware until the topic comes up, perhaps months later. "Oh, so that is why Wenche Foss hasn't been in the news lately..."
I was in basic training when hurricane Katrina hit. I remember the drill instructors asking if anyone was from the Louisiana or surrounding states and they got to make a special call home. Not having any connnections there myself I didn’t realize it was way worse than a typical hurricane until over a month after it happened.
Not active actively learning about the tragedy as it unfolded made learning about it later feel very disconnected. Sort of like hearing about a destructive event from history rather than a current event. I’m sure, though, this experience was very different for those who had some connections to the region and were more personally impacted by the aftermath.
Not active actively learning about the tragedy as it unfolded made learning about it later feel very disconnected. Sort of like hearing about a destructive event from history rather than a current event. I’m sure, though, this experience was very different for those who had some connections to the region and were more personally impacted by the aftermath.
That reminds me of the excellent novel Earth Abides
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_Abides
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_Abides
What struck me most with this book was the rats!
Most humans die due to a virus and cities are left 99% empty. There reaches a point where all the rats flee the city (having eaten all the food they can) and arrive in endless waves at the protagonist's home.
Most humans die due to a virus and cities are left 99% empty. There reaches a point where all the rats flee the city (having eaten all the food they can) and arrive in endless waves at the protagonist's home.
I was backpacking on 9/11. I did not hear the news until 9/12. Someone had made the effort to hike out to our camp and share the news (a day late), since one of us had a father who worked in the Pentagon. We stayed out and didn't return until several days later.
The same thing happened to me! My brother and I left on a 5-day backpacking trip on the 10th. I did not learn about the attacks until the 13th (another hiker came in and told us). We thought he was probably lying, but hiked out early to check. On our way out, we passed another party and asked them. They had not heard about it either. I remember a woman saying "it sounds like someone has been pulling your leg!"
We do that often when we drive up the Dempster Highway into the Arctic Circle. No Cell, no radio, just a couple of weeks exploring the wilderness. One of the massive perks to living the Yukon for sure.
I personally need that kind of "off time" from the constant connectivity, and I thoroughly enjoy it.
Photos here if anyone is interested http://theroadchoseme.com/the-dempster-highway-fall
http://theroadchoseme.com/the-dempster-highway
I personally need that kind of "off time" from the constant connectivity, and I thoroughly enjoy it.
Photos here if anyone is interested http://theroadchoseme.com/the-dempster-highway-fall
http://theroadchoseme.com/the-dempster-highway
There were people kayaking the Columbia river through the Grand Canyon for 25 days heading into when everything shutdown. They had the same thoughts as you and thought the people telling them at the end was a joke.
That would be the Colorado river. I did a trip like that two summers ago (on rafts rather than kayaks), and there's (essentially) no communication with the outside world. I did think about how I would react if there were some major world event, but I can only imagine what it feels like for them.
I can't recall if it was a friend of a friend or something I read online, but I vaguely remember an anecdote from someone who was out camping without contact on 9/11. I cannot imagine coming back home after that.
I remember a similar feeling as a kid.
As an adult I've been taking week long cruises where I force myself to almost entirely disconnect. They've been "well" timed the last few years that world seems stranger (and probably worse) almost every time I return, and I'm not sure I'd recommend that sort of strange to kid me.
One year a lot of staff at my employer (including myself) were laid off and returned to a lot of recruiter emails. Another a close relative was deeply sick. Last year included the drama of returning to hectic airports due to the 737 MAX crisis. This year we were the last ship out before Quarantine and the last ship back, FLL was even more of a mess than after the 737 MAX crisis because it was still full of spring breakers and people who had expected to leave on cruise ships with now canceled vacation plans, few places to stay, and a lot of new unplanned headaches.
We had some warning: they added temperature checks prior to departure, and we were on High levels of handwashing and sanitizing, reminiscent (if not worse) than the one year we sailed during the middle of the cruise ship Noravirus panic or the couple years of increased Zika concern. But still, you don't expect things to escalate in a week anywhere nearly as quick as they did. Not all of us take the excuse to entirely disconnect so we weren't entirely isolated from news like a submarine might be either, but even the difference between reading random NYT headlines versus your personal FB timeline is huge these days.
As an adult I've been taking week long cruises where I force myself to almost entirely disconnect. They've been "well" timed the last few years that world seems stranger (and probably worse) almost every time I return, and I'm not sure I'd recommend that sort of strange to kid me.
One year a lot of staff at my employer (including myself) were laid off and returned to a lot of recruiter emails. Another a close relative was deeply sick. Last year included the drama of returning to hectic airports due to the 737 MAX crisis. This year we were the last ship out before Quarantine and the last ship back, FLL was even more of a mess than after the 737 MAX crisis because it was still full of spring breakers and people who had expected to leave on cruise ships with now canceled vacation plans, few places to stay, and a lot of new unplanned headaches.
We had some warning: they added temperature checks prior to departure, and we were on High levels of handwashing and sanitizing, reminiscent (if not worse) than the one year we sailed during the middle of the cruise ship Noravirus panic or the couple years of increased Zika concern. But still, you don't expect things to escalate in a week anywhere nearly as quick as they did. Not all of us take the excuse to entirely disconnect so we weren't entirely isolated from news like a submarine might be either, but even the difference between reading random NYT headlines versus your personal FB timeline is huge these days.
Not exactly the same thing, but when I was in boy scouts I attended a massive jamboree in Florida with (I think) at least thousands of other scouts.
Some friends and I went on a long hike, over an earthen dike and back into the woods for the day, well out of site of the main camp.
Late afternoon coming back, we started seeing smoke from the general direction of the camp. Cresting the dike we saw a huge grass/brush fire ripping through the heart of the camp and scouts and leaders running around like ants, moving tents and vehicles, and trying to beat the fire out with towels. It did no good.
Turns out someone had been playing with their campfire, it got into some dry grass, and with a high wind took off extremely fast, running right through the camp and out into the trees. We missed it all but the finale. The others at our camp had already moved our stuff to safety.
(off topic I know but the event was pretty dramatic)
Some friends and I went on a long hike, over an earthen dike and back into the woods for the day, well out of site of the main camp.
Late afternoon coming back, we started seeing smoke from the general direction of the camp. Cresting the dike we saw a huge grass/brush fire ripping through the heart of the camp and scouts and leaders running around like ants, moving tents and vehicles, and trying to beat the fire out with towels. It did no good.
Turns out someone had been playing with their campfire, it got into some dry grass, and with a high wind took off extremely fast, running right through the camp and out into the trees. We missed it all but the finale. The others at our camp had already moved our stuff to safety.
(off topic I know but the event was pretty dramatic)
There was an article a couple weeks ago about a group that went on a rafting trip and experienced just this. The guy scheduled to pick them up tried telling them about it on the ride home, but no one believed him until they saw it on the news.
I'd bet that there's usually at least a reporting of "the latest sports scores", etc, to keep people somewhat entertained with the world above.
I'd think that the staff would question "all sports are cancelled, everywhere" without follow-up questions. UNLESS someone is just making up scores for an imaginary league that's being played.
That'd be an elegant solution ... and a FASCINATING story to uncover someday (or write up, as fiction)
I'd think that the staff would question "all sports are cancelled, everywhere" without follow-up questions. UNLESS someone is just making up scores for an imaginary league that's being played.
That'd be an elegant solution ... and a FASCINATING story to uncover someday (or write up, as fiction)
> making up scores for an imaginary league that's being played.
Real sports might not work this way, but there is an imaginary sport whose virus-immune atheletes continue to compete even now. Jelle's Marble Runs [1] is a Youtube channel that hosts marble races in Olympic or Fomula One fashion, complete with TV-style animations and commentary.
It's all for fun, of course, but it is an interesting look at sports without sports, in a sense.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYJdpnjuSWVOLgGT9fIzL0g
Real sports might not work this way, but there is an imaginary sport whose virus-immune atheletes continue to compete even now. Jelle's Marble Runs [1] is a Youtube channel that hosts marble races in Olympic or Fomula One fashion, complete with TV-style animations and commentary.
It's all for fun, of course, but it is an interesting look at sports without sports, in a sense.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYJdpnjuSWVOLgGT9fIzL0g
Similar to this: The Diecast Racing League!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUEDZmOCqa0
(not affiliated)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUEDZmOCqa0
(not affiliated)
Reminds me of the film Good Bye, Lenin. A kid has to trick his mom when she comes out of a coma to believe that East Germany still exists.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIjSaHUKD5I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIjSaHUKD5I
You may have described the precise reason that kind of news is not reported.
Given that it appears at least 2 of the United States's aircraft carriers [1] have confirmed cases aboard, I'm sure every military has been in touch with their silent service folks, if just the captains at a minimum.
While subs sometimes run silent, at least the United States ones still receive communication while doing so via VLF and even ELF. ELF at a few characters per minute can still communicate enough to have them come up just enough to to be optimal for VLF and receive whatever info. I think informing the ships about a highly contagious virus would probably rank up there with very important information.
I'm no military expert but if I had a bunch of guys in subs with finite supplies I might want to communicate "hey, maybe implement mild rationing because when you guys come home we might send you right back out after we send heavily sanitized stores out to you that you shouldn't open for a week or so.
- [1] https://thediplomat.com/2020/03/covid-19-cases-reported-on-b...
While subs sometimes run silent, at least the United States ones still receive communication while doing so via VLF and even ELF. ELF at a few characters per minute can still communicate enough to have them come up just enough to to be optimal for VLF and receive whatever info. I think informing the ships about a highly contagious virus would probably rank up there with very important information.
I'm no military expert but if I had a bunch of guys in subs with finite supplies I might want to communicate "hey, maybe implement mild rationing because when you guys come home we might send you right back out after we send heavily sanitized stores out to you that you shouldn't open for a week or so.
- [1] https://thediplomat.com/2020/03/covid-19-cases-reported-on-b...
I cannot imagine what it must be like to live in a submarine for months at a time, even without being greeted by a pandemic upon return.
A buddy of mine headed out to Alaska to do the full 1000 Mile Iditarod Trail Invitational on a bicycle before this all really kicked off. The world she came back to is really, really different: https://salsacycles.com/culture/an_interview_with_jill_marti...
Probably like what you're likely feeling now - quarantine. Just with less bad news, less natural light, and more people in your house.
The lack of natural light seems like it would really, really mess with me. Maybe it's possible to prepare for that with certain training, I don't know.
I'm lucky enough to have a backyard, in which I've been spending a lot of time lately.
I'm lucky enough to have a backyard, in which I've been spending a lot of time lately.
I didn't have much trouble adapting to underway conditions. But then I've always been somewhat introverted and love hunching over a desk doing projects. Underway was just a bit tighter spaces, flourescent only. Like knowing you were going into a really weirdly laid out half industrial half office space and you just weren't leaving for a while.
(I was lucky enough to be in a rating where I was on periscope every now and again, so I had that bit of extra 'view'.)
(I was lucky enough to be in a rating where I was on periscope every now and again, so I had that bit of extra 'view'.)
Sunburns. Human skin generates Vitamin D out of UV damages to it, which plays roles in hair and nails but also in maintaining healthy thoughts somehow.
Apparently kids in arctic regions receive “sunbathing” sessions in a dark room with UV lamps for this reason. I’ve been thinking to replicate it but haven’t been able to find much technicalities in it...
Apparently kids in arctic regions receive “sunbathing” sessions in a dark room with UV lamps for this reason. I’ve been thinking to replicate it but haven’t been able to find much technicalities in it...
Are you talking about Seasonal Affective Disorder (SAD) lamps? I think most "full spectrum" bulbs will work, they sell them at hardware stores.
Look for a solid Vit D3 K2 combo and you should be golden.
Although, be careful with your Vitamin K intake if you're highly sedentary. Increases the risk of blood clotting problems.
It's not a problem if you're active though.
It's not a problem if you're active though.
Probably a lot worse than our average quarantine: no view of the outside, no fresh food, no way to 'escape' temporarily by going for groceries. Working on and off shifts sharing your sleeping bunk with another shipmate, little possibility for leasure, no Netflix, PS4, home cooking or spending more quality time with your family.
Actually submarine fleet gets a bit better food than the rest. Toward the end of a long underway, things can get a bit odd, but I was never truly disappointed in the food.
You find other escapes - I bought my own laptop at the Exchange and taught myself Linux from the install CD up on one deployment.
If you're senior enough, you get your own rack. Perks :)
And once you're off watch, there's routine to do but after that you have your own music, games if you like, movie nights (voting gets weird sometimes), read, we even made up a Stellar Conquest type game once, played out on paper, one turn per watch rotation.
The family thing could be a big deal but I was already pretty estranged from my very small number of relatives, so wasn't much for me.
YMMV.
You find other escapes - I bought my own laptop at the Exchange and taught myself Linux from the install CD up on one deployment.
If you're senior enough, you get your own rack. Perks :)
And once you're off watch, there's routine to do but after that you have your own music, games if you like, movie nights (voting gets weird sometimes), read, we even made up a Stellar Conquest type game once, played out on paper, one turn per watch rotation.
The family thing could be a big deal but I was already pretty estranged from my very small number of relatives, so wasn't much for me.
YMMV.
> PS4
I am pretty sure they have video games in a submarine these days.
I am pretty sure they have video games in a submarine these days.
It sounds rather peaceful to me.
It's smelly. Check out submariners' recall of the amine smell that permeates even their skin. They're experimenting with a nanomaterial that might replace the amine.
https://www.quora.com/Does-a-Navy-submarine-have-a-distincti...
https://paulamrozowicz.com/2015/02/10/submarine-life-what-i-...
https://www.quora.com/Does-a-Navy-submarine-have-a-distincti...
https://paulamrozowicz.com/2015/02/10/submarine-life-what-i-...
Twenty years later, I still remember that exact smell, so yeah. But I can't say it bothered me any more than walking into other people's houses to their distinct combination of odor. Just very different and something you get used to.
They are likely on alert 24/7, training when nothing happens, ... so not sure about peaceful; but to get a taste of peaceful, throw away your TV and everything will be much more fine
I think it's only up to around three months - 90 days - it isn't like a full-length tour.
Boomers, yes. Fast attack boats are never really underway that long, but they deploy away from home port for 4 - 6 months at a time. I did five deployments in a 54 month sea tour. (My time away from home port was 68+%)
Just in: a Dutch submarine had to abort it's mission because part of the crew has been tested positive for corona.
https://nos.nl/liveblog/2328775-deel-bemanning-nederlandse-o...
https://nos.nl/liveblog/2328775-deel-bemanning-nederlandse-o...
To get an idea how it would be to "wake up" to all this I've found clips from Big Brother pretty interesting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6vwVUYmv7I
I even think there are some countries where they still don't know anything (Brazil?).
I even think there are some countries where they still don't know anything (Brazil?).
My cellphone broke last summer I was paddling on lake Inari. Immediate panic. There is no-one I need to have contact with. The housing co-op will take of the apartment and there is nothing of real value in there. My other inventments transactions were blocked until september. But I just could not stand it. After a day or two I paddled to Ivalo.
The point is that I have lived up to 6 months in wilderness without any human contact. In Kodiak 1996 I occasionally listened to BBC shortwave, but nothing of interest ever happened so I soon forgot about it.
There is some fundamental issue that needs to be fixed. Maybe they should have sign on the moon, "NOTHING HAS HAPPENED, just take it easy".
The point is that I have lived up to 6 months in wilderness without any human contact. In Kodiak 1996 I occasionally listened to BBC shortwave, but nothing of interest ever happened so I soon forgot about it.
There is some fundamental issue that needs to be fixed. Maybe they should have sign on the moon, "NOTHING HAS HAPPENED, just take it easy".
Anybody have a non-paywall version?
Isn't that by design? IIRC the nuclear submarines go dark for a long time and are trained for a scenario in which their home country has been nuked into obliteration. Or plans what they need to do if there is no contact with the home front anymore (that is, fire the nukes). This may no longer be the case though, I'm just going with bits I may have seen on the TV from the cold war.
But yeah, tldr they are trained to find a nuclear apocalypse when they resurface.
But yeah, tldr they are trained to find a nuclear apocalypse when they resurface.
> Salles himself was at sea in a sub when his father died, but the news was kept from him until he had finished his 60-day mission.
Goodness -- I already thought 'submariner' might be the world's worst job and this clinches it.
Goodness -- I already thought 'submariner' might be the world's worst job and this clinches it.
My father worked aboard one, and we got to send a weekly “familygram” message - a short, telegram-style message where you put one word in each box until you’re out of boxes, and then mail it off to the Navy. You weren’t allowed to even hint at any bad news - not even that the dog had died - and we were told that any bad news would be removed from the message. And receiving a too-short, redacted, or no familygram at all would probably be more worrying than not being told at all.
The reality of it is that if you’re half-way through a 10-week patrol, there’s nothing about this pandemic that’s remotely useful to you. Nothing you can do, nothing you can say, no way you can benefit from this information. It’s 100% useless mental overhead.
And to be honest, I think I’m a little jealous right now. I don’t think 100% news saturation is good for us either.